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XY UU Viability Ranking Thread
- Thread starter Limitless
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May I asked how snorlax moves up? Snorlax is threatening, but can get killed before it can get any boosts by some common physical attackers in the tier
252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Snorlax: 510-603 (97.3 - 115%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Close Combat vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Snorlax: 594-702 (113.3 - 133.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Zygarde Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Snorlax: 255-301 (48.6 - 57.4%) -- 47.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Or it can get phased out by something else. Sure, most of this tier is specially oriented, but lots of key physical attackers can really damage snorlax. However, I do realize it's bulk even without a +1, but I still don't get how snorlax moved to A out of the blue. I may just be overlooking someone, but could someone clarify why it would move up.
252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Snorlax: 510-603 (97.3 - 115%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Close Combat vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Snorlax: 594-702 (113.3 - 133.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Zygarde Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Snorlax: 255-301 (48.6 - 57.4%) -- 47.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Or it can get phased out by something else. Sure, most of this tier is specially oriented, but lots of key physical attackers can really damage snorlax. However, I do realize it's bulk even without a +1, but I still don't get how snorlax moved to A out of the blue. I may just be overlooking someone, but could someone clarify why it would move up.
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Snorlax is a great user of Assault Vest, which boosts its already great special bulk to a formidable level. With its good power and bulk, Snorlax can get a lot of switch-in opportunities against special attackers, and proceed to hit pretty hard. I know that the Fighting-types wreck Snorlax, but there's a reason why teammates exist, and you can use other Pokemon to handle those (I personally like Cofagrigus in this regard since it can also set up TR for Snorlax to thrive in). Snorlax was an incredible Pokemon last gen and Assault Vest has made it somewhat better, with its ability to check a lot of special attackers and hit hard, I don't see why it shouldn't be in A+.
I might make another nom here later, may do so when I get my thoughts together.
I might make another nom here later, may do so when I get my thoughts together.
Thank you for the clarification. It makes sense now to me.
Is there any input on Mega Houndoom? It has a nice 115 base speed, 140(?) special attack, increased base defenses, Nasty Plot, and a nuking ability under the sun, but it is hazards weak, has no recovery, and some scarf mons and Crawdaunt (just picking a couple things) just totally screw it over. I have never used Mega Houndoom before, but just looking at its stats and potential movesets on paper, I think it could be anywhere between a C and a B.
Edit: Did not see that mega Houndoom was banned. My bad
Edit: Did not see that mega Houndoom was banned. My bad
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It got banned and it was s rank before
It was actually A+ rank and was close to dropping further.
That was a joke man:] Against Aggron, that was showing that it always walls, I never said it would ever get to +6 and it won't. And its STABs aren't the best, but they're good, they're only resisted by 3 Pokemon in S-A, don't undersell it. And I did say the type was horrible defensively.
pokemonisfun
Banned deucer.
Can we move up Zygarde to S rank? Dragon Dance sets are good and SubCoil sets are great. It has saved me an obscenely large number of times with Extremespeed which works well on both sets.
Bug/Flying is still largely redundant is the problem, albeit with Flying hitting more relevant types and far less resisted, resisted or not doesn't change the fact that neither STAB necessarily help in providing coverage over resists which is what it means to have good STAB. In any event if you wanted to make calcs it would have just been largely more relevant to stick to bulky mons of the tier rather than trying to add everything, there are enough examples on this thread and even this page alone as to how they go about this.
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Zygarde got just moved to A+ rank, and it has a few flaws keeping it from S.
Like Yellow Cheese said, Zygarde has a couple of problems, namely really poor coverage moves (Stone Edge, Extremespeed are pretty much all you get outside of STABs, and it has to use either Outrage (Florges bait) or Dragon Tail (weak)), base 95 speed (aka outsped by common Scarfers), and the general need to set up due to average base 100 attack stat. It also has a lot of effective counters in UU, such as Slowbro and Hippowdon.
Don't get me wrong, I think Zygarde is amazing and can run a lot of effective sets, but its flaws require support that makes it not A+ rank.
May I make a nomination for Hitmonlee to B+ rank? Now that hawlucha is out of the tier, hitmonlee is a very effective unburden attacker, getting good chip damage with a fake out or some other move, than proceeding to outspeed a lot of the tier with the the loss of a normal gem or some other items In addition to dealing heavy damage with a STAB HJK, It's fast enough to outspeed and OHKO nasty flying threats in the tier with stone edge, namely Tornadus and Thundurus therian. However, there are still more heavy hitting physical attackers that have more versatility and can deal with a lot more threats, thus earning its spot at b+.
Zygarde is really close to S rank imo. The main thing I see holding it back is the fact that it has to use Outrage or Dragon Tail for a Dragon STAB. If it had Dragon Claw, then the DD sets would have an option to keep from being Florges bait. And when Florges is as common as it is, this is a pretty crippling issue. Otherwise, Zygarde has everything to be an S rank threat. Sure, a lot of common Scarfers are outspeeding it, but to my knowledge, there isn't a single common one that can actually OHKO DD Zygarde. And they are definitely failing against the Coil sets since most Scarfers in UU are physical-based. Pretty sure SubDD is a thing. ChestoRest DD (or Coil) should be a thing. SubCoil is a thing. RestTalk + Dragon Tail is a thing. It's a lot more versatile than you might think, despite its somewhat disappointing physical movepool. Honestly, if you feel that the issue with Florges can be covered well without a ton of support, then I'd say it should be S rank. Problem is, it's pretty much a requirement to have something to beat or weaken Florges, and while that isn't exactly a bad thing with stuff like Nidoking/Queen, Roserade, and Victini to choose from, it is required support and most S-rank threats don't need much in the way of required support to do their thing. It's definitely A+ and I can see why some would argue for it to be S-rank.
Not sure about Hitmonlee. The problem is that it has no way to reliably boost its Attack stat while also getting an Unburden boost, unlike Hawlucha who had SD and the space to run it. Lee can't use HJK in the presence of Ghost-types or anything that can threaten Protect whereas Hawlucha could fall back on Acrobatics if it needed a safe STAB to use. There's also the Florges problem. It completely stops Hitmonlee. Any physically defensive Florges can tank at least 2 hits, maybe even 3 or 4, and just blast (heh) it with Moonblast. Obviously, Lee can use Close Combat to ease some of the HJK problems, but that only makes it more susceptible to anything that can tank a hit and retaliate (bulky Ghosts, Slowbro, Mew, Florges... probably more that I'm not thinking of) I'd say B- or C+ rank is better for Lee since Hawlucha leaving definitely gives it more of a niche, but it still has some pretty serious problems going against it.
Not sure about Hitmonlee. The problem is that it has no way to reliably boost its Attack stat while also getting an Unburden boost, unlike Hawlucha who had SD and the space to run it. Lee can't use HJK in the presence of Ghost-types or anything that can threaten Protect whereas Hawlucha could fall back on Acrobatics if it needed a safe STAB to use. There's also the Florges problem. It completely stops Hitmonlee. Any physically defensive Florges can tank at least 2 hits, maybe even 3 or 4, and just blast (heh) it with Moonblast. Obviously, Lee can use Close Combat to ease some of the HJK problems, but that only makes it more susceptible to anything that can tank a hit and retaliate (bulky Ghosts, Slowbro, Mew, Florges... probably more that I'm not thinking of) I'd say B- or C+ rank is better for Lee since Hawlucha leaving definitely gives it more of a niche, but it still has some pretty serious problems going against it.
I've been trying to get him into B since forever, but now that Hawlucha is gone he can finally do things.
Hitmonlee can use liechi berry/weakness policy+Endure. At +2 Reversal from 1HP Hitmonlee 2HKOs physically defensive Slowbro. I used it alot during gen 5 RU and a little bit in the beginning of this gens UU. It sounds gimmicky, but if you remove enemy priority, you might destroy the opponent. Hitmonlee also gets the always nice Knock off to deal with most Ghosts/Psychic types
( +2 252+ Atk Hitmonlee Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mew: 436-514 (107.9 - 127.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO ,
+2 252+ Atk Hitmonlee Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cofagrigus: 316-374 (98.7 - 116.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO )
Specially defensive SubCoil, by far Zygarde's best set, can frequently beat Florges. Zygarde's +1 Earthquake 2HKOs with even a bit of prior damage. Alternatively, Zygarde can run a few Attack EVs to ensure the 2HKO after SR, while obvious protects can be taken advantage of with Coil. Zygarde can take several Moonblasts:
0 SpA Florges Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: 168-200 (40 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Florges comes in with a bit of prior damage. You use Coil as Florges comes in. Quake as Florges uses Wish. Coil as she uses Protect, then 2HKO. Alternatively, if she uses Moonblast immediately after coming in, just 2HKO with Earthquake. This is assuming fully physically defensive Florges.
It's not foolproof, but I can say that having played hundreds of matches with SubCoil Zygarde, I've beaten the majority of Florges that I've encountered without resorting to the help of a teammate. Even if you did need a teammate to handle Florges, there are so many teammates that absolutely laugh at Florges that it's hardly a restriction on teambuilding. SubCoil Zygarde does well with hazards, but it can even sweep many teams without them. The team support requirements are minimal.
Zygarde should be S rank.
0 SpA Florges Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: 168-200 (40 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Florges comes in with a bit of prior damage. You use Coil as Florges comes in. Quake as Florges uses Wish. Coil as she uses Protect, then 2HKO. Alternatively, if she uses Moonblast immediately after coming in, just 2HKO with Earthquake. This is assuming fully physically defensive Florges.
It's not foolproof, but I can say that having played hundreds of matches with SubCoil Zygarde, I've beaten the majority of Florges that I've encountered without resorting to the help of a teammate. Even if you did need a teammate to handle Florges, there are so many teammates that absolutely laugh at Florges that it's hardly a restriction on teambuilding. SubCoil Zygarde does well with hazards, but it can even sweep many teams without them. The team support requirements are minimal.
Zygarde should be S rank.
Yeah, Zygarde has counters, but they're all bulky waters with Ice Beam, and he can always force them out with Dragon Tail. So sure, he has a lot of trouble wearing Slowbro down. But if every time Slowbro comes in, you force it out with Dragon Tail, you can force his teammates to take a lot of hazard damage. Same procedure with the other Bulky waters, and since they lack Regenerator, they can be worn down quckly.
Banded Zygarde is also rather efficient at wallbreaking... and CB E-speed is always nice to have.
pokemonisfun
Banned deucer.
Yeah first off I still think Zygarde should be S and yes
If Florges is your Zygarde counter you are seriously using a flawed team or Zygarde weak team unless you have other tactics to deal with it (like half your team uses Ice moves, Ice Punch Metagross is a great way to at least badly damage and lure in Zygarde). That is because if you switch Florges in on Zygarde and it uses DD and it will always 2HKO unless you get really really lucky with Protect and you will never OHKO bar a critical hit. SO basically you lose. Always. No discussion.
Specially defensive Zygarde as other people mentioned already has at least a good chance to win against Florges if you play it right and manage to not attack on Protect turns constantly.
I'm skeptical on CB Zygarde because it can't kill the big physical walls like Slowbro and Hippowdon and Chesnaught even with a free turn, the SubCoil set and even the DD set looks like a much better wallbreaker.
Speaking of which there are lots of Subcoil sets although the one I use eschews Dragon Tail in favor of Extremespeed because I also run a lot of attack and it's always nice to have decently powered priority on an offensive team so I don't get randomly swept by Shell Smash Sashed Cloyste (which is perfectly viable imo).
I suppose you don't need Dragon STAB on DD Zygarde if you want Stone Edge instead but as terrible as Outrage is Stone Edge in general is probably an even more terrible move. At least you can rough up the random Togetics I see floating around on the ladder. As far as I can tell you don't lose that much coverage apart from notably opposing Zygarde, Flygon (a biggish one but it will probably outspeed you anyways at +1 by Scarf) and sort of Kyurem (it has to be on really high health to take an EQ after SR).
As for Hitmonlee I don't really know where it should end up but it does nicely against very offensive teams lacking priority. It has swept me more than once before with different Unburden sets.
What is the point of that last sentence? Every single Pokemon has flaws, I would say every single Pokemon has a huge number of flaws otherwise we would just use the "flawless" Pokemon.
Also the definition is a little ambiguous to me. This might be because I don't know English grammar too well. But please explain to me, anyone, does this definition mean an S Pokemon must be able to either sweep or wall AND support or does it mean S Pokemon must be able to either sweep or wall OR give support.
And seriously why do we Pokemon players insist on making up convoluted terms to describe Pokemon? By this I mean you're technically supporting your team if you're using Earthquake because you're killing (or at least trying to kill) something that could potentially hurt your team. So is Earthquake a support move? When on did the word "opportunity cost" become the equivalent of "free turns", could someone explain that concept?
I don't know if any of you can answer some all or any of my questions but this is all very confusing to me, so sorry, I cannot understand just exactly how this thread is even supposed to work.
I did see it was moved to A+ so I was hoping I could kind of ride the momentum all the way up to S.
If Florges is your Zygarde counter you are seriously using a flawed team or Zygarde weak team unless you have other tactics to deal with it (like half your team uses Ice moves, Ice Punch Metagross is a great way to at least badly damage and lure in Zygarde). That is because if you switch Florges in on Zygarde and it uses DD and it will always 2HKO unless you get really really lucky with Protect and you will never OHKO bar a critical hit. SO basically you lose. Always. No discussion.
Specially defensive Zygarde as other people mentioned already has at least a good chance to win against Florges if you play it right and manage to not attack on Protect turns constantly.
I'm skeptical on CB Zygarde because it can't kill the big physical walls like Slowbro and Hippowdon and Chesnaught even with a free turn, the SubCoil set and even the DD set looks like a much better wallbreaker.
Speaking of which there are lots of Subcoil sets although the one I use eschews Dragon Tail in favor of Extremespeed because I also run a lot of attack and it's always nice to have decently powered priority on an offensive team so I don't get randomly swept by Shell Smash Sashed Cloyste (which is perfectly viable imo).
I suppose you don't need Dragon STAB on DD Zygarde if you want Stone Edge instead but as terrible as Outrage is Stone Edge in general is probably an even more terrible move. At least you can rough up the random Togetics I see floating around on the ladder. As far as I can tell you don't lose that much coverage apart from notably opposing Zygarde, Flygon (a biggish one but it will probably outspeed you anyways at +1 by Scarf) and sort of Kyurem (it has to be on really high health to take an EQ after SR).
As for Hitmonlee I don't really know where it should end up but it does nicely against very offensive teams lacking priority. It has swept me more than once before with different Unburden sets.
What on earth is meant by "significant portions"? Does that mean more than half? The word significant can also mean detectable so I guess it could mean more than zero.
What is the point of that last sentence? Every single Pokemon has flaws, I would say every single Pokemon has a huge number of flaws otherwise we would just use the "flawless" Pokemon.
Also the definition is a little ambiguous to me. This might be because I don't know English grammar too well. But please explain to me, anyone, does this definition mean an S Pokemon must be able to either sweep or wall AND support or does it mean S Pokemon must be able to either sweep or wall OR give support.
And seriously why do we Pokemon players insist on making up convoluted terms to describe Pokemon? By this I mean you're technically supporting your team if you're using Earthquake because you're killing (or at least trying to kill) something that could potentially hurt your team. So is Earthquake a support move? When on did the word "opportunity cost" become the equivalent of "free turns", could someone explain that concept?
I don't know if any of you can answer some all or any of my questions but this is all very confusing to me, so sorry, I cannot understand just exactly how this thread is even supposed to work.
Moved Snorlax down to A rank.
Moved Porygon2 down to B rank.
Removed Thundurus-T from rankings.
Added Houndoom (Mega) to S rank.
Moved Kyurem down to A rank.
Moved Honchkrow up to A- rank.
Moved Trevenant down to B+ rank.
Moved Ampharos (Mega) up to A- rank.
Moved Porygon2 down to B rank.
Removed Thundurus-T from rankings.
Added Houndoom (Mega) to S rank.
Moved Kyurem down to A rank.
Moved Honchkrow up to A- rank.
Moved Trevenant down to B+ rank.
Moved Ampharos (Mega) up to A- rank.
Kyurem moves down *sigh*. But I think it is the right rank for it. Pressure isn't exactly the best ability out there. I've used it in some games and there are instances where I wish it had Teravolt or a Mold Breaker like ability. Bronzong walls the Sub + 3 attacks easily.
Right, but when Bronzong's sitting at number 166 (weighted stats), that's not a big deal.
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