Greninja [QC 2/2] [GP 0/2]

Greninja

Greninja is an insanely fun Pokemon to use, with access to protean and a wide array of tricks for its move set. He isn't the strongest Pokemon but with some technique he can run circles around alot of the VGC competition.

Overview
########

Pros:
--Very fast Pokémon that will out speed a lot of today's threats.
--Has access to protean, one of the best abilities in game for the offensive game.
--Great move pool to abuse with protean for keeping the opponent guessing.


Cons:
--Not much in the way of damage without help.
--Loses to priority.
--No bulk to speak of at all, you will die to anything in one hit usually.


For We Are Greninja!
########
name: Special attacker set
move 1: Hydro Pump
move 2: Ice Beam
move 3 :Dark Pulse
move 4: Protect
ability: Protean
item: Life Orb/ Focus Sash
EV's: 4 HP, 252 Special Attack, 252 Speed,
nature: Timid

Moves
========
--Hydro pump is your preferred move of choice for water. If you do not like the accuracy loss, you can take Scald with the lack of power. Surf is the least preferred, as it may have more power but because it hits both targets surf suffers a power loss, something Greninja can't afford.
--Ice beam is the go to ice move, with blizzard also being a valid move if used in a hail team. This will handle all those mean nasty dragons that may harm the rest of your team if unchecked.
--Dark pulse is your neutral move of choice, with Greninja's speed and high flinch chance you can often beat a Pokémon with luck and a dark pulse flinch.
--The last move is up to choice, Grass Knot takes down a lot of annoying heavy Pokémon like Tyranitar or bulky water Pokémon like Gyarados or Vaporeon. U-Turn is an eject move that lets you get the tiniest amount of damage and Extrasensory being a decent damage psychic move to quickly gain the psychic type or to check a fighting type

Set Details
========

--EVs are self explanatory, maximum Speed and maximum Special Attack for the most oomph, the 4 EVs leftover can go anywhere.
--With Timid you will be out speeding most of the cast with a base 122 Speed
--As for items, the Life Orb is the better of the 3 options for a big damage boost for a 10% life drop, but with Greninja you want to make the game as short as possible. Focus Sash will protect for 1 hit with greninja allowing it to have a chance with its low defences. The Expert Belt can take Life Orb's place if you have the Life Orb on another Pokémon, it will still give you a nice damage boost, but on the neutral game you will feel the hurt of not having the boost.



Usage Tips
========

--This Pokémon is really about super effective hits.
--Greninja has a wide range of coverage moves most of which can be used to your advantage, with protean you can take this to the next level as a guessing game and use them to create immunities (dark pulse turns dark to be immune to psychic type moves, etc)
--In conjunction with the last point, you can trade hydro pump for a different move for coverage, this isn't recommended as you lose he power of hydro pump, but you can fit Greninja in as a full coverage Pokemon

Team Options
========

--You want a damage Pokémon to be beside Greninja more often than not. And any Greninja's best friend involves Mega Kangaskhan, Mega Mawile, or Choice Band Talonflame. This Pokémon fits into any Meta team built on damage, and with excellent cover options, it is always welcome.
--With his wide move pool, Greninja can cover almost any beginner's team, Greninja is an amazing Pokemon to start learning competitive with.
--Greninja can fit in a Hail team quite nicely with access to Blizzard, which with Protean becomes an Ice type and immune to Hail, as well as Blizzard never missing in Hail.
--In terms of team placement just remember, while Greninja can fill a niche on any team, but without super effective hits Greninja is average at best.

Other Options
########


--You can take Mat Block if you want, it's a great move in doubles, just remember it doesn't have priority, so a Bullet Punch, Extreme Speed, or Gale Wings Brave Bird will all get around it. However, due to the fact it protects your partner it is worth more than a mention. You can only use Mat Block on the first turn Greninja is on the battlefield, be it starting or switching in. this means it can be used multiple times on the switch in turns like Fake Out, so you can go that way with a slow Volt Switch or U-Turn from a pokemon on your team.
--Taunt is a valid move but can cost you a turn that you don't want to use, only have Taunt if you don't have another Pokémon that can learn Taunt, but it is always valid and can be a great choice. Just remember a Greninja that is not attacking is an open Greninja so have something to protect it.
--Hidden Power Fire or Grass is the last viable move for slot 4, Hidden Power Grass is better than grass knot because of Rotom-W popularity
--Other than that aim for super effective hits, and a teammate that can finish a more bulky Pokémon off that Greninja will not kill in one hit.
--The Expert Belt can take Life Orb's place if you have the Life Orb on another Pokémon, it will still give you a nice damage boost, but on the neutral game you will feel the hurt of not having the boost.

Checks & Counters
########

--Rotom-W can pretty much take everything Greninja can throw at it and use Greninja's lack of bulk to pretty much, kill it off, in the same respect you are going to out speed it and hope to god for a Dark Pulse flinch. It is going to take at least two hits so Life Orb will take you down considerably just for this Pokémon. Grass knot will only be base power 20 so it will not do much.
--Choice Band Talonflame with Gale Wings is always going to K.O. Greninja in one hit with Brave Bird, although if Talonflame does not go for you then it will die to one Hydro Pump.
Focus Sash will counter Talonflame at full health as 1 hydro pump will kill Talonflame
--Mega Kangaskhan will usually devastate Greninja, since it can will survive an attack or 2. and has the attack to damage greninja heavily and kill in 1 turn due to parental bond. although greninja can get in some nice chip damage on it
--Mega Mawile hard counters due to typing and nice defenses, Play Rough will K.O in 1 hit even if not super effective
--Fighting types are pretty solid against Greninja, like Conkeldurr, Scrafty, and even Lucario. They can usually take a hit and retaliate back with a KO or threaten with priority.
--Drain abilities like Storm Drain although rare are something to watch out for, if you suspect something has Storm Drain don't even think about using Hydro Pump, it will only help your opponent out. the only time to use Hydro Pump in this situation is to scout the ability out
 
Last edited:

Martin

A monoid in the category of endofunctors
is a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
you need to seriously sort out the formatting on this if you want QC to give this a serious look at.

Fix it using the "New Format Template" section of this thread
 
I'm sorry, could you please elaborate? I am still new to all this, i have made this using the template format in that topic, i just deleted the second move set as i wanted to make a clear and concise analysis for my first go. Its probably not till tomorrow till i can edit due to not owning a PC, but any suggestions i get i will immediately implement while at work tomorrow, (on mobile which makes editing not impossible, but insanely hard)

I apologize if I am a bit dimwitted at first but i want to start writing as a hobby for things like this as it will help my game a lot :)
 
Last edited:
Just wondering if I could get a few comments before I put it up for QC, I want to get this right even if greninja is easy to do,

I've deleted the extra lines for dashes
 

Biosci

Danger!?
is a Tiering Contributoris a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnuswon the 3rd Smogon VGC Tournamentis a Past SCL Champion
Just a few things:

-Take out the Surf, Blizzard slashes and replace the last slot with Protect.
-Mention that Greninja has a plethora of coverage moves to use in Useful tips, but everything you have in Useful tips atm is what is needed to be put into OO.
-Change the item slashes to Life Orb / Focus Sash. Expert Belt is really only OO material tbh
-Timid Cloyster is most certainly not a thing, and you don't need to mention all of those Pokemon as Pokemon that you outspeed. Just say something to make emphasis to the reader that base 122 Speed outpaces a majority of the metagame.
-Rock Slide Greninja is actually kind of neat against Talonflame and Zard-Y, if you can neutralize Talonflame with a Quick Guard or Fake Out for a turn. Or if it decides to Protect in fear of fainting turn 1, you now have that Rock-typing to resist both of its STAB moves.
-Choice Specs Greninja is at least worthy of a mention in OO, it actually does a lot more damage than you would think.
-"--Greninja's best teammates are also heavy checks to him on opposing teams." is incredibly vague, don't say that.
-Talonflame does not counter you if you have a Focus Sash intact.
-Kangaskhan is a shaky counter as if you can get chip damage onto it, Greninja can clean up the rest. And Sucker Punch isn't really threatening because you intially resist it with Dark-typing.
-Fighting types are pretty solid against Greninja, like Conkeldurr, Scrafty, and even Lucario. They can usually take a hit and retaliate back with a KO or threaten with priority.
-Priority in general really sucks for Greninja.

Make changes and I'll take another look later
 

Martin

A monoid in the category of endofunctors
is a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
  • Rename the set "special attacker" and remove "SET NAME" from above the header for the special attacking set.
  • I feel that the first slot should just be Hydro Pump / Surf and the second slot just as Ice Beam.
  • The third slot should be Dark Pulse / Mat Block
  • The fourth slot should be Protect / Hidden Power Grass / Grass Knot
  • Remove Expert Belt and have the items as Life Orb / Focus Sash
  • The EV spread only needs 124 speed with a timid nature to outpace Mienshao and Manectric on the turn it mega evolves to change type and not get hit super effectively
  • The mixed attacking set is very popular ATM. It looks like this:
Mixed Attacker
########
name: Mixed Attacker
move 1: Hydro Pump / Surf
move 2: Ice Beam
move 3: Rock Slide
move 4: Protect / Shadow Sneak / Mat Block
ability: Protean
item: Life Orb
evs: 132 Atk / 252 SpA / 124 Spe
nature: Naive

The EVs aren't perfect, but you get the jist of the set. Rock Slide is the only thing that can OHKO Megazard Y and it is more spammable than Surf and Hydro Pump. The speed EVs let you outpace Mienshao and Manectric on the turn it mega evolves to change type and avaoid a super effective hit on the HJK and/or Volt Switch (respectively). I feel that this should be first, but the positioning of it will need to be double checked with QC first.
 
Also surf sucks for greninja in vgc doubles, his job is to take out single opponents, he doesn't have the power to dual ko pokemon even if super effective usually, it can be useful but targeting is greninjas ally
 

Martin

A monoid in the category of endofunctors
is a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Also surf sucks for greninja in vgc doubles, his job is to take out single opponents, he doesn't have the power to dual ko pokemon even if super effective usually, it can be useful but targeting is greninjas ally
just out of interest, if surf "sucks" like you said it does, why did you include it on your version of the set?
 
As I said it does have it's uses but it's more for if you're using it for other things which means it should be other options, I've been wanting to change this but I can't ATM, found out last night my laptop is at work and I can't do huge changes on my phone as it's touch screen is off, with no calibration so typing is insanely testing...
 
Imo, Greninja should only have Hydro Pump listed for the Water STAB. I do not really see Scald being too useful and Im not really sure about Surf. Definitely would not have it slashed on the main set but I guess it could go in OO.
 
hi, sorry, been in hospital for pretty much the entire week, nothing serious just the hospital wanted to keep me in, so ill get back to this as soon as possible, sorry for taking a long time with this

Continuing tomorrow
 
Last edited:
hmmm, i know this i just forgot to write it :P thanks, I have to remember not everyone has the patience to read about moves on the game as it is very vague.

I am going to put this up for QC, i think if any more editing gets done by listening to people it has the danger of being convoluted even if it isn't up to my standards :S

with everything that's happened lately I just want this over with so I can make the next article more up to scratch, sorry guys :(

Going to leave out rock slide because I know nothing on it, I could use your EV spread Gamer Boy but I like to research things before I act like I know something on a subject. and with my laptop being works own I cant use to even talk about it on things like IRC. I only get on smogon because of a proxy I set up, its too slow for something like IRC
 
Last edited:

Audiosurfer

I'd rather be sleeping
is a Top Tutor Alumnusis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
format this skeleton better Jowyatriedes so it's more compliant w/ C&C guidelines. You can look to some skeletons in this section that have already been finished for guidance, or go to the set of guidelines listed in the section. Also remove mention of a physical attacker set in Other Options. Otherwise looks good enough, I'll stamp this.

QC 1/2
 
I'll have to do this Tuesday, with the health problems which led to loss of job my only editing access is at the library and it's Easter weekend...
 

Martin

A monoid in the category of endofunctors
is a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
After thinking about what you said about it liking targeting, I have just thought that Storm Drain users on either side, if there are any, could be effective checks, but I am not 100% certain if any usable pokemon with it are available. Just to keep in mind until I edit this post.
Edit: none availabe in VGC 2014. What a bummer.
 
Last edited:
Greninja has a variety of coverage moves, a couple that you haven't mentioned. Extrasensory can be slashed somewhere on the main set to hit fighting types and poison types that can wall its coverage moves. It is quite helpful in dealing with Venusaur, after you've somehow negated the speed boost from chlorophyll. Choice Specs/Scarf with U-turn can probably be mentioned in OO, to out power or out speed the opponent.
 
Last edited:
Greninja has a variety of coverage moves, a couple that you haven't mentioned. Extrasensory can be slashed somewhere on the main set to hit fighting types and poison types that can wall its coverage moves. It is quite helpful in dealing with Venusaur, after you've somehow negated the speed boost from chlorophyll. Grass Knot is a niche move and can be mentioned in OO to hit Rhydon, Rhyperior and heavy 4x weak grass pokemon. Choice Specs/Scarf with U-turn can probably even get its own set to respectively, out power or out speed the opponent, or it could be mentioned in OO.
Rhydon and Rhyperior aren't really relevant Pokemon to begin with, and you also have Hydro Pump to OHKO them. Grass Knot is also outclassed by HP Grass, since the only two Pokemon you'd want to hit with a Grass move (Azumarill, Rotom-W) are light and take little damage from Grass Knot.
 

Martin

A monoid in the category of endofunctors
is a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Greninja has a variety of coverage moves, a couple that you haven't mentioned. Extrasensory can be slashed somewhere on the main set to hit fighting types and poison types that can wall its coverage moves. It is quite helpful in dealing with Venusaur, after you've somehow negated the speed boost from chlorophyll. Grass Knot is a niche move and can be mentioned in OO to hit Rhydon, Rhyperior and heavy 4x weak grass pokemon. Choice Specs/Scarf with U-turn can probably even get its own set to respectively, out power or out speed the opponent, or it could be mentioned in OO.
also, choiced locked greninja is absolutely terrible as its main niche that makes it so good is that it can take advantage of Protean to play mind games.
 
What does this mean (Mat Block)?
" but it can be used multiple times on the switch in turns, so you can go that way with a slow Volt Switch or U-Turn "

It can be used multiple times in a row, but only if used the first turn?

Also has anyone had any success with the move? I feel like there is so much priority running around and that the top threats are already at decent speeds and use Choice Scarfs.
 
What does this mean (Mat Block)?
" but it can be used multiple times on the switch in turns, so you can go that way with a slow Volt Switch or U-Turn "

It can be used multiple times in a row, but only if used the first turn?

Also has anyone had any success with the move? I feel like there is so much priority running around and that the top threats are already at decent speeds and use Choice Scarfs.
Basically, same mechanics as Fake Out: it only works on the 1st turn the user is out, but if you withdraw it, and send it out again, you can use Mat Block again.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top