Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

[Luck O' the Irish]

I was replying to someone who suggested Honchkrow to be removed from the thread alltogether. It goes without explaining that Mega Pinsir, Talonflame and Staraptor all perform better than Honchkrow in certain aspects, hence why they're all ranked much higher than Honchkrow. But D rank is too low for something as threatening as Honchkrow.

I also disagree with Staraptor "outclassing" Honchkrow. The power difference with Reckless is significant, but so is Staraptors lack of good priority (Quick Attack when you're running CB is not good priority). There's also the problem of being locked in due to CB (e.g. does he go out into Heatran and do I Close Combat, or is he going to Slowbro and do I Brave Bird?) Even if you predict right, sure you get the kill (as would Honchkrow) but you're probably going to be facing an appropriate resist or something faster afterwards, while Honchkrow can switch up moves to take out said resist or knock out the faster mon with Sucker Punch. Did I mention that Moxie makes it a lot easier for Honchkrow to stay in because it becomes so insanely powerful? As a revenge killer I'd rather have Honchkrows priority, and as a wallbreaker I'd rather have the ability to switch up moves. As a sweeper I'd definitely prefer Honch's ability to switch up moves, and Moxie allows it to be an effective sweeper. Staraptor can't really sweep that well because base 100 doesn't cut it and it lacks priority if you're locked into let's say Brave Bird or Double Edge. Also Honchkrow can go mixed, which is worth noting in scenarios vs pokemon like Skarmory or Forretress.

In my opinion staraptor doesn't really care about switching moves since it is going to be doing a lot of switching anyway, and it can u-turn out of checks/counters. Sure you have the predictions to worry about, but in my experience using choice scarfed staraptor, all you have to do to inflict massive damage is to choose the move that does the best against the team in general. If i had staraptor in against a mega-venusaur and the opponent also had rotom-w or thunderus-t, each who could tank a brave bird, i will be clicking double-edge and be able to finish them both off in a hit or two, since. If I see skarmory or aegislash, who can take whatever staraptor wants to do, I can u-turn into a better match up. With staraptor the opportunity cost for not being able to change moves is not as great as honchkrow, which couldn't afford to be choice-locked into sucker punch and the reward is that you become that much stronger/faster.

Its speed tier is also good enough to not care about most other scarfers. Garchomp, terrakion, and keldeo (i'm starting to see this more) outspeed it anyway, and staraptor outspeeds excadrill and rotom-w. Scarfed staraptor outspeeds most offensive mons (exception to these scarfers mentioned, i'm probably missing a few, and deo-s) and has the power to destroy those and things that aren't physically bulky. Meanwhile 100 base speed for staraptor running band is enough for it to outspeed the defensive mons. I can't think of any defensive set that outspeeds banded raptor.

Staraptor isn't really intended to sweep anyway, it either wall-breaks with a cb or wrecks offensive teams/cleans up. Also, as Srn mentions above me, staraptor does exceptionally well in the double bird offensive core which is the biggest reason for more more ou usage. Honchkrow can't really say the same in that is has some partner that forms a really effective core with.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

Straight from February's usage stats:
Jolly:4/252/0/0/0/252 21.053% | | Adamant:4/252/0/0/0/252 17.648% | | Adamant:252/252/0/0/4/0 16.992% | | Adamant:32/252/0/0/0/224 3.522% | | Adamant:0/252/0/0/4/252 3.159% | | Adamant:0/252/4/0/0/252 2.767% | | Other 34.859%

Uh, your own stats show here that Adamant is the more popular nature. Discounting "other," 21.1% are running Jolly but 44.1% are running Adamant.

Honchkrow is faster than Bisharp, by one point of base speed, you can't just say "well Bisharps are all going to be Jolly and you absolutely need to run Adamant on Honchkrow, even when they have the same base attack."

I'm not a fan of Honchkrow, but really don't use arguments like this.

 

[Srn]

Uh, your own stats show here that Adamant is the more popular nature. Discounting "other," 21.1% are running Jolly but 44.1% are running Adamant.

Honchkrow is faster than Bisharp, by one point of base speed, you can't just say "well Bisharps are all going to be Jolly and you absolutely need to run Adamant on Honchkrow, even when they have the same base attack."

I'm not a fan of Honchkrow, but really don't use arguments like this.

Yeah, but the safer (and better) play is to sucker punch, because there's obviously a reason for running jolly if 21% of the bisharps out there are jolly. It's overall better just not to risk it. Risking Jolly just isn't worth the firepower honchkrow brings to the team.
And the argument I was trying to make is that Jolly Bisharp is a thing (as demonstrated by the usage stats) and you shouldn't go for superpower.

It's sorta like this, in a 1v1 scenario: if you're a lucario, you have BP (let's pretend mega is still allowed) and you're up against a Kyu-b, is it totally safe to go for CC? Kyu-b could be Hasty, or worse, scarfed. Though Mild is the more common nature, it's still the safest and best play to go for BP because you can't risk the earth power/other move on scarf set because losing Lucario isn't worth it.
Bad example, but I hope I got the point across.

 

[The Legend Waker]

I predict that Mega Blastoise is going to be ranked down (though, I'm not being negative on the topic here).

 

[Salemance]

?

I predict that Mega Blastoise is going to be ranked down (though, I'm not being negative on the topic here).

Can you give a reason why? I would think that it being one of if not the best spinners in the tier was enough, but it has ridiculously good attacks backed by an amazing ability and a respectable 135 sp attack Stat.

Why would the Tortoise drop is all I'm curious of, as I see it being undersold if anything.

 

[The Legend Waker]

?

Can you give a reason why? I would think that it being one of if not the best spinners in the tier was enough, but it has ridiculously good attacks backed by an amazing ability and a respectable 135 sp attack Stat.

Why would the Tortoise drop is all I'm curious of, as I see it being undersold if anything.

Probably because they're not running any clerics/Wish passers in the team to allow it to use its Water Spout at its full potential... But I digress.

 

[Hegemoth]

In my opinion, Hydreigon is too good to be below weezing (not on the list at all), it should be at least C+, although azumarill, sylveon are all hard counters, it still posesses tools to 2hko most of the metagame. With its unique typying it poses a great switch-in into Aegislash, Rotom-W etc. Not top tier, has flaws (speed, Garchomp, cough cough), but definitely C+ or B-

 

[rhinopatomus]

?

Can you give a reason why? I would think that it being one of if not the best spinners in the tier was enough, but it has ridiculously good attacks backed by an amazing ability and a respectable 135 sp attack Stat.

Why would the Tortoise drop is all I'm curious of, as I see it being undersold if anything.

While it is probably the best spinner, taking up the sole mega slot on a team is too costly to have a good spinner, especially when excadrill can do the same and you can use another mega.

 

[Durant]

While it is probably the best spinner, taking up the sole mega slot on a team is too costly to have a good spinner, especially when excadrill can do the same and you can use another mega.

Takes up a mega slot isn't a great argument because everything in your team takes up a slot wheter it's mega or not.

 

[Hidious]

Takes up a mega slot isn't a great argument because everything in your team takes up a slot wheter it's mega or not.

Yes, but taking up a mega slot for a spinner has a greater opportunity cost than taking up a mega slot for a top-notch sweeper you are going to build a team around, especially since there are a lot of other good spinners/defoggers out there.

 

[Rotosect]

Takes up a mega slot isn't a great argument because everything in your team takes up a slot wheter it's mega or not.

Except you have 6 team slots and only one mega slot.
Besides, look how many A+ and S rank mega evolutions we have, compared to the number of good spinners (re: only Excadrill).

 

[Baharoth]

Yeah, but the safer (and better) play is to sucker punch, because there's obviously a reason for running jolly if 21% of the bisharps out there are jolly. It's overall better just not to risk it. Risking Jolly just isn't worth the firepower honchkrow brings to the team.
And the argument I was trying to make is that Jolly Bisharp is a thing (as demonstrated by the usage stats) and you shouldn't go for superpower.

It's sorta like this, in a 1v1 scenario: if you're a lucario, you have BP (let's pretend mega is still allowed) and you're up against a Kyu-b, is it totally safe to go for CC? Kyu-b could be Hasty, or worse, scarfed. Though Mild is the more common nature, it's still the safest and best play to go for BP because you can't risk the earth power/other move on scarf set because losing Lucario isn't worth it.
Bad example, but I hope I got the point across.

The only halfway relevant things you outspeed by using jolly are adamant Gyarados, Dragonite and Mamoswine and Bisharp is losing to the first 2 anyway most of the time (he needs SR up and +2 to beat Dragonite) while Mamoswine has a very good chance (and reason) for running jolly. So yes there are reasons to use jolly but they are rather bad. And always assuming stupid stuff during a battle will harm you far more than it helps, you would have to assume scarf on everything along with the most idiotic but possible movesets and coverage moves, that wont get you anywhere. I got my Aegislash raped by Shadowball Latios once, does that mean Aegislash is a bad switch in? Not realy. So no, the better choice is to assume the standard sets and go for the appropriate move to take them out in this case Superpower. Using Sucker Punch will make you lose far more games than its winning. As repeated here all so often, just because something is used it doesnt mean its good to use it, jolly Bisharp is one of these things.

 

[Durant]

Except you have 6 team slots and only one mega slot.
Besides, look how many A+ and S rank mega evolutions we have, compared to the number of good spinners (re: only Excadrill).

Still Blastoise isn't a waste of a mega slot and being able to beat spinblockers is really useful.

 

[Punchshroom]

Snotjoch and Salemance
The ironic thing is while MegaStoise's support is really beneficial to the meta's top threats (Pinsir and Charizard), they themselves are Mega Evolutions. There is little point in using MegaStoise if you can't use some of its best benefactors alongside it, and since 'Mega sweepers' are usually worth more than 'Mega support', MegaStoise is often shoved aside in favor of Excadrill, who also happens to resist some of its benefactors' most prominent weaknesses. While being second best at a job isn't so bad, being second best at your only job is something else (outclassed), since MegaStoise isn't offering much over most other bulky Waters in the tier.

 

[jbtc10]

While it is probably the best spinner, taking up the sole mega slot on a team is too costly to have a good spinner, especially when excadrill can do the same and you can use another mega.

It is the best spinner, and also a genuinely powerful standalone offensive threat which is surprisingly hard to switch into. The only thing that can actually spinblock him is Spiritomb, who's almost never seen in OU, whereas air balloon Aegislash can annoy Excadrill, who's the most common spinblocker. He's better than Excadrill, and it's not like there's any shortage of non-mega set-up sweepers. Sweepers are a dime a dozen, whereas decent spinners aren't.

And Blastoise has a really big benefit over other bulky waters; big offensive presence and damn good coverage. Nothing appreciates a combination of Scald, Dark Pulse, Aura Sphere, Ice Beam, and so on.

 

[Baharoth]

Still Blastoise isn't a waste of a mega slot and being able to beat spinblockers is really useful.

Problem here is that there are hardly any spinblockers around. Its basicly just Aegislash, and Excadrill can beat Aegi as well so there is little reason to use Mega Blastoise. In a world without defog Mega Blastoise would probably be A or S Rank because of his ability to beat every Spinblocker there is, but because of Defog nobody cares to use Spinblocker anymore leaving Mega Blastoise in the dust.

 

[Punchshroom]

It is the best spinner, and also a genuinely powerful standalone offensive threat which is surprisingly hard to switch into. The only thing that can actually spinblock him is Spiritomb, who's almost never seen in OU, whereas air balloon Aegislash can annoy Excadrill, who's the most common spinblocker. He's better than Excadrill, and it's not like there's any shortage of non-mega set-up sweepers. Sweepers are a dime a dozen, whereas decent spinners aren't.

And Blastoise has a really big benefit over other bulky waters; big offensive presence and damn good coverage. Nothing appreciates a combination of Scald, Dark Pulse, Aura Sphere, Ice Beam, and so on.

While Mega Blastoise technically beats every spinblocker, Excadrill still beats the most common ones, bar Balloon Aegislash. Excadrill is also immune to Electric and Rock, while MegaStoise only resists Ice (which most of its benefactors aren't even weak to!) while sharing a potential Electric weakness. Excadrill can also boast a bulky Spin with Assault Vest or a fast Spin with Choice Scarf; MegaStoise has no such flexibility.

Also, my mistake: MegaStoise never really performed the bulky Water role in the first place, what with its complete lack of recovery. And it doesn't really compare to offensive Water-types like Greninja, Keldeo, and Manaphy in that regard either, since Rapid Spin is the only reason to consider MegaStoise over them. Statwise, it's a mix between bulky Water and offensive Water, but made awkward due to its lack of recovery.

 

[ShootingStarmie]

McMeghan brought this up a similar post in the Victory Road version if this thread (which can be found here), but I really think two Pokemon in particular need to be moved up a rank or two

I support moving Clefable to A+ Rank. Clefable finds itself on nearly every balanced team just because it's so good at everything you expect from it. It's move pool consists of key moves which effectively allow Clefable to easily support the team by acting as a Cleric, and even possibly a win condition for more defensive teams. Unaware is also a great ability right now, allowing Clefable to out right wall Dragon Dance Tyranitar, Dragon Dance Dragonite, and Tail Glow Manaphy. Apart from Unaware, it also has Magic Guard which lets Clefable to fit onto more offensive teams and the Calm Mind set is actually really great against balanced teams right now. All of these things together combine to make for one great Pokemon.

I also support Ferrothorn to at least A- or even A rank. It's typing and solid stats allow Ferrothorn to wall some of the top threats in the metagame, like Azumarill, Aegislash, Gyarados, and Landorus-T. It also really supports teams nicely with access to moves like Leech Seed, Stealth Rock, Spikes, Power Whip, and Gyro Ball. It fits really easily into stall and balanced based teams, and I think B+ really isn't doing Ferrothorn justice.

 

[Baharoth]

I dont know, sure Clef has some very useful toys to play with, especially its abilitys in Unaware and Magic Guard along with its huge move pool but it feels so mediocre overall because of its low stats. Even fully invested its bulk still leaves alot to be desired and hits from the non invested side usually have a good chance of ohkoing, its wishes are rather small and its overall outclassed by Chansey and even Sylveon as a wish passer and cleric. The CM sets can be stopped rather easily by many common pokes, Unaware CM loses to everything with Burn/Toxic and Magic Guard falls to every strong physical attacker. Its usefull because of all those jobs it can do but to me it feels like it doesnt do them good enough to be A+.

Ferro is a similar case, its bulk and typing is nice but its got 2 very common weaknesses and especially fire coverage that can be found very often hurts it alot, it also has no means of recovery aside from leftie/Leechseed stalling with protect and the offensive coverage is horrible. Gyro Ball can hurt at times by there are some many things that resist it or are simply to slow to take much dmg from it and I cant even remember the last time I used Power Whip. I think B+ maybe A- is fine but A is pushing it imo.

 

[Delibird is Amazing]

McMeghan brought this up a similar post in the Victory Road version if this thread (which can be found here), but I really think two Pokemon in particular need to be moved up a rank or two

I support moving Clefable to A+ Rank. Clefable finds itself on nearly every balanced team just because it's so good at everything you expect from it. It's move pool consists of key moves which effectively allow Clefable to easily support the team by acting as a Cleric, and even possibly a win condition for more defensive teams. Unaware is also a great ability right now, allowing Clefable to out right wall Dragon Dance Tyranitar, Dragon Dance Dragonite, and Tail Glow Manaphy. Apart from Unaware, it also has Magic Guard which lets Clefable to fit onto more offensive teams and the Calm Mind set is actually really great against balanced teams right now. All of these things together combine to make for one great Pokemon.

I also support Ferrothorn to at least A- or even A rank. It's typing and solid stats allow Ferrothorn to wall some of the top threats in the metagame, like Azumarill, Aegislash, Gyarados, and Landorus-T. It also really supports teams nicely with access to moves like Leech Seed, Stealth Rock, Spikes, Power Whip, and Gyro Ball. It fits really easily into stall and balanced based teams, and I think B+ really isn't doing Ferrothorn justice.

if ferrothorn rises then chesnaught better rise as well.

best counter there is to crumbler aegislash
resists edgequake and dark type moves
has a considerably higher attack stat (107 vs 94)
has reliable recovery in synthesis, unlike ferro
spiky shield is awesome
roar and taunt are handy to have sometimes

 

[Ninja Charizard]

I think I've said it before but I'm gonna say it again: Mega Manectric has no business being on B. I'm nominating it for A-.

This pokemon is not meant to be a sweeper. It's a pivot. And it's one hell of a pivot. It has a great defensive typing (only weak to ground), good offensive power, Intimidate, ridiculously high speed, one of the strongest volt-turns in the game and wide coverage (Thunderbolt+Flamethrower+HP Ice is pretty good and hurts). It's so fast that it can spam volt switches shamelessly and wear down most specially defensive mon who switch into it without much trouble, and it can easily force a lot of switches.

Battling this thing feels like I'm battling Genesect. Of course it's not as broken as Genesect, but it follows the same principle. Super-strong stab volt-turn, good coverage, keeps coming in and out and dealing damage constantly.

I'm seeing this pokemon more and more on the ladder every day. I bet it will become OU soon. It's not as flashy as the sweepers people like to use, but it's very good.

 

[Hclegend]

if ferrothorn rises then chesnaught better rise as well.

best counter there is to crumbler aegislash
resists edgequake and dark type moves
has a considerably higher attack stat (107 vs 94)
has reliable recovery in synthesis, unlike ferro
spiky shield is awesome
roar and taunt are handy to have sometimes

Okay let's go down these one by one
Have no idea what Crumbler is (Speciaily based?) so no comment (Besides maybe that neither of his STABS hit for SE damage on Aegislash)
EdgeQuake? Who the hell uses that besides Ttar? (Also, Hawlucha is immune from EQ and takes normal from Edge.)
Ferrothorn is a WALL, not a BULKY ATTACKER like Chesty. Most Ferro sets are based more around support and usually have an attacking move so they don't become taunt bait.
Most grass types have Synthesis. Ferro is mainly Steel IIRC (Steel/Grass, not the other way) dumb reasoning? Maybe.
Spiky Shield.... Is kinda meh. It's Rocky Helmet without taking a hit. Sounds good in theory, but Kings Shield cripples your opponent more and allows for better mindgames.
Roar? In OU? Unless you're going for the "spam Roar Until hazards kill everything" strat (Roar has MINUS priority IIRC) it ain't gonna fly. Chestnaught also cannot utilise Taunt like Klefki and Thundurus I who can cripple hazard setters first turn.
Oh, and you forgot the QUAD WEAKNESS TO TALONFLAME AND MPINSIR. Breloom can at least use a Sash and lure TFlame/MPinsir and kill them with Rock Tomb. What does Chesty have, Rollout?
Believe me, Chesty IS good. He was my Kalos starter, but competitively, he's just not suited for the priority infested OU meta :/
TL:DR: Chestnaught has a niche in OU at best, and while Ferrothorn MAY move up, it's for the right reasons (He's been OU since BW, nothing's gonna change that)

 

[Slashari]

Okay let's go down these one by one
Have no idea what Crumbler is (Speciaily based?) so no comment (Besides maybe that neither of his STABS hit for SE damage on Aegislash)
EdgeQuake? Who the hell uses that besides Ttar? (Also, Hawlucha is immune from EQ and takes normal from Edge.)
Ferrothorn is a WALL, not a BULKY ATTACKER like Chesty. Most Ferro sets are based more around support and usually have an attacking move so they don't become taunt bait.
Most grass types have Synthesis. Ferro is mainly Steel IIRC (Steel/Grass, not the other way) dumb reasoning? Maybe.
Spiky Shield.... Is kinda meh. It's Rocky Helmet without taking a hit. Sounds good in theory, but Kings Shield cripples your opponent more and allows for better mindgames.
Roar? In OU? Unless you're going for the "spam Roar Until hazards kill everything" strat (Roar has MINUS priority IIRC) it ain't gonna fly. Chestnaught also cannot utilise Taunt like Klefki and Thundurus I who can cripple hazard setters first turn.
Oh, and you forgot the QUAD WEAKNESS TO TALONFLAME AND MPINSIR. Breloom can at least use a Sash and lure TFlame/MPinsir and kill them with Rock Tomb. What does Chesty have, Rollout?
Believe me, Chesty IS good. He was my Kalos starter, but competitively, he's just not suited for the priority infested OU meta :/
TL:DR: Chestnaught has a niche in OU at best, and while Ferrothorn MAY move up, it's for the right reasons (He's been OU since BW, nothing's gonna change that)

I can't take this seriously when you say things like "EdgeQuake? Who the hell uses that?" and "Roar? In OU?". I also take it you've never faced Banded Ferrothorn? At least have better support for your opinion...

 

[Ninja Charizard]

Crumbler is the mixed Aegislash, with shadow sneak/shadow ball/KS/Sacred Sword or Iron Head, and full EVs on both attacking stats.

Chesnaught walls it. It's immune to shadow ball due to its ability and it takes very low damage from its physical moves, then leech seed does the rest of the work.

Chesnaught is pretty effective on stall teams. It's more of a wall than you think. I agree B- is too little for it.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

I support moving Clefable to A+ Rank. Clefable finds itself on nearly every balanced team just because it's so good at everything you expect from it. It's move pool consists of key moves which effectively allow Clefable to easily support the team by acting as a Cleric, and even possibly a win condition for more defensive teams. Unaware is also a great ability right now, allowing Clefable to out right wall Dragon Dance Tyranitar, Dragon Dance Dragonite, and Tail Glow Manaphy. Apart from Unaware, it also has Magic Guard which lets Clefable to fit onto more offensive teams and the Calm Mind set is actually really great against balanced teams right now. All of these things together combine to make for one great Pokemon.

252+ Atk Mega Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 187-222 (47.4 - 56.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, sandstorm damage, and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 175-207 (44.4 - 52.5%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

I think most Manaphy run Lefties, but still Clefable isn't guaranteed to beat every Tail Glow Manaphy... Mega Tyranitar just destroys you with Stone Edge. I agree on Dragonite though, not much that it can do to Clefable.