Serious Income Inequality

dwarfstar

mindless philosopher
Oh, and the minimum wage is an entry level wage. You aren't supposed to be able to live on it because it's where you're supposed to start, not where you're supposed to finish. Minimum wage is for people with no experience and no developed good work habits. Once you get experience and good work habits, you will naturally get a higher wage. Unless you suck and are completely unemployable by anyone who values competence.

How could any nation possibly afford a "living minimum wage" when you are guaranteed to be able to eat and live indoors whether you are a McDonald's fry cook or a rocket scientist? No one would choose to be a rocket scientist if they could get their staples being a fry cook. People do not expend effort if you give them a meager existence guaranteed, especially if someone else is paying for it and they feel like they are entitled to it just by drawing breath and having a pulse.
I don't have much time right now, so I'll just tackle this bit for the moment.

You say it's fine that the minimum wage isn't enough to cover the bare necessities because it's an entry level wage and you'll supposedly move up out of that bracket quickly, but there are issues with that line of reasoning. Assume for the moment that whatever entity employs a given minimum wage worker consistently provides a 40-hour work week (which is in no way guaranteed) and that diligent work is to be recognized and rewarded in a somewhat timely manner (also by no means guaranteed). What is the worker to do in the intervening period between hiring and when their wage becomes livable? If the necessities aren't covered by the wages from one job, then said worker has a no-win choice. They can do without, which either has a direct negative impact on their health (if they can't afford rent and associated costs, have to eat a nutritionally deficient diet, or can't afford medical coverage) or an indirect health impact and a direct impact on their opportunity to improve their economic situation (if they can't afford a phone, this comes back to bite them pretty fast, and an inability to afford a car can be very problematic in some locales). The other choice is to take a second job, which covers the worker financially in the short term but brings up other problems (for example, sleep deprivation associated with getting more hours eaten up by labor has a detrimental impact on one's health and reduces the quality of one's work, which limits advancement and increases the risk of getting fired from one or both jobs). And this all assumes that the worker in question has no dependents and is not trying to pay for an education; either of those conditions makes it even more difficult to get by on minimum wage. There is a very real possibility - in fact, it's highly probable in a lot of cases - that one of these "entry level" workers will be stuck earning the minimum wage for an indefinite period. Unless and until they advance, the worker is stuck in an untenable economic position. How do you justify this, and if you do not, then how do you propose to fix the problem?

Quick correction regarding the rocket scientist/fry cook example: the assumption that no one will do anything more than they have to do is inherently flawed because it fails to take into account a number of other factors that push people to work at more intellectually demanding pursuits. A worker whose needs are adequately provided for has the opportunity for pursuit of the sciences, the arts, etc., and the chances are pretty damn good that something somewhere will capture the imagination and provide an incentive for study of that subject. (Peter Kropotkin explains this better than I can in The Conquest of Bread.) People are only lazy up to a point; stimulate their passions and their intellectual curiosity, and you'd be surprised what comes of it.
 

Mr.E

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Not to mention there are tiers of living beyond "able to survive." Certainly in the event of minimum required survival being provided for, some people will be willing to exert more effort to have niceties and luxuries not available to the person willing to sit around and sponge (or the mere fry cook).
 

LonelyNess

Makin' PK Love
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"If companies had to pay their employees livable wages then prices would increase too much"

what a fucking joke.
 
Supply side policies don't work and will never work unless you're at full employment.

Otherwise they will only have negative effects.
 

"If companies had to pay their employees livable wages then prices would increase too much"

what a fucking joke.
Thats a good little video. Also the general uproar of the population passing on all the costs back onto the consumer, will be disastrous for any sizeable company.

Lately I've been messing around with a currency converter. The UK minimum wage is £6.31 thats equivalent to $10.58. While the US minimum wage is $7.25 thats £4.32 in my money. How do people live off this? I know of a campaign in Seattle thats demanding $15 which is double the current min wage, to put this in perspective thats £8.94 close to the living wage in London.

OP - You're not the only socialist on this thread. Solidarity to you comrade.
 
Thats a good little video. Also the general uproar of the population passing on all the costs back onto the consumer, will be disastrous for any sizeable company.

Lately I've been messing around with a currency converter. The UK minimum wage is £6.31 thats equivalent to $10.58. While the US minimum wage is $7.25 thats £4.32 in my money. How do people live off this? I know of a campaign in Seattle thats demanding $15 which is double the current min wage, to put this in perspective thats £8.94 close to the living wage in London.

OP - You're not the only socialist on this thread. Solidarity to you comrade.
I only want to say one thing in reference to that - cost of living.

From what I heard, the UK has a cost of living that's a bit higher than the US to the point where I've heard friends pretty much say that something I would pay $x for costs £x over there. I don't know how true it is; the items that I heard were mostly luxury items where the cost to buy them in US is roughly half as much than over in the UK. Whether it is or it isn't truly applicable, I feel cost of living should really take a role in how much we pay people. When you consider it that way, the minimum wage is a bit more equal.

Maybe, the US government should pass a law saying that the minimum wage should scale with the median value of property in the area in order to compensate (at least partly) for the cost of living. I mean a person living in, like, New York has to pay a lot more to live in New York than, say, a person living in Detroit. Though that'll bring up questions like "What defines the area?"
 
I'll be a fool to deny that there aren't differences in cost of living. But the UK min wage is effectively 33% higher then in the US, and having a quick glance at the stats, the range goes from 15%(grocery prices) to 29%(consumer prices inc rent) are higher in the UK then the US. Without reading to far into the subject I'd say the US working poor is slightly worse of then the UK working poor. Labour over here is pulling a cost of living campaign to win the next election (basicly explaining how much its gone up in relation to your wages) and gaining some headway as much i hate to admit it.

The min wage should be set $15 and tied to inflation. Quick and Simple .

The stats
http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_result.jsp?country1=United States&country2=United Kingdom
 
Last edited:

_Tonks_

Guest
I'll be a fool to deny that there aren't differences in cost of living. But the UK min wage is effectively 33% higher then in the US, and having a quick glance at the stats, the range goes from 15%(grocery prices) to 29%(consumer prices inc rent) are higher in the UK then the US. Without to far into the subject I'd say the US working poor is slightly worse of then the UK working poor. Labour over here is pulling a cost of living campaign to win the next election (basicly explaining how much its gone up in relation to your wages) and gaining some headway as much i hate to admit it.

The min wage should be set $15 and tied to inflation. Quick and Simple .

The stats
http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_result.jsp?country1=United States&country2=United Kingdom

^^^ Yeah, this. I really hate how bad the global economy is. We need to start using Galactic Credits.
 

jrrrrrrr

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If you ever wonder why there is so much income inequality in this country, take a drive through the ghetto around 1:00. Grown men standing in groups on the street corner in the middle of the day, scares away the taxpayers who pay for all of their stuff. Then they complain when their schools go to shit and their roads/buildings are in disrepair, leading to even more inequality because every quality person left 10 years ago. It is a death spiral for a community because of the way funds are distributed, and I can see it happening to my hometown currently.... jesus h christ I sound like a grandpa :(

Now go to the other side of the coin, the rich are able to ahem..persuade..government officials to raise taxes on working people in order to raise money for privitized projects. Then they use their new standing to create even more projects...while saying that every current project is essential to the people of the community to justify raising more funds, and you dont hate the community do you?

Do you expect the government to fix this problem? They are propping it up from both sides. More government isn't the answer to this one.

fat The LoudWendle said:
How do people live off this?
You're looking at the federal minimum wage. The actual minimum wage varies greatly state-to-state. It is not expensive at all to live in Wyoming even on a minimum wage. Not to mention the fact that US income is not taxed as heavily as the UK, and we actually produce things in the US so cost of living is generally cheaper.
 
If you want to reduce inequality, tax the rich more and bring in an even lower tax rate for the lowest earners above the mark where you start paying tax (£10,000 here). This is like the 10p tax labour want to bring back.

Basically making the whole tax system more progressive is a great way to reduce inequality.

The problem is though, this like VAT and similar taxes are regressive, because everyone is paying the same percentage, so the poor are hit hardest because they're giving up more of their income.
 

jrrrrrrr

wubwubwub
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so after someone makes 5 million, they leave the country and you never see another dime from them in taxes? Great plan
 
If you ever wonder why there is so much income inequality in this country, take a drive through the ghetto around 1:00. Grown men standing in groups on the street corner in the middle of the day, scares away the taxpayers who pay for all of their stuff. Then they complain when their schools go to shit and their roads/buildings are in disrepair, leading to even more inequality because every quality person left 10 years ago. It is a death spiral for a community because of the way funds are distributed, and I can see it happening to my hometown currently.... jesus h christ I sound like a grandpa :(

Now go to the other side of the coin, the rich are able to ahem..persuade..government officials to raise taxes on working people in order to raise money for privitized projects. Then they use their new standing to create even more projects...while saying that every current project is essential to the people of the community to justify raising more funds, and you dont hate the community do you?

Do you expect the government to fix this problem? They are propping it up from both sides. More government isn't the answer to this one.

You're looking at the federal minimum wage. The actual minimum wage varies greatly state-to-state. It is not expensive at all to live in Wyoming even on a minimum wage. Not to mention the fact that US income is not taxed as heavily as the UK, and we actually produce things in the US so cost of living is generally cheaper.
First off. Why do these people start on this downwards spiral? its not because they standing groups with nothing to show for them selves, its becuase the system is stacked against them for the get go, the law is on the employer side, rampent racism, out right sexism and the biggest barrier is class. With a for profit justice,education and healthcare system their not going to get the same benefits the as rich and the powerful. When people have hit rock bottom no-one cares the working class is no use to the bourgeois when they have no money or aren't able to be exploited for profit. I can see this in my home town as well, manufacturing is leaving York and going abroad where the labour lax and the labour is cheap.

Its not just the government that needs to fight this, its the working classes through whatever means they have left at their disposal, unions, activism, protest,exsisting democracy etc. Must halt this swing further right.

The minimum wage isn't meant defacto wage for the majority of workers its meant to be the bare minimum. But more employers are using that as the standard. The cost of living is slightly more here as i pointed out earlier, but all things considered after the difference of min wages and anecdotal things like healthcare insurance etc, but still the situation looks grim The UK also has a manufacturing industry, but after the witch that was thatcher and Neo-Liberalism the unions were smashed into a shadow of its former self and globalisation and the opening up of international labour markets has left this sector weakened and shattered.

Capitalism only cares for one thing profit, anything in the way will be destroyed, laws,unions,borders,wages and the working class in the name of profit.
 

Jorgen

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Marginal rates only tax income above a certain point. So all income below 5 mil would still yield net income, it's just that every dollar past 5 mil is 100% tax.

It's still radical and unrealistic, though. Not to mention that the extremely wealthy probably have more income taxable as capital gains than as personal income.
 
So here's what you do, you take Crux and Deck Knight, blend them together, strain out the bullshit, and eventually you get something resembling a reasonable idea.
 

Crux

Banned deucer.
If you're painting yourself in that regard, you might also want to add wit and the capacity to recognise sarcasm as desirable traits.
 
Oh I recognised that you were being sarcastic and trying to make a joke, it was just that your joke was less funny than Deck Knight's posts.
 

Crux

Banned deucer.
Sure you did buddy old pal. Deck Knight's posts are very funny either way, so I'll take a compliment when i get one.
 

LonelyNess

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Uh, I don't know if you are joking. But if say a ceo gets taxed 100% what is the point of becoming a ceo in the first place?
Not that I would approve of 100% taxation over 5 million, but I would think the point of becoming a CEO in the first place would be "getting to have 5 million dollars".

I think it's a pretty stupid suggestion to make that someone would just be like "Oh, I can't make INFINITE money? Then fuck making money all together!! NOT WORTH!!! Time to be a fry cook at McDonalds."
 
Not that I would approve of 100% taxation over 5 million, but I would think the point of becoming a CEO in the first place would be "getting to have 5 million dollars".

I think it's a pretty stupid suggestion to make that someone would just be like "Oh, I can't make INFINITE money? Then fuck making money all together!! NOT WORTH!!! Time to be a fry cook at McDonalds."
But there's definitely a point where weighing the amount of money you make with how much pressure you're under to perform well where you will just quit. I think this guy is saying that pretty much anyone that would get taxed 100% would all of a sudden find themselves either quitting their job (if they can't find themselves in an acceptable salary/tax bracket) or scaling back their salary (which I doubt can seriously be used to scale up other employees' salaries if they're in a company where the CEO is a multimillionare).
 

WaterBomb

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Not to mention that the extremely wealthy probably have more income taxable as capital gains than as personal income.
^^^^^^^^^^ this this this This THIS THIIIIIS!!!!

PS I would enjoy reading this thread far more if several of you could please learn the difference between "of" and "off", "then" and "than", etc.
 

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