Baton Pass - its role in the metagame and possible solutions to nerf full Baton Pass chains

[sidakarya]

• Is Baton Pass (with specific reference to full Baton Pass teams) a problem for the development of the metagame?

They're still rather uncommon. However, (and I think, this really ernstly started with the Swagger test), even now you can feel the influence of baton pass in the high ladder, and as word spreads on how absurdly easy this strategy is, its popularity will continue to grow. Then we would have a bigger problem.

• If so, what elements, in particular, do you think are pushing Baton Pass over the edge?

If we speak about that, how baton pass teams have become more powerful, that is a lot of things. Scolipede is basically a better Ninjask in every way; Fairy-types like Sylveon and Mawile are an easy answer to the dark-types, that traditionally were an issue to defensive baton pass teams; and indirectly, the Rain Nerf makes it, so that substitutes are not easily as broken simply by spamming Specs Hydro Pump.

But that's just a list of buffs to this kind of team. The real core of the problem, is that beating a defensive baton pass team is almost entirely based on match-up. If you have any of: a Hazer, Prankster Taunt, Talonflame, Pinsir, M-Gardevoir, Landorus-I, or some horribly niche thing like Ghost Curse, you can be assured of some chance of winning. Otherwise, you flat-out lose. Besides the fact, games decided entirely by matchups are absolutely horrible (and why Gen 5 was such shite, but that's another story), what has a significant chance to win against it is so overspecialised, you would never carry it for any other circumstance (Haze Quagsire e.g.).

• Do you believe that banning individual Pokémon (such as Espeon/Scolipede) would make Baton Pass manageable?

This is possible, but highly impractical and in the end not worth it. Baton Passers are many, and the way that a full baton pass team works, the individual strengths of a Pokémon alone are not a big factor in the equation, and relatedly, those individual Pokémon are not by themselves broken. BP teams are basically a giant set-up sweeper, that gets absurd stat boosts in the space of 5-10 turns. Characteristics like Magic Mirror, Speed Boost, Soundproof, or the fairy-type, are more important for choosing teammates, but again, baton passers are many and there is more than one thing with both Magic Mirror and BP, for example, which are to some degree interchangeable. If say, Espeon gets banned, one can just use M-Absol in its place; if Scolipede, then Ninjask; and so on. What I'm saying is, the problem is the whole team, not the individual Pokémon.

• Would you support a blanket ban on the move Baton Pass?

Categorically no; this would be burning the whole house down to destroy an infestation of insects. Clearly the only problematic thing, and the only reason, we're having this discussion, are dedicated, full baton pass teams, which with the introduction of Scolipede and fairies only get better and harder to handle. Quickpassing is a very legitimate, but much easier to counterplay strategy. Dry-passing is a quite effective form of pivoting which Specs Sylveon and M-Medicham very often use. A blanket ban on baton pass would hurt the viability of a lot of things, just to handle this one specific strategy.

• Would you support the introduction of complex bans (like Pokémon X+Pokémon Y on the same team)? Feel free to suggest more forms of complex bans, of course.

As averse we are to complex bans, I feel, this is actually the safest decision. There is actually direct precedent in Advance tours, where there was a suspect test concerning full baton pass teams, and the options reached were all complex bans (eventually it was decided to ban Ingrain Smeargle iirc). Something like limiting baton pass to 2-3 users, or banning baton pass + some ability or move, say, Magic Mirror, would do a lot to nerf full chains while still keeping other baton pass strategies viable.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

All righty.

Is Baton Pass a problem for the developing Metagame?

Well, zyzzyva said it well that it does some what encourage obscure moves like haze, but I haven't seen haze rise any in usage, so I don't think I'd count that.

It's a strategy that doesn't look like it promotes development by any means, because, as a strategy, countering it isn't the opponent's plan so much as predicting the Espeon, surprising the opponent, getting a crit, or some other original anti-baton pass strategy.

Since it doesn't promote development, and there's not much the metagame can do to evolve around it, I'd say it is indeed a problem.

What elements, in particular, do you think are pushing Baton Pass over the edge?

A lot of people argue Espeon, and I agree, but it's the auto speed of Scolipede that does it for me. Otherwise outspeeding the BP to end the chain with a KO would be a lot easier, and you could taunt much more reliably as well. Agility would still be an option but confidently giving all your team mates +4 speed so nothing but priority hits them is killer.

Do you believe that banning individual pokemon would make Baton Pass manageable?

Yes, without Espeon and Scolipede, baton pass would be a much less annoying strategy that only the best players could pull off, and those probably won't want to.

Would you support a blanket ban for Baton Pass?

No, because it would hinder the viability of a huge portion of the metagame. Scolipede passing Mega Heracross +2 speed is hardly noncompetitive, and Heracross appreciates it greatly. Baton Pass as a whole probably does more good than bad for the meta game, it's the team element that is the bad egg.

On the other hand, complex bans are messy, and they are frowned upon if not absolutely necessary, so if Baton Pass were suspected, I would base my decision completely on the test

Would you support the introduction of a complex ban?

Yes. As of right now, I think it is because of the a fore mentioned pros of non-chain baton passing, but this is a subject that I'm pretty uneducated except for fighting against it. Maybe I should give it a try...


I'd support a suspect test, because it'd likely help users like me who just hate going up against it better understand how abusers think.

 

[TROP]

Because I'm bored enough today

Is Baton Pass (with specific reference to full Baton Pass teams) a problem for the development of the metagame?

Considering you barely need knowledge of the current state of the meta to use baton pass teams correctly (unless you are a rock or something like that) I would say yes.

If so, what elements, in particular, do you think are pushing Baton Pass over the edge?

• The ease of use by a human being that is not a vegetable.
• Being autowin vs some teams unless you misclick a lot.
• Naturally having a lot of outs to things that should auto win vs it in theory (Espeon, Mime, random Ingrain Beagle, Mental herb)
• molk rekt me with druddigon once after a fuckton of boosts

Do you believe that banning individual Pokémon (such as Espeon/Scolipede) would make Baton Pass manageable?

Not really because it is easy to find ways to still make it work to extreme levels without their best 2 mons for experienced users. After a year of dragons I know this is likely to happen.

Would you support a blanket ban on the move Baton Pass?

No. Baton Pass is only dumb when it is used on a full baton pass team. Out of those it is a decent filler for some choiced mons. Only closest thing to a problem is Scolipede using it in its offensive SD set similar to how Blaziken did, but that would be Scolipede being broken by itself (assuming it is broken).

Would you support the introduction of complex bans (like Pokémon X+Pokémon Y on the same team)? Feel free to suggest more forms of complex bans, of course.

Just limiting the use of baton pass to 1 or 2 mons in the same team should be enough because, except for some random Smashpass teams, nobody uses more than that out of full bp and eliminates full BP without banning a move with good utility for choiced pokemon that requires some thought to use (something Swagger didn't have), an otherwise average at best mon (Espeon), and has 0 workarounds over a hypothetical pokemon x+pokemon y/ Espeon and Scolipede ban.

​

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

• Is Baton Pass (with specific reference to full Baton Pass teams) a problem for the development of the metagame?

Absolutely not. It's not nearly common enough to be detrimental to the metagame. Drizzle in Gen 5 OU wasn't even worth banning though it completely centralized the metagame around weather, so I don't see why we should ban something obscure (yet undeniably effective under the right circumstances) as Baton Pass. It is very powerful, but it's not detrimental to the metagame at all.

• If so, what elements, in particular, do you think are pushing Baton Pass over the edge?

No need to answer this, BP isn't broken in any sense.

• Do you believe that banning individual Pokémon (such as Espeon/Scolipede) would make Baton Pass manageable?

No I do not, also it would hurt other teams that would like to use Espeon as a Dual Screener or Scolipede as a lategame sweeper. It's not individual pokemon that make Baton Pass powerful, it's the whole team in itself. If it's not Scolipede people will go back to Ninjask, and Espeon as a sweeper can be replaced by any other receiver. It would require more focus on blocking Taunt/Whirlwind without Espeon but in the end there wouldn't be a huge nerf to Baton Pass.

• Would you support a blanket ban on the move Baton Pass?

No. Besides Baton Pass also has other uses, like scouting or avoiding Pursuit. Also not every Baton Passer is used on a full BP team. If for some reason a BP nerf would take place this would not be the right way to approach things.

• Would you support the introduction of complex bans (like Pokémon X+Pokémon Y on the same team)? Feel free to suggest more forms of complex bans, of course.

Again it's not one or two pokemon that make Baton Pass powerful. It's how all team members interact with each other and how they cover each others weaknesses while accumulating boosts. Complex bans like the one suggested have not been done before (closest was Drizzle + Swift Swim but that was ridiculous anyway), and afaik it should stay that way for another while. If you need to nerf Baton Pass there's probably better ways to approach it.

 

[qpie]

This post is largely based on personal experience and opinions. If I'm talking shit feel free to call me out on it.

First things first. I firmly believe that full Baton Pass teams are a legitimate strategy. They are not inherently broken and unlike fully formulaic playstyles like full Swagplay require at least a minimum of skill, critical thinking and prediction to play.

Regardless of this, I would still argue that full Baton Pass teams are problematic for the development of the metagame. Haunter summed it up perfectly already.

It is said that Baton Pass chains exacerbate the match-up component of the game

In my opinion this is where the problem with full Baton Pass teams lies. You either bring something like CM Landorus-I, Taunt Thundurus-I, Specs Gengar or whatever else can put huge pressure on full BP in the first few turns and find yourself in absurdly easy matchup or you might as well forfeit on the team preview screen.

Got a team with lots of strong setup sweepers? Congratulations, you win, great game, way to go champ. Brought stall or any sort of balanced team? Sucks to be you.

Now the underlying problem here is that neither of these scenarios results in a fun (or skillful) match. Either way the game becomes almost entirely formulaic save for the slight possibility of a handful of coinflip predictions in the first few turns or a random crit.


So how do we solve this problem?

The easiest solution would certainly be to just ban that shit altogether. Then again this would remove a legitimate strategy from the game, so I'd personally greatly prefer a minor nerf through a targeted ban to hopefully make playing against full Baton Pass teams a little less matchup-reliant.

Now the problem here is that full Baton Pass teams are fragile constructs which rely greatly on all of their components. Take away Espeon and they fall apart, ban Smeargle and they become completely unviable and so on. Despite that virtually all of its components have legitimate uses outside of full BP teams and are perfectly fine on their own.

This is why I feel like a complex ban is needed.

Disallowing Baton Pass on more than 4(?) Pokemon per team might work.

Banning the combination of Baton Pass on Stored Power on the same Pokemon so they can't play Espeon as liberally might solve the problem.

Maybe even banning Ingrain and Baton Pass on the same Pokemon to force full Baton Pass teams to actually predict against phazers would do the trick already.

Now these are just suggestions off the top of my head and I'm not even sure if they would actually fix the problem, but the point is that I'd like to preserve (full) Baton Pass as a viable playstyle while taking away its ability to auto-win against entire playstyles.

 

[Baharoth]

A month ago i would have probably said just ban that shit asap, now I am not sure anymore.

BP certainly is annoying because its so black and white to play against it. Have a counter and win or dont have one and lose unless you get lucky. The problem is that while BP takes matchup advantage to a whole new level its not like it cant be dealt with. There are quite alot of ways out there that, when put on a team, give you a solid chance to beat BP. Haze on Stall, strong special attackers on HO etc. Most teams dont have to go out of their way to handle BP. Even if you decide not to run some hardcounter to it, with the right strategy you can still beat it. I have found a 2 mon combination that beats it most of the time even though one of the mons alone couldnt do much, and I am positiv that there are many more combinations out there to accomplish the same goal, people just have to use their brains. The main problem here is probably that the match against BP is decided in the team builder and not in the match itself.

Considering that it realy makes me wonder if its ok to just go and ban the whole playstyle just because most people dont like it. Unlike Swagger its not uncompetitive because there isnt that much luck involved and basicly the whole luck factor plays against BP. That beeing said I certainly dont mind if it gets banned personally but I dont know if its the right thing to do.

However if a decision is made to ban it I think a complex ban is the best way to go. I think there a 2 ways to more or less neutralize BP.

1) Ban BP on either Espeon OR Scolipede. Both pokemon are lethal to BPs success, if we take away one of them it should be crippled to an extent where its alot easier to deal with it, even without dedicated counter strategies.

That way would have a downside though. BP has its use on both of them outside of dedicated BP teams, something that would be gone after that ban. Because of that I would prefer the second way, its even more complex but if we have to use a complex ban anyway we can just go and do it right.

2) Ban the combination of BP, Espeon and Scolipede on a team. That would solve the problem as well without having sideeffects on other teams and strategies.

 

[rachet67]

The thing that I don't get at all about how Baton Pass cannot be stopped in this regard is the fragility of most magic bounce users.

The thing that bothers me is we're talking about nerfing or banning stuff when supposedly it's "cheap" to utilize Magic Bounce + Baton Pass. Xatu and Espeon are fragile as a few sheets of glass, even with screens up. It's extraordinarily simple to switch pokemon or carry something along the lines or Roar or Whirlwind. Even Pokemon with Sound-based moves or Infiltrator can be looked into to getting around the substitutes.

Even if Xatu and Espeon are out, USE SOMETHING ELSE. Knock-off on virtually anything tears through Xatu, Espeon isn't perfect either. It feels like people are losing to baton pass teams ONLY because they are not switching to the correct pokemon to be using. Dark types are practically everywhere in the meta-game to where Xatu and Espeon are not too much of a threat. Scolipede is a fantastic pokemon too but lacks great survivability when Priority is involved. (Also Scolipede HATES burns/paralysis)

Magic Bounce Xatu can't run baton pass as it learns it in gen 3. Screens aren't even used in a full BP team. Sure Espeon is frail at first, but the whole point of a full BP team is that it will eventually have pretty much +4 or more in both defenses. Besides that, its only going to switch in when it needs to prevent taunt or phazing, or to finish the game with stored power. Espeon isn't going to take a knock off seeing that no pokemon with a powerful knock off is phazing or using taunt.

Lastly, Haze, Perish Song, Clear Smog. Three moves no-one uses suddenly have a use. Sounds familiar right? Knock-off used to be complete arse before this generation, thanks to it's power buff, it's everywhere possible.

There are litteraly two viable users of perish song (celebi and politoed) and Mr. Mime ignores this completely due to Soundproof. Haze and Clear smog have almost no use against non BP teams, have very limited distribution, and are hard to put on any team other than a full stall team (with Quagsire being pretty much the only user).

Would you support the introduction of complex bans (like Pokémon X+Pokémon Y on the same team)? Feel free to suggest more forms of complex bans, of course.

Still no, Baton Pass has never been a broken strategy and has always followed through with the meta-game's effort to be about proper strategy and prediction. If I wanted to pass my stat boosts, I am free to do so, but I also need to be wary of the opponent getting the jump on me with other tricks such as Entry Hazards (Which hurt quite a bit and are EVERYWHERE), Priority, and just common phazing the chain away.

Entry hazards and priority don't matter at all when your mons are behind a sub and with a massive amount of defensive boosts, and Espeon (which is on all BP teams) prevents phazing.

 

[SoulRed12]

1. Is Baton Pass (with specific reference to full Baton Pass teams) a problem for the development of the metagame?
I think BP does require some strategy/prediction, but primarily in the middle. At the beginning, we all know it's "protect, sub, protect, sub," and at the end it's "spam literally any move," but between those points, considering you're only getting speed boosts if your opponent plays correctly against Scolipede, you have to decide who to go out to. You're not only afraid of getting roared/taunted, you're afraid of frail things like Espeon or Mime getting thwacked before the defense boosts. Even the ubiquitous u-turn could help take on Baton Pass; you u-turn as you predict a baton pass, they'll go first since they have all that speed, then you switch to something that can 1) set up alongside whoever they go into, or 2) get a strong hit on either the thing that comes in or whatever that thing decides to baton pass to. With the standard Scolipede lead, you know Scolipede can only boost its physical defense, so you lead with a NPer and break a sub then boost on protect. If he has to BP without a substitute, you're in great position because you can obliterate anything that comes in. You can't really compare NPers to Own Tempo mons. Lots of extremely viable things can and will boost using NP without being on a team strictly to combat BP. Priority taunt is also generally fantastic for all kinds of things, and mons like Sableye and Thundurus are run for their general OU viability (of course, Thundy more than Sableye), not just to shut down BP teams. Thundurus can even be both of those things in one, running something like NP / Taunt / Thunderbolt / HP Ice.

But BP has also undergone evolution, which I think is a factor weighing in its favor. Unlike swagplay, which can have support from teammates like Ditto but can otherwise be self-contained in a single keychainpokemon, and will probably never change since it's so simplistic consisting literally of two to four moves and an ability, Baton Pass requires an entire team which parts have evolved as people thought of new ways to make a baton pass chain. This is also as the generations marched onward. It used to be the only way to combat Roar was Smeargle with ingrain, then we got soundproof and then magic bounce. People even started running Mental Herb Ninjask at one point for a while before magic bounce came about, which I thought was really clever since nobody really used Mental Herb for anything else. It's much harder to combat BP teams now, but I don't think they're a problem because they actually take some strategy both in team building and in things like choosing who to BP to, or when to sub vs. BP to something else. Unlike Swagplay where the strategy is "swagger whatever is there, no matter what, then sub."

2. If so, what elements, in particular, do you think are pushing Baton Pass over the edge?
Nothing really. See above. If anything, it's just that recent generations have given BP lots of goodies that make it easier to pull off. Still, the strategy does require many turns of set-up, unlike swagplay.

3. Do you believe that banning individual Pokémon (such as Espeon/Scolipede) would make Baton Pass manageable?
Like the pokemon themselves in the Swagplay case, the pokemon who take advantage of baton pass chains definitely have reason to exist outside of Baton Pass. Espeon likes to bounce support moves whether it's on a BP chain or not, Swords Dance Speed Boost Scolipede is pretty neat, etc. I guess we could ban mime, lol. (not srs) So I think it would be way overreaching to just ban the premier BP pokemon just like I thought it would have been way overreaching to ban things like Klefki and Thundurus just because they are the best swagplayers.

4. Would you support a blanket ban on the move Baton Pass?
Unlike Swagger, Baton Pass has legitimate uses outside of full baton pass chains. E.g., smash/quiver-pass, or even for things like Espeon to escape pursuit without passing boosts. So it would be much more of a big deal to ban Baton Pass than to ban Swagger and I wouldn't support it.

5. Would you support the introduction of complex bans (like Pokémon X+Pokémon Y on the same team)? Feel free to suggest more forms of complex bans, of course.
Given the answers to #3 and #4, the only option is some kind of complex ban, the utility of which will have to be weighed against the downside of such a complex ban. And as I see it, it will have to be a very complex ban because you can't just reduce it to something simple like "priority swagger." Honestly it's probably just not possible. Any ban I can think of also bans a wide range of "legitimate" baton pass stuff (assuming we're calling full BP teams "illegitimate"). And I don't think people are really complaining about baton pass as a mechanic, but rather entire teams using baton pass. I guess maybe the only potentially viable one would be ban teams where 5 or perhaps 4 pokemon have baton pass (though I still don't think it's all that necessary).

 

[Red Cat]

Is Baton Pass a problem for the metagame?

No. Baton Pass is a playstyle which does have hard counters besides crit hax. It is not that different from weather teams and Trick Room teams which you can beat without too much difficulty if you are prepared for them, but you are demolished by them if you are unprepared. People can and should be expected to have an answer for Baton Pass just like any other playstyle, and Baton Pass teams will die off naturally once enough people know how to beat them.

What elements are pushing Baton Pass over the edge?

None. Baton Pass is simple. If you have an answer for Baton Pass, you usually win; if you do not have an answer, you usually lose. Teambuilding is part of the game, and unlike SwagPlay, there is no luck involved with Baton Pass. Prediction and Preparedness are the only factors involved, and we should be celebrating these characteristics, not banning things.

Do you think banning individual Pokemon would make Baton Pass more manageable?

No. As a stated before, we do not need any bans. What do you think other people outside Smogon would think about us if they saw Espeon or Scolipede on our banlist? It would be a total embarrassment for Smogon.

Would you support a blanket ban on Baton Pass?

No. Espeon and Scolipede have sets which use Baton Pass outside of defensive BP chains. We shouldn't kill quick passing and dry passing (to escape Pursuit and grab momentum) because of BP chains.

Would you support complex bans?

No. Unlike individual Pokemon, Baton Pass requires putting all of the eggs in one basket. Taunt, Haze, Curse, and setup sweepers are all options that can destroy an entire Baton Pass team and they usually require only one moveslot on your team. Trading one moveslot to beat an entire playstyle should not be too hard for most players, and thus there should be no bans.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

Is Baton Pass (with specific reference to full Baton Pass teams) a problem for the development of the metagame?

Possibly. There are enough checks and counters to it that it's not auto-win against every team, but most of these counters will not fit on any team. My rain team certainly has no room for Haze Quagsire, and it pretty much auto-loses against BP teams (mostly due to Vapreon and everything having +4 speed to outspeed Kingdra/Kabutops in rain.) I don't get this "auto-lose" effect against any other team type, even when they carry significant obstacles like Gastrodon.

(I'm sure quite a lot of other teams or entire archetypes "auto-lose" against BP and have no option to carry something that can deal with it. Not just saying "BP teams beat my rain team pls ban pls.")

If so, what elements, in particular, do you think are pushing Baton Pass over the edge?

I don't know. Nearly every move, ability and Pokemon used on a Baton Pass team is vital to its success.

Do you believe that banning individual Pokémon (such as Espeon/Scolipede) would make Baton Pass manageable?

Absolutely not. Scolipede is not broken. Espeon is not broken. No single member of a Baton Pass team is broken or ban-worthy, and they have use outside of a BP team. Scolipede can run a good offensive set or simply us Baton Pass to aid a single teammember, but not be a link in a BP chain. Espeon is a decent Screener whose Screens can't be defogged, and is the best user of Magic Bounce (there's not much competition though.)

Would you support a blanket ban on the move Baton Pass?

Absolutely not. Banning Baton Pass would impact the viability of some Pokemon. Some Pokemon like Celebi can use it to avoid Pursuit trapping. A lot of Scolipede's use comes from being able to support slow but powerful attackers like Mega Heracross, Kyu-B, etc. "Dry-passing" without boosts can be a way to gain momentum or get an advantageous match-up in the say way Volt-Turn does, e.g. Mega Medicham can use Baton Pass to switch to Bisharp as Aegislash (Cham's #1 counter) comes in and pursuit trap it or get a free turn for Bisharp. SmashPass is the only real reason to use Gorebyss. Things like Mega Absol can Baton Pass a Swords Dance boost when faced with a counter.

Without Baton Pass, Espeon, Celebi, Mew, and some other psychic Pokemon and Pokemon with poor defenses and the inability to beat Tyranitar and co. would have their viability hurt.
Banning of Baton Pass would also hurt the viability of pokemon like Mega Absol, Scolipede and others who have the option to pass their boosts to a team member, either of their own accord or when faced with a counter.
Baton Passing without boosts to gain momentum would also be eliminated with this ban, and would hurt the viability of many pokemon that gets the move (it's my personal opinion that Mega Medicham's best moveset is one with Baton Pass.)

Don't ban Baton Pass. That's the worst possible option.

Would you support the introduction of complex bans (like Pokémon X+Pokémon Y on the same team)? Feel free to suggest more forms of complex bans, of course.

In gen 5, Drizzle was (arguably) not broken. Swift Swim was also not broken. But they were deemed broken when on the same team, and a complex ban of Drizzle+Swift Swim on the same team avoided a possible banning of multiple pokemon like Kingdra, Kabutops and Ludicolo who were broken when used on a Drizzle team but nowhere else, or a blanket ban of the ability Swift Swim which was also only broken when used on a Drizzle team (and would have practically eliminated all viability for those Pokemon, either on a manual Rain team or as a rain counter.)

Baton Pass is similar. There is no one, singular Pokemon, ability or move used on a Baton Pass team that is in and of itself broken or overpowering, much like Drizzle teams that featured powerful Swift Swimmers. Kingdra and friends were broken when given Drizzle support, but they were not broken Pokemon: much like how Stored Power Espeon is only "broken" when given tons and tons of boosts.

Thus, I think a complex ban is best; but not a complex ban that completely butchers and eliminates Baton Pass as a viable team archetype, like how the DrizzleSwim ban did not completely destroy offensive (or defensive) rain teams but made them a lot more manageable. Baton Pass teams should be nerfed, not completely demolished for being something that doesn't play like a standard offensive/defensive team. Swagplay was completely removed for being a tactic that relies on luck, Baton Pass does not rely on luck and is just one of many strategies a team can be built around.

I don't know what that ban would look like, but it should not be one that makes Baton Pass teams completely inviable or impossible to run. "No more than three BP users on a team" would destroy it; "Scolipede and Espeon can't be on the same team when both have Baton Pass" would be a ban that, while it could be improved upon, would be one that does not eliminate BP teams, but would make them more manageable (Ninjask is shit.)

(This is, of course, assuming BP teams are worthy of nerfing, which I'm not entirely sure they are; I am not personally advocating a Scolipede+Espeon Ban.)

 

[BKC]

a question for all the people who are like "if you are prepared for bp you win and if not you lose" do you actually think this is ok? like i can be somewhat unprepared for terrakion or keldeo or something but i can potentially beat them with smart play. that does not exist with bp. are you seriously saying there is no issue with bp teams winning and losing on matchup alone?

 

[Baharoth]

a question for all the people who are like "if you are prepared for bp you win and if not you lose" do you actually think this is ok? like i can be somewhat unprepared for terrakion or keldeo or something but i can potentially beat them with smart play. that does not exist with bp. are you seriously saying there is no issue with bp teams winning and losing on matchup alone?

Well its your own choice whether your prepared for it or not so yeah its somewhat "ok". If there were only very few counters and/or only counters that have no use outside of taking out BP it would be a problem but thats not the case. Its borderline imo.

 

[MikeDawg]

I personally am against the nerfing of baton pass. I think that it is a perfectly competitive strategy with completely viable counters/checks.

1. It can be almost completely countered by haze. If the opponent has a haze user and they play semi-decently, the baton pass team will lose.
2. Roar/Whirlwind are not as easily stopped by espeon/mime as they seem. While it is important for the baton pass user to scout, more defensive teams can use the large number of setup turns to bluff not having one of these moves. They must play rather well to accomplish this, but it will break a chain. I personally run 2 roar users on my current team. This is not exactly indicative of baton pass being uncentralizing, but it is a specific case for my team because since it is more weak and balanced, it is especially weak to baton pass (just like how a stall team will struggle against a gothitelle team, etc. Team matchup exists and I don't think banning a playstyle is the solution to fixing it).
3. Fast/Priority taunt. These are even easier to bluff than roar/whirlwind and things think thundurus mean that even offensive teams have access to them. Encore serves the same purpose here.
4. General Hard Hitters. I found when I ran bpass that my biggest threat apart from haze was landorus/gengar/etc. Mostly special mons that could tear through my team before I had time to accrue boosts. This is the most passive teambuilding method to counter bpass and fits in almost any playstyle.

Would I be completely opposed to a nerf? Not really. I think that there is certainly grounds for nerfing it. But at this point, especially in ladder play, I feel as if it just another teamstyle to prepare for, and only haze is really specific to bpass (unless it's on something like quagy, in which case it has a rather large general use)



To address the argument that win/lose against bpass is black/white, I disagree. When I played baton pass, I was able to win against even teams with haze by utilizing good play, and teams with no traditional bp defense were able to beat me with equally good play. I think there is more strategy/prediction to it than it is given credit for.


If there was a nerf, I would be mainly in favor of banning baton pass on espeon.

 

[Ash Borer]

Another detrimental effect that Baton Pass teams have on this community is the degradation of ladder prestige. I have used Baton Pass, and fought it. I know that it requires little ability to play this game and any of the predictions a BP user has to make is mostly just coinflips, or something easy to do considering they control the pace with their massive defense boosts. Also using other people's teams is something that plenty of players do, but the extent that BP users copy the exact same team is just sickening. I KNOW I have fought plenty of players that have copied users such as Ajwf and TFL's stall teams as well as Sinclair or Masterclasses offensive teams and they fall flat with them, but when I actually fight these players that made the teams they are much, much more challenging opponents. BAton Pass users play the exact same every time.

Baton Pass is something no good player respects, ask user Valentine. Because of BP's ability to prey on unprepped teams BP users can play 100s of games, and even though they have consistent losses to prepared teams, they eventually rank high by ELO. Because of this the upper ends of the ladder are littered with BP users, so being up there is not something that players can be proud of. When I look at the top of the ladder, ideally, I should see good players. REcently some up and coming tournament players wioth now winning records were "discovered" by being impressive ladder fiends. THat to me meant that if I saw a player at the top, then you could consider them good. Now, I can't and that's just disappointing to players that are trying to break into the tournament scene or make a name for themselves.


As for a ban this is what I would propose: No more than 2 users of Baton Pass per team. This completely eliminates the ability to form powerful BP chains, but at the same time does not stifle tactics such as "quickpass" or using BP as a move to gain switch advantage/escape pursuit. Perhaps 3.

 

[Red Cat]

Another detrimental effect that Baton Pass teams have on this community is the degradation of ladder prestige. I have used Baton Pass, and fought it. I know that it requires little ability to play this game and any of the predictions a BP user has to make is mostly just coinflips, or something easy to do considering they control the pace with their massive defense boosts. Also using other people's teams is something that plenty of players do, but the extent that BP users copy the exact same team is just sickening. I KNOW I have fought plenty of players that have copied users such as Ajwf and TFL's stall teams as well as Sinclair or Masterclasses offensive teams and they fall flat with them, but when I actually fight these players that made the teams they are much, much more challenging opponents. BAton Pass users play the exact same every time.

Baton Pass is something no good player respects, ask user Valentine. Because of BP's ability to prey on unprepped teams BP users can play 100s of games, and even though they have consistent losses to prepared teams, they eventually rank high by ELO. Because of this the upper ends of the ladder are littered with BP users, so being up there is not something that players can be proud of. When I look at the top of the ladder, ideally, I should see good players. REcently some up and coming tournament players wioth now winning records were "discovered" by being impressive ladder fiends. THat to me meant that if I saw a player at the top, then you could consider them good. Now, I can't and that's just disappointing to players that are trying to break into the tournament scene or make a name for themselves.


As for a ban this is what I would propose: No more than 2 users of Baton Pass per team. This completely eliminates the ability to form powerful BP chains, but at the same time does not stifle tactics such as "quickpass" or using BP as a move to gain switch advantage/escape pursuit. Perhaps 3.

We should not ban Baton Pass just because it is easy to ladder with because other people are unprepared for it. We should not punish people for taking advantage of current ladder trends; this is what a good battler does. Eventually, the ladder will evolve to make Baton Pass less viable, and you won't see Baton Pass teams high on the ladder. We do not need to make an unnecessary ban to accomplish that result.

 

[Tesung]

First, I am not advocating for any certain type of ban, just that the idea should be put in a thread and solutions considered. The point is that baton pass chains need to be needed somehow, for the following reasons.

1. It takes little to no skill to use.
U lead with scolipede, or if they have something to antileadlatk scolipede(rare),u lead smeargle. You then get up your appropriate boosts, and once you get the speed, which is easy, you can be constantly ahead of them, making it like voltturn but a thousand times worse because you get stronger with every turn. Nothing stops an espeon sweep in the end

2. It has become rampant on the ladder, with players who have in my eyes and the eyes of many, little experience/skill peaking or being very near the top easily. Now, all strategies can be used a lot, such as stall, deoxys ho, etc. however, when you combine this with number 3, it becomes a problem.

3. Playing against it is horrible. Playing against baton pass is essentially swagplay but worse. Swagplay, you at least have a 50 pct chance or so at first. Against this, your only option is to simply pray for a crit. Otherwise, you watch as you can do nothing to them, they are stronger and crZy bulky, and they constantly have momentum, and then espeon sweeps you from full, as you know that there was nothing you could have done other than crit.

Those 3 are the main reasons, although their are others, such as

-the amount it is based on team matchup is insane. Either you have a full counter, a la sableye etc, or you just lose. While you may say that of course u should have a counter, try playing without a pinsir answeror a thundy answer, there is a difference. There are no real good checks to baton pass, only counters, kind of like prankster assist in 5th gen nu, which was banned for that reason. Either you have an answer or you don't, and the game is decide their, unreliant on skill.

-it is starting to see tourney usage, despite the stigma against it. Essentially, it is good enough that despite the fact that everyone will hate you, it has seen usage in spl, where it would have won if it weren't for extreme hax, and last round if ost, where it won.


-it's Gay AS FUCk

So anyways, discounting that last one, which was a joke, I think I have outlined many clear reasons that this needs to be looked into. Thanks for your time

 

[rachet67]

I don't know why people keep saying that BP is fine since haze is a full stop to it. Quagsire is literally the only pokemon that could possibly run haze in OU. Dragonite, Kingdra, Greninja can run it, but it would be a huge waste of there potential.

 

[chicharo23]

in my opinion just banning magic bounce- bp, is ok but it could also be used a banning rule that doesnt allow more than 3/2 bp on a team, that way we dont hurt so much the metagame.

 

[Ash Borer]

We should not ban Baton Pass just because it is easy to ladder with because other people are unprepared for it. We should not punish people for taking advantage of current ladder trends; this is what a good battler does. Eventually, the ladder will evolve to make Baton Pass less viable, and you won't see Baton Pass teams high on the ladder. We do not need to make an unnecessary ban to accomplish that result.

Let me reiterate. Baton PAss is mostly thoughtless and requires little knowledge of the team youre using and the metagame compared to other ways to play.

why should a meta have to prepared for such a thing? If BP couldnt top the ladder then the players would be so prepared for it that it would be stupidly centralizing. There is no reason to force players to prepare for something that is so cancerous to the game and arguably uncompetitive.

 

[Magnemite]

We should not ban Baton Pass just because it is easy to ladder with because other people are unprepared for it. We should not punish people for taking advantage of current ladder trends; this is what a good battler does. Eventually, the ladder will evolve to make Baton Pass less viable, and you won't see Baton Pass teams high on the ladder. We do not need to make an unnecessary ban to accomplish that result.

You act like there are a huge number of viable counters to BP. There really aren't. There's Taunt Thundurus and Haze Quagsire. That's just about it, other than random barely viable stuff like Sableye. And almost every time you would use either of those sets it would be for the sole purpose of beating BP. Is this not a problem? Your entire agument revolves around BP being relatively easy to pack checks to, but it really isn't. When something is so bad that it basically requires you to put a Sableye on your team if you want to beat it, there is a problem.

Anyway, I agree with the Aldaron's proposal-esque idea of banning more than one or two BP mons on one team since that seems to be the easiest way of banning BP chains without being overly complex or banning something that isn't broken (lol espeon).

 

[sidakarya]

Actually, as said before, Haze Unaware Quagsire needs to get in immediately, or else it gets killed by Stored Power after 5 or so boosts...

Really, the only full hard-counters to dedicated BP are extremely niche moves (Ghost Curse, Psych-up, etc.), that you'd have no occasion to use other than to answer baton pass teams.

 

[Knight of Cydonia]

That to me meant that if I saw a player at the top, then you could consider them good. Now, I can't

This is an important point that shows the reduced skill level needed to play baton pass compared to other styles. People who aren't necessarily top 10 skillwise are topping the ladder with this strategy. Baton pass teams were particularly prevalent on the last suspect ladder. This was due to people both lacking the skill or the time/effort to achieve reqs with a normal team. Basically when the pressure is on to pull out wins baton pass can give people the uncompetitive edge they need to succeed. The fact that people are even using it in important tournaments despite the cheapness associated with it shows how unfair it can be against unprepared opponents.

 

[Sturdynips]

One point i would like to make regarding the matchup argument:
It is fundamentally wrong to say that diversity is a sign of a healthy metagame, then say that being forced to run "niche" counters to BP is a reason for its uncompetitiveness. BP is not uncompetitive to the extent of swag play. I disagree with claims that an unskilled player with BP can easily beat a relatively unprepared skilled player. Take one of the key moments in the swagplay discussion: Stone Cold's OST loss. I highly doubt that he would have lost if his opponent brought BP. This is because BP is not mindless to the same extent as swag play, or even evasion. As such, in my opinion, one of the fundamental tenets of competitive Pokemon - that the better player will win the large majority of the time excluding hax - is not imbalanced here.

There's no doubt BP is strong right now, but like most playstyle shifts it will be less effective as it gains popularity. Thundurus + bisharp pretty much forces stall to run Quagsire, a Pokemon with no niche to speak of until now. I think it's far too early to make an educated decision on this. The metagame should be given the chance to adapt, and if it doesn't then there is likely a problem. IMO, the period up till now doesn't count as adapting as BP is relatively new on the scene.

From what I've seen, people having success with BP are already good players. Maybe something should be done if it becomes obvious that poor players can consistently beat skilled players, but for the moment I think any action would be hasty.

 

[rachet67]

I just don't think, that if you have two well built teams, that the match should be decided completely before it even starts. Like BKC said, even a bad matchup can generally be won through good prediction and admittedly, a bit of luck. A bad matchup against a BP team doesn't even allow that. Not everyone can run Sableye, Landorus-i, Thundurus w/taunt, and/or Quagsire w/ haze, especially since the latter two have better sets to be running. Not everyone wants to use HO teams. At the moment, a balanced team without any of the mentioned counters pretty much loses automatically to BP teams.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

Anyway, I agree with the Aldaron's proposal-esque idea of banning more than one or two BP mons on one team since that seems to be the easiest way of banning BP chains without being overly complex or banning something that isn't broken (lol espeon).

Aldaron's proposal did not completely demolish offensive rain teams. It just balanced them. "No more than one or two mons with BP on a team" makes it impossible to run BP teams. Swagger ban made it impossible to run a swagplay team but swagplay wasn't banned for being overpowered, it was banned for abusing a luck-based move.

If BP teams are overpowered, they should be balanced, not completely wiped out. Banning Speed Boost+Magic Bounce on the same team is more reasonable, or just Scolipede+Magic Bounce.