Yeah because hitting two stone edges in a row, accounting for protect+leftovers and the 53% chance is totally reliable, hint: no, youre not 2hkoing it lol. Florges is such a metagame defining threat that the fact that its still not S rank after all this time is just baffling. EonX- what are you even talking about, houndoom takes like 45% from a moonblast while it cant ohko florges even after a boost, sure it can beat florges 1vs1 but it must be at exactly 100% health to do so and even if it beats florges it will be at like 5% health. As i said before theres a reason the nidos are the premier wallbreakers, and thats because florges exists, otherwise shit like sd heracross would be all over the place, also theyre dedicated wallbreakers, theyre supposed to break walls, the fact that florges loses to them means literally nothing.
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XY UU Viability Ranking Thread
- Thread starter Limitless
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I don't think Florges deserves A+ Rank to be honest. Fairy typing is nice but Florges lacks the stats to do its job. Whike technically it can wall Heracross and Mienshao with its typing, Florges can be beaten easily by the common CB and SD Heracross while Poison Jab had seen a rise on Mienshao to hurt Florges hard. It more often than not fails to wall them (especially Heracross). When using physically defensivs Florges, it faces stiff competition with Aromatisse. While Florges has a pro on walling threats on both sides, Aromatisse's far better physical bulk makes use of the nice physical resistance of fairy typing better. As a physically defensive fairy, Florges is to an extent outclassed.
On walling special threats, Florges still isn't a catch all special wall either. Many top tier special attackers like Mega Houndoom, Victini(univested v create still hurts), Nidos, Roserade, Starmie, Specs PoryZ, Specs Chandy, NP Azelf etc just powers through it quite easily. Mega Ampharos, Mega Manectric, Raikou can just rack up damage on the switch while every single CMer just sets up on its face. Even Shaymin can bait for SpDef drops and force the team to have something else to tank a LO Seed Flare. Florges simply doesn't hard counter much except for Kyurem, Mega Blastoise and some weaker non-boosting attackers. Florges, being a special wall, fails to wall the most relavant special attackers.
While Florges has a decent SpA stat and a decently powerful STAB Moonblast, it doesn't hit its common switch ins hard enough. Things usually switching into Florges like Nidos, Rosy, VIctini etc simply doesn't care about Moonblast at all. Even frailer ones like Darmanitan can survive one or two and wreck Florges easily. Giving a free switch in to the metagame's major threats is not a good thing at all. Moonblast also falls short of KOing things like Mega Houndoom, Azelf etc even after rocks while they easily 2HKO back after a boost.
Using WishTect as recovery is also pretty bad too as it makes Florges either a momentum loser or being worn down easily. This is especially significant when hazards are up, causing Florges to rarely be in full health. Florges has a hard timing walling things and wishpassing at the same time as it needs to be in high health to wall things. More often than not Florges is the first part of a stall core to die when being exerted offensive pressure. Florges has a hard time lasting throughout the match.
While Florges may have a decent typing and nice special bulk, the tier is simply not nice to it to be in A+ Rank. Part of the reason maybe Florges' influence on the tier but this shouldn't be accounted for the ranking as the viablity ranking is accessing a pokemon's ability on battle rather than its influence on usage stats. I think A Rank is more suitable for it.
I want to write for Umbreon ans Aromatisse but have no time left. Maybe next time.
On walling special threats, Florges still isn't a catch all special wall either. Many top tier special attackers like Mega Houndoom, Victini(univested v create still hurts), Nidos, Roserade, Starmie, Specs PoryZ, Specs Chandy, NP Azelf etc just powers through it quite easily. Mega Ampharos, Mega Manectric, Raikou can just rack up damage on the switch while every single CMer just sets up on its face. Even Shaymin can bait for SpDef drops and force the team to have something else to tank a LO Seed Flare. Florges simply doesn't hard counter much except for Kyurem, Mega Blastoise and some weaker non-boosting attackers. Florges, being a special wall, fails to wall the most relavant special attackers.
While Florges has a decent SpA stat and a decently powerful STAB Moonblast, it doesn't hit its common switch ins hard enough. Things usually switching into Florges like Nidos, Rosy, VIctini etc simply doesn't care about Moonblast at all. Even frailer ones like Darmanitan can survive one or two and wreck Florges easily. Giving a free switch in to the metagame's major threats is not a good thing at all. Moonblast also falls short of KOing things like Mega Houndoom, Azelf etc even after rocks while they easily 2HKO back after a boost.
Using WishTect as recovery is also pretty bad too as it makes Florges either a momentum loser or being worn down easily. This is especially significant when hazards are up, causing Florges to rarely be in full health. Florges has a hard timing walling things and wishpassing at the same time as it needs to be in high health to wall things. More often than not Florges is the first part of a stall core to die when being exerted offensive pressure. Florges has a hard time lasting throughout the match.
While Florges may have a decent typing and nice special bulk, the tier is simply not nice to it to be in A+ Rank. Part of the reason maybe Florges' influence on the tier but this shouldn't be accounted for the ranking as the viablity ranking is accessing a pokemon's ability on battle rather than its influence on usage stats. I think A Rank is more suitable for it.
I want to write for Umbreon ans Aromatisse but have no time left. Maybe next time.
If you are going to make the argument that Stone Edge + protect will save you simply due to luck, is it also safe to assume that SR are on the field? And that Florges has taken some prior damage? It is a wall after all. We aren't arguing that Florges isn't a great all, we are arguing that it is not an S-ranked wall. It does one job, and it does it well, but not overwhelming well. And Nido's being used because of Florges making it S-ranked isn't exactly the best argument. Like I have said before, Toxicroak went up in usage because of Mega Blastoise and CroCune, but they aren't S-ranked either. Also, Nido isn't used only because of Florges. Nidoking/Queen are good even if Florges didn't exist, it just as more reason to be used because of Florges. Nidoking can hit many threats for big damage, such as Suicine, Hippowdown, and Roserade.
SmashBrosBrawl, and you're assuming Florges will be at 100% as well. As I'm p. sure kokoloko has mentioned somewhere in one of these threads, you shouldn't be running a fully SpDef spread on Florges. Think he mentioned something about 252 / 224 / 32+ being most optimal, and if we use that spread, then Megadoom only needs about 30% prior damage to KO Florges with +2 Fire Blast. This isn't hard to accomplish since Florges is usually counted on to pass Wishes, provide cleric support, and wall off a lot of other things for her team. Am I saying Umbreon does better against it? Heavens no. It does even worse since Florges can at least hit Doom for relevant damage. But I certainly wouldn't say Florges is a solid answer to Mega-Houndoom. Observe:
+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 36+ SpD Florges: 231-273 (64.1 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Not an OHKO, but so long as Florges has taken at least 30-33% prior damage, MegaDoom has a fairly decent chance to KO Florges after the boost.
+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 36+ SpD Florges: 231-273 (64.1 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Not an OHKO, but so long as Florges has taken at least 30-33% prior damage, MegaDoom has a fairly decent chance to KO Florges after the boost.
Even a specs analytic boosted hydro pump from starmie is not 2hkoing florges and thats assuming starmie is running specs in first place, nothing walls chandelure this is irrelevant, florges actually walls timid specs porygon z, np azelf is not a top tier threat and mega houndoom is not a florges check lol.
By this logic then, nothing can switch on anything. Also nowhere did i said florges is a check for houndoom, youre the one saying that houndoom can beat florges easily when this is not true. The difference between keeping a sr weak mon with no recovery, uninvested defenses and terrible typing healthy when compared to another who is the complete opposite of that should speak for itself. Yeah florges can be worn down, so can every wall that doesnt have regenerator, but that doesnt stop florges from walling what it has to and the reason it should be S is because of how many things it walls, to the point where it ends up defining the meta with its combination of typing and bulk.
Theres no point in assuming ''prior damage'' when the attacker is relying on pure luck to get its kill.
I wouldn't say hitting two stone edges as "relying on luck." Then, by extension, Mienshao shouldn't have been S-ranked last gen since its main STAB would be considered relying on luck. By your logic, using EQ when your opponent has 1 immunity to it would be considered luck, no? Using Stone Edge predicting Florges is the player's action, whether or not it hits is not up to you, it's rng. Hitting 2 stone edges would be 64% chance. Scald burning is 30%. That means 36% of the time, stone edge will either miss entirely, or hit once. That also means 70% of the scald's will not burn. Considering how reliable Scald is, I wouldn't really consider that being luck.
LO Starmie beats any Florges spread with Hydro Pump + Psyshock. Not walling Chandelure is relavant when it can otherwise break through a stall team. It is impossible to identify Modest or Timis PorygonZ unless you have already been nuked and Florges needs to be in full health to beat it anyway. NP versiona just steamroll through it. NP Azelf is a top tier threat according to the ranking though I have not seen or used it so this may just be on theory and you can ignore this. And I have never said Mega Houndoom checks Florges lol but it cam plow through it.
Mega Houndoom doesn't even need to switch in and out to wear down Florges to beat it. It can just set up on the switch and 2HKO while Florges can only fire out a single weak Moonblast. Florges is more prone to being worn down than many other defensive mons thanks to lack of immediate recovery. When being pressures, Florges often cannot afford to spend two turns healing itself and it DOES stop it from walling. Timid Specs Porygon-Z is an example where a tiny bit of prior damage can cause it to be 2HKOed after rocks.
The attacker may be 'relying on pure luck' to kill but that also means the defender is also relying on pure luck to wall, especially when you are saying hit 2 Stone Edges on a row, which is in favor of the attacker. Since we are now accessing the defender, how Florges needs to rely on 'pure luck' and no prior damage to wall is our concern. Florges is a shaky check to Heracross at best.
Mega Houndoom doesn't even need to switch in and out to wear down Florges to beat it. It can just set up on the switch and 2HKO while Florges can only fire out a single weak Moonblast. Florges is more prone to being worn down than many other defensive mons thanks to lack of immediate recovery. When being pressures, Florges often cannot afford to spend two turns healing itself and it DOES stop it from walling. Timid Specs Porygon-Z is an example where a tiny bit of prior damage can cause it to be 2HKOed after rocks.
The attacker may be 'relying on pure luck' to kill but that also means the defender is also relying on pure luck to wall, especially when you are saying hit 2 Stone Edges on a row, which is in favor of the attacker. Since we are now accessing the defender, how Florges needs to rely on 'pure luck' and no prior damage to wall is our concern. Florges is a shaky check to Heracross at best.
It's very important to note Florges' susceptibility to Psyshock, as that is a defining factor between it and Umbreon. Many otherwise awesome special boosting attackers (NP Mew, NP Azelf, NP Celebi, CM Slowbro, SubCM Cress w/o Moonblast) love using Florges as set-up fodder, and they can do hella damage back to it with boosted Psyshocks. However, Umbreon completely averts this through its typing. Given that this is one of the main ways besides pure power that special sweepers get through walls, it's definitely something to consider.
Yeah I'm going to have to say I support this 100%. Florges is by far one of the bulkiest Pokemon in the tier, and as such can wall a lot of the tier quite easily. Wish in general is a great move, and Florges is one best users of the move in the tier, being able to Wish Pass extremely easily thanks to it's previously mentioned great bulk. Armotherapy is also a great move that Florges has access to, which can help bring you're offensive Pokemon back in the game if they've been Thunder Wave'd/Burned, as well as helping the survivability of walls who have been Toxic'd. It can even run Toxic itself in order to be less vulnerable to set-up sweepers. Also, I think we can all attain to the large amount of Pokemon that Florges flat-out walls. SmashBrosBrawl has discussed this, but the metagames has has to completely adapt around Florges in order to deal with it. And you know what? It still preforms its job amazingly, STILL walling a ton of the tier quite easily.
Also, I don't really like a lot of the arguments people have been bringing up against Florges. EonX- talked about how Florges struggles with some of the main special attackers in the tier, such as the Nido's and Mega Houndoom. However, what doesn't struggle with these threats? I mean, you even said yourself that their are VERY few Pokemon who can reliably switch in on Nidoking at all. Mega Houndoom is another Pokemon that many defensive teams struggle to find an answer to; I personally feel the fact that Florges is losing to it isn't enough to affect it from being S-rank, and DEFINITELY isn't enough to drop it to A rank lol.
C AllStar has also mentioned how Florges struggles with wallbreakers, such as Specs PorygonZ and Specs Chandelure. I, however, would like to challenge you to find a defensive Pokemon bar Snorlax who wants to switch into either of these Pokemon.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew: 214-252 (52.9 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 178-210 (45.1 - 53.2%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Slowbro: 164-194 (41.6 - 49.2%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 193-228 (48.9 - 57.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew: 231-273 (57.1 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Slowbro: 258-306 (65.4 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
So, should we drop all these special walls bar Snorlax because they lose to the most powerful wallbreakers in the entire tier? No, that would be ridiculous. As you can see, every special wall is losing to one of these Pokemon, they're just that powerful.
Also, Kitten Milk , I think it's unfair to say that Herracross/Mieshao can "break" Florges, especially easily as you stated in your post. I mean firstly, even you yourself admit that Poison Jab isn't commonly used on Mienshao. Even if it was, it would still be quite easy to scout for it via Protect. Also, not even Banded Stone Edge from Herracross can reliably beat Florges, something that should just attest to its massive bulk.
One weakness that Florges does admittedly have, however, is a weakness to Psyshock. But besides Nasty Plot Mew/Celebi/Azelf, Calm Mind Slowbro, Starmie, and Gardevoir, their really aren't a who lot of users of these moves. I mean obviously these are Pokemon to watch out for, but they're nothing that team support can't cover.
Anyways, though, I feel as though Florges has all the tools to be S-rank. Honestly, though, I wouldn't be too sad if it were kept A+ rank; it's just that I firmly disagree with it being put in A rank, or lowered at all. But yeah once again sorry if anything I said was incorrect or something, but atm this is just how I feel about Florges.
LightningLuxray, About Florges shaping the meta, I have to challenge that. Like I have said, Nidoking, CroCune, NP Houndoom, and many other powerful sweepers in the tier, whether defensively or offensively, can beat Florges. This is not the issue with Florges. I am saying that regardless whether Florges exists or not, these Pokemon would still run rampant. Anyone who says CroCune or Nidoking is a bad 'Mon has not played UU enough. NP Houdoom with Flame Charge or Destiny Bond can take care of a lot of the tier, including setting up on Pokes suck as Specially Defensive Mew.
You guys are arguing that Florges "walls" a lot of the meta, but it walls a certain mon, which opens itself up for another because it lacks anything else other than being a cleric/wall. For example, Mega Manetric is hard walled by Florges. Great, you stopped a single Pokemon. Now you have to deal with a multitude of other Mons, such as Victini. Victini and Manetric, or any other U-Turner for that matter, are often paired up together specifically for these situations. Florges just walls, and what it cannot wall, it loses to, examples being Swampert or Specially Defensive Hippowdown.
Saying Wish is a great move is okay, I guess, when the fact of the matter is that is Florges' best option. It has Wish, Protect (Like every Poke gets that), Aromatherapy, and Moonblast. Wish is nothing like Recover, and Protect is asking for trouble. Aromatherapy is pretty much the best support move it learns, because passing a wish in UU is not nearly as effective as it once was, with hard hitting threats around, such as Victini, Darm, Mienshao, and Mega-Manetric.
Cress is also bulky, it shrugs off knock off's, and it has an arguably better support movepool, with Thunder Wave, Healing Wish, and Moonlight. In addition, it can wall many special attackers, such as Nidoking, Mega-Mane, and Special Victini. And it even has a useful ability! It can even run a boosting set; however, because of the meta (Things like NP Houdoom and CroCune), I do not see it being S-ranked.
The same way I don't see Florges being S-ranked.
You guys are arguing that Florges "walls" a lot of the meta, but it walls a certain mon, which opens itself up for another because it lacks anything else other than being a cleric/wall. For example, Mega Manetric is hard walled by Florges. Great, you stopped a single Pokemon. Now you have to deal with a multitude of other Mons, such as Victini. Victini and Manetric, or any other U-Turner for that matter, are often paired up together specifically for these situations. Florges just walls, and what it cannot wall, it loses to, examples being Swampert or Specially Defensive Hippowdown.
Saying Wish is a great move is okay, I guess, when the fact of the matter is that is Florges' best option. It has Wish, Protect (Like every Poke gets that), Aromatherapy, and Moonblast. Wish is nothing like Recover, and Protect is asking for trouble. Aromatherapy is pretty much the best support move it learns, because passing a wish in UU is not nearly as effective as it once was, with hard hitting threats around, such as Victini, Darm, Mienshao, and Mega-Manetric.
Cress is also bulky, it shrugs off knock off's, and it has an arguably better support movepool, with Thunder Wave, Healing Wish, and Moonlight. In addition, it can wall many special attackers, such as Nidoking, Mega-Mane, and Special Victini. And it even has a useful ability! It can even run a boosting set; however, because of the meta (Things like NP Houdoom and CroCune), I do not see it being S-ranked.
The same way I don't see Florges being S-ranked.
Ok, I already addressed the points in the first paragraph in my first post so I'm not going to address those.
Yes, I understand that their are Pokemon that can beat Florges. Yes, it's possible. This thing would be BL if you couldn't lol. But with proper team support, you can wall a lot of the Pokemon who tend to wall you. Like, ok, Victini comes in. You can Protect to scout what it's going to do. U-Turn means it's probably Choice and you can stay in, V-Create means you switch to your Victini answer (Which you're going to be running if you're using Florges), and if you see a special attack, you're walling it. It's not really all that hard to play around it... Also the difference between Swampert/SpDef Hippo is they don't have the bulk/reliably Recovery/typing that Florges do. I mean yes they're similar in that they're all walls, but Florges is better then them overall due to the reasons just stated.
Also I understand that Wish isn't the best Recovery move. But when playing with shit like Swampert, Mega Aggron, Cofagrigus, etc, the support Florges provides through Wish is undeniably extremely helpful. I mean yes the meta has a lot of powerful attackers, making it harder to pull of a Wish. But it's far, FAR from impossible, especially if the Pokemon you're passing to have a good amount of bulk.
Finally, yes, Cress can wall shit like Nidoking. But IMO the support moves it has just don't compare to Florges; Aromatherapy/Wish are better than a shitty 8 PP recovery move, Healing Wish, and Thunder Wave.
You definitely do bring up good points though. Florges is having a tougher and tougher time in this meta. A+ Rank may be enough for it, idk. I think I'm going to have to think about this lol.
Yeah, Aromatisse is basically a physically inclined Florges with a great ability. It basically beats what physically defensive Florges beats but better in the cost of lower special bulk. I always prefer to use Aromatisse in stall when Heracross counters are so scarce and Florges is a shaky Heracross check. Other than that it is basically the same as Florges. I completely agree with B+ and won't mind it being promoted higher though I am not sure.
Even though Aromatisse is better at becoming physical defensive than Florges it's still not as strong at that as Florges is with special.
Aroma- 101/72/89
Florges- 78/68/154
Aromatisse is better to share wishes, gets a lot of the same moves but its stats are lesser as Florges. It can boost it's special defense with Calm Mind but that means it's not everything Florges can be having to give up a move. You're going to need an attack (Moonblast is shared), the best incentive is wish more health (Wish+Protect, Toxic if you want to punish other stalls), so you're likely going to give up aromatherapy support for the rest of the team. Florges also gets a better special attack stat, it even has lower physical attack for the sake of blocking foul play.
Honestly, Aromatisse seems like something I personally would use to show my dislike to the overuse of Florges in UU.
(hp/def/spd)
Florges- 78/68/154
Aromatisse is better to share wishes, gets a lot of the same moves but its stats are lesser as Florges. It can boost it's special defense with Calm Mind but that means it's not everything Florges can be having to give up a move. You're going to need an attack (Moonblast is shared), the best incentive is wish more health (Wish+Protect, Toxic if you want to punish other stalls), so you're likely going to give up aromatherapy support for the rest of the team. Florges also gets a better special attack stat, it even has lower physical attack for the sake of blocking foul play.
Honestly, Aromatisse seems like something I personally would use to show my dislike to the overuse of Florges in UU.
I think you're missing the point. Aromatisse isn't running Calm Mind. It uses Wish / Protect / Moonblast / Aromatherapy, a set which has little room for deviation, as Aromatisse pretty much only finds home on stall teams, which appreciate its wish-passing and cleric support. Choosing Aromatisse means choosing something that provides a very solid defense against even the harshest of Fighting- and Dark-type wallbreakers that UU has to offer. While Florges can run the same set and retain much more special bulk, it faces a lot more OHKOs/2HKOs than Aromatisse, due to its significantly lower base HP. Below are quite a few examples. All calcs use 252 HP / 252+ Def spreads for both Aromatisse (A) and Florges (F).
252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Stone Edge
A: (37.9 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
F: (44.1 - 52.2%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Mienshao High Jump Kick
A: (40.3 - 47.5%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
F: (46.9 - 55.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird
A: (59.6 - 70.1%)
F: (69.4 - 81.6%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Waterfall
A: (38.4 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
F: (44.7 - 53%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Flygon Earthquake
A: (44.3 - 52.4%) -- 78.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
F: (51.6 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Krookodile Earthquake
A: (33.2 - 39.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock, 1 layer of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery
F: (38.6 - 45.8%) -- 85.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, 1 layer of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery
A: (37.9 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
F: (44.1 - 52.2%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Mienshao High Jump Kick
A: (40.3 - 47.5%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
F: (46.9 - 55.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird
A: (59.6 - 70.1%)
F: (69.4 - 81.6%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Waterfall
A: (38.4 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
F: (44.7 - 53%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Flygon Earthquake
A: (44.3 - 52.4%) -- 78.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
F: (51.6 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Krookodile Earthquake
A: (33.2 - 39.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock, 1 layer of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery
F: (38.6 - 45.8%) -- 85.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, 1 layer of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery
While Florges can avoid or mitigate the chance of some of the above 2HKOs by using Protect before the second hit, that is never a good tactic to rely on, as it can give a free switch-in to something that forces you out. Not to mention, Aromatisse is able to utilize the same exact prediction tactic. However, its superior physical bulk makes it less inclined to need to, giving it more options for free turns.
Also: Aroma Veil and bigger Wishes
TLDR: Unless you're really itching for that extra bit of mixed defenses on the special side, Aromatisse makes a much better physical wall.
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If florges didnt exist, umbreon and snorlax would be the premier special walls and heracross would be the premier wallbreaker, but as it stands thats not the case. Face it, florges has helped immensily in shaping this tier, stuff rose and dropped in usage because of it, idiotic moves are now standard or at least somewhat common on some pokemon just for the sake of beating florges (sludge wave nidos, iron head kyurem, poison jab mienshao), it defines the meta and should be ranked accordingly: S
Influence on tier =/= Viability. Scarf MoxieCross was an extremely hyped threat last gen and forced people to bring many checks and counters to it. However, it was dropped from S Rank after the hype due to the prevalance of its counters. The problem for Florges is similar. Peole have already adapted it being a defensive threat and commonly runs move for it, making it much less effective in the walling role. To be honest, Suicune has even more influence on the tier and makes checks and counters like Toxicroak, Celebi etc rise in viablity and usage. However, it is still dropped to A Rank. Florges have been less and less effective when it loses to many top threats now and even things it walls can find ways to get around it. A Rank seems suitable for it.
Just because it's necessary for the meta (which is arguable) doesn't mean it defines it. I would argue that it's presence and ubiquity is rather a response to the massive influx of powerful special threats than it is a testament to its brokenness. It's simply the best option (along with Umbreon). That doesn't mean it's flawless, but it does mean that it's inherently going to be seen a lot. Just because something fulfills its role the best out of all related pokemon in the tier does not instantly make it meta-defining and S-Ranked.
Another thing that applies to both pokes, and should be considered, is that Wish-Tect self-healing can easily be mitigated through the use of a roar user (most practically, Empoleon/Mega-Aggron). Protect no longer blocks phazing moves, so you can theoretically switch into one of these guys as Florges tries to heal itself and phaze it back out, forcing it to take more entry damage and limiting its ability to wall your threats. While it is somewhat niche, it's certainly worth mentioning, as Florges' wish is not the unblockable healing that everyone thinks it is.
Another thing that applies to both pokes, and should be considered, is that Wish-Tect self-healing can easily be mitigated through the use of a roar user (most practically, Empoleon/Mega-Aggron). Protect no longer blocks phazing moves, so you can theoretically switch into one of these guys as Florges tries to heal itself and phaze it back out, forcing it to take more entry damage and limiting its ability to wall your threats. While it is somewhat niche, it's certainly worth mentioning, as Florges' wish is not the unblockable healing that everyone thinks it is.
honestly I think the reason Florges is topping the usage charts is because its so damn easy to chuck it on a team without having to think too hard- fairy typing rarely coincides too heavily with any of your other pokemon's weaknesses, and it walls a spectrum of special attackers whilst also meaning you dont have to think too much about status and being worn down. Its great that its so easy for teambuilding and that definitely says something about its effectiveness but I dont think you can read to far into usage. Florges feels like a slight liability in the age of the fire type wallbreaker, and its set is 99% predictable (either toxic or aromatherapy- if both, then its not running protect and is easily broken) and it also has problems against the ever-common nidoking. Also, 78 base hp wishes can be pretty mediocre sometimes.. That being said, I do think Florges is an excellent special wall and it has several good qualities. I think it should stay A+ just because it can do a lot with one set whilst also having the typing and power to not be setup bait to a lot of things (some exceptions like crocune). I would be seriously amazed if it reached S because its never the thing which I fear when I see it in team preview.. defensively, stuff like Slowbro and Alomomola give me the most fear in team preview because they are the counters to the most common mons, have access to burn, can avoid being worn down throughout the match, and have a slew of weird options like mirror coat/ fire blast that always keep me on my toes.
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I agree that S is no place for Florges. A+ or even A would be more appropriate. The Metagame has evolved around it somewhat but it has stayed the same which means people can handle it a lot easier now. It is Mammoth Special Defense yet it still struggles to wall the most common special attackers like Nidoking, Chandelure, Mega Houndoom and Psychic Pokemon like Reuniclus, Azelf & Starmie can just opt for Psyshock to hit its lower Physical Defense.
On the Physical side, while Fairy typing is amazing its stats just don't back it up. It struggles to consistently wall things like Heracross and Mienshao. They even have Knock Off to get rid of its leftovers so they can come back later in the game and more easily beat it. Or Mienshao could just U-turn into a more appropriate match up. Furthermore, WishTect can be very easily be taken advantage of. This isn't to mention that all the Fire Behemoths like Entei, Victini, Darmanitan and Arcanine all switch in without fear and can proceed to Fire off attacks that hit a majority of the tier really bloody hard. So can Chandelure I suppose but a potential Special Attack drop from MoonBlast isn't nice.
I just think the Metagame is a little unkind to Florges at the minute which is probably due to its huge popularity which as Pipotchi has mentioned, is because it is relatively easy to chuck on a team due to lack of weakness stacking.
On the Physical side, while Fairy typing is amazing its stats just don't back it up. It struggles to consistently wall things like Heracross and Mienshao. They even have Knock Off to get rid of its leftovers so they can come back later in the game and more easily beat it. Or Mienshao could just U-turn into a more appropriate match up. Furthermore, WishTect can be very easily be taken advantage of. This isn't to mention that all the Fire Behemoths like Entei, Victini, Darmanitan and Arcanine all switch in without fear and can proceed to Fire off attacks that hit a majority of the tier really bloody hard. So can Chandelure I suppose but a potential Special Attack drop from MoonBlast isn't nice.
I just think the Metagame is a little unkind to Florges at the minute which is probably due to its huge popularity which as Pipotchi has mentioned, is because it is relatively easy to chuck on a team due to lack of weakness stacking.
Thats indeed very a similar situation because i dont agree with those either. If something forces the entire tier to adapt itself and makes previous uu staples like umbreon and snorlax drop in both usage and viability it is metagame defining and thats what makes it one of the best pokemon in the tier. Youre absolutely insane if you think this is not an important factor.
Well no shit it cant wall a wallbreaker, a pokemon that has only one counter and one that can double its special attack in a single turn, if it could i dont even know what we would be discussing. Azelf's standard set is the stealth rock lead that cant be ''walled'' by anything, reuniclus is an irrelevant pokemon, starmie is a fair point. None of this really answers anything though as you just completely ignore all the other dozens of pokemon that florges actually walls HARD. Every pokemon has flaws and florges more than makes up for them by keeping a huge part of the tier in check.
Florges also doesn't function as only a special wall. Aromatherapy support is very nice, and while its wishes aren't massive they're still quite good at keeping the rest of the team healthy; only Umbreon, Vaporeon, Aromatisse and Mega Luvdisc really give it any competition. Florges can also use a Calm Mind set w/ Psychic to beat some of its common switch ins, namely the Nidos, but still loses to a lot of things.
The metagame isnt static though- just because it brought about the current state of the metagame (which is something that I think it did play a part in doing) the current metagame is something which handles it a lot better. You cant rank it as being S tier when its subdued by the current top threats. its even in the first post that you can't base your argument solely on usage and stats because they really dont mean everything.
Wrong, many of florges counters have seen a huge drop in effectiveness (aggron, metagross, doublade) or have been banned (scolipede, diggersby, staraptor, magnezone etc.) and everything that it used to wall is still on the meta or in the case of hydreigon has been brought back. Florges's effectiveness never dropped, not even once, its still as prominent and influential as ever and easily one of the most consistent pokemon in the metagame, theres no reason why it shouldnt be S rank as it perfectly fills the requirement, this has nothing to do with usage stats, this has to do with a pokemon that has been exercising dominance on the tier ever since day 1 due to its many qualities and few drawbacks.
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