Baton Pass - its role in the metagame and possible solutions to nerf full Baton Pass chains

[Shoot For Zero]

they never goddamn alluded to it, it's been stated from the start that there wouldnt be a test. just read, its not that damn hard.

The debate is leaning towards a cap at 3 or 4. This is a grey area. The thread can't possibly gather enough data to decide either way. A cap would need testing. Without a testing on the table, we discount one of the best (and easiest to implement) suggestions to nerf BP chains.

If we decide to ban Speed Boost + Baton Pass on a set (I believe this is the second best option to Punchshroom's Baton Pass clause and far, far ahead of the lazy cap idea) then we need to decide where that leaves a certain anthropomorphic chicken

And for the trillionth time, Speed Boost Scolipede is used in conjunction with Baton Pass chains. Smogon bans for a specific uncompetitive/broken/overcentralizing set, and doesn't concern itself with preserving its other niches. That's why Blaziken was banned, and not Speed Boost.

That's why the discussion on handling BP chains is so important. Banning Speed Boost is still on the table, and is still on the table because it could bring Blaziken back to OU; Smogon kills BP Scolipede sets, and it goes to NU (probably RU) as a potent sweeper/spike setter. And nobody cares about Ninjask :P

Ban Speed Boost + BP on a set and Blaziken stays banned, Scolipede goes to UU, and Ninjask crawls back inside a Shedinja.

 

[everybody]

I don't know how it happened, but the team I am trying to make in my Y version is just crushing every baton pass team that comes in my way! I tested this team on P.O.
Here's some ideas to stop BP teams (feel free to rate too)
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/celebi-in-the-fields-need-help.3501691/#post-5292864
I usually lead with celebi vs. scolipede. Future sight on the sub/protect (never tries to hit me lol). Then I switch to pretty much anyone that can break a scolipede sub, usually mamoswine. 3rd turn: I one-two punch it with an attack+future sight. Even if it baton passes...
1. Celebi can future sight, and has spore immunity
2. Mamoswine has icicle spear to try and break through subs, though it only helps sometimes
3. Zoroark has SNATCH to steal everthying these sad teams try to think of except spore and baton pass, he also has stored power immunity. It doesn't even matter who I illusion. Tentacruel is best, because they just might BP into espeon just to see a dark pulse tentacruel.
4. Speaking of tentacruel, it has Haze.

The only 2 members of the team can't restrain BP, but even then, sylveon could get a yawn off, and mega Aerodactly has SR and good power.
The point is BP isn't broken or dominating. This team was made to be not standard, and it has a very positive W:L ratio even against non baton pass teams, heck I don't even have a set-up sweeper

 

[Over Zealous]

Oh, so if it's used in conjunction with BP chains it needs to be removed?

Here's the thing, you remove the BP chain, you remove Scoli's "Broken-ness" when used in a BP chain. Why ban something that isn't broken. . ?

Ah, Blaziken was banned for an ENTIRELY different reason. . .
After setting up, it's nearly impossible to stop. Priority? What's that? It's THE prime Late Game sweeper.
EDIT: Inb4 you bring up TFlame. That's the only thing able to stop it from running through teams. . .

See the reasons for mKanga getting the boot.

And how do you remove the BP chain? Limiting the chain to its essential core anyways removes the chain? It reduces the chain archetype to a more concentrated half-pass team. Scolipede is still granting the team an auto speed initiative with no effort. Scolipede is still enabling the team to tank physical pressure. Scolipede is still boosting 2 stats simultaneously effortlessly. Scolipede is still able to reboost several times during the match.

Saying Scolipede isn't broken by itself is useless; he isn't used by himself, he's used for overwhelming support. Support that removes autonomy from the game. There's literally nothing you can do to stop him from acquiring at least 2 or 3 stages of speed, with a trivial x2 Def.

A team of 6 Pokemon that can't boost several stats simultaneously or reliably, that must waste 4-5 turns boosting with Agility and Passing for Defence, is still less effective than a core of 3-4 Baton Passers with Scolipede, Espeon, and Smeargle/Sylveon.

Arguments? I'm open.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

I usually lead with celebi vs. scolipede. Future sight on the sub/protect (never tries to hit me lol).

Although I read the rest of your post, I really only needed to stop here. . .
Other than that. . . Snatch Zoroark. . ? And Haze Tentacruel. . .

I'm not sure if I'm reading this correctly. . . But, using these as a means to say BP isn't dominating is eerie. . .

And how do you remove the BP chain? Limiting the chain to its essential core anyways removes the chain? It reduces the chain archetype to a more concentrated half-pass team. Scolipede is still granting the team an auto speed initiative with no effort. Scolipede is still enabling the team to tank physical pressure. Scolipede is still boosting 2 stats simultaneously effortlessly. Scolipede is still able to reboost several times during the match.

Saying Scolipede isn't broken by itself is useless; he isn't used by himself, he's used for overwhelming support. Support that removes autonomy from the game. There's literally nothing you can do to stop him from acquiring at least 2 or 3 stages of speed, with a trivial x2 Def.

A team of 6 Pokemon that can't boost several stats simultaneously or reliably, that must waste 4-5 turns boosting with Agility and Passing for Defence, is still less effective than a core of 3-4 Baton Passers with Scolipede, Espeon, and Smeargle/Sylveon.

Arguments? I'm open.

We agree on everything, up until you get to the point where you don't grasp that Scolipede is not broken! EVERYONE, and I mean damn near everyone, has told you this, Scolipede as a Pokemon is not broken. Therefore it will not get banned. Stop barking up that tree.
It's a lot easier to stop Scolipede and his two side minions than it is to stop an entire team of 6 acting as one.

 

[Over Zealous]

Although I read the rest of your post, I really only needed to stop here. . .
Other than that. . . Snatch Zoroark. . ? And Haze Tentacruel. . .

I'm not sure if I'm reading this correctly. . . But, using these as a means to say BP isn't dominating is eerie. . .




We agree on everything, up until you get to the point where you don't grasp that Scolipede is not broken! EVERYONE, and I mean damn near everyone, has told you this, Scolipede as a Pokemon is not broken. Therefore it will not get banned. Stop barking up that tree.
It's a lot easier to stop Scolipede and his two side minions than it is to stop an entire team of 6 acting as one.

I didn't say Scolipede is broken. I said Scolipede makes Baton Pass uncompetitive by his freely and trivially acquired simultaneous boosts, and ability to reset multiple times in the course of a single match. Scolipede would be banned for his overwhelming support, not because he is broken by himself. Some Pokemon are banned for their unquestionably overwhelming support (see Mega Gengar), some are banned for multiple reasons (see Mega Blaziken), and some are banned just for their general broken offensive ability (see Mega Kanga).

And if you actually read the thread, many have agreed Scolipede is one of the primary problems, and have even advocated the direct ban of Scolipede.

A team of 6 Baton Pass chain was not previously deemed broken or uncompetitive; it's because of Scolipde, mainly, that it is. So if Scolipede is the main problem, why unnecessarily invoke a complex clause/ban if a traditionally Smogon-efficient no-bull-shit-necessary ban will prove best?

A clause of 3 or 4 might be a better solution. No single person can know for sure, but whether a ban of Scolipede, a complex ban, or a clause to make Baton Pass more manageable is still debatable.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

I didn't say Scolipede is broken. I said Scolipede makes Baton Pass uncompetitive by his freely and trivially acquired simultaneous boosts, and ability to reset multiple times in the course of a single match. Scolipede would be banned for his overwhelming support, not because he is broken by himself. Some Pokemon are banned for their unquestionably overwhelming support (see Mega Gengar), some are banned for multiple reasons (see Mega Blaziken), and some are banned just for their general broken offensive ability (see Mega Kanga).

And if you actually read the thread, many have agreed Scolipede is one of the primary problems, and have even advocated the direct ban of Scolipede.

A team of 6 Baton Pass chain was not previously deemed broken or uncompetitive; it's because of Scolipde, mainly, that it is. So if Scolipede is the main problem, why unnecessarily invoke a complex clause/ban if a traditionally Smogon-efficient no-bull-shit-necessary ban will prove best?

A clause of 3 or 4 might be a better solution. No single person can know for sure, but whether a ban of Scolipede, a complex ban, or a clause to make Baton Pass more manageable is still debatable.

mGengar traps things and kills them at little to no cost by himself, alone. Blaziken is a near unstoppable Late Game sweeper, by himself. mKanga is pretty self explanatory. . . None of the three are comparable to Scolipede who relies on it's team mates to keep its boosts around.

I read the thread, I never said Scolipede wasn't a huge problem if not the biggest of the 6 'mons. Maybe you shouldn't assume things. . .

Scolipede brought forth BP chains tenfold, no one can deny that, and it's because it does in fact set up almost too easily. But when you remove Scolipede from its BP'ing environment, it is not "Uncompetitive" in the slightest. Why remove something that alone isn't "Uncompetitive"? Espeon is just as guilty since it prevents any means, outside of Haze, of stopping the set up. . . Ensuring it keeps it boosts for the other 5 members in its team.

I've said this way too many times in this thread, along with many other people. . .

It is not one Pokemon creating this problem, it's an entire team of 6. . .

None of us is saying Scoli isn't a problem in a BP chain. . . But we are saying it isn't the ONLY problem in BP chains.

 

[Terminate421]

I didn't say Scolipede is broken. I said Scolipede makes Baton Pass uncompetitive by his freely and trivially acquired simultaneous boosts, and ability to reset multiple times in the course of a single match. Scolipede would be banned for his overwhelming support, not because he is broken by himself. Some Pokemon are banned for their unquestionably overwhelming support (see Mega Gengar), some are banned for multiple reasons (see Mega Blaziken), and some are banned just for their general broken offensive ability (see Mega Kanga).

And if you actually read the thread, many have agreed Scolipede is one of the primary problems, and have even advocated the direct ban of Scolipede.

A team of 6 Baton Pass chain was not previously deemed broken or uncompetitive; it's because of Scolipde, mainly, that it is. So if Scolipede is the main problem, why unnecessarily invoke a complex clause/ban if a traditionally Smogon-efficient no-bull-shit-necessary ban will prove best?

A clause of 3 or 4 might be a better solution. No single person can know for sure, but whether a ban of Scolipede, a complex ban, or a clause to make Baton Pass more manageable is still debatable.

Because what we are trying to do is stop this "No-bull-shit-necessary" ban from happening.

Banning a pokemon because of what it CAN do is exactly why we didn't ban a large amount of pokemon in the 5th generation when Swift Swim + Drizzle existed. We didn't ban Politoed, we didn't ban Kingdra, we didn't ban alot of things, just the combination Swift Swim + Drizzle. It was effective and yet it was complex.

We WANT to keep the strategy alive but not keep it as strong as it is. Banning Scolipede for what it CAN do is completely ridiculous. Teams use him for other purposes when he is not broken. Instead of being afraid of a complex ban being put in place (Seriously, what is wrong with that happening??) why not experiment with that? We have hit a topic that literally has come down to us looking like complete cowards afraid of change because something became more powerful than our Smogonbirds and Smogon-Washing-Machines came up. I'm not saying don't just do anything (Even though I still feel we should) But we need to approach this differently instead of just Nuking the problem to kill the target individual (We'd want to snipe that target).

Banning something like Scolipede because we're afraid of what it can do in one set that only really works when combined in this kind of Synergy makes all of us look like fucking sheep.

If history repeats itself with a complex ban, then the play-style will be Nerfed and far more manageable at limiting three Pokemon to baton pass.

EDIT: What is wrong with the idea of a complex ban are people just afraid of the word "Complex"

 

[Over Zealous]

Because what we are trying to do is stop this "No-bull-shit-necessary" ban from happening.

Banning a pokemon because of what it CAN do is exactly why we didn't ban a large amount of pokemon in the 5th generation when Swift Swim + Drizzle existed. We didn't ban Politoed, we didn't ban Kingdra, we didn't ban alot of things, just the combination Swift Swim + Drizzle. It was effective and yet it was complex.

We WANT to keep the strategy alive but not keep it as strong as it is. Banning Scolipede for what it CAN do is completely ridiculous. Teams use him for other purposes when he is not broken. Instead of being afraid of a complex ban being put in place (Seriously, what is wrong with that happening??) why not experiment with that? We have hit a topic that literally has come down to us looking like complete cowards afraid of change because something became more powerful than our Smogonbirds and Smogon-Washing-Machines came up. I'm not saying don't just do anything (Even though I still feel we should) But we need to approach this differently instead of just Nuking the problem to kill the target individual (We'd want to snipe that target).

Banning something like Scolipede because we're afraid of what it can do in one set that only really works when combined in this kind of Synergy makes all of us look like fucking sheep.

If history repeats itself with a complex ban, then the play-style will be Nerfed and far more manageable at limiting three Pokemon to baton pass.

It has already been explained how Drizzle+Swift Swim is far different. So different, it's one of the only complex bans for a concrete reason.

We want to keep the strategy (that is a chain) alive, but a clause simply kills the archetype of a chain, and reduces it to a concentrated half-pass.

We aren't 'afraid' of complex bans, and we aren't 'afraid' of what a set can do. Smogon is concerned with finding the root to the problem, and removing the cancer. You may not like how Smogon operates and balances its own simulator, but they do so in the most effective and efficient manner possible. You must ask yourself why Baton Pass suddenly began dominating the ladder? Previously, a 6 man Baton Pass team didn't. So why now? Because players discovered Scolipede's overwhelming support for the chain that not only made it viable on the ladder, but dominating it.

If history repeats itself with a complex ban, the playstyle will be nerfed, but is it the simplest, most efficient solution, and is it necessary?

mGengar traps things and kills them at little to no cost by himself, alone. Blaziken is a near unstoppable Late Game sweeper, by himself. mKanga is pretty self explanatory. . . None of the three are comparable to Scolipede who relies on it's team mates to keep its boosts around.

I read the thread, I never said Scolipede wasn't a huge problem if not the biggest of the 6 'mons. Maybe you shouldn't assume things. . .

Scolipede brought forth BP chains tenfold, no one can deny that, and it's because it does in fact set up almost too easily. But when you remove Scolipede from its BP'ing environment, it is not "Uncompetitive" in the slightest. Why remove something that alone isn't "Uncompetitive"? Espeon is just as guilty since it prevents any means, outside of Haze, of stopping the set up. . . Ensuring it keeps it boosts for the other 5 members in its team.

I've said this way too many times in this thread, along with many other people. . .

It is not one Pokemon creating this problem, it's an entire team of 6. . .

None of us is saying Scoli isn't a problem in a BP chain. . . But we are saying it isn't the ONLY problem in BP chains.

I didn't compare Mega Gengar, Blaziken, and Kanga with Scolipede. I stated Pokemon are banned for different reasons. That's why there's offensive, defensive and support ban definitions.

A clause doesn't "remove Scolipede from its BP'ing environment". With 3 or 4 members, Scolipede still does what it does best, and the opponent can do nothing about it.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

I didn't compare Mega Gengar, Blaziken, and Kanga with Scolipede. I stated Pokemon are banned for different reasons. That's why there's offensive, defensive and support ban definitions.

A clause doesn't "remove Scolipede from its BP'ing environment". With 3 or 4 members, Scolipede still does what it does best, and the opponent can do nothing about
it.

Those Pokemon were banned because they, as individuals, are broken.
Scolipede does not fall under that category.

You're right, but it makes it a bit more manageable. I said this as well, there is no way to please everyone in one fell swoop.
Banning Scolipede is ridiculous since as we've stated, it isn't "Uncompetitive" on it's own. Limiting the number of 'mons doesn't remove the biggest problems in BP teams as much as we'd like, which is why in the beginning I leaned more towards a complex ban. But, I'm really okay with whatever comes of this, as long as something is done.

My point here is, Scolipede is not Uncompetitive. It does not over centralize the metagame, BP Chains do at the moment. . . So, banning Scolipede is unnecessary. . .

 

[Over Zealous]

Those Pokemon were banned because they, as individuals, are broken.
Scolipede does not fall under that category.

You're right, but it makes it a bit more manageable. I said this as well, there is no way to please everyone in one fell swoop.
Banning Scolipede is ridiculous since as we've stated, it isn't "Uncompetitive" on it's own. Limiting the number of 'mons doesn't remove the biggest problems in BP teams as much as we'd like, which is why in the beginning I leaned more towards a complex ban. But, I'm really okay with whatever comes of this, as long as something is done.

My point here is, Scolipede is not Uncompetitive. It does not over centralize the metagame, BP Chains do at the moment. . . So, banning Scolipede is unnecessary. . .

No one is saying Scolipede, by itself, is uncompetitive or broken.

- Support Characteristic
A Pokemon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other Pokemon to sweep.
Scolipede will always provide an overwhelming Baton Pass support for the chain, be it 4 Pokemon or 6. Scolipede's main set will almost always be used over his other sets, and Scolipede will always be paired with the likes of Espeon, Smeargle, Sylveon, etc.

I am not, however, stating a clause won't solve our problem. I'm skeptical it is the most efficient, simple solution.

But we can all agree "something must be done".

 

[Terminate421]

A clause doesn't "remove Scolipede from its BP'ing environment". With 3 or 4 members, Scolipede still does what it does best, and the opponent can do nothing about it.

A little history lesson for you:

Back in 2007 a game called Halo 3 was released by Bungie. In it was a rifle known as the Battle Rifle, a Mid-Long Range Burst fire weapon that was used competitively for it's sheer balance and versatility. Then in mid-2008 Bungie released a play-list known as SWAT which reduced the entire game mode to being about the Battle Rifle and head shots only. Being a burst fire weapon and in a game so heavily dependent on Skill, there were people that were so desperate to get better that they found something they deemed "unskillful". The BURST weapon, had a random integer, the first and third shot to that burst was a consistent number of .08% off the target to .32%, the second shot was always somewhere random in-between. For Almost a month, the entire Bungie support forum was flooded with the topic "FIX THE BR SPREAD" in the hopes that they can "amp up" their skill by making the gun non-random (practically a straight line in terms of it's burst.) Then of course was the Elite Player Model's head Flinching almost everywhere because the hit box was placed differently and there you go, chaos happened when none was there before.

After much play-testing to be certain Bungie concluded to do the following:

Absolutely Nothing.

Why am I telling you this?

Because I need you to consider something, by changing one thing, you're effectively not just "removing the cancer" but also more that goes along with it. There is no easy way to take on this strategy, I get that. There are 83 pages worth of people attempting to figure out what to do. But by bringing this topic up to this level and demanding that we "just ban one pokemon" responsible at this point WILL cause collateral damage that we need to avoid.

Bungie considered altering the gun spread but they realized they'd be changing the entire point of a mid-long range rifle, effectively turning it into a Sniper Rifle capable of being practically the ONLY weapon people use. By killing this play-style we're almost doing the same thing, except by getting rid of the word "mid-long range rifle" and putting "play-style" in it's place. [We'd be Homogenizing the entire simulator because we're afraid of something simple.

I'm not saying "find a counter" I'm saying "lets not smite the entire issue and move on."

I'm not saying do anything either.

After taking several game design courses, I can assure you that as soon as we "fix" this problem, someone will be hell bound on finding a new one.

EDIT: Upon further investigation, if we banned Scolipede, it would not fit anywhere, it's too frail for Ubers so it'd be in a damned Limbo.

 

[Over Zealous]

A little history lesson for you:

Back in 2007 a game called Halo 3 was released by Bungie. In it was a rifle known as the Battle Rifle, a Mid-Long Range Burst fire weapon that was used competitively for it's sheer balance and versatility. Then in mid-2008 Bungie released a play-list known as SWAT which reduced the entire game mode to being about the Battle Rifle and head shots only. Being a burst fire weapon and in a game so heavily dependent on Skill, there were people that were so desperate to get better that they found something they deemed "unskillful". The BURST weapon, had a random integer, the first and third shot to that burst was a consistent number of .08% off the target to .32%, the second shot was always somewhere random in-between. For Almost a month, the entire Bungie support forum was flooded with the topic "FIX THE BR SPREAD" in the hopes that they can "amp up" their skill by making the gun non-random (practically a straight line in terms of it's burst.) Then of course was the Elite Player Model's head Flinching almost everywhere because the hit box was placed differently and there you go, chaos happened when none was there before.

After much play-testing to be certain Bungie concluded to do the following:

Absolutely Nothing.

Why am I telling you this?

Because I need you to consider something, by changing one thing, you're effectively not just "removing the cancer" but also more that goes along with it. There is no easy way to take on this strategy, I get that. There are 83 pages worth of people attempting to figure out what to do. But by bringing this topic up to this level and demanding that we "just ban one pokemon" responsible at this point WILL cause collateral damage that we need to avoid.

Bungie considered altering the gun spread but they realized they'd be changing the entire point of a mid-long range rifle, effectively turning it into a Sniper Rifle capable of being practically the ONLY weapon people use. By killing this play-style we're almost doing the same thing, except by getting rid of the word "mid-long range rifle" and putting "play-style" in it's place. [We'd be Homogenizing the entire simulator because we're afraid of something simple.

I'm not saying "find a counter" I'm saying "lets not smite the entire issue and move on."

I'm not saying do anything either.

After taking several game design courses, I can assure you that as soon as we "fix" this problem, someone will be hell bound on finding a new one.

EDIT: Upon further investigation, if we banned Scolipede, it would not fit anywhere, it's too frail for Ubers so it'd be in a damned Limbo.

I've played Halo competitively through late Halo 3/ODST, Reach and 4, so spare me the "history" lesson. Halo has nothing to do with this forum, and utilizing a first-person competitive shooter to bolster your argument for a RPG strategy is ineffective and meaningless. (And I find it amusing you use an example in which Bungie did nothing, as if Smogon should do nothing as well.)

The OU Council doesn't care if a Pokemon is too frail for Ubers; if it's uncompetitive, broken or overcentralizing and unhealthy to the OU metagame, it will receive the ban-hammer. Smogon doesn't care about "preserving its other sets". If a set is harmful for the metagame, it's gone.

There will be no collateral damage by banning Scolipede. All of Scolipede's other sets are outclassed and obsolete to its ridiculous Baton Pass support.

We're really just deciding the best solution, not the list of solutions.

 

[Terminate421]

I've played Halo competitively through late Halo 3/ODST, Reach and 4, so spare me the "history" lesson. Halo has nothing to do with this forum, and utilizing a first-person competitive shooter to bolster your argument for a RPG strategy is ineffective and meaningless. (And I find it amusing you use an example in which Bungie did nothing, as if Smogon should do nothing as well.)

The OU Council doesn't care if a Pokemon is too frail for Ubers; if it's uncompetitive, broken or overcentralizing and unhealthy to the OU metagame, it will receive the ban-hammer. Smogon doesn't care about "preserving its other sets". If a set is harmful for the metagame, it's gone.

There will be no collateral damage by banning Scolipede. All of Scolipede's other sets are outclassed and obsolete to its ridiculous Baton Pass support.

We're really just deciding the best solution, not the list of solutions.

You don't understand do you?

I pulled the History Lesson as a way to dictate how this shit works. Different games, same principles apply. They didn't do the alterations out of fear that it would Homogenize the entire game to Battle Rifles only throughout every playlist from that point on OUTSIDE of SWAT. YOU are suggesting that we decide to alter the game effectively leading us down the path that might as well say "We ban Y because it's not X". You're burning down the damned house to get rid of a cockroach (I can come up with countless metaphors for this.)

This "too effective" strategy has created some Homogenization to this strategy but it's not that different from the current shit thats in the top 10 of OU right now where everyone packs at least one of those. Talonflame is probably the leading factor in whether not a pokemon is good for OU or not, you don't see the council doing anything about that anytime soon now do you? No, everyone adapted and now Rotom-W is everywhere.

So far every post I've seen from you has been "It requires no skill and autonomy is prominent" because of it. You are not part of the OU council, stop speaking like you are one of them. You are not contributing anything other than "just ban it and lets move on". I've been keeping track of this thread since it started and so far I've been getting that the general consensus is this:

Limiting Baton Pass to a number of users is the most effective way of nerfing it, less Pokemon being able to baton-pass leads to the strategy being viable but also weak enough to be taken down WITHOUT causing collateral.

The number has been thrown up between 3 and 4 since this solution was created.

Pull up one example of a time where this kind of situation has occurred in any other game (Double points if it's Pokemon) and the best course of action was to ban/kill something inside the strategy. I'll even take fucking Starcraft if it's the exact principles. "Something is too effective after individual pieces that are not broken but when grouped together form to be more powerful than what was considered standard."

 

[the-bumper-car]

If you're going to ban Scolipede under the Support characteristic due to his interaction with BP Abuse, you will need to ban Espeon, Sylveon, and maybe Smeargle as well.

When are you guys going to get it that Scolipede isn't the *only* bad guy involved here, but instead the ridiculous synergy that the core of the BP team has with each other? A 6-man BP Abuse team with, say, Smeargle+Zapdos subbing in for Scolipede is still going to be broken, it's just going to be *slightly* weaker to physical attacks/non-scarfed attackers. Stall teams still would have no way to beat it.

 

[Over Zealous]

You don't understand do you?

I pulled the History Lesson as a way to dictate how this shit works. Different games, same principles apply. They didn't do the alterations out of fear that it would Homogenize the entire game to Battle Rifles only throughout every playlist from that point on OUTSIDE of SWAT. YOU are suggesting that we decide to alter the game effectively leading us down the path that might as well say "We ban Y because it's not X". You're burning down the damned house to get rid of a cockroach (I can come up with countless metaphors for this.)

This "too effective" strategy has created some Homogenization to this strategy but it's not that different from the current shit thats in the top 10 of OU right now where everyone packs at least one of those. Talonflame is probably the leading factor in whether not a pokemon is good for OU or not, you don't see the council doing anything about that anytime soon now do you? No, everyone adapted and now Rotom-W is everywhere.

So far every post I've seen from you has been "It requires no skill and autonomy is prominent" because of it. You are not part of the OU council, stop speaking like you are one of them. You are not contributing anything other than "just ban it and lets move on". I've been keeping track of this thread since it started and so far I've been getting that the general consensus is this:

Limiting Baton Pass to a number of users is the most effective way of nerfing it, less Pokemon being able to baton-pass leads to the strategy being viable but also weak enough to be taken down WITHOUT causing collateral.

The number has been thrown up between 3 and 4 since this solution was created.

Pull up one example of a time where this kind of situation has occurred in any other game (Double points if it's Pokemon) and the best course of action was to ban/kill something inside the strategy. I'll even take fucking Starcraft if it's the exact principles. "Something is too effective after individual pieces that are not broken but when grouped together form to be more powerful than what was considered standard."

Except your little Halo and now Starcraft example is useless and irrelevant in this thread. It doesn't illustrate anything; the two games and mechanics are entirely different.

No, Talonflame won't bolster your argument either. Talonflame doesn't overcentralize like the current Baton Pass archetype; you aren't forced to run Rotom-W and Rotom-W isn't Talonflame's only check or counter.

The only consensus we've reached is: Baton Pass requires a nerf. How? That's still debatable. That's why this thread is still open. Limiting the number to 3 or 4 has not been proven the most simple and efficient solution.

If you're going to ban Scolipede under the Support characteristic due to his interaction with BP Abuse, you will need to ban Espeon, Sylveon, and maybe Smeargle as well.

When are you guys going to get it that Scolipede isn't the *only* bad guy involved here, but instead the ridiculous synergy that the core of the BP team has with each other? A 6-man BP Abuse team with, say, Smeargle+Zapdos subbing in for Scolipede is still going to be broken, it's just going to be *slightly* weaker to physical attacks/non-scarfed attackers. Stall teams still would have no way to beat it.

Espeon and Sylveon lack the ability to boost two stats simultaneously, the support to reboost multiple times in a match, and the overall bulk.

 

[jbtc10]

But seriously, the Scolipede argument isn't that convincing. He's obviously really good, but not magnificent, and in many games I find my speed boosts often come from Zapdos, because he has a better typing and bulk to get the job done without having to worry about counters like Talonflame and Pinsir and losing momentum, and has a really nice offensive presence to boot, which makes him a great back-up sweeper and offensive pivot for the team. So I don't see how Scolipede is what is apparently 'pushing BP over the edge' when he definitely has several disadvantages over another BP user which should really be a staple on the team by now anyway. The boosts aren't completely free or trivial when he often has to risk giving away free turns with Protect, burning his HP with Sub which reduces his ability to repeat the process later, and having a pretty decent number of checks. He's good, but being over-exaggerated.

As for Smeargle related complex bans, I said this a couple of pages back, but Mr. Mime and Smeargle (more so the former) are pretty dodgy gimmicks that the team doesn't really need and is usually better off without. Spore is really obvious and isn't reliable at neutralizing a dangerous threat because they can just switch out to something they don't need anyway, and you're often forced to go for the Spore or you lose, like in instances where they have a sweeper of their own which has gotten out of hand. Then they can just bring it straight back in and start boosting against or just hit you hard normally (like with Pinsir). Hazards break his sash and make him useless as a last resort against sweepers too, which does happen often enough to make him dead weight a lot of the time. Ingrain is nice, but against offense which is the most common and difficult match-up, you're usually better off using a boosting move rather than wasting a turn to get some minor passive recovery, which won't be as useful or important as the boost. Smeargle related bans should be out of the question from here on, it's even been shown he can be entirely omitted from the team altogether with no detriment and even an improvement.

 

[Terminate421]

Except your little Halo and now Starcraft example is useless and irrelevant in this thread. It doesn't illustrate anything; the two games and mechanics are entirely different.

No, Talonflame won't bolster your argument either. Talonflame doesn't overcentralize like the current Baton Pass archetype; you aren't forced to run Rotom-W and Rotom-W isn't Talonflame's only check or counter.

The only consensus we've reached is: Baton Pass requires a nerf. How? That's still debatable. That's why this thread is still open. Limiting the number to 3 or 4 has not been proven the most simple and efficient solution.



Espeon and Sylveon lack the ability to boost two stats simultaneously, the the support to reboost multiple times in a match, and the overall bulk.

And yet you didn't listen. We're back to where we started. You tell me I'm wrong with no back-up argument.

I pulled the example FROM OTHER GAMES because it had the same exact principle that needed to be solved: "Something is too effective after individual pieces that are not broken but when grouped together form to be more powerful than what was considered standard."

Your behavior throughout this thread has literally been the same post calling for a flat ban and posting mistakes people made and considering that enough evidence to call for a suspect. Speaking of which, WON'T HAPPEN.

And before you angrily type , "How do you know?" Well I have to ask How do you know they WILL call for a Suspect test? How do you know that my solution WON'T work? I know for a fact that by banning Scolipede, we kill the entire strategy. It won't be manageable, it'd be a push-over, it would fall to the depths of strategies that are called "dead" consistently. How do I know this? Because it hasn't been proven.

Any of this Sound Familiar? There have been a large number of pages on this thread that do.

We've spent two weeks. If anything is to be called, it's a nerf that does not cause Collateral. The strategy stays intact to a degree to where it is potent but not OP, key pokemon/combinations are not banned, and no one has to completely turn upside-down their Pokemon to "counter' it.

EDIT: You've managed to be very rude to people and get away with it. Go ahead and do the same with me. You'll find it less effective.

 

[Terminate421]

Haven't viewed this post in a while, but last time I checked there was a strong argument stating that Baton Pass needed a nerf because of its over-centralizing effect on stall teams. Baton Pass is generally considered too powerful against stall teams, which is why it is in need of a nerf.

If this truly is the reason we are nerfing it (not because we dislike it or think its cheap), then we need to focus on making it weaker against stall specifically. This is my suggestion:
Ban the use of Ingrain on Smeargle. This has been done before in gen 3 and was a great way to reduce the effectiveness of Baton Pass chains then.

Why it works to make Baton Pass weaker against Stall should be rather obvious. Without Ingrain, phasing is a reliable way to beat Baton Pass teams. Now, before you go on and complain about Soundproof or Magic Bounce, please hear me out:

Currently Skarmory, Hippowdon, Mandibuzz, Snorlax, Sigilyph, Volcarona, Aerodactyl and Crobat are all viable users of Whirlwind (some of the latter may not be the best options on stall teams however, so lets focus on the first 4).

Skarmory, Hippowdon, Mandibuzz and Snorlax are all great stall pokemon and great users of Whirlwind. Their only counter on a Baton Pass team is Espeon, who can reflect their phasing. However, each of these Pokemon can beat Espeon in a 1 on 1 situation because they are physical attackers. Espeon cannot stay in to Calm Mind and will eventually die to powerful physical attacks like Brave Bird, Earthquake, Knock Off, and Return. The end result is that mispredicting a few Whirlwinds with Espeon, will quickly lead to a dead Espeon and the Baton Pass team is defeated.

Ahh, but you Espeon can setup against any of the above after a few Defensive boosts! ... So why does Espeon have defensive boosts? Leading with a phaser gives you a huge advantage against Baton Pass teams, if they try to boost, you phase them. If they try to Baton Pass to Espeon, you hit Espeon hard. The match is no longer an auto win, its a skillful mind game that both teams are involved in. If you let Scolipede get boosts, you will be in trouble, so you need to play smart and phase early and often.

Lets look at another great option for stall teams, Red Card. Currently Red Card is best used on Sturdy users like Foretress, Donphan or Skarmory, all of which are gladly placed on a stall team. Now typically Red Card is rendered useless because it isn't activated when you get 1hko and Ingrain prevents phasing anyway. But, without Ingrain, Stall teams and reliably beat Baton Pass. Now, before you go on and complain about how simply phasing a team resets them and doesn't beat them, please hear me out:

Seismic Toss and Nightshade are both common moves on stall teams. They are able to deal significant damage to all Baton Pass users except Vaporeon. Simply spamming Seismic Toss will force the Baton Pass team to take significant damage while acquiring boosts. On the special side, setting up 3 Calm Minds requires Sylveon to take 3 hits at least (assuming you used Vaporeon to pass a sub and protect it on the switch). Another 2 Calm Minds can be acquired from Espeon or Mr. Mime. Now, the Baton Pass is ready to sweep, despite the majority of its team being at relatively low HP. Assuming you need at least 3 Calm Mind boosts to reliably 2hko Chansey, Sylveon and Espeon are probably relatively low health. Now, if you introduce the idea of Red Card at this point, the game is easily won. Sturdy survives the Stored Power, phases the team, and now they must start again. This time, they cannot beat the Seismic Toss / Nightshade spam. Specially, they cannot get enough special boosts to be able to defeat Chansey or Blissey.

Lastly, we should give special mention to Deo-d, who can work well on stall teams. The combination of Knock Off / Seismic Toss + Taunt is a great way to shut down Baton Pass teams. If they switch in Espeon, they will face dying to Seismic Toss before they can Calm Mind enough to kill Deo-D. If they switch out, they face being Taunted. Once Sylveon or Vaporeon is taunted, the stall team can switch to a defensive counter, and start playing aggressive (i.e. putting down hazards or statusing the threat, specifically Sylveon who can hurt Deo-d with Hyper Voice). At this point, the Baton Pass team will likely switch out, to which you ultimately bring back in Deo-D and repeat the process.

In conclusion: If you want a simpler solution to nerf Baton Pass we need to solve a simpler problem. If Baton Pass is overpowered because of its unfair advantage against Stall teams, we should focus on making it weaker to Stall teams. This is most easily done by following the precedent set in Gen 3, and Banning the use of Ingrain on Smeargle. This allows Red Card and Phasing to be used in conjunction with Seismic Toss and Entry Hazards to beat Baton Pass. See above for details.

Hallelujah someone who gets it!

Actually this strategy might just be enough. More testing may be needed but the matter is that by removing the roots (literally), the entire tree can fall down once other issues rise up. Phazing becomes easier and the healing factor is reduced.

Bonus points for remembering the third generation had a meta-game.

 

[Over Zealous]

And yet you didn't listen. We're back to where we started. You tell me I'm wrong with no back-up argument.

I pulled the example FROM OTHER GAMES because it had the same exact principle that needed to be solved: "Something is too effective after individual pieces that are not broken but when grouped together form to be more powerful than what was considered standard."

Your behavior throughout this thread has literally been the same post calling for a flat ban and posting mistakes people made and considering that enough evidence to call for a suspect. Speaking of which, WON'T HAPPEN.

And before you angrily type , "How do you know?" Well I have to ask How do you know they WILL call for a Suspect test? How do you know that my solution WON'T work? I know for a fact that by banning Scolipede, we kill the entire strategy. It won't be manageable, it'd be a push-over, it would fall to the depths of strategies that are called "dead" consistently. How do I know this? Because it hasn't been proven.

Any of this Sound Familiar? There have been a large number of pages on this thread that do.

We've spent two weeks. If anything is to be called, it's a nerf that does not cause Collateral. The strategy stays intact to a degree to where it is potent but not OP, key pokemon/combinations are not banned, and no one has to completely turn upside-down their Pokemon to "counter' it.

EDIT: You've managed to be very rude to people and get away with it. Go ahead and do the same with me. You'll find it less effective.

Again, other games are other games, with different principles and mechanics. It has no nothing to do with the discussion at hand. If you want to argue for or against something, do so, but do so in a useful and relevant manner.

My behavior throughout this thread has been refuting arguments like Shedinja and Haze Murkrow, and supplying my own.

A Suspect Test of Baton Pass might be unlikely, but some sort of testing will most likely take effect. And I don't know any solution will work 100%. It's impossible for any single person to have a 100% sure fix to our problem. But if Smogon sees a complex engineered clause as unnecessary, a more simple and effective solution will be reached.

Your only argument against a potential Scolipede ban (which is in the realm of possibility) is "collateral damage." Smogon doesn't care if "collateral damage" means banning an uncompetitive, broken or overcentralizing Pokemon. "But Scolipede isn't broken!" It's his overwhelming support to the Baton Pass chain. Baton Pass has never been a problem, even with 6 members, until Scolipede.

EDIT: you take valid arguments and refutes for "rudeness". And you blatantly ignore the actual rude posts to me in your lovely bias.

 

[Jukain]

Again, other games are other games, with different principles and mechanics. It has no nothing to do with the discussion at hand. If you want to argue for or against something, do so, but do so in a useful and relevant manner.

My behavior throughout this thread has been refuting arguments like Shedinja and Haze Murkrow, and supplying my own.

A Suspect Test of Baton Pass might be unlikely, but some sort of testing will most likely take effect. And I don't know any solution will work 100%. It's impossible for any single person to have a 100% sure fix to our problem. But if Smogon sees a complex engineered clause as unnecessary, a more simple and effective solution will be reached.

Your only argument against a potential Scolipede ban (which is in the realm of possibility) is "collateral damage." Smogon doesn't care if "collateral damage" means banning an uncompetitive, broken or overcentralizing Pokemon. "But Scolipede isn't broken!" It's his overwhelming support to the Baton Pass chain. Baton Pass has never been a problem, even with 6 members, until Scolipede.

EDIT: you take valid arguments and refutes for "rudeness". And you blatantly ignore the actual rude posts to me in your lovely bias.

Start by arguing points instead of assessing the moral integrity of everyone's statements.

 

[RowDog]

Again, other games are other games, with different principles and mechanics. It has no
Your only argument against a potential Scolipede ban (which is in the realm of possibility) is "collateral damage." Smogon doesn't care if "collateral damage" means banning an uncompetitive, broken or overcentralizing Pokemon. "But Scolipede isn't broken!" It's his overwhelming support to the Baton Pass chain. Baton Pass has never been a problem, even with 6 members, until Scolipede.

I don't see how a singular ban of Scolipede (or just banning Scolipede in general) helps tackle the issue at hand. In the end it fulfils the same role that Ninjask has in past Baton Pass teams with greater reliability and bulk, a bit better offensive presence and the option of passing Defence boosts along with Speed. I don't ever recall a time where Ninjask was being considered as ban worthy, and although Scolipede is by no doubt a greatly better version of Ninjask, I do not believe it is simply broken in itself.

What does Scolipede in the end do for a BP team? Provides relatively quick and easy Defence and Speed boosts. Is Scolipede stoppable? Absolutely. In the end Taunt, Phazing, Haze, Encore, Talonflame and Mega-Pinsir, Infiltrator Crobat and Chandelure can all reliably stop Scolipede from doing its job, and are all OU viable. The main problem is what it BPs to next

There are simple ways of dealing with setup which have been around for quite a while now. The main concern should be when it is next to impossible to stop, and the things which counter BP counters. I feel the attention should be swinging more towards what stops us from preventing these BP chains to begin with: Magic Bounce Espeon and/or Ingrain Smeargle. With these 2 gone BP teams become 1000 times easier for stall to stop BP.

Yeah Scolipede is a pretty bad offender and definitely lifts the strategy, but it is not what makes it broken, because Scolipede in itself is NOT broken!

 

[Lazybeef]

Scince haunter has already stated on page 76 that the nerf will be on limiting the number of pokemon with BP on one team (3 or 4), we should probably discuss that instead of whether to ban certain pokes. Just saying.

If we limit BP to 3 pokes, baton pass will not be broken at all anymore , I think everyone can agree on that.

The REAL question is: Are BP teams with 4 pokes with BP broken?

With 4 pokemon you will have scolipede, espeon, sylveon and smeargle/zapdos. The other 2 pokes will likely be a BP-receiver and one filler. Maybe some form of anti-lead?

Like this, you are pretty much forced to run a receiver, as that will maximize the amount of bulk you can put into your actual baton pass chain. Having a receiver will allow you to essentially have 5 pokemon in your baton pass chain. This chain still has a very nice amount of bulk and can still net some easy matchup wins, but not to the same degree as before. A BP chain with 4 pokemon will probably fall to most well built offensive teams unless played well.

Now the question is: is a chain of 4 Pokemon broken against stall teams? As we know, the biggest victim of BP are stall teams. I pretty much never run stall, so it would be great if anyone who commonly runs stall to share his/her experiences on that.

 

[Mango Smoothie]

To whoever brought up talonflame and rotom-w, rotom-w was used before talonflame existed.

Im fully behind a limit of 3, but the uber support definition does raise a good point. Scolipede is definitely one of the big problems within baton pass chains, although im not denying that scolipede isnt the only problem.

- Support Characteristic
A Pokemon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other Pokemon to sweep.

My question is just, even outside of baton pass, doesnt scolipede fit into that category? Unlike other sub-set up pokemon, breaking the sub as soon as it's set doesnt stop it from gaining boosts. All it has to do is outspeed you and it can pretty much guarantee +3 or 4 speed, and that is if you are constantly firing off attacks. If your attack misses or you dont immediately attack, it can safely get another 1-2 speed as well as swords dance or iron defense without much trouble, and being capable of passing those almost trivial boosts to a sweeper probably 1-2 times is a bit concerning. I'm not saying that scolipede is broken in and of itself, but the fact that it can quickly accumulate boosts and pass them that easily is somewhat troubling.

 

[RowDog]

Mango Smoothie can't Ninjask do a very similar thing? And since when was that deemed broken?

 

[Galladium]

I'm conviced that the best solution is to limit the use of the move Baton Pass to a given number of Pokémon on each team. What I'm really not sure about is whether that number should be 3 or 4.

Haunter has already said that we're going to limit the amount of Baton Passers on a team, so there's no real point arguing about Scolipede as of now. What we need to discuss is whether to limit the number of Baton Passers on a team to 3 or 4.