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You see a Scolipede in the Team Preview? It means you can take the chance to setup at its face as well, and potencially destroy de Baton Chain before it begins (or reach the third mon, at least). Here's an example: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-115773799
BTW, this is my first XY team. It definetly wasn't made with Baton Passers in mind.
Tiodani (and anyone else), if you're posting a replay to prove your point, make sure it's from a 1760+ Glicko battle. Replays from the bottom of the ladder are totally irrelevant here.
Srn9130 You are certainly correct that many mons can setup along side you, however, since scolipede usually is faster, he will almost always get his boosts first. Furthermore, relatively few physical mons can ohko given equal boosts. Lastly, scolipede can pass to whoever he feels like, so if the enemy decides to get into a setup race with scoli, scoli will always at least get a pass off, leaving it to the recipient to counter the opposing setuper. Let us use your megamaw example...
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Iron Head vs. +2 252 HP / 252 Def Scolipede: 106-126 (32.7 - 38.8%) -- 99.3% chance to 3HKO
Since scoli outspeeds even without speed invest or speed boosts, no prediction is required here. This means that megamaw's only option is to boost along side scoli. Since scoli is unlikely to stay out once he hits +6, the next calc is kinda irrelevent, but since it is generally agreed that his phys bulk is mediocre, it's a helpful base case.
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Iron Head vs. +6 252 HP / 252 Def Scolipede: 211-249 (65.1 - 76.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Now think of all the mons that actually have good phys bulk, such as dnite, gyrados, charizard, entei, and a slew of other good mons that can come in on what is essentially a +0 megamaw incapable of setting up. They now have essentially a free swap in. However, unlike most times when you swap in a counter, this time the opponent is screwed because he is now facing a powerful offensive threat that is essentially invincible on the physical side as well as having near infinite speed. Do you know how many threats would kill to have that? Think of all the dragons that hate ice shard, think of all the mons that can be revenged by CB tflame, think of all the teams that rely on priority or scarfers to take out boosted threats that outspeed and kill their team, those options are now GONE. Literally your only hope is that the mon that swapped into mega-maw either does not boost and you have a mon that can phase it, OR that the mon that swapped into mega maw gets cocky, tries to boost, and gets 2hko'd by megamaw. That's way too good of a win condition for the reliability in which scolipede gets his boosts.
The reality of the situation is that it will likely take more then a single ban to balance BP. I have been focusing on iron-defense scolipede because 1. I feel he's more broken then anyone else on BP and 2. Because trying to advocate 2 bans at the same time would confuse others, points would've likely gotten mixed up, and I feel that it would've been more effective to argue for one ban at a time. As you have stated, banning iron defense scoli balances BP verses offense, which is one of our goals. The other goal is to balance it versus defense. Offense and defense are two very different things, and it would be folly to assume that one thing breaks an archetype against both of them.
First off, scolipede is not broken because there exists mons that he cannot setup on. Every mon has opponents that he cannot setup on, even e-killer arceus. What makes scolipede broken is the ridiculous number of mons he CAN setup on. I love how you are assuming that scoli can only be led and cannot come in after a mon is killed. Scolipede works as a lead simply because he is able to setup in front of the vast majority of the OU tier, which makes him broken. If it were any other pokemon, you would be laughed at for trying to lead with your setup sweeper, but scolipede manages to work because in the vast majority of it's matchups, it can pass its +2 defense and speed and still have enough HP to do so a second time. The fact that he cannot setup in front of tflame is irrelevant, one of the calcs I showed tflame being unable to counter scolipede because if it swaps in on an iron defense, it fails to come close to ohkoing, even with SR up. It isn't just some offensive teams that have difficulty breaking through scolipede, ALL OF THEM DO, because the vast majority of things that can kill speed boosted threats are physically based.
You have also suggested that espeon is a bigger problem for stall then ingrain smeargle (it sure as heck ain't more broken then scolipede for anything but stall, there is no long list of uber mons that espeon can successfully setup calm mind in front of and live to tell the tale). I personally disagree. I believe ingrain smeargle is broken versus stall because it requires only one free turn to make the entire team immune to phasing, forever. Ingrain also makes it much harder to wear down espeon through scald burns, weak phys attacks and s-toss, due to essentially doubling lefties healing. Espeon is powerful, but the reason it is balanced is that it needs to be out in order to block most of stall's weapons. Ingrain smeargle only needs one free swap in in order to permanently remove one of stalls greatest weapons and greatly hinder the other. Wearing down espeon is stall's win-con vs BP, once espeon is gone, stall basically auto-wins. Ingrain makes it too difficult to wear down espeon, breaking the matchup.
To further support my point, here's a replay where a stall player would have won had it not been for ingrain.
Why didn't you say you wanted Ingrain Smeargle banned as well in the first place? Your argument just went from terrible to actually valid. I'd be all right with a ban of those two; it keeps BP from being a dead playstyle while giving standard stall and offense teams a good chance to beat it. (Of course, it's still an easy mode playstyle and your probably aren't that good if you're using it =P). 3 BP chain is also pretty valid, though, so either of these bans would work out fine for me
Hiding from the massive weather wars since they have a history of being weak against huge special pressure? Pretty sure this was answered several times already.
Lets pretend for a second that the only change is Scolipede getting speed boost and fling this team into gen 5 :
252 SpA Ninetales Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Scolipede in Sun: 356-422 (109.8 - 130.2%)
Keep in mind that he has nasty plot too, so you cant even safely get speed boosts, then pass and calm mind (or vice versa).
Vaporeon wont be using acid armor either against sun teams for very obvious grassy reasons of the solar variety.
Good luck facing rain teams too, with perish song lead, stab hydros everywhere, 120 bp thunder and stab hurricane, all of which make your turns boosting defense a pain, but you will need them against Azumarill.
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Espeon in Rain: 271-319 (99.6 - 117.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
You would basically be at a disavantage against 2 of the most popular strategies instead of "auto winning" against a large number of teams if perma weather was still a thing this gen.
Where was Baton Pass in X/Y before the Swag ban?
Hitting their own faces once or twice trying to switch into a counter, causing the entire chain to collapse. The only thing that can stop this is Espeon, who is weak to foul play. You cant even get rid of your atk boosts if you do manage to pass during prankster confusion, so yeah. Alternative answer : Using swagger themselves. Most Swagplay users just jumped into the next copy-paste team that required almost no skill to function.
All major threats to BP are gone, a new type is immune to D-Tail, you wont face 5 layers of hazards without a spinner, etc.
There are many, many new variables, so stop pretending a hidden ability is the only relevant thing that happened this gen in BP's favor.
It's undeniably true Weather dominated Gen V. You made cold hard facts: too many threats to Baton Pass were common in Gen V, where it has since vanished, with or without Scolipede. However, your calculations are not only irrelevant, but unfair.
Ninetales vs Scolipede would be a poor matchup for the Sun user. You can calculate all day how Fire Blast OHKOs Scolipede, but Fire Blast has no chance of touching Scolipede, even in superpowered Gen V meta. Between Protect and Substitute, not even Sun Boosted Ninetales can stop Scolipede from doing its job: freely acquiring max Speed at x4. Wasting a turn to Nasty Plot is not only a grave mistake, but a blatantly stupid risk: it affords Scolipede the free turn to Iron Defence or Substitute. With a Substitute, Smeargle can freely switch in, x2 SpA, sun-boosted STAB Fire Blast makes no matter. Scolipde also easily outstalls Fire Blast's PP, and a single missed attack means Scolipede can pass a Substitute or x2/3 Def. This not only provides the Baton Pass chain momentum, but advantage: Spore Ninetales or the switch in (Grass is not immune to Spore in Gen V's meta), and proceed to Quiver Dance at least twice. Rain or Sun, Baton Pass is then able to Calm Mind once or twice between several other members, and facilitate a sweep with the special and physical bulk to survive even the fastest of enemies.
It's also true Perish Song is a counter-measure to Baton Pass, and woefully underutilized this Generation, with poor distribution besides. But it is not an actual counter to Baton Pass, especially on account of Mr Mime. It's also true Mr Mime's typing changed this Gen, now immune to Dragon-Tail, alongside Sylveon. But even in a Gen V meta where Sylveon doesn't exist and Mr Mime is pure Psychic, Dragon Tail has poor distribution, finding little room on the super-fast paced and hyper offensive Rain and Sun teams. Nevertheless, the move is 90% accurate, which misses at inopportune times, and stopped by Substitute. With a trivially acquired x2 or 3 Def, the Substitutes can be difficult to break. On account of Ingrain, Dragon-Tail, like other phasing, fails.
100% Thunder and Hurricane might sound brilliant in obliterating Baton Pass, but Gliscor can switch in completely immune to Thunder, and between a Substitute, bulk investment and defensive boosts, Gliscor can force the abuser out or defeat it outright.
I will not deny Gen V's sheer weather-dominate hyper offensive pressure put Baton Pass on the bench, but let's accurately and reasonably consider Scolipede in Gen 5's meta. And putting Scolipede into Gen V's meta is useless and meaningless besides.
And no one should pretend a Hidden Ability is the absolute reason for Baton Pass' ladder dominance and overcentralization of the current metagame. It's not just Speed Boost; it's Scolipede's overall overwhelming support for the chain. It's his ability to max Speed and possibly Def, and do so several times, with little to no effort at all. It's his unique bulk, simultaneous auto-boosts, and Uber-like support. Still, is Scolipede the sole, absolute reason? No. But he is the main factor, the root of the problem, the overall main problem.
Many people seem to think Baton Pass received many boons this Generation when it is not so. In reality, Baton Pass received Sylveon, Mr Mime's retyping, and Scolipede. Others also add Baton Pass received subtle boons with its main counters falling into obscurity, like Perish Song Politoed, Rain offense, etc. but Baton Pass also received subtle nerfs, like Grass immune to Spore, and now Whirlwind and Roar hitting through Protect. And, as already argued, even Perish Song in Gen 5 was uncommon and niche, and stands as no absolute counter to Baton Pass.
I know replays, even 100 of them, do not stand as definitive proof of anything. But I'd like to share another replay, not to help me argue, but just to illustrate and show viewers Scolipede's overwhelming support, even in the rain. First, mistakes are made between me and my opponent; mispredictions, overpredictions, even a suboptimal Kingdra set. But in this match, I faced many counters to a Baton Pass team: Encore, Perish Song, Trick Scarf Rotom, Rain offensive pressure (STAB 100% Thunder, STAB Rain-boosted Scald, fast Volt Switches) etc and ridiculous hax. I realize I had the capacity to stall out the Rain count, but my opponent had no problem renewing and keeping Rain in play. And while I do admit mistakes are inevitably made in the heat of battle, even by high ladder players, some moves are ambiguous and context-based, like Politoed's Scald on turn 26 wasn't necessarily a mistake on account of a potential Mr Mime switch. My opponent instead opted to keep the Rain-boosted pressure, and possibly burn Espeon. I do realize on turn 28, Kingdra's suboptimal set is felt, Signal Beam a huge mistake. But a STAB Hydro Pump could have missed, and Espeon was already at x2 SpD.
Towards the end of this replay, we see Baton Pass' greatest of counters come into play: hax. Jirachi resists Stored Power beautifully, and haxes with Thunder, not only getting the paralysis and nullifying my 1.5x Speed, but haxes on paralysis at least 2 more times, on top of numerous Psyshock and Volt Switches.
Again, this replay proves nothing, but rather illustrates Scolipede's overwhelming support presence, and ensures the Baton Pass team can overcome most of its counters. Remember: there's next to nothing that can stop Scolipede from setting up at least Speed. Even Prankster Taunt can't, due to Protect and Mental Herb.
I have a question; what are we trying to save by limiting Baton Pass and not outright banning it? Why is it so wrong to throw the simplest solution to this problem out of the window? Baton Passing boosts is already considered a cheap strategy that is only used by bad players, so why are we keeping it around? The "legit" uses of Baton Pass are either borderline gimmicks (Quick Passing with Scolipede) or used by to escape Pursuit trapping on Pokemon that are outclassed (Espeon). It might have been addressed why earlier in this thread why Baton Pass should stay, but I don't remember. I honestly don't know how a blanket ban would affect lower tiers since I only play OU, but we never jumped through so many hoops before to try to keep something around when everyone already hates it.
I have a question; what are we trying to save by limiting Baton Pass and not outright banning it? Why is it so wrong to throw the simplest solution to this problem out of the window? Baton Passing boosts is already considered a cheap strategy that is only used by bad players, so why are we keeping it around? The "legit" uses of Baton Pass are either borderline gimmicks (Quick Passing with Scolipede) or used by to escape Pursuit trapping on Pokemon that are outclassed (Espeon). It might have been addressed why earlier in this thread why Baton Pass should stay, but I don't remember. I honestly don't know how a blanket ban would affect lower tiers since I only play OU, but we never jumped through so many hoops before to try to keep something around when everyone already hates it.
Because "legit" is a subjective concept, based on what people want the metagame to be. How can it not be legit when it's part of the game, not cheating, and not luck based? Just because you think it's not fun to play against? Well, most people think stall is a pain in the ass to play against, should we ban it?
The only thing that matters is whether or not it's overpowered.
Because "legit" is a subjective concept, based on what people want the metagame to be. How can it not be legit when it's part of the game, not cheating, and not luck based? Just because you think it's not fun to play against? Well, most people think stall is a pain in the ass to play against, should we ban it?
The only thing that matters is whether or not it's overpowered.
Last time I checked, Auto-Win scenarios before a match starts is pretty broken. Baton Pass has started to get out of control and now many BPers have reached OU status based on usage (apparently, my internet's being stupid and can't check myself). Not only is it broken, it was very few good counters and is starting to overcentralize the meta.
Last time I checked, Auto-Win scenarios before a match starts is pretty broken. Baton Pass has started to get out of control and now many BPers have reached OU status based on usage (apparently, my internet's being stupid and can't check myself). Not only is it broken, it was very few good counters and is starting to overcentralize the meta.
Are you talking about 6-pokemon bp chains, or anything involving bp? I don't think every single strategy involving bp gets auto-win scenarios before the match starts.
Last time I checked, Auto-Win scenarios before a match starts is pretty broken. Baton Pass has started to get out of control and now many BPers have reached OU status based on usage (apparently, my internet's being stupid and can't check myself). Not only is it broken, it was very few good counters and is starting to overcentralize the meta.
Baton Pass doesn't auto-win. It's a move that simply allows the user to switch out, with advantages over manual switches; momentum, boost passing, evading Pursuit and other forms of trapping.
A Baton Pass chain does exacerbate the matchup component, undeniably, but it doesn't auto-win before a match starts. It needs an auto-booster, with the user making virtually no mistakes in order to counter all of its counters meticulously. Again, a full Baton Pass chain is incredibly fragile, self-defeated by a single mistake, or broken various ways by the opponent. It's when the chain guarantees auto-Speed initiative with no effort, with simultaneous boosts with no effort, and supports the chain infinitely with no effort. No, Smeargle isn't broken, neither is Ingrain.
The point of this thread: not to kill Baton Pass as a strategy or playstyle, merely nerf it.
Baton Pass doesn't auto-win. It's a move that simply allows the user to switch out, with advantages over manual switches; momentum, boost passing, evading Pursuit and other forms of trapping.
You're right the move doesn't auto-win, I'm sure that's apparent. But at team preview if the opponent doesn't have nothing for it, then it sure as hell is.
In this scenario, it is essentially the "Win button" that used to be joked about.
You're right the move doesn't auto-win, I'm sure that's apparent. But at team preview if the opponent doesn't have nothing for it, then it sure as hell is.
In this scenario, it is essentially the "Win button" that used to be joked about.
The move doesn't auto-win, so banning the move is unnecessary and unfair.
Auto-Win: clicking "play" and instantly winning 100% of the time, with no player able to influence that decision.
Baton Pass, the strategy, doesn't auto-win. Yes, it exacerbates the matchup component: the opponent either has 2 or more counter-measures, or most likely loses. Fortunately, there are many Baton Pass counter-measures, ways to deal with Baton Pass the strategy, way to disrupt or defeat the chain. Unfortunately, these counter-measures are greatly diminished further in the face Uber-like support, an auto and simultaneous booster like Scolipede.
The solution Smogon comes up with must accomplish as follows: make Baton Pass, the strategy/playtyle more manageable for the metagame as a whole. This means: leave the Baton Pass strategy viable and efficient, keep the archetype/playstyle intact, but nerf it in a way as to prevent overcentralization and/or an unhealthy metagame.
Without Uber-like support, Baton Pass, the strategy and playstyle is still a threat, a viable and efficient strategy/playstyle, and must be considered when teambuilding as anything on the respective threat list, but less so than currently. All players should consider Baton Pass when teambuilding, but should retain the freedom and creativity to run their own checks/counters, with the notion of manageability.
Of course certain archetypes will intrinsically have more trouble against some styles than others, but Baton Pass must only be rendered more manageable for the metagame, without hindering its development.
So what are we losing if we blanket ban Baton Pass? 2 Pokemon (one of which is outclassesd outside of BP chains) lose one of their tools, and maybe stuff in lower tiers (again, I don't play anything but OU so I don't know). What can we potentially lose if we just nerf it and keep BP chains alive? We could end up with a meta full of 3 BPers + filler, which is still enough to fuck over defensive teams and can cause a shift to even more Hyper Offense teams. Do you want another Gen V? Do you want to see BP EVERYWHERE on the ladder? Do you want to have to run shitty counters or go Hyper Offense? I'm pretty sure not everyone wants that. The cost of banning BP is more tangible than the than the unpredictable but potentially worse cost of keeping it around.
And before any of you say this is a slippery slope, it's not. We have a somewhat similar scenario that has happened before (Swift Swim + Drizzle ban to nerf rain) with horrible results (an overcentralized and shitty meta). Get this shit out of our game.
So what are we losing if we blanket ban Baton Pass? 2 Pokemon (one of which is outclassesd outside of BP chains) lose one of their tools, and maybe stuff in lower tiers (again, I don't play anything but OU so I don't know). What can we potentially lose if we just nerf it and keep BP chains alive? We could end up with a meta full of 3 BPers + filler, which is still enough to fuck over defensive teams and can cause a shift to even more Hyper Offense teams. Do you want another Gen V? Do you want to see BP EVERYWHERE on the ladder? Do you want to have to run shitty counters or go Hyper Offense? I'm pretty sure not everyone wants that. The cost of banning BP is more tangible than the than the unpredictable but potentially worse cost of keeping it around.
And before any of you say this is a slippery slope, it's not. We have a somewhat similar scenario that has happened before (Swift Swim + Drizzle ban to nerf rain) with horrible results (an overcentralized and shitty meta). Get this shit out of our game.
To answer your question bluntly, a lot. We lose Baton Pass the move across all Pokemon and all tiers, and we lose the strategy of Baton Pass across all teams, and we lose the Baton Pass archetype across all styles of play.
Notice how Swift Swim + Drizzle is a complex ban, not a blanket ban. Notice how Swift Swim wasn't banned, nor Drizzle nor Rain Dance. Notice how the Swift Swim + Rain strategy, playstyle and archetype was kept in play, just merely nerfed.
Baton Pass, the move, does not warrant a ban and neither does the strategy. It just needs a nerf, whether that nerf is best as a clause or other complex ban, or the direct ban of its biggest and greatest support tool.
The move doesn't auto-win, so banning the move is unnecessary and unfair.
Auto-Win: clicking "play" and instantly winning 100% of the time, with no player able to influence that decision.
Baton Pass, the strategy, doesn't auto-win. Yes, it exacerbates the matchup component: the opponent either has 2 or more counter-measures, or most likely loses. Fortunately, there are many Baton Pass counter-measures, ways to deal with Baton Pass the strategy, way to disrupt or defeat the chain. Unfortunately, these counter-measures are greatly diminished further in the face Uber-like support, an auto and simultaneous booster like Scolipede.
The solution Smogon comes up with must accomplish as follows: make Baton Pass, the strategy/playtyle more manageable for the metagame as a whole. This means: leave the Baton Pass strategy viable and efficient, keep the archetype/playstyle intact, but nerf it in a way as to prevent overcentralization and/or an unhealthy metagame.
Without Uber-like support, Baton Pass, the strategy and playstyle is still a threat, a viable and efficient strategy/playstyle, and must be considered when teambuilding as anything on the respective threat list, but less so than currently. All players should consider Baton Pass when teambuilding, but should retain the freedom and creativity to run their own checks/counters, with the notion of manageability.
Of course certain archetypes will intrinsically have more trouble against some styles than others, but Baton Pass must only be rendered more manageable for the metagame, without hindering its development.
I wasn't saying BP should be banned at all. I've been saying it should be limited to a certain amount of BP carriers since I got here. I agree that BP as a move should not be banned.
But it is in fact in some cases, an "auto-win" right at the team preview.
The definition you used to define "Auto-win" is tailored to your point. It's more like, "When a player plays against a deck [in this case team] that he/she has very little chance at losing".
It doesn't mean you win 100% of the time, it just means in that match up, you have pretty much automatically won because they can't stop you at what you're doing. . .
To answer your question bluntly, a lot. We lose Baton Pass the move across all Pokemon and all tiers, and we lose the strategy of Baton Pass across all teams, and we lose the Baton Pass archetype across all styles of play.
Notice how Swift Swim + Drizzle is a complex ban, not a blanket ban. Notice how Swift Swim wasn't banned, nor Drizzle nor Rain Dance. Notice how the Swift Swim + Rain strategy, playstyle and archetype was kept in play, just merely nerfed.
Baton Pass, the move, does not warrant a ban and neither does the strategy. It just needs a nerf, whether that nerf is best as a clause or other complex ban, or the direct ban of its biggest and greatest support tool.
"We lose baton pass if we ban baton pass."
Care to give any SPECIFIC examples? What Pokemon depend on Baton Pass so much to be usable? Also, I never said that Swift Swim + Drizzle wasn't a complex ban (I thought people knew and it was implied), and it did nothing stop Rain dominating Gen V. Swift Swim being removed from the picture didn't change the basic strategy: spam Rain-Boosted Hydro Pumps until you win. A "nerf" will still leave Baton Pass with enough tools to potential remain dominant, and I personally do not want to take the risk to wait until the end of Gen VI before we decide to test it because we "nerfed" it like Rain.
Srn9130 You are certainly correct that many mons can setup along side you, however, since scolipede usually is faster, he will almost always get his boosts first. Furthermore, relatively few physical mons can ohko given equal boosts. Lastly, scolipede can pass to whoever he feels like, so if the enemy decides to get into a setup race with scoli, scoli will always at least get a pass off, leaving it to the recipient to counter the opposing setuper. Let us use your megamaw example...
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Iron Head vs. +2 252 HP / 252 Def Scolipede: 106-126 (32.7 - 38.8%) -- 99.3% chance to 3HKO
Since scoli outspeeds even without speed invest or speed boosts, no prediction is required here. This means that megamaw's only option is to boost along side scoli. Since scoli is unlikely to stay out once he hits +6, the next calc is kinda irrelevent, but since it is generally agreed that his phys bulk is mediocre, it's a helpful base case.
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Iron Head vs. +6 252 HP / 252 Def Scolipede: 211-249 (65.1 - 76.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Just for clarification, you'd be boosting alongside scolipede, not attacking without boosts while it sets up in front of you. So the first calc, along with that first paragraph, is pretty irrelevant.
Next, it's not really about OHKO'ing the current pokemon. Sure, it'd be nice if you had that power, but that's not the point. Let's paint a little scenario to show this:
Here, 3 turns have passed: Mega mawile has set 3 swords dances and Scolipede has set 3 iron defenses:
This means that, after 3 turns, mega mawile is at +6 attack, and scolipede is at +6 defense.
Now, Scolipede can attempt to set up a sub, but mega mawile will break it. Scolipede can protect, that's cool. Obviously can't iron defense, it's at +6. So, all that scolipede can do is baton pass its +6 boosts in defense to another pokemon, probably vaporeon.
Now let's see how much damage a +6 mega mawile does to a +6 vaporeon.
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. +6 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 273-322 (58.8 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Ok, so what can Vaporeon do? It can't sub, it'll break! It can scald, but unless it gets the burn it dies, and it won't OHKO. It can't acid armor, it already has +6. So all it can do is baton pass the boosts in hopes that another member avoids the 2hko.
But no other member will avoid the 2hko. No other member is OHKO'ing mega mawile. All you can do is baton pass the boosts in vain as your entire team is 2hko'd and then swept.
Now think of all the mons that actually have good phys bulk, such as dnite, gyrados, charizard, entei, and a slew of other good mons that can come in on what is essentially a +0 megamaw incapable of setting up.
None of those mons even have decent physical bulk except for gyarados, but ok, let's move on.
And by +0 megamaw incapable of setting up, you mean that mega mawile has +6 and that the switch in will have +6. That was worded in a confusing manner, but that's fine, moving on.
They now have essentially a free swap in. However, unlike most times when you swap in a counter, this time the opponent is screwed because he is now facing a powerful offensive threat that is essentially invincible on the physical side as well as having near infinite speed. Do you know how many threats would kill to have that? Think of all the dragons that hate ice shard, think of all the mons that can be revenged by CB tflame, think of all the teams that rely on priority or scarfers to take out boosted threats that outspeed and kill their team, those options are now GONE. Literally your only hope is that the mon that swapped into mega-maw either does not boost and you have a mon that can phase it, OR that the mon that swapped into mega maw gets cocky, tries to boost, and gets 2hko'd by megamaw. That's way too good of a win condition for the reliability in which scolipede gets his boosts.
How is it a free swap in? You have to baton pass to a teammate, and they have to take the actual hit before they can do anything. Furthermore, if they don't avoid the 2hko or kill mawile in the following turn (which might not even work thanks to sucker punch), then you have to baton pass into ANOTHER team member who you think will avoid the 2hko, which won't.
So since you don't realize this, your whole argument is pretty dumb.
Not to mention that being "invincible on the physical side" doesn't count when the opponent has +6 attack and you have +6 defense.
You speak as if Scolipede is having a significant offensive presence on baton pass teams or something.
The pokemon that swapped into mawile will be below 50%, unable to boost (because it's already at +6 defense) and cannot phaze because it will be 2hko'd before it can do so.
Again, you have forgotten that the recipient of the +6 defense boosts has to take a hit from +6 mega mawile. It has to avoid a 2hko, or be able to OHKO, and only opposing mega mawile, mega scizor, and Zapdos with heat wave are able to fulfill the following conditions. Even Zapdos is risky because it just dies to sucker punch right after.
The reality of the situation is that it will likely take more then a single ban to balance BP. I have been focusing on iron-defense scolipede because 1. I feel he's more broken then anyone else on BP and 2. Because trying to advocate 2 bans at the same time would confuse others, points would've likely gotten mixed up, and I feel that it would've been more effective to argue for one ban at a time. As you have stated, banning iron defense scoli balances BP verses offense, which is one of our goals. The other goal is to balance it versus defense. Offense and defense are two very different things, and it would be folly to assume that one thing breaks an archetype against both of them.
2. Because trying to advocate 2 bans at the same time would confuse others, points would've likely gotten mixed up, and I feel that it would've been more effective to argue for one ban at a time.
So you're saying that we need to make stall a totally invalid playstyle so that we avoid confusing others. Really?
2 (or more) simple bans combined is a complex ban buddy, and that's exactly what you claim to be avoiding.
And besides, excuse me for "being folly," but that's exactly what we're trying to do here! We're trying to find one thing that breaks the archetype against both offense and defense. I realize earlier I suggested banning espeon+magic bounce, but not only is that complex, that only really saves stall from baton pass. Offense is still getting the short end of the stick, despite having a better match up naturally.
And yes, again excuse me for "being folly," but I believe we've found a way to break baton pass against both offense and defense: Limiting the number of members with baton pass. It's really just that easy. You could bring 2 ubers down to OU of your choice, but if it's only 2 pokemon, then the chances are that even those 2 uber pokemon aren't gonna be winning 100% of the time against OU teams unless you spam geoxern.
First off, scolipede is not broken because there exists mons that he cannot setup on. Every mon has opponents that he cannot setup on, even e-killer arceus. What makes scolipede broken is the ridiculous number of mons he CAN setup on.
When did I say scolipede was broken? lol
I even admitted how it can indeed set up on several pokemon in the OU tier.
I love how you are assuming that scoli can only be led and cannot come in after a mon is killed. Scolipede works as a lead simply because he is able to setup in front of the vast majority of the OU tier, which makes him broken.
If scolipede is getting a free switch-in, that means that 1. you have no speed boosts or 2. a member of baton pass just died.
Yes, if we are to assume that baton pass wins 6-0 (and it almost always does), then It's correct for me to assume that scolipede cannot come in after a mon is killed. Because when a mon is killed, you're in a very bad position.
If it were any other pokemon, you would be laughed at for trying to lead with your setup sweeper, but scolipede manages to work because in the vast majority of it's matchups, it can pass its +2 defense and speed and still have enough HP to do so a second time.
I really doubt a good player applying decent offensive pressure is going to leave a scolipede with wnough HP do set up again. Scolipede is quite incredibly frail without boosts ya know.
The fact that he cannot setup in front of tflame is irrelevant, one of the calcs I showed tflame being unable to counter scolipede because if it swaps in on an iron defense, it fails to come close to ohkoing, even with SR up.
First off, no smart player is going to set SR on a baton pass team, so that's irrelevant
Second, if you see a scolipede on the opposing team, that's a sign to automatically tell you to lead with talon. Are you seriously telling me that a smart player is leading with a pokemon that can't hurt scolipede against baton pass? Because that's the only way that "talonflame doesn't counter scolipede," which is pretty much false anyway.
It isn't just some offensive teams that have difficulty breaking through scolipede, ALL OF THEM DO, because the vast majority of things that can kill speed boosted threats are physically based.
Hello. Are you telling me that no offensive team out there can break through a measly scolipede, even after an iron defense.
Are you telling me that special threats commonly seen on offensive teams, like Keldeo, Charizard-y, and NP thundurus cannot break through scolipede?
While you're true that revenge killers are usually physically based, you're so badly overhyping scolipede at this point.
No seriously just take a moment to ingest what you've said.
You're telling me that scolipede, a bug/poison pokemon with 60/89/69 bulk without reliable recovery, is taking on every offensive threat in the OU metagame.
You have also suggested that espeon is a bigger problem for stall then ingrain smeargle (it sure as heck ain't more broken then scolipede for anything but stall, there is no long list of uber mons that espeon can successfully setup calm mind in front of and live to tell the tale). I personally disagree. I believe ingrain smeargle is broken versus stall because it requires only one free turn to make the entire team immune to phasing, forever. Ingrain also makes it much harder to wear down espeon through scald burns, weak phys attacks and s-toss, due to essentially doubling lefties healing. Espeon is powerful, but the reason it is balanced is that it needs to be out in order to block most of stall's weapons. Ingrain smeargle only needs one free swap in in order to permanently remove one of stalls greatest weapons and greatly hinder the other. Wearing down espeon is stall's win-con vs BP, once espeon is gone, stall basically auto-wins. Ingrain makes it too difficult to wear down espeon, breaking the matchup.
To further support my point, here's a replay where a stall player would have won had it not been for ingrain.
I can see your point of how ingrain is nice against stall.
But is ingrain preventing taunt? Or encore? How about Spore, or any other status move (granted you should have a sub up, but magic bounce makes it less necessary, which is nice)? Or what about Leech Seed? How about every hazard move?
Ingrain is only helping against phazing, there are many more things stall has up its sleeve to hinder baton pass that won't work as long as espeon is here.
"We lose baton pass if we ban baton pass."
Care to give any SPECIFIC examples? What Pokemon depend on Baton Pass so much to be usable? Also, I never said that Swift Swim + Drizzle wasn't a complex ban (I thought people knew and it was implied), and it did nothing stop Rain dominating Gen V. Swift Swim being removed from the picture didn't change the basic strategy: spam Rain-Boosted Hydro Pumps until you win. A "nerf" will still leave Baton Pass with enough tools to potential remain dominant, and I personally do not want to take the risk to wait until the end of Gen VI before we decide to test it because we "nerfed" it like Rain.
Ok, so first of all baton pass will not get a blanket ban, so stop saying that. Also u shudnt compare the rain nerf to this, because the most possible nerf is to limit the amount of baton passers, which restricts baton pass MUCH more than the swift swim and drizzle complex ban did to rain. Then the whole play isnt broken, because there is the variants of semi passing, that has no reason to get banned, but still some people use. So start focusing on how to nerf it instead of just arguing and exagurating of sth that simply wont happen!
So what are we losing if we blanket ban Baton Pass? 2 Pokemon (one of which is outclassesd outside of BP chains) lose one of their tools, and maybe stuff in lower tiers (again, I don't play anything but OU so I don't know). What can we potentially lose if we just nerf it and keep BP chains alive? We could end up with a meta full of 3 BPers + filler, which is still enough to fuck over defensive teams and can cause a shift to even more Hyper Offense teams. Do you want another Gen V? Do you want to see BP EVERYWHERE on the ladder? Do you want to have to run shitty counters or go Hyper Offense? I'm pretty sure not everyone wants that. The cost of banning BP is more tangible than the than the unpredictable but potentially worse cost of keeping it around.
And before any of you say this is a slippery slope, it's not. We have a somewhat similar scenario that has happened before (Swift Swim + Drizzle ban to nerf rain) with horrible results (an overcentralized and shitty meta). Get this shit out of our game.
Full BP is gay and cancerous, agreed, and while I'd love to rip the root of the problem out like we did with Swagger, it just doesn't make sense. BP actually does have quite a few uses; Psychic-types like Celebi (yes, it's pretty irrelevant nowadays, but still) use it to escape Pursuit users; SmashPass, Speed Boost, and Quiver Dance passers rely on it to do their job; it can be used in a similar fashion to U-turn or Volt Switch to retain momentum; and it can be used on boosters to pass their gains (though it's admittedly rare for boosters to want to give up that last moveslot). All in all, Baton Pass has many more uses outside of passing AIDs between a chain.
The move doesn't auto-win, so banning the move is unnecessary and unfair.
Auto-Win: clicking "play" and instantly winning 100% of the time, with no player able to influence that decision.
Baton Pass, the strategy, doesn't auto-win. Yes, it exacerbates the matchup component: the opponent either has 2 or more counter-measures, or most likely loses. Fortunately, there are many Baton Pass counter-measures, ways to deal with Baton Pass the strategy, way to disrupt or defeat the chain. Unfortunately, these counter-measures are greatly diminished further in the face Uber-like support, an auto and simultaneous booster like Scolipede.
The solution Smogon comes up with must accomplish as follows: make Baton Pass, the strategy/playtyle more manageable for the metagame as a whole. This means: leave the Baton Pass strategy viable and efficient, keep the archetype/playstyle intact, but nerf it in a way as to prevent overcentralization and/or an unhealthy metagame.
Without Uber-like support, Baton Pass, the strategy and playstyle is still a threat, a viable and efficient strategy/playstyle, and must be considered when teambuilding as anything on the respective threat list, but less so than currently. All players should consider Baton Pass when teambuilding, but should retain the freedom and creativity to run their own checks/counters, with the notion of manageability.
Of course certain archetypes will intrinsically have more trouble against some styles than others, but Baton Pass must only be rendered more manageable for the metagame, without hindering its development.
This guy talks alot of sence. This is the way to solve the problem so everybody trying to suggest blanket ban or scolipede/espeon ban or magic bounce/speed boost ban should think twice, because that would have consequenses that will not only make bp impossible (except for speed boost ban), but also make certain things that have no reason to be restricted nerfed. There are some good alternatives on how to act. My favourite ones is banning the max amount of baton passers and to ban scolipede from doing iron defence (can only be used for semi passing offense).
Yeah, I'm starting to think the better idea here is limiting the number of Baton Pass users per team to 4 or 3, since it really makes the choice of who gets to pass stat buffs more significant, and limits the BP team's options, making it easier to handle.
Yeah, I'm starting to think the better idea here is limiting the number of Baton Pass users per team to 4 or 3, since it really makes the choice of who gets to pass stat buffs more significant, and limits the BP team's options, making it easier to handle.
Yeah, well im also starting to feel thats the more popular opinion. If i would rank the 3 things that are possible to happen and good solutions i would rank: 1. Banning scolipede plus iron defence 2. Banning the max amount of baton passers to 4 (3 will make it too weak/fragile) 3. Banning ingrain
I think all these ways solve the problem in different ways so its for people to judge what would be the best choice, since all these options keep baton pass as a valid playstyle as it is meant to be kept.
Yeah, well im also starting to feel thats the more popular opinion. If i would rank the 3 things that are possible to happen and good solutions i would rank: 1. Banning scolipede plus iron defence 2. Banning the max amount of baton passers to 4 (3 will make it too weak/fragile) 3. Banning ingrain
I think all these ways solve the problem in different ways so its for people to judge what would be the best choice, since all these options keep baton pass as a valid playstyle as it is meant to be kept.
All of the options you stated still leaves baton pass with an incredible match-up against stall, which isn't fair at all. If we are to nerf baton pass, we are to make it manageable by any archetype (including stall).
This was touched on slightly further up the page, but I want to expand. For anyone who thinks baton pass teams are uncommon on the higher ladder, please take a look at the changes from last month (1760). You can see scolipede as well as Espeon, Sylveon, Smeargle, and Vaporeon all rose a considerable amount this month.
Ninetales vs Scolipede would be a poor matchup for the Sun user. You can calculate all day how Fire Blast OHKOs Scolipede, but Fire Blast has no chance of touching Scolipede, even in superpowered Gen V meta. Between Protect and Substitute, not even Sun Boosted Ninetales can stop Scolipede from doing its job: freely acquiring max Speed at x4.
Guess which pokemon can also do that with the exact same efficiency? Ninjask.
Stop switching Scolipede's job back and forth from defense+speed to just speed whenever it suits you.
Wasting a turn to Nasty Plot is not only a grave mistake, but a blatantly stupid risk: it affords Scolipede the free turn to Iron Defence or Substitute.
Pretty sure trying to use ID in front of something that can one shot you with a simple flamethrower, even at max spdef investiment, constitutes a blatantly stupid risk. Losing the match trying to get +2 def has a pretty bad risk-reward for the Scolipede. You cant "afford" to ID, just substitute, and the more you sub hoping for a NP instead of protecting, the more health you lose and the less likely it is for your opponent to nasty plot.
Werent you the one who said D-dancing (3 times, no less) in front of a Scolipede, even after it had a substitute up, was not an obvious mistake?
I didnt even say you should be nasty plotting against Scolipede, just that it makes even the gathering of speed boosts or calm minds risky, since the only answer to this is switching smeargle to spore and can only be done once without free subs. Zero if Ninetales had lum berry instead of lefties.
Ninetales is also commonly seen with flamethrower, needing at least 24 turns to outstall, roar, which will need perfect prediction again and substitute, which removes the only "safe" method of dealing with a boosting Ninetales, specially if he has flamethrower/solar beam/NP/sub.
Let me guess : you will not only predict his entire set, but every play during the entire match and manage to safely spore him anyway, right?
For someone who doesnt want anyone using prediction to get an advantage during obvious passes to magic bounce, soundproof to soak perish song or even setting up during protect turns, you sure as hell love using prediction as an argument.
And the argument for Taunt, Encore, etc is terribly easy to destroy; Scolipede scouts Taunt/Encore with Protect and still acquires a stage of speed, outpaces and Baton Passes to a Magic Bouncer.
100% Thunder and Hurricane might sound brilliant in obliterating Baton Pass, but Gliscor can switch in completely immune to Thunder, and between a Substitute, bulk investment and defensive boosts, Gliscor can force the abuser out or defeat it outright.
...Are we talking about the same thing? You're not even supposed to have a Gliscor. Did you just trade Sylveon for yet another physical wall just so he can cover Vaporeon's weakness to thunder? Either you have no special walls or you already swapped out at least 1/3 of the team without warning, meaning you can continue to morph Scolipede's team to deal with everything in a heartbeat.
Its also under the rain. Against a team filled with special water and ice moves.
There is absolutely no way this is going to work unless it was a choiced move or you had a sub up/lots of calm minds already, but a subbed Gliscor with infinite speed already means doom to everything not immune to toxic.
Again, this replay proves nothing, but rather illustrates Scolipede's overwhelming support presence, and ensures the Baton Pass team can overcome most of its counters.
Overwhelming support means at least +1~2 speed... and baton pass teams can surely overcome most of its counters with just +1~2 speed...
So the logical solution is banning the best quick passer and not the strategy that needs only +1 speed to be broken. What?
