Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

[Baharoth]

Sylveon is easily the second best Cleric in the tier right now and even the best for balanced teams. Clef is the better overall mon due to its flexibility but as a Cleric it cant hold a candle to Sylveon. BP has absolutely nothing to do with its ranking, Zapdos aside its probably the best stand alone poke found on BP.

I dont realy get what the discussion about BP is supposed to do though. Gary already said the VR Thread wont promote anything because of its BP role and this thread is only following the VR thread so whats the discussion good for? As long as the moderation of both threads doesnt find a consensus about how to handle the matter we should just skip the topic.

 

[Red Cat]

I'm going to wade into the BP discussion because I think there is a point that has been missed in this discussion.

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. (emphasis mine)

A Baton Pass team is basically a team of Pokemon who are all able to support the other members of the team with boosts, eventually leading to both an unstoppable sweeper and an unbreakable wall at the same time. Pokemon on Baton Pass teams definitely do not give the opponent free turns, and their flaws are mitigated by their substantial strengths; that's what makes them so effective at their supporting roles. I think there is a valid argument that Scolipede, Espeon, Sylveon, and Vaporeon are all S rank supporting threats under this definition. You could possibly also include Smeargle, Zapdos, etc. in the S rank too, but they have flaws which cause some people to use other Baton Passers, so maybe they should be ranked lower.

 

[theV8man]

I'm going to wade into the BP discussion because I think there is a point that has been missed in this discussion.

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. (emphasis mine)

A Baton Pass team is basically a team of Pokemon who are all able to support the other members of the team with boosts, eventually leading to both an unstoppable sweeper and an unbreakable wall at the same time. Pokemon on Baton Pass teams definitely do not give the opponent free turns, and their flaws are mitigated by their substantial strengths; that's what makes them so effective at their supporting roles. I think there is a valid argument that Scolipede, Espeon, Sylveon, and Vaporeon are all S rank supporting threats under this definition. You could possibly also include Smeargle, Zapdos, etc. in the S rank too, but they have flaws which cause some people to use other Baton Passers, so maybe they should be ranked lower.

Does any other Pokemon in S rank need 3-4 specific teammates to support them in order to be good? If a team was completely built around Pinsir or Mawile, they could seem like S rank threats on that team...

My dude, any Pokemon with the necessary amount of boosts can sweep the whole metagame. ANY Pokemon.

 

[Tressed]

I'm going to wade into the BP discussion because I think there is a point that has been missed in this discussion.

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. (emphasis mine)

A Baton Pass team is basically a team of Pokemon who are all able to support the other members of the team with boosts, eventually leading to both an unstoppable sweeper and an unbreakable wall at the same time. Pokemon on Baton Pass teams definitely do not give the opponent free turns, and their flaws are mitigated by their substantial strengths; that's what makes them so effective at their supporting roles. I think there is a valid argument that Scolipede, Espeon, Sylveon, and Vaporeon are all S rank supporting threats under this definition. You could possibly also include Smeargle, Zapdos, etc. in the S rank too, but they have flaws which cause some people to use other Baton Passers, so maybe they should be ranked lower.

Uh... Tons of stuff can stop them from boosting properly. Anything other than Espeon is shut down by Roar, Taunt, Whirlwind, and Perish Song, while Espeon can't deal with offensive pressure at all. Apart from Espeon, they all need Scolipede's Speed boosts in order to get out before being murdered by the switch in. Espeon and Scolipede are the only mons I feel could even be considered as self sufficient, thanks to their Speed. The others are entirely dependant on Scolipede to get going, since they'll get forced out before they can BP otherwise.

The only way you can even think of sending any of those to S Rank is if you put the entire team up there, as a unit, and I don't think that's a thing.

 

[New World Order]

I'm going to wade into the BP discussion because I think there is a point that has been missed in this discussion.

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. (emphasis mine)

A Baton Pass team is basically a team of Pokemon who are all able to support the other members of the team with boosts, eventually leading to both an unstoppable sweeper and an unbreakable wall at the same time. Pokemon on Baton Pass teams definitely do not give the opponent free turns, and their flaws are mitigated by their substantial strengths; that's what makes them so effective at their supporting roles. I think there is a valid argument that Scolipede, Espeon, Sylveon, and Vaporeon are all S rank supporting threats under this definition. You could possibly also include Smeargle, Zapdos, etc. in the S rank too, but they have flaws which cause some people to use other Baton Passers, so maybe they should be ranked lower.

I can't tell if you're joking or not. A Pokemon that needs 5 other teammates to be able to support properly should never ever be an S Rank Pokemon.

 

[rachet67]

Ok, we need to stop responding to every post re-igniting the Espeon/BP debate. Pretty much everything's been said on the previous page and I doubt anything else is going to effect their ultimate decision. Just earlier today some mod was deleting the recent BP posts.

Edit: sorry, alexwolf, didn't mean to do that

 

[alexwolf]

Ok, we need to stop responding to every post re-igniting the Espeon/BP debate. Pretty much everything's been said on the previous page and I doubt anything else is going to effect their ultimate decision. Just earlier today some mod was deleting the recent BP posts.

Please no mini-modding. As long as the discussion about Baton Pass stays in the context of the viability of each of those Pokemon and where they should be ranked, it's fine. It's only been 1-2 days since the discussion started and the viability of each Baton Pass member is a big subject, so no need to shut it down so early.

 

[The Lonely Alula]

I don't get why everybody is saying that Espeon (or any other BP Pokemon) needs a whole team to support them. You could also reasonably say that Espeon supports 5 different Pokemon by itself, as it's their main win condition and also provides calm mind boosts and magic bounce support, and without that support, Baton Pass teams can't do anything. Sure you could use Absol and an Eeveelution in conjunction instead of Espeon, but then you'd miss out on having Smeargle or Mr. Mime or Zapdos.

That being said, I don't think Espeon or most other Baton Pass Pokemon should move into the A or S ranks because they're not all that reliable and just about every Pokemon on a Baton Pass team is naturally frail and struggles to stay alive even with all of the Defense boosts, not to mention weaknesses to taunt, phazing, (<-- if Espeon isn't in) haze, perish song, being worn down. I think somewhere in the B ranks would be best for Espeon (and maybe Smeargle) and C+ would probably be all that Vaporeon would need to move, if at all. Scolipede could probably either go to A- or stay in B+.

tl;dr - BP Pokemon do not need a whole team to support them because they also support a whole team of Pokemon. However most Baton Pass Pokemon shouldn't move above B.

 

[Red Cat]

Okay, I got a lot of responses so I will try to address them all. The purpose of Pokemon on a Baton Pass team is to support other Pokemon, not to have other Pokemon support them. All Scolipede and Vaporeon do is support others, they can't do anything themselves, but it is not their job to do so. Their job is to pass Speed and Defense boosts and they are extremely effective at doing so. Espeon and Sylveon have the job of passing Calm Mind boosts before they are ultimately called upon to sweep and they are very effective at doing so. It doesn't really matter that all of the members on a Baton Pass team except Espeon are affected by Taunt and Phazing; if they pass the necessary boosts to Espeon, they have accomplished their mission. There is a reason there was a thread with over 2,300 posts discussing nerfing BP. Each member of a Baton Pass team performs its role very reliably against most opponents.

The fact that Baton Passers need teammates should not play into their viabilty ranking. Supporters need good teammates to support by default; that doesn't automatically prevent them from being S rank. Deoxys-D can't do shit by itself, but it performs a very important support function for its teammates and does so very reliably, so it is S rank. Baton Passers do the same thing.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

Sylveon is easily the second best Cleric in the tier right now and even the best for balanced teams. Clef is the better overall mon due to its flexibility but as a Cleric it cant hold a candle to Sylveon. BP has absolutely nothing to do with its ranking, Zapdos aside its probably the best stand alone poke found on BP.

Could you please explain to me what exactly makes Clefable such a bad cleric? Because I've honestly used Clefable as a cleric on a few teams before, and never once have I thought, "Man, Clefable sucks at using Heal Bell. I sure wish I had a Sylveon right now."

 

[MrCookiepants]

Could you please explain to me what exactly makes Clefable such a bad cleric? Because I've honestly used Clefable as a cleric on a few teams before, and never once have I thought, "Man, Clefable sucks at using Heal Bell. I sure wish I had a Sylveon right now."

The only difference as far as I can tell, is that Sylveon has more special bulk and some offensive presence as a cleric. So while Clef isn't bad in this role, Sylveon is just slightly better.

 

[skies]

I think Magic Guard completely trumps anything, as does Unaware. I've only used offensive Clefable, but these abilities > Pixilate any day imo.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

Sylveon hits a lot harder without boosts with Pixilate Hyper Voice. By a lot. It also has more special bulk. I would say Clefable is overall better in the meta, as it can fill more roles (Sylveon has Cleric and Specs, Clefable has like five sets or some shit) but I wouldn't say it completely eclipses Sylveon.

 

[the-bumper-car]

Mr. Mime is unarguably the worst mon on BP teams, right? He's the number one reason why limiting BP Chain teams to only 5 Baton Passers isn't a good enough nerf, as dropping him won't be such a major loss. He's just so redundant on a typical BP team outside of countering Perish Song.

Yes, he's immune to Dragon Tail, but so is Sylveon, who is a better switch-in/pass receiver to potential Dragon Tail users thanks to actually being able to threaten them with a Hyper Voice.

Yes, he's immune to Roar, but so is Espeon, who is also immune to Whirlwind.

Yes, he's immune to Pixilate Hypervoice, but when your team is in a situation where you'd be receiving those, you're either facing a mirror match BP Team (in which case Mr. Mime is going to be useless anyway) or you're facing an offensive Sylveon or M-Gardevoir, in which case you're kinda in trouble since both these mons will wreck your team thanks to being able to set-up with impunity alongside your passes, and Mr. Mime won't be able to stop them aside from maybe Encoring them?

His ability to encore is outweighed by the fact that he is complete Taunt bait, and that having him on your BP Chain team doubles your weaknesses to Steel, Ghost, and Poison, and he is the perfect opportunity for Quagsire or Unaware Clefable to come in and do their thing thanks to his lack of offensive presence. He's also a huge liability when things don't go as planned for a BP Chain team and he is forced out by an unexpected Phazing move or a wrong switch/pass/click, as he is probably the BP Chain mon least capable of restarting a BP Chain.

 

[chive]

Could you please explain to me what exactly makes Clefable such a bad cleric? Because I've honestly used Clefable as a cleric on a few teams before, and never once have I thought, "Man, Clefable sucks at using Heal Bell. I sure wish I had a Sylveon right now."

Really? I tried using Clef as a cleric and wasn't really happy with it... And I'm probably the biggest Clefable fanboy in this thread. Its only edge over Sylveon imo are its abilities, maybe Moonlight if you don't plan to run Wish/Protect to free up a moveslot, and maaaaaaybe its superior movepool if you need one specific move to hit one specific poke. But overall I think Sylveon is the superior cleric. It doesn't completely outclass Clefable, but I think it's better in most cases .

 

[Rotosect]

95/73/90 defenses aren't that impressive and plenty of pokemon can 2HKO Clefable with unboosted attacks, meaning that more often than not it will be busy healing itself rather than supporting team mates.
Sylveon's 110/65/130 defenses unquestionably make it a better cleric, so it is in no way "outclassed" by Clefable in that role.

 

[Baharoth]

Could you please explain to me what exactly makes Clefable such a bad cleric? Because I've honestly used Clefable as a cleric on a few teams before, and never once have I thought, "Man, Clefable sucks at using Heal Bell. I sure wish I had a Sylveon right now."

Well if its only about Hell Bell I guess Clef can get it done properly as well, its more about the wish passing part where Clef gets the short stick.

The problem is simply that Clefables bulk is mediocre at best, even with full investment, and its offensive presence without boosts and LO is sub par as well. That means that it usually takes quite alot of dmg when coming in (you will have a hard time finding a physical attacker that cant deal 40%+ dmg to physical defensive clefable, LO/CB boosted attackers usually 2hko and with Unaware and rocks on the field basicly every physical attacker threatens to 2hko as well as most special attackers) and once it got in its hard for Clef to get a Wish of to heal something else. It doesnt force switches as much as Sylveon does so it generates less free turns and due to its mediocre bulk it cant just come in, take a hit, use wish and switch out as easy as Sylveon can.

 

[Eievui-Nymphia]

Deoxys-D requires the support of an HO team to do his role very effectively (an a HO appreciates the support of Deoxys-D).

Unlike thungs that MLucario (when it was allowed), Aegislash, Charizard (the Megas) or Thundurus, it can't fit a team so easy without team support.

 

[Hclegend]

Deoxys-D requires the support of an HO team to do his role very effectively (an a HO appreciates the support of Deoxys-D).

Unlike thungs that MLucario (when it was allowed), Aegislash, Charizard (the Megas) or Thundurus, it can't fit a team so easy without team support.

Errr... Don't the Zards appreciate having SR off the field? I think that'd require SOME support. Slash appreciates having Fire/Ground types out the way, hell MLucario doesn't like having Psychics in the way of it's sweep and so on. Saying that Deo-D requires support because it has no offensive presence (or at least that's what I assume you're getting at) is kinda odd, as all Pokemon require SOME form of support. (And if you want offensive presence, use Deo S and slap Superpower/Psycho Boost on as a suicide lead) Of course Deo-D likes not getting raped by Bisharp (Nothing likes getting raped by Bisharp), but it makes up for it by reliably setting hazards (like a fucking boss I must say)
Edit: and forming the DeoSharp core. Forgot that part

 

[jbtc10]

Deo-D's S-rank is questionable in itself, since the main reason it has been given that rank is for its role as a suicide hazard setter. To be honest, I haven't been liking that role much lately because it really feels as though you're starting the game 5-6 just to get Stealth Rock and maybe a layer of Spikes up (and Spikes aren't as good as they used to be), when you could be using an offensive setter like Lando etc which can do much more than just that and have much needed extra offensive presence for your team and some nice resistances and immunities which gives your team better pivoting ability. There are also a lot of really good hazard removers in the tier who can easily undo all those turns in one, and players know what to expect and how to deal with the obvious as hell defiant users.

 

[Baharoth]

Errr... Don't the Zards appreciate having SR off the field? I think that'd require SOME support. Slash appreciates having Fire/Ground types out the way, hell MLucario doesn't like having Psychics in the way of it's sweep and so on. Saying that Deo-D requires support because it has no offensive presence (or at least that's what I assume you're getting at) is kinda odd, as all Pokemon require SOME form of support. (And if you want offensive presence, use Deo S and slap Superpower/Psycho Boost on as a suicide lead) Of couse Deo-D likes not getting raped by Bisharp, but it makes up for it by reliably setting hazards (like a fucking boss I must say)

Your right, everything needs some support thats why pokemonbattles are made with teams. The amount of support is different though and how well the pokemon works with out it is also a factor. Aegi for example can play around or outright beat most mons that are supposed to deal with him. Charizards want SR removed but with every team running hazard removal for the sake of the team as whole its not like that support is only there for them. Deo-D on the other hand is worthless without Bisharp and Aegi, the hazards it lays down would be removed immediatly without those 2 blocking it. There is a reason why spikes are hardly used at all outside of HO teams. The turns used to set them up are wasted if you cant keep them on the field for a while.

alexwolf whats the point discussing BP members if their ranking isnt going to change anyway because Gary refuses to make changes in the VR thread?

 

[Hclegend]

Deo-D's S-rank is questionable in itself, since the main reason it has been given that rank is for its role as a suicide hazard setter.

Well yeah, it's the best hazard setter in the entire meta. I think that's a good selling point.

To be honest, I haven't been liking that role much lately because it really feels as though you're starting the game 5-6 just to get Stealth Rock and maybe a layer of Spikes up (and Spikes aren't as good as they used to be)

And maybe TWave/Taunt one of the opponents. Oh and if you're running Red Card that gives you an potential turn, that's pretty handy

when you could be using an offensive setter like Lando etc which can do much more than just that and have much needed extra offensive presence for your team and some nice resistances and immunities which gives your team better pivoting ability.

You can make the same argument for Galvantula "Oh it can only set Webs but it's offensive pressure is good" and while Lando DOES have a decent typing, it's 4x weak to Ice so your opponent can take advantage of that with an ICe type attack and BAM! Bye Bye rocks.

There are also a lot of really good hazard removers in the tier who can easily undo all those turns in one, and players know what to expect and how to deal with the obvious as hell defiant users.

This isn't really related to Deo as much as it is related to DeoSharp. And yeah removing hazards is easy, but you can do it too.
edit:

Your right, everything needs some support thats why pokemonbattles are made with teams. The amount of support is different though and how well the pokemon works with out it is also a factor. Aegi for example can play around or outright beat most mons that are supposed to deal with him. Charizards want SR removed but with every team running hazard removal for the sake of the team as whole its not like that support is only there for them. Deo-D on the other hand is worthless without Bisharp and Aegi, the hazards it lays down would be removed immediatly without those 2 blocking it. There is a reason why spikes are hardly used at all outside of HO teams. The turns used to set them up are wasted if you cant keep them on the field for a while.

All valid points. But you don't have to run Sharp or Slash. they're very good at their jobs granted, but they have counters (even if Aegi beats most of his) and checks. If you run them, you run the risk of being hard countered by a team who's adapted to the most common Pokemon in the tier (which is hard countered to a team that's adapted to that particular team archtype ETC.) Of course that's me being paranoid and Anti-Meta

 

[alexwolf]

Baharoth

If enough support is presented about changing their ranks i am sure that Gary will change his stance, so don't worry about this.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

Really? I tried using Clef as a cleric and wasn't really happy with it... And I'm probably the biggest Clefable fanboy in this thread. Its only edge over Sylveon imo are its abilities, maybe Moonlight if you don't plan to run Wish/Protect to free up a moveslot, and maaaaaaybe its superior movepool if you need one specific move to hit one specific poke. But overall I think Sylveon is the superior cleric. It doesn't completely outclass Clefable, but I think it's better in most cases .

Yeah, the abilities are kind of the point. Unaware and Magic Guard are both fantastic defensive abilities, and I personally used Clefable for Unaware, something that Sylveon could never do. I mean, I could see why you might think that Sylveon is better than Clefable, but calling Clefable garbage (I'm not saying that you have done this, but others have) is a step too far.

Sylveon's 110/65/130 defenses unquestionably make it a better cleric, so it is in no way "outclassed" by Clefable in that role.

Sylveon has a base 95 HP stat, not 110.

Well if its only about Hell Bell I guess Clef can get it done properly as well, its more about the wish passing part where Clef gets the short stick.

Well, when I say "cleric," I'm generally talking about Heal Bell. Whether it has Wish or not is another story.

The problem is simply that Clefables bulk is mediocre at best, even with full investment, and its offensive presence without boosts and LO is sub par as well. That means that it usually takes quite alot of dmg when coming in (you will have a hard time finding a physical attacker that cant deal 40%+ dmg to physical defensive clefable, LO/CB boosted attackers usually 2hko and with Unaware and rocks on the field basicly every physical attacker threatens to 2hko as well as most special attackers) and once it got in its hard for Clef to get a Wish of to heal something else. It doesnt force switches as much as Sylveon does so it generates less free turns and due to its mediocre bulk it cant just come in, take a hit, use wish and switch out as easy as Sylveon can.

The thing is, that's kinda debatable. Keep in mind that Sylveon has less physical bulk than Clefable does, and while it's special bulk is better, it's not like it has a field day with most special attackers like Chansey does. Assuming a physically defensive spread, it's in danger of a 2HKO from LO Latios's Psyshock after Stealth Rock, guaranteed with a little prior damage. You beat Latias, though. Aegislash smashes with Iron Head or Flash Cannon while Sylveon does little back. Charizard Y still 2HKOs with Fire Blast. You can beat Thundurus, but if it has Nasty Plot, it sets up and 2HKOs while you do 65% max in return. Unaware Clefable doesn't have that problem. Heatran is Heatran. Keldeo's LO Hydro Pump has a shot at 2HKOing, guaranteed with Stealth Rock or Specs > LO. You can beat Greninja from full health, but like Latios, you still take a ton of damage and have a small shot at being 2HKOed even after Stealth Rock. 0 SpA Mega Venusaur's Sludge Bomb is a 2HKO after Stealth Rock, and even without, it can just spam Sludge Bomb until you get poisoned and then 2HKO that way. You do beat LO Deoxys-S. Landorus's Earth Power has a small chance to 2HKO with no prior damage, nearly guaranteed with a Modest nature or Stealth Rock. Sludge Wave variants outright win if you switch directly into an Earth Power or Psychic or something. Gengar's Sludge Bomb 2HKOs, and LO variants have a shot at OHKOing after Stealth Rock. Mega Gardevoir's Hyper Voice is a nearly guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock. You beat Mega Manectric pretty handily. Mega Alakazam also has a decent chance to 2HKO with Psyshock after Stealth Rock. Survivable, but too close for comfort. Manaphy 2HKOs with Surf at +3, while Unaware Clefable can actually stop it. Volcarona just sets up all over you.

And I guess that's about it for common special attackers. That also isn't taking into account the fact that Clefable's greater physical bulk and access to Unaware (to stop setup sweepers that would blow past Sylveon) or Magic Guard (to completely ignore damage from hazards, poison, burns, etc.) give it opportunities to come in safely and use Heal Bell / Wish that Sylveon would not have. Don't get me wrong, I realize that Clefable's unimpressive bulk is a problem, and it does let it down from time to time. But seeing as how Sylveon's main defensive perk is its much higher special bulk, yet it still struggles to tank hits from most of the metagame's top special attackers (especially tanking them comfortably enough to be able to use Wish for a teammate and not have to worry about healing itself), that advantage means a lot less than you might think it would. Besides that, Sylveon's other advantage is more damage, but it's not like it's wallbreaking any time soon. Clefable can also solve its issues with special power and bulk with CM + Bell, which is obviously a legitimate set, but that's probably irrelevant since I think you're referring more to WishTect + Bell.

Long story short, while Sylveon might not be completely outclassed, I do think that Clefable does give it legitimate competition as a cleric due to its better physical bulk and great defensive abilities (and this is also completely ignoring the existence of Chansey, by the way). Meanwhile, Clefable obviously takes the lead with its much wider versatility. I agree with New World Order that Baton Pass is a very real factor influencing Sylveon's viability right now, and based on the moveset stats, it's a big reason why it's being used as much as it is.

 

[New World Order]

So Agent Gibbs basically said everything I wanted to say, except much better. I'd also like to add that of the mentions on that list, Clefable can avoid 2HKOs from Latios thanks to it's superior physical bulk and can bs it's way through Heatran with brute force. The fact that this monster has basically made special boosting obsolete except those whose boosts are crucial to their function (Manaphy, Volcarona, Crocune etc) is a testament to it's power. That superior on-paper special bulk for Sylveon is nothing more than a paper tiger, it doesn't actually help it survive against any notable special attackers Clefable would normally lose to, and that goes for the Wish+Protect variants of Clefable too, which to many is the lesser of Clefable's two clerics sets (note that Sylveon only has one). The only reason I'd use Sylveon over Clefable outside of a BP chain is it's ability to go through Substitute. Otherwise, it's completely outclassed. To suggest that Sylveon should be the same as, let alone higher than, Clefable on the viability ranking is absurd.