Ladder Monotype [Read post #393 for Tiering Updates]

[Sae]

I feel compelled to write something since we're now discussing Swift Swim and I'm a Water type user. Although I've only played the tier for little over a month I think I can speak with enough experience from my laddering.

I personally believe Water type trainers should rely on other mons instead of relying on Swift Swim as a crutch. I mean Swift Swim isn't that original when teambuilding. However, it has such an influence on the metagame that outright banning it would not be ideal. As ArticunoI/DoW said, there are teams that do well and can still beat it. His goal was to make a team that could solidly beat Swift Swim, but it was still successful. Swift Swim is one of those things teams have to anticipate. I myself hate using it in Monotype because I believe in "SS< non-Drizzle monowater" (which is a trend I hope people take up). Although I do love stealing other people's Drizzle for my own mons to setup with (namely Manaphy) it frustrates me to have to lose thanks to Ludicolo.

Swift Swim makes people think Monowater only relies on it instead of others. I myself have taught a couple of people how to run a good Monowater team without running a HO Swift Swim team: needs an Electric immunity, tank, at least 2 sweepers, hazard support, and then filler. This format for Monowater allows a more diverse play style instead of just relying on sending out Politoed, switching, and then SS sweep.

Anyway to fix the problems with SS I personally think Aldaron's proposal works: no SS+Drizzle. No Drizzle means they have to wait another turn to setup which can be costly. I agree that stalling out SS is hard, especially for mons neutral to water (Fire, Ground, and Rock normally carry weather so trolling their Rain isn't too hard; although they would still lose due to type disadvantage). A nerf of just no Damp Rock would not be enough since it is so easy for SS to conserve Politoed and setup rain for free later. Damp rock nerf would only mean that Politoed gets sent in earlier delaying the inevitable sweep at the end of the battle. Although the only ban I personally would want is a ban on Ludicolo, but that's just me being biased against it.

 

[DoW]

Swift Swim by itself affects Hyper Offensive teams more simply due to the fact that unless they are running strong priority, it is hard to top +2 speed and +1 to water attacks, unless they can mitigate the speed advantage with something like Sticky Webs and have access to hard hitting pokemon with base speed stats of 85+ like Bug type. Bulky Offensive teams can do well depending on their setup, for fighting for example AV pokes like Conkel/Gallade can take boosted SpA water attacks and start recovering back with Drain Punch, some calcs

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Surf vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Gallade in Rain: 172-204 (50.5 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO/252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Surf vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr in Rain: 276-325 (66.6 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Gallade Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kingdra: 136-162 (46.7 - 55.6%) -- 73.4% chance to 2HKO/252+ Atk Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kingdra: 148-175 (50.8 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Not all Bulky Offensive teams have access to pokemon like these however so that's the problem. In order to do well in Monotype, every team needs to either carry something that can sponge common Swim Swift threats like a Ferrothorn or a Mega Venu, or be pure stall like Normal, or have access sticky web and fast hard hitting pokemon like Bug types. Unfortunately a fair number of types arent able to meet this criteria. With the big pool of pokemon the Swift Swim user can draw upon and even less types become viable.

The only reliable types that ive seen be able to fight back against Swift Swim at the higher ladders are

-Fighting
-Psychic
-Bug
-Poison
-Grass
-Fairy
-Steel
-Flying
-Normal (dependent on if the SS user runs CM/Sub Keldeo)
-Dark (dependent on if the SS user runs CM/Sub Keldeo)

The types I didnt list are the ones who face an uphill battle when vs Swift Swim teams, Ground probably having the worst time. SS Ludicolo is a hard counter to Ground teams.
I'm not saying its impossible, skill/luck can give you the win, but it's very hard.

Btw unrelated, I didnt know you laddered DoW, whats the name of the alt that you ladder with.

I think if the main problem is for Offensive teams, a Drizzle + Swift Swim ban would be enough as the loss of momentum due to setting up rain dance should be enough for a good offensive player to take advantage of, allowing them to counter it if not be certain of winning. After all, we want a more diverse metagame which preferably means allowing Swift Swim to exist, but simply be about equally viable to other tactics.

As for my laddering, I used to ladder with my main alt and I got up to about 1480, around #100, before one night I decided that laddering while drunk was a great idea. After I dropped to the high 1300s I decided I couldn't be bothered to get it back up just yet. Perhaps next time I try I'll get to the top 20.

First let me say that my suck up comment was out of line and unnecessary. I just happened to see your reply minutes before I went into work and responded on my iphone quickly and didn't realize I came off looking like that much of a prick, and that's not an excuse, I'm actually apologizing. I don't know you personally and even if I did it's still wrong, I'm sorry.

Thanks for the apology, it's all fine.

 

[naten2006]

In regards to Drizzle+Swift Swim, I play a Psychic Mono and I personally can not handle this combination, and I know I'm the only psychic user that struggles with it.. We can look at these different monos to see what exactly they can do and will do in regards to water monos.


Looking initially at weaknesses: Rock, Fire, Ground.


Rock: Cradily, Tyranitar, and Meggron can be switch ins against a water team. Tyranitar and Cradily favor taking special hits and Meggron can take a few physical and not really care. With the exception of Tyranitar, all of these Pokemon would be taking their hits under rain.


252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar: 242-289 (59.9 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


This means that one of the checks to a water mono, a different weather, can not reliably switch in when given the opportunity. A Kabutops set typically also features Aqua Jet, which


252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Aggron in Rain: 122-146 (35.4 - 42.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


The physical check in the type, Mega Aggron, is able to reliably take hits, but it still takes a beating. Cradily is the most reliable check to water, being immune to it and carrying a grass move back against it. It is, however, unsafe to switch in with Cradily.


252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cradily: 220-259 (58.5 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Cradily is 2HKOed by Kabutop’s Stone Edge with it’s typical special defensive set. A physically defensive set is then put in danger by another threat in Swift Swim.

252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cradily: 205-244 (54.5 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Cradily is a check in rock type, but ultimately not a counter.

This is the same case as seen in other types, Ground immediately relying on Gastrodon to handle water. Ludicolo’s presence on water teams makes it impossible for a ground mono to function (Ice, Grass, and Water coverage).

Fire relies on the sun to manage to counter rain relatively reliably with its own sun, but unfortunately, fire sees most of its coverage to kill water in Solarbeam, which with Politoed able to switch in and Drizzle, highly restricts this ability. A properly played water mono has an arsenal of Pokemon that can control the match against any of these three types, despite the traditional counters and checks.

As mentioned before, dragon teams tend to struggle with it. Grass sees a fantastic check in Ferro over that same issue of ice, but it does counter water incredibly well. Looking at Psychic type, a type that is completely neutral (and one I run, so I have intimate experience with the matchup), I can confidently say that psychic has no real counter to this combination. I have considered running Sunny Day.

My personal issue is Kabutops, but it tends to be handled pretty well by Slowbro (I chose to run a Physical Wall in Mew over running Slowbro).

252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 144-172 (36.5 - 43.6%) -- 98.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

The issue isn’t physical attackers for psychic, but the special. The primo check for special is Latias, which is, unfortunately, another Pokemon I can’t run in the scope of my team. Because of the strength of Swift Swim, I am forced towards the route of starting to consider making an entirely new team, something I already tried to do, to counter a type I’m not necessarily weak to. I have walls, I have sweepers.

None of what I have is quite on the caliber of Kingdra or Ludicolo, and picking up Latias means losing Starmie and picking up Slowbro means losing Mew. These are Pokemon that I rely on for other things, and skewing my team in another direction will create issues for other monos. I know the point isn’t that we should be able to win every matchup, and I know that some people will read this as some sort of bitter message, but my point is that my team has to be specifically built in a different direction than my type disadvantages to hold up to Swift Swim. It makes water type strong enough that it’s not enough with what I’ve already done. I support a ban, but I would understand why if it doesn't get banned.

 

[Nochman.EXE]

Grass sees a fantastic check in Ferro over that same issue of ice, but it does counter water incredibly well. Looking at Psychic type, a type that is completely neutral (and one I run, so I have intimate experience with the matchup), I can confidently say that psychic has no real counter to this combination. I have considered running Sunny Day.

252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn: 257-304 (73 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Just wanna point out that not even the acclaimed "SS Counter" for Grass and Steel is safe, and that the Metagame has adapted to the Ferrothorn Vs. SS situation. Some are actually using Focus Blast on their Ludicolo's, while...

My personal issue is Kabutops, but it tends to be handled pretty well by Slowbro (I chose to run a Physical Wall in Mew over running Slowbro).

252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 144-172 (36.5 - 43.6%) -- 98.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

The issue isn’t physical attackers for psychic, but the special. The primo check for special is Latias, which is, unfortunately, another Pokemon I can’t run in the scope of my team. Because of the strength of Swift Swim, I am forced towards the route of starting to consider making an entirely new team, something I already tried to do, to counter a type I’m not necessarily weak to. I have walls, I have sweepers.

None of what I have is quite on the caliber of Kingdra or Ludicolo, and picking up Latias means losing Starmie and picking up Slowbro means losing Mew. These are Pokemon that I rely on for other things, and skewing my team in another direction will create issues for other monos. I know the point isn’t that we should be able to win every matchup, and I know that some people will read this as some sort of bitter message, but my point is that my team has to be specifically built in a different direction than my type disadvantages to hold up to Swift Swim. It makes water type strong enough that it’s not enough with what I’ve already done. I support a ban, but I would understand why if it doesn't get banned.

252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 190-224 (48.2 - 56.8%) -- 34.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Factor in its access to Swords Dance and the fact that it can force many things out, nothing is really safe from Kabutops either. Even the aforementioned Latias,

252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Latias: 234-277 (64.2 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

And,

252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Latias: 304-359 (83.5 - 98.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

So yeah they have options to get over a lot of shit that's supposedly Counters/Check them.

 

[haunter]

Rain teams are stupidly powerful right now. Unless you face mono Grass, you have a ridiculous team advantage against pretty much every other type. I wouldn't mind getting rid of Politoed.

 

[Sewa]

In regards to Drizzle+Swift Swim, I play a Psychic Mono and I personally can not handle this combination, and I know I'm the only psychic user that struggles with it.. We can look at these different monos to see what exactly they can do and will do in regards to water monos.


Looking initially at weaknesses: Rock, Fire, Ground.


Rock: Cradily, Tyranitar, and Meggron can be switch ins against a water team. Tyranitar and Cradily favor taking special hits and Meggron can take a few physical and not really care. With the exception of Tyranitar, all of these Pokemon would be taking their hits under rain.


252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar: 242-289 (59.9 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


This means that one of the checks to a water mono, a different weather, can not reliably switch in when given the opportunity. A Kabutops set typically also features Aqua Jet, which


252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Aggron in Rain: 122-146 (35.4 - 42.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


The physical check in the type, Mega Aggron, is able to reliably take hits, but it still takes a beating. Cradily is the most reliable check to water, being immune to it and carrying a grass move back against it. It is, however, unsafe to switch in with Cradily.


252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cradily: 220-259 (58.5 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Cradily is 2HKOed by Kabutop’s Stone Edge with it’s typical special defensive set. A physically defensive set is then put in danger by another threat in Swift Swim.

252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cradily: 205-244 (54.5 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Cradily is a check in rock type, but ultimately not a counter.

This is the same case as seen in other types, Ground immediately relying on Gastrodon to handle water. Ludicolo’s presence on water teams makes it impossible for a ground mono to function (Ice, Grass, and Water coverage).

Fire relies on the sun to manage to counter rain relatively reliably with its own sun, but unfortunately, fire sees most of its coverage to kill water in Solarbeam, which with Politoed able to switch in and Drizzle, highly restricts this ability. A properly played water mono has an arsenal of Pokemon that can control the match against any of these three types, despite the traditional counters and checks.

As mentioned before, dragon teams tend to struggle with it. Grass sees a fantastic check in Ferro over that same issue of ice, but it does counter water incredibly well. Looking at Psychic type, a type that is completely neutral (and one I run, so I have intimate experience with the matchup), I can confidently say that psychic has no real counter to this combination. I have considered running Sunny Day.

My personal issue is Kabutops, but it tends to be handled pretty well by Slowbro (I chose to run a Physical Wall in Mew over running Slowbro).

252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 144-172 (36.5 - 43.6%) -- 98.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

The issue isn’t physical attackers for psychic, but the special. The primo check for special is Latias, which is, unfortunately, another Pokemon I can’t run in the scope of my team. Because of the strength of Swift Swim, I am forced towards the route of starting to consider making an entirely new team, something I already tried to do, to counter a type I’m not necessarily weak to. I have walls, I have sweepers.

None of what I have is quite on the caliber of Kingdra or Ludicolo, and picking up Latias means losing Starmie and picking up Slowbro means losing Mew. These are Pokemon that I rely on for other things, and skewing my team in another direction will create issues for other monos. I know the point isn’t that we should be able to win every matchup, and I know that some people will read this as some sort of bitter message, but my point is that my team has to be specifically built in a different direction than my type disadvantages to hold up to Swift Swim. It makes water type strong enough that it’s not enough with what I’ve already done. I support a ban, but I would understand why if it doesn't get banned.

I don't actually know your whole team, but have you tried Scarf Gardevoir? With Trace it will copy Swift Swim and hit hard most SS users with a combination of Moonblast/Thunderbolt/Psyshock(Psychic)/Filler
The only problem being Ludicolo, which can only be 2HKOed, and the fact it can only get in to revenge kill.
Scarf Gardevoir is not bad even outside rain, being able to copy important abilities, trick scarf away and provide a neutrality to Dark moves.

 

[Mulan15262]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-123361878

I think this shows how much people underestimate Shuckle. It started off at around half HP and managed to KO 3 pokemon while it was my only one left. If I had not expected Mega-Aerodactyl to outspeed his scarfed Krookodile, then Shuckle would have been stalling a weaker team, which could have meant my victory from a pokemon who was mainly mentioned as a mono-bug Talonflame counter/check.

I've also had a few other battles that went similarly, and Shuckle usually ends up being my MVP.

 

[Mac Vanderp]

I don't actually know your whole team, but have you tried Scarf Gardevoir? With Trace it will copy Swift Swim and hit hard most SS users with a combination of Moonblast/Thunderbolt/Psyshock(Psychic)/Filler
The only problem being Ludicolo, which can only be 2HKOed, and the fact it can only get in to revenge kill.
Scarf Gardevoir is not bad even outside rain, being able to copy important abilities, trick scarf away and provide a neutrality to Dark moves.

Doing that means changing his team for sift swimmers, coverage for other types and Gard's mega stone, so he would also lose the power that mega gardevoir has. Making the reason why he runs mega Gardevoir over a scarfed pointless if he's just going to run it for swift swimmers and even then, it's still not any help because it's much weaker not having the hyper voice pixilate boost.

 

[Nochman.EXE]

I personally don't support a SS Ban as it's a play-style and the point of a Banlist is, or at least imo, to make the Types, strategies, and play-styles usable. Removing one of those when we can solve the problem in another way is against me.

When the time comes to deal with it, I propose a Damp Rock Ban and a limit of Swift Swimmers to 2. But until then, I think we should let the Metagame breathe.

 

[DoW]

Personally speaking, my Flying teams are going towards either using MegaZard Y (which along with a decent defensive core and Scarf Volt Switch Thundy-t can beat SS to some extent) or going back to Sunny Day Skarm which I ran in Gen 5 when weather was much more of a problem for me. The fact I'm being pushed to these options shows something needs to change.

As for the change, that's the big problem. A Politoed ban sounds enticing, but Water teams can use the rain simply for the 1.5x boost to their STAB which on its own isn't broken, so I would argue that a straight-up Politoed ban isn't the way to go. Damp Rock, equally, isn't broken without Swift Swim so I don't think this needs to be banned either: Water teams can still use rain for legitimate strategies such as Rest/Hydration Manaphy/Vaporeon, and the previously mentioned boost to water moves is very nice without being broken.

For these reasons, I think that the only bans needed are either complex bans including Swift Swim, such as Aldaron's Proposal or Damp Rock + SS, or banning Swift Swim itself which personally I wouldn't like, as I would argue that in itself Swift Swim isn't broken: Kingdra with Rain Dance and Swift Swim on a Dragon team is a nice combo that isn't broken, for example.

For this reason, I think the solution is once again Aldaron's Proposal (Ban Swift Swim + Drizzle on the same team) as this would mean a move is required to set up rain, allowing offensive teams which suffer the most to gain momentum, which would reduce the effectiveness of Swift Swim without making it completely unviable.

 

[Sae]

I personally don't support a SS Ban as it's a play-style and the point of a Banlist is, or at least imo, to make the Types, strategies, and play-styles usable. Removing one of those when we can solve the problem in another way is against me.

When the time comes to deal with it, I propose a Damp Rock Ban and a limit of Swift Swimmers to 2. But until then, I think we should let the Metagame breathe.

I understand the reasoning as to why you're against a SS ban. However, I don't think your proposal is the most sound. Even though I don't use SS on a personal bias in monotype, I'm pretty knowledgeable about the havoc it causes because all of my biggest rivals of my type run SS.

Now I'm not going to just ban SS because it would help me (although I wish I could), having just 2 SS users is still overkill. A good Swift Swim team ONLY needs 2 SS users to efficiently sweep teams. It's usually Ludicolo+Kabutops or Ludicolo/Kingdra or all three of them that are the prominent threats. Also while a Damp Rock nerf might help, the problem is that SS teams can easily preserve their Politoed and then send in rain later. If they run a bulky Toed, which most people do, it's almost impossible for some types to outright OHKO it first turn. Even if someone has a mon that could do it, Team Preview is a thing so you may never get that match up you want right from the start. Since killing Politoed becomes a chore, all the SS user has to do is stop sweeping and just setup rain before once again sweeping again (meaning there's only a one-turn reprieve).

If say a Ludicolo is sweeping you with its LO and great coverage in Water, Grass, Ice, most people would wait out the storm. With a Damp Rock nerf, this would make things easier right? Not really. When rain ends, they just send in a Politoed with probably a lot of HP left since the opponent couldn't attack it first turn due to switch. Then just bring in your next SS like Kingdra or double back into Ludicolo and SS user can sweep again.

Okay sure Damp Rock makes waiting out the rain faster, but that makes it 5 turns instead of 8. That still gives the SS Pokemon maybe 3 turns to knock stuff out or take chunks of HP from the opponent's mons. 3 turns can mean 3 mons could die or at least too damaged to be useful. And that's not even taking into consideration the next time the storm happens when you somehow live through the SS abuse the first time.

As for the change, that's the big problem. A Politoed ban sounds enticing, but Water teams can use the rain simply for the 1.5x boost to their STAB which on its own isn't broken, so I would argue that a straight-up Politoed ban isn't the way to go. Damp Rock, equally, isn't broken without Swift Swim so I don't think this needs to be banned either: Water teams can still use rain for legitimate strategies such as Rest/Hydration Manaphy/Vaporeon, and the previously mentioned boost to water moves is very nice without being broken.

For these reasons, I think that the only bans needed are either complex bans including Swift Swim, such as Aldaron's Proposal or Damp Rock + SS, or banning Swift Swim itself which personally I wouldn't like, as I would argue that in itself Swift Swim isn't broken: Kingdra with Rain Dance and Swift Swim on a Dragon team is a nice combo that isn't broken, for example.

For this reason, I think the solution is once again Aldaron's Proposal (Ban Swift Swim + Drizzle on the same team) as this would mean a move is required to set up rain, allowing offensive teams which suffer the most to gain momentum, which would reduce the effectiveness of Swift Swim without making it completely unviable.

I honestly think that Aldaron's Proposal is the only logical solution there is right now. I don't think banning Politoed would be good since Monowater could still really use it for extra power in rain, a bulky mon, and a weather disrupter. It also allows other defensive mons to shine like Rain Dish Tentacruel or Hydration Rest Manaphy (even if not as optimal as last gen). Also SS would still be a relevant threat without being the broken team that it is. I'll support whatever decision ultimately happens, but I do hope I won't have to face Ludicolo abuse anymore from my rivals.

 

[Rhz]

I look at it almost the same as Talonflame. Talonflame was banned due to the priority base 120 attack. The same thing is with SS. I've beaten a SS team maybe one time with my fire team and that was because the guy sucked and left his Politoad in for too long. I got that and then was able to set up with ZardX. Anyways, there is also something that I have had troubles with in the past worse than Swift Swim teams and that's the one's that also have Hydration. They are bulky and they can't be statused so they just set up and recover. Which isn't a big deal.

I definitely think the option is banning Politoad. SS teams would still be viable and I don't think people are understanding that. Rather than having an Auto Drizzle, you just replace it with a bulkier Pokemon that uses rain dance. There's nothing wrong with that at all. It's strategy. All you're doing is taking out the Drizzle.

This should be fine because people don't utilize the Solar Power and Chlorophyl or anything like that. I've never seen a Sunny Day Grass team when it could be perfectly viable. I think there's a lot more interesting techniques we can use involving water types, like Sae uses without the use of SS. Or even just using SS after a rain dance. As I was saying it's no different than the Talonflame ban. It takes away from being able to use certain mono types and the water type itself really has just become swift swimmers. All I'm saying is bring some more strategy into SS rather than drizzle-switch-sweep.

 

[Sae]

I look at it almost the same as Talonflame. Talonflame was banned due to the priority base 120 attack. The same thing is with SS. I've beaten a SS team maybe one time with my fire team and that was because the guy sucked and left his Politoad in for too long. I got that and then was able to set up with ZardX. Anyways, there is also something that I have had troubles with in the past worse than Swift Swim teams and that's the one's that also have Hydration. They are bulky and they can't be statused so they just set up and recover. Which isn't a big deal.

I definitely think the option is banning Politoad. SS teams would still be viable and I don't think people are understanding that. Rather than having an Auto Drizzle, you just replace it with a bulkier Pokemon that uses rain dance. There's nothing wrong with that at all. It's strategy. All you're doing is taking out the Drizzle.

Banning Politoed isn't the true problem though about SS. It's the Drizzle ability. Politoed with Water Absorb +Rain Dance wouldn't nearly be as successful as DrizzleToed. Talonflame was banned because it wasn't Gale Wings that was the true problem. Talonflame already outpaces most of the metagame w/o Gale Wings, so it only truly factors when going up against Scarf(s). Banning Toed just because we banned Talon isn't a good option since Toed isn't the problem but the ability is.

 

[floe]

Banning Politoed isn't the true problem though about SS. It's the Drizzle ability. Politoed with Water Absorb +Rain Dance wouldn't nearly be as successful as DrizzleToed. Talonflame was banned because it wasn't Gale Wings that was the true problem. Talonflame already outpaces most of the metagame w/o Gale Wings, so it only truly factors when going up against Scarfs. Banning Toed just because we banned Talon isn't a good option since Toed isn't the problem but the ability is.

Hey guys, it's aquas0und.

Sae brings up an interesting point that I wanted to elaborate on. In terms of revenge killing, three of the most common Swift Swimmers (Kabutops, Kingdra, Ludicolo) usually run max speed and have a base speed stat of 80, 85, and 70, respectively. This means that unless a team has a scarfed pokemon of a base speed stat of at least 110, they won't be able to outspeed or revenge kill the aforementioned pokemon. This leaves offensive teams with limited options in the forms of strong priority or multiple Focus Sashes. However, Kabutops resists most priority bar Mach Punch and Sucker Punch--and even then (in the case for Sucker Punch), the SS team can use this to their advantage by switching out to, say, Keldeo, to avoid damage and maintain momentum. All in all, offensively-oriented teams are hard-pressed to find ways around SS teams due to their lack of hard counters and revenge killers to common Swift Swimmers.

 

[Overseer Steel]

Swift swim 100 percent needs looking into in my honest opinion. As previously stated by others, unless you run multiple sashes or a trace scarf gardevoir with energy ball/thunderbolt you are at an instant disadvantage. All the opponent has to do is keep politoad alive and and keep spamming specs kingdra or life orb ludicolo. There are plenty of other viable water tactics meaning a swift swim ban wouldn't ruin water monotypes but allow other viable tactics to surface. The only way i have found useful in combating swift swim is with hazards, however many kabutops' run rapid spin so that can be very hit or miss. Setting up is very unreliable against swift swim because once you have set up, they will still be faster a lot of the time. Heres an example of the hazards working http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-123290853 , if those hazards weren't there excadrill would have been wiped out because politoad would have been able to set up the rain. Many people still may question the 'op ness' of swift swim. My advice to you is to make an alt and ladder a swift swim mono with it, i played 42 machetes before i lost with it. You will then see why a lot of people want it to be removed from the meta or at least nerfed.

 

[Dan3rz]

I signed up just to reply to this, but i'd agree with Sae, it should go back to the gen5 rule on Swift Swim (ie. no drizzle/swiftswim), people can and likely will use the option of swift swimif they want, however they wont be as common, and the extra turn of setup would also allow people time to react to the situation.

Granted you could use a bulky water to setup the rain, however in some cases i dont see that being likely, as itll just give those pokemon in question the 5mss.

An idea i mentioned on Showdown was to perhaps limit the number of swift swimmers on a team. But looking at some of the replies here, i think that may not be an option as the majority of swiftswimmers can sweep by themselves.

 

[NeoFlame]

While banning drizzle + swift swim looks like a good way to neuter this strategy, a slowbro/slowking with rain dance could set it up throughout the match thanks to regenerator, as well as reliable recovery in slack off. even without damp rock boosted rain dance, they can still punch holes into most teams to allow for a sweep later on. Simply banning swift swim looks like it may be the best way to go.

 

[DoW]

While banning drizzle + swift swim looks like a good way to neuter this strategy, a slowbro/slowking with rain dance could set it up throughout the match thanks to regenerator, as well as reliable recovery in slack off. even without damp rock boosted rain dance, they can still punch holes into most teams to allow for a sweep later on. Simply banning swift swim looks like it may be the best way to go.

While it would still be perfectly possible to set up rain dance, this give the opponent a considerable amount of momentum as it requires switching in, setting up rain dance, and switching out, rather than just switching politoed in and out. This extra turn could easily be used by a setup sweeper to threaten the swift swim user, for example Thundurus-t could switch in and use agility, or yanmega could switch in and get the extra speed boost, from the perspective of a flying user. It would nerf the Swift Swim stratagy, stopping it from being as broken.

 

[Antihaxxer]

Is HO Flying Type the best mono type ?

With so many hard hitters, cool Mega (Charizard), hurting very bad on Physical (Staraptor) or Special (Landorus), with good tanks (Skarmory, Gliscor)
They even don't always rely on their STAB Flying (Gyarados, Thundurus, ...)

 

[TheWyvernKing]

While it would still be perfectly possible to set up rain dance, this give the opponent a considerable amount of momentum as it requires switching in, setting up rain dance, and switching out, rather than just switching politoed in and out. This extra turn could easily be used by a setup sweeper to threaten the swift swim user, for example Thundurus-t could switch in and use agility, or yanmega could switch in and get the extra speed boost, from the perspective of a flying user. It would nerf the Swift Swim stratagy, stopping it from being as broken.

First off if they're gonna set up rain they'd probably do it against something that can't hurt them like a skarm in your case or forretress in mine. In mono people often use many slightly unusual set's which is what makes them "good". To be totally honest i think people CAN find a counter for many mono's to swift swim, for example i've been fine with talonflame (shouldn't have been banned) using bug and i've been in the 1600's this gen for mono ladder. I'll say swift swim as of right now is pretty devastating though when you see a +2 attack kabutops with swift swim in the rain. Also I'm a bug user and I don't know how long you've been using flying but yanmega doesn't get the boost on a switch in, it has to wait a turn (+1 yanmega doesn't outspeed anyways).

 

[DoW]

First off if they're gonna set up rain they'd probably do it against something that can't hurt them like a skarm in your case or forretress in mine. In mono people often use many slightly unusual set's which is what makes them "good". To be totally honest i think people CAN find a counter for many mono's to swift swim, for example i've been fine with talonflame (shouldn't have been banned) using bug and i've been in the 1600's this gen for mono ladder. I'll say swift swim as of right now is pretty devastating though when you see a +2 attack kabutops with swift swim in the rain. Also I'm a bug user and I don't know how long you've been using flying but yanmega doesn't get the boost on a switch in, it has to wait a turn (+1 yanmega doesn't outspeed anyways).

I reckon I've been using flying long enough, if you count pokemon yellow onwards as long enough. And yes, they set up rain dance on a poke that can't do much, or try to. But here's the scenario:

Opponent withdrew Ludicolo!
Opponent sent out Slowbro!
Skarmory used Brave bird!
Slowbro lost 15% of its health? I mean, probably not that much but w/e.
Skarmory is hurt by recoil!
Turn 2:
Skarmory, Come back!
Go, Yanmega!
Slowbro used Rain Dance!
It started to rain!
Turn 3:
Opponent withdrew Slowbro!
Opponent sent out Kingdra!
Yanmega used Bug Buzz!
Kingdra lost 70% of its health! Or roughly that at least, IDK.
Yanmega lost a little health (or whatever it says for Life Orb recoil)
Yanmega's Speed Boost raised its speed!
Turn 4:
Yanmega used Protect!
Kingdra used Waterfall / Hydro Pump / w/e
Yanmega protected itself!
Yanmega's Speed Boost raised its speed!
Turn 5:
Yanmega used Giga Drain!
Kingdra lost 30% of its health!
Kingdra fainted!
Yanmega restored some health!
Yanmega lost a little health!
Yanmega's Speed Boost raised its speed!

You couldn't do that if rain started when Politoed switched in, so Kingdra would still outspeed. And sorry if some of the calcs are a little off, I just wrote it up without actually referring to anything. But that's how I'd expect it to play out vs. Swift Swim.
My point is, having to use a move gives the opposing player the momentum needed to stand a chance. If the Yanmega then used Protect against the next move as well, that'd be four of the eight turns of rain gone as well, and by that point the flying user could easily have a distinct advantage.

 

[TheWyvernKing]

I reckon I've been using flying long enough, if you count pokemon yellow onwards as long enough. And yes, they set up rain dance on a poke that can't do much, or try to. But here's the scenario:
You couldn't do that if rain started when Politoed switched in, so Kingdra would still outspeed. And sorry if some of the calcs are a little off, I just wrote it up without actually referring to anything. But that's how I'd expect it to play out vs. Swift Swim.
My point is, having to use a move gives the opposing player the momentum needed to stand a chance. If the Yanmega then used Protect against the next move as well, that'd be four of the eight turns of rain gone as well, and by that point the flying user could easily have a distinct advantage.

Um....what is your ranking on the ladder or where are you playing cause why tf would someone double switch to a kingdra on a yanmega...i don't get why they would expect a protect tbh when you have a slowbro in unless to sacrifice it. In a legit scenario i'd think they'd go into gyarados or bulky water like vaporeon.

 

[DoW]

Um....what is your ranking on the ladder or where are you playing cause why tf would someone double switch to a kingdra on a yanmega...i don't get why they would expect a protect tbh when you have a slowbro in unless to sacrifice it. In a legit scenario i'd think they'd go into gyarados or bulky water like vaporeon.

It was an example of how the opposing player could use the situation to gain momentum. Of course the water player could switch, and the other player could predict this and react in turn. It also wasn't a double switch: they used rain dance with slowbro, then switched to save a bulky rain setter (if they let it faint, they would be at a considerable disadvantage as it would be that much harder to set up rain).

All I was trying to show was that having to use rain dance rather than having a drizzle setter gives the opposing player a considerable amount of momentum, and I think I successfully displayed this.

 

[ryan]

Is HO Flying Type the best mono type ?

With so many hard hitters, cool Mega (Charizard), hurting very bad on Physical (Staraptor) or Special (Landorus), with good tanks (Skarmory, Gliscor)
They even don't always rely on their STAB Flying (Gyarados, Thundurus, ...)

There's really not an objectively best Monotype, but offensive Flying teams are definitely really good. I toyed around with hyper offensive Mono-Flying back before Talonflame's ban, and I really wasn't a fan of it. Too many things either auto-win against it or make the matchup exceedingly difficult. Stealth Rock is also a huge problem because there are so few effective offensive Flying-type hazard removers. However, balanced offensive and simple balanced Mono-Flying are both really effective playstyles because you can utilize the offensive powerhouses that Mono-Flying has to offer while also utilizing the great defensive pivots and defensive hazard removers of the type.

If you're looking for good Hyper Offense Monotypes, I'd strongly encourage Mono-Dark and Mono-Fairy.

Earlier in the gen, I didn't believe that Mono-Fairy would be any good, considering how few Pokemon of the type there are and how low quality so many of them are. However, Mega Mawile, Azumarill, and Slurpuff are all really, really stronger setup sweepers, and they more than make up for the general low quality of the type. You also get access to priority dual screens and Spikes with Klefki, and dual screens regular Gardevoir with Memento is a huge momentum grabber and offers virtually free setup for all of the aforementioned sweepers.

Mono-Dark offense is also really good because there are so many strong Dark-types, and it's the type that generally does the best in its bad matchups (in my experiences at least). I've beaten Mono-Fairy with it really easily thanks to Bisharp and just generally really powerful Pokemon in the type, and I've even beaten Mono-Fighting a few times thanks to Scarf Honchkrow and lots of priority moves (Sucker Punch to pick things off, CB Crawdaunt's Aqua Jet, and so on).

Also, I know lots of people are still concerned about Mono-Water and its access to Drizzle/Swift Swim. I plan on addressing this in the near future and bring up my thoughts about it.

 

[Crazy Horse]

I wouldn't recommend HO Dark to anyone really. It took quite the time to teambuild to make it viable for me and effective. I was forced into a lot of 50/50 prediction situations and if I guess wrong I lost period. I did create HO Dark for exactly that reason but I'm not sure if most people would appreciate that. I had good matchups but I also had some auto-loss clauses. Since my team completely relied on offensive momentum throughout the whole match there was no sableye/mandibuzz. While I wish I could fit them in, it took 6 pokes to be able to get near accomplishing the feat above. Mega Gyara, +1 Chari-X , Greninja(Only able to speed tie with it at best with your greninja), Dragonite, and any team with relatively fast scarfers kinda became a huge issue. I really couldn't do anything about it either because if i wanted to somewhat patch one of the holes above even more team holes would arise. I enjoyed it though but because of this issue I had to retire HO Dark.