Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

[Sergeant Spooky]

Politoed should stay where kabutops is imo, because their viability is linked. they are ALWAYS run on the same team, and politoed needs to be helping kabutops sweep teams. Yes there is kingdra, but kingdra doesn't sweep as well as kabutops does. kabutops goes where politoed goes, politoed goes where kabutops goes, because simply put, they depend on each other(and kingdra).

You can make a rain team without Kabutops and still be successful. You absolutely can't make a rain team without Politoed; he is required, while Kabutops is just a really, really good idea. And they don't depend on each other; Kabutops depends on Politoed (and other rain setters,) but not the other way around. So I don't think it's inconceivable for Politoed to go to A-, though I don't necessarily support it.

 

[Delibird is Amazing]

Politoed should stay where kabutops is imo, because their viability is linked. they are ALWAYS run on the same team, and politoed needs to be helping kabutops sweep teams. Yes there is kingdra, but kingdra doesn't sweep as well as kabutops does. kabutops goes where politoed goes, politoed goes where kabutops goes, because simply put, they depend on each other(and kingdra).

rain hyper offense is not the only way to run rain

 

[Super Mario Bro]

Scizor should probably follow Conkeldurr in dropping to B. The Mega SD set is just so much better than Band, or anything else regular Scizor has to offer. Not to mention, it can't even pivot into Gengar's Shadow Ball anymore.

 

[Ninja Charizard]

IMO Gengar's main problem is that it suffers from a 4MSS that no other pokemon in the metagame comes even close to suffering. It could have 6 moveslots instead of 4 and it would still be needing more. Gengar can do all the things you mentioned, but the problem is that it can't do all at the same time. And it wants to. Offensive Gengar is very easy to wall. It requires the opponent to be something slower, without a big SpDef and without priority, otherwise it's done. Stall teams murder it, and more offensive teams don't struggle that much against it either. Stallbreaker Gengar, on the other hand, is often dead weight against offensive teams, with its role being pretty much burning something and then faiting, even though it's great against stall.

So running Gengar means that, half the matches, you are going to play with 5 pokemon. Sure, in the other half Gengar is likely going to be your MVP, so it's worth a slot in your team, but I think it has too many limitations to be A+. It is fine in A. It is unpredictable, which is great, and it's pretty much impossible to counter because it has a set for everything, but it often fails to beat many of the things it wishes it could.

 

[D-Ssain]

Breloom almost always loses its Sash immediately and all it takes for Aegislash to shut it down is to let it put something else to sleep. The reason I brought up Sash in the first place is because that's what Breloom relies on the most when checking offensive Pokemon that outspeed it, which it cannot do if entry hazards are up.

Sub + Poison Heal has to choose between coverage and Spore, since both STABs are mandatory. You're also either choosing between Mach Punch without Technician (with a notable power loss) or Focus Punch (meaning you cannot use your best STAB if your sub is broken).

All Stall needs to do to fuck Breloom over is switch to Mega Venusaur, Mandibuzz (who also is immune to Spore thanks to Overcoat), or Skarmory if you already put something to sleep.

You're presenting your argument in a vacuum. Pokemon is not a simple 1v1 situation game. If you have put one of the opposing team's Pokemon to sleep and then he switches back into Aegi, it doesn't take a really skilled player to predict the switch and switch into an appropriate Aegi counter. And now you have the momentum and let's say you put the opposing team's Scarf Chomp to sleep, now he no longer checks your Charizard X. Breloom might be walled by Aegislash, but at least he doesn't have to simply switch out and lose momentum but can rather threaten the opposing team with Spore and conserve momentum.

Terrakion is also in the A rank and is walled by all the Pokes you mentioned, except Mandi, but most stall teams have Skarm anyway. Breloom should be A because of how useful he is in the meta. He checks Deosharp and Sand offense, which are the most common offensive playstyles 1700+. He resists the Edgequake combo and his most notable checks in Talon and Pinsir fear switching in because of Rock Tomb.

 

[Ninja Charizard]

May I ask you, how does Breloom check Deoxys-D?

(and by checking I mean, stopping it from placing 78236398456734986 hazards).

 

[jbtc10]

As for bumping Skarm and Chansey up, Skarm I could see going to A, but I just don't think Chansey has what it takes to move up. Chansey just sits there. That's honestly all it does, and in this metagame, sitting there is not the best strategy. So many things have ways of beating Chansey. It is the epitome of "prepared for" right now, which just isn't a good thing on a defensive Pokemon. Skarm is sort of in the same boat, but at the very least it's better (in my opinion) on balanced teams than Chansey is, so I COULD see it moving up but idk. I'd say that's what makes Hippo and Ferrothorn better too, because they're better assets on balance as well as stall, and Chansey seems way too "one trick pony" for me. Usable on stall but not much else.

Chansey doesn't just sit there at all if you don't want it to. It's actually an incredibly reliable Stealth Rock setter and I see more and more players using it for that role. Chansey gets free turns on a ton of special attackers, so it can use them in a variety of different ways whether it be setting rocks, T-Waving a switch-in, or throwing up a Wish to heal or pivot into a team mate. Those wishes can actually be quite devastating on balance and offensive teams if they heal a big threat back to full health. It's decent on Balance too because of being able to do all those things on one set, and makes team building a lot easier because all of a sudden your team doesn't have to give a shit about 95% of special attackers anymore and can therefore concentrate more on doing what it wants to without having to have as many defensive requirements so as to not get rolled by the many different special attackers out there. Skarm isn't better than Chansey either so I'd find it kinda weird if it went higher than it.

And speaking of Hippo, I reckon it should drop back to A- because it's not better than Skarm or Chansey either, and saying "it's better on balance" is a) debatable for starters (I never found Hippo to be overly amazing), and b) not really relevant because Hippo is miles worse than either of them on Stall, so that would even out anyway. Hippo has also fallen almost completely out of favor as the sand inducer of choice lately for sand teams, so that role is generally being eclipsed by Tyranitar who has a much greater variety of sets it can run, a much greater offensive presence and doesn't lose as much momentum as Hippo does.

 

[Baharoth]

Keep in mind that Gary constantly PMs people and discusses with them on skype, PS, IRC, etc., to ask their opinions on certain ranks that are being discussed. So just because there might be only 3 posts about a Pokemon doesn't mean that there isn't significant support, just that it might now show itself here.

I was aware of that and its fine, but then he shouldnt act like the decisions were made by the people here in this thread or "the community", they arent for the most part. He and his friends/people he respects make all the decisions. Thats not even close to be representitive of "the community" and has nothing to do with this thread, which is basicly the only way for "the community" to participate in the discussion at all.

As for bumping Skarm and Chansey up, Skarm I could see going to A, but I just don't think Chansey has what it takes to move up. Chansey just sits there. That's honestly all it does, and in this metagame, sitting there is not the best strategy. So many things have ways of beating Chansey. It is the epitome of "prepared for" right now, which just isn't a good thing on a defensive Pokemon. Skarm is sort of in the same boat, but at the very least it's better (in my opinion) on balanced teams than Chansey is, so I COULD see it moving up but idk. I'd say that's what makes Hippo and Ferrothorn better too, because they're better assets on balance as well as stall, and Chansey seems way too "one trick pony" for me. Usable on stall but not much else. Regardless, I agree with Zapdos moving down simply because it's, as AJ said, not particularly great at doing any of the jobs it's supposed to be doing.

We have a one trick pony thats just sitting there in S rank, i dont see the problem tbh. Thats if you wanna call wish/healbell support "sitting there". Ofc it would be nice if Chansey had some use on other archetypes than stall but given how rare balance is, it wouldnt make much of a difference even if it was good on balance and again, we have the epitome of "fits just one playstyle" in S so its imo not a valid argument against Chansey. Yes its prepared for but it can still do its job well most of the time.

Regarding the other things.

Breloom: Imo he fits better into B+ than into A- as the most useful thing about him is his Spore. Bullet Seed is unreliable, Mach Punch is nice against the rising TTar/Drill combo but outside of that he doesnt have much use as there arent many setup sweepers around that are weak to it. He is basicly a one hit victim for everything with his noexisting defenses and quickly becomes useless without a sash as he is also fairly slow.

Gengar: Cant realy judge this one. Most of its value at the moment is probably against stall and since i am not a stall player i cant tell how well it does against it. From my experience its not hard to handle for balanced teams no matter what set it runs. Even with LO its power isnt that thrilling so its not to difficult to handle for a defensive core and there are enough things around to revenge kill it if you have to.

Politoad: I think it should stay where it is. All it does is providing rain via drizzle, thats certainly good for rain teams but overall Politoad is a pretty bad pokemon and he shouldnt get into the A ranks just because of a come into play ability thats useful for a more or less niche archetype.

Krokodile: Dont even know where he is atm but imo he is C rank material. I guess he can do some jobs given the right support but overall he is outclassed by many things in the upper ranks, i never considered him for an OU team so far and i doubt that i ever will.

Oh and since Scizor was mentioned, i think it deserves to stay in B+. Yes his mega is better overall but its a mega and regular Scizor still has a lot going for it beeing a good Pivot, Pursuit trapper and revenge killer.

Doesnt even have to be banded, i am currently using a LO set with Knock off/BP/Pursuit/Roost and it works very well. For example, the combination of Knock off and BP takes out Deo-D even with Redcard before it can setup anything more than rocks. He can trap the Latis and unlike the banded set he isnt setup fodder after locking itself into a move. And with Roost he compensates the LO damage and can stick around longer, perfect for balanced teams imo.

 

[alexwolf]

IMO Gengar's main problem is that it suffers from a 4MSS that no other pokemon in the metagame comes even close to suffering. It could have 6 moveslots instead of 4 and it would still be needing more. Gengar can do all the things you mentioned, but the problem is that it can't do all at the same time. And it wants to. Offensive Gengar is very easy to wall. It requires the opponent to be something slower, without a big SpDef and without priority, otherwise it's done. Stall teams murder it, and more offensive teams don't struggle that much against it either. Stallbreaker Gengar, on the other hand, is often dead weight against offensive teams, with its role being pretty much burning something and then faiting, even though it's great against stall.

So running Gengar means that, half the matches, you are going to play with 5 pokemon. Sure, in the other half Gengar is likely going to be your MVP, so it's worth a slot in your team, but I think it has too many limitations to be A+. It is fine in A. It is unpredictable, which is great, and it's pretty much impossible to counter because it has a set for everything, but it often fails to beat many of the things it wishes it could.

LO 3 attacks + Taunt gives stall teams hell as only Chansey can really wall it with SR up, and maybe SpD Zapdos, while also being able to OHKO or revenge kill a ton of offensive Pokemon with just a little bit residual damage (usually SR, SR + 1 LO recoil, or two SR rounds), such as unbosted Mega Charizard X, Garchomp, Terrakion, Landorus, Mega Tyranitar, Kyurem-B, Dragonite, and Breloom. Also, Hidden Power Ice is a really cool option on LO Gengar, as Gengar is a great check to Landorus, and being able to OHKO Landorus back is very useful, as well as OHKO Garchomp, Landorus-T, and Dragonite.

LO + 2 attacks + Taunt + Destiny Bond can fuck up any kind of team, shutting down Chansey on stall teams with Taunt and having fun with the rest of the team with Shadow Ball + Focus Blast or Shadow Ball + Sludge Wave, and if anything manages to avoid the 2HKO from Gengar and threatens to OHKO back, that's why you have Destiny Bond. It is great against offense too, as Taunt can prevent SR from getting up to assist SR weak Pokemon and prevent set up from dangerous sweepers, great two move coverage is still great coverage and 2HKOes anything that offensive teams usually carry, and even if it doesn't, once again Destiny Bond. And it still makes for a decent revenge killer than can OHKO many offensive Pokemon with a bit of previous damage.

SubWoW is very useful against balanced teams and murders stall, at least until stall adapts to it, so not fairing particularly well against offensive is not that much big of a deal really. But still, SubWoW Gengar can lead against Deo-D, set up a Sub or Taunt, depending on if the opponent has Mental Herb or Red Card, and end up KOing Deo-D and having a Sub intact, which is a very good start.

I am not arguing for Gengar to go in A+, i just don't agree when you say that Gengar is often dead weight.

This post has several inaccuracies. First of all sash is only one of its sets and imo the Poison Heal+Substitute is much much better, so it does not realy solely on its sash. Mach Punch helps with its speed. I agree its gets walled by Aegislash but Breloom can spore and then switch to an appropriate counter. It can touch stall with the Substitute/Spore+Focus Punch combo which hurts like hell to any stall pokemon. It is not easy to check because if it behind a Sub or has a sash intact then it will do a good amount of damage or spore you (if something hasn't been spored).

PH + Sub is easy as fuck to wall for stall teams, as any of Mega Venusaur, Aegislash, Clefable, Sylveon, and Gliscor wall it. The only decent PH set i have seen in 6th gen is Leech Seed + Protect, but this set still has huge issues and is mostly used as a glue on teams that have big troubles with Rotom-W, and volt-turn cores in general.

Also, i believe that CB Scizor is a B+ worthy set, as CB Bullet Punch is still an amazing revenge killing tool, CB U-turn hurts like hell most Pokemon on offensive teams or lures Pokemon such as Aegislash for Bisharp to trap, and Scizor is still able to force a ton of switches to get into Bullet Punch or U-turn mindgames and get Volt-turn chains started.

 

[Jaiho]

I was aware of that and its fine, but then he shouldnt act like the decisions were made by the people here in this thread or "the community", they arent for the most part. He and his friends/people he respects make all the decisions. Thats not even close to be representitive of "the community" and has nothing to do with this thread, which is basicly the only way for "the community" to participate in the discussion at all.

Is it a problem that Gary talks to good players that don't frequent the thread? A lot of the best players only frequent IRC, and Gary talks to them. There are some good players that just go on PS! as well. The community is the people that play OU, not just people that come here. The good players get to make the decisions. Thats how it works. As one of Gary's friends, I can tell you that he takes into account every good post made in both this and the VR thread. He makes sure every decision is backed by the opinions of high ranking players. He is not some dictator who only listens to his lackeys. He is like the President. The President has advisors, but he listens to the people as well. Also, if you don't like a decision, by all means, argue against it. Sway us to believe that you are right. Don't just complain that you don't get a say, when obviously, you do.

 

[Ninja Charizard]

Alright, I keep seeing people talking about Sash Breloom, and how limited it is, and I'd like to know why aren't more people using the other option.

Breloom @ Life Orb
- Spore
- Mach Punch
- Bullet Seed
- Rock Tomb

Let me give you a few calculations to show what I mean:

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 385-455 (106.3 - 125.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 296-350 (81.7 - 96.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Sand Rush Excadrill is a problem? Not if you have a LO Breloom.

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 354-421 (123.7 - 147.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 272-324 (95.1 - 113.2%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Greninja being a pain in the ass? LO Breloom checks it perfectly, even if you don't have rocks.

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Rock Tomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 179-213 (42.2 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Technician Breloom Rock Tomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 138-164 (32.5 - 38.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Mandibuzz counters Breloom? Think again. Just predict the obvious switch in, use Rock Tomb, and the bird is done before it even gets to use Defog.

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 151-182 (42.8 - 51.7%) -- 66.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 116-140 (32.9 - 39.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Want to send Ferrothorn in to absorb Spore? I would think twice.

So, it doesn't get the perfect uncounterable Spore. So what? The perfect, uncounterable Spore set, is countered by Stealth Rock. This Breloom gives zero fucks about Stealth Rock. It doesn't rely on Spore to succeed, it uses Spore as a means of shutting down slower pokemon and gaining momentum (and forcing switches into something that hates Rock Tomb). The rest of the time, it relies on its sheer offensive power, including one of the strongest priority moves in the meta, a stab that has a statistical BP of 168 (and a maximum BP of 281), and an amazing anti-switch in move.

It's hard to use. Very hard. It requires prediction, mind games, and knowing when the opponent is going to switch, because a lot of things easily check it. But it's very useful, being able to come in and out for the entire match, put things to sleep, force switches, threaten to kill things, revenge kill...

IMO, just the LO set deserves to be A-. If you add the Sash set, I'd put it on A.

 

[114]

LO 3 attacks + Taunt gives stall teams hell as only Chansey can really wall it with SR up, and maybe SpD Zapdos, while also being able to OHKO or revenge kill a ton of offensive Pokemon with just a little bit residual damage (usually SR, SR + 1 LO recoil, or two SR rounds), such as unbosted Mega Charizard X, Garchomp, Terrakion, Landorus, Mega Tyranitar, Kyurem-B, Dragonite, and Breloom. Also, Hidden Power Ice is a really cool option on LO Gengar, as Gengar is a great check to Landorus, and being able to OHKO Landorus back is very useful, as well as OHKO Garchomp, Landorus-T, and Dragonite.

LO + 2 attacks + Taunt + Destiny Bond can fuck up any kind of team, shutting down Chansey on stall teams with Taunt and having fun with the rest of the team with Shadow Ball + Focus Blast or Shadow Ball + Sludge Wave, and if anything manages to avoid the 2HKO from Gengar and threatens to OHKO back, that's why you have Destiny Bond. It is great against offense too, as Taunt can prevent SR from getting up to assist SR weak Pokemon and prevent set up from dangerous sweepers, great two move coverage is still great coverage and 2HKOes anything that offensive teams usually carry, and even if it doesn't, once again Destiny Bond. And it still makes for a decent revenge killer than can OHKO many offensive Pokemon with a bit of previous damage.

SubWoW is very useful against balanced teams and murders stall, at least until stall adapts to it, so not fairing particularly well against offensive is not that much big of a deal really. But still, SubWoW Gengar can lead against Deo-D, set up a Sub or Taunt, depending on if the opponent has Mental Herb or Red Card, and end up KOing Deo-D and having a Sub intact, which is a very good start.

I am not arguing for Gengar to go in A+, i just don't agree when you say that Gengar is often dead weight.

Agree with your points, but I'm definitely arguing for A+ for gengar. Post got buried at the bottom of last page, reiterating the relevant parts:

This generation gengar is actually much more unpredictable, versatile, and stronger.
-LO shadow balls can be spammed very easily thanks to its amazing neutral coverage now including steels, and he gained a useful and stronger stab attack in sludge bomb
-Meta is realizing how amazing taunt and destiny bond are.
-On hyper offense teams gengar can take out 2 pokes per game semi-reliably, due to how strong it is and then how it can sack itself with DB with its 110 speed.
-It will save your team time and time again from Bisharp at +2. You can destiny bond as it sucker punches, then attack it freely because you are faster, or if he sucker punches again he'll kill himself.
-Chansey has been on the rise, so gengar has also responded with taunt.
-Taunt + DB also will also be a great asset against Baton Pass teams, since the taunt-bouncer espeon is fucking weak against LO shadow balls.
-The worst tyranitar can do against gengar is trade; it's no longer a counter. Same goes for heatran if you utilize taunt+DB; it wont be setting up SR and wisping in your face anymore. Both heatran and ttar often hold cores together - Gengar can sacrifice itself to open up the opponent's core, while not really affecting your own core (gengar wasn't meant to switch in often).
-In many ways taunt/db gengar is similar to stall breaker thundy (similar special attacking powers, both have good coverage, both can use taunt to stall break, and both have a "suicide" option DB for gengar and priority t-wave for thundy). Note how Thundy is S-rank.

Seriously this thing is an incredible HO pokemon, taking down a wall guaranteed, and often netting 2+ kills a game easily if played decently, thanks to how almost broken destiny bond can be.

Gengar's premiere set this gen imo:
Taunt/DB/Shadow Ball/Sludge bomb @ LO, 252/252+ Timid (Some may opt for focus shitstorm instead of one of the support moves/sludgebomb)

And as always, the old sets still work fine, and trick-specs/scarf is still viable.

• 4 Attacks LO (Shadow ball, Tbolt, Giga, Dazzling, Focus asshole, Sludgebomb/wave)
• Sub + 3 Attacks
• Taunt+WoW+Painsplit+Shadow ball
• DB+3 Attacks
• Taunt + 3 attacks
• DB+Taunt+ 2 Attacks
• Subsplit + 2 attacks
• Subtaunt + 2 attacks
• Trick (scaf) + 3 attacks
• Trick (specs) + 3 attacks
• Sash-lead

 

[theV8man]

I also think CB Scizor is fine where it is at B+. It's moveset is pure utility, and it parters well with Pokemon that want the Latis gone, as well as other u-turners/volt switchers. I don't think theres enough wrong with it/the meta being too hostile towards it to warrant a decrease in rank.

 

[Rhaegar]

Breloom demoted? Please. Just repeating the set that Ninja Charizard just posted, except sashed.

Breloom @ Focus Sash
- Spore
- Mach Punch
- Bullet Seed
- Rock Tomb

Can anyone honestly ask for a better lead? This just puts in a hell of a lot of work against anything other than Grass pokemon, Mandibuzz, and Deo-D which can all be covered by team support. It's ridiculous how every single move on the set is an amazing lead move when combined with Focus Sash.

-100% accuracy sleep move
-One of the strongest priority moves in the game
-Powerful and breaks sashes
-Lowers the speed of any faster switch-in or even the current Pokemon to ensure a minimum of two hits

Breloom hits really hard and this set generally guarantees a decent minimum output, more so than Deo-D imo due to the variety of options.

Now, I know I merely stated what the moves do but I'm just emphasizing how great even two of those moves would be on a lead. Breloom has all four.

It's hard to explain exactly how effective Breloom can be without it actually being demonstrated, but from what I've observed Sash Breloom is one of the most common leads in top level matches.

The reason why I believe some people find Sash Breloom to be limited is in fact because they use it in a limited fashion. I can't count the number of times I've seen a Sash Breloom up against a faster threat like Latios going right for the Spore on turn 1 as it's reduced to it's Sash when the better play would be to use Rock Tomb on turn 1 to get off some damage and reduce their speed before going for the Spore on turn 2. It's understandable that these players would not find Breloom to be great when they use only a fraction of it's potential.

Breloom is anything but limited, and I in fact feel it should be bumped up. So Breloom for A.

 

[ShadesOfSolomon]

Alright, I keep seeing people talking about Sash Breloom, and how limited it is, and I'd like to know why aren't more people using the other option.

Breloom @ Life Orb
- Spore
- Mach Punch
- Bullet Seed
- Rock Tomb

Let me give you a few calculations to show what I mean:

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 385-455 (106.3 - 125.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 296-350 (81.7 - 96.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Sand Rush Excadrill is a problem? Not if you have a LO Breloom.

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 354-421 (123.7 - 147.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 272-324 (95.1 - 113.2%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Greninja being a pain in the ass? LO Breloom checks it perfectly, even if you don't have rocks.

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Rock Tomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 179-213 (42.2 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Technician Breloom Rock Tomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 138-164 (32.5 - 38.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Mandibuzz counters Breloom? Think again. Just predict the obvious switch in, use Rock Tomb, and the bird is done before it even gets to use Defog.

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 151-182 (42.8 - 51.7%) -- 66.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 116-140 (32.9 - 39.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Want to send Ferrothorn in to absorb Spore? I would think twice.

So, it doesn't get the perfect uncounterable Spore. So what? The perfect, uncounterable Spore set, is countered by Stealth Rock. This Breloom gives zero fucks about Stealth Rock. It doesn't rely on Spore to succeed, it uses Spore as a means of shutting down slower pokemon and gaining momentum (and forcing switches into something that hates Rock Tomb). The rest of the time, it relies on its sheer offensive power, including one of the strongest priority moves in the meta, a stab that has a statistical BP of 168 (and a maximum BP of 281), and an amazing anti-switch in move.

It's hard to use. Very hard. It requires prediction, mind games, and knowing when the opponent is going to switch, because a lot of things easily check it. But it's very useful, being able to come in and out for the entire match, put things to sleep, force switches, threaten to kill things, revenge kill...

IMO, just the LO set deserves to be A-. If you add the Sash set, I'd put it on A.

I think the reason why everyone is talking about Sashloom is the best indication that it deserves to be in A-. The Sashed set isn't necessarily better than the LO set, but it's a lot easier to throw onto a team and expect to pull its weight - especially in an era where hazard removal is everywhere and is easy. In fact, one of its perks is that it actually helps to facilitate hazard removal, because as long as you have it on your team, you're never really risking Bisharp grabbing a +2 from Defog and running away with the match. LO loom and PH loom can wreak absolute havoc, but they're a little harder to use and they need adequate support. Sashloom just needs hazards off the field and it's going to mess something up.

 

[skies]

Yay, Krookodile and Gengar! Since nobody has been talking about Krookodile, just the other three, I'll repost everything I said about it already :)!

Krookodile: C+ Rank -----> B- / B Rank​

Krookodile is a very underrated threat in the current OU metagame, and it is kind of hard to see why. Krookodile has a solid defensive stat spread of 95 / 80 / 70, with a high base 117 Attack stat, and backed by Intimidate, its physical bulk sky rockets. Krookodile's unique typing gives it resistances to Rock-, Ghost-, and Dark-type moves, allowing it to be the perfect counter to Tyranitar, amongst other things. It also gives it an immunity to Electric- and Psychic-types, which can come in handy. The best drawing point of Krookodile is its STAB Knock Off and STAB Earthquake, both greatly spammable moves, being only resisted by Mandibuzz, Heracross, Chesnaught, Hydreigon, Togekiss, and Hawlucha in OU, the only common Pokemon of the aforementioned Pokemon being Mandibuzz and Chesnaught, with Heracross and Togekiss being a little less common. Krookodile's Knock Off cripples any of the Pokemon aforementioned bar Heracross and Hawlucha, as the lack of Leftovers, or Life Orb, in Hydreigon's case, really sucks. Taunt + Knock Off also effectively breaks Stall, especially Chansey. Krookodile also has access to a variety of support moves such as Stealth Rock, Taunt, and Dragon Tail, while it can attempt to pull off an offensive set thanks to Moxie. Moxie Krookodile has fallen out of favor from last generation, but this by no means means it is bad, as with 252+, it hits 466 Speed, outspeeding all base 90 Scarfers and every Pokemon unboosted bar Deoxys-S. Krookodile can also provide Pursuit support, although it is outclassed in this regard by Tyranitar.

However, Krookodile has many crippling flaws that hold it back. Firstly, 92 Speed is a bit lacking for offensive sets and isn't too amazing for non-offensive sets. Next, its Special Defense is really bad, with only a stat of 70, leaving it vulnerable to many special onslaughts. It's typing also gives it many common weaknesses such as Fighting-, Water-, Ice-, Fairy-, and Bug-type moves, along with the not as common Grass-type. Krookodile also suffers from four moveslot symptom, wanting to have any of Stealth Rock, Knock Off, Taunt, Earthquake, Stone Edge, Pursuit, Stone Edge, and Fire Fang for Ferrothorn and Skarmory. Krookodile's Attack isn't too awesome without investment as well, which can leave it set up on Pokemon even with Taunt. Krookodile is also shut down by Taunt, although it runs Taunt itself, many faster Taunters can prevent it from setting Stealth Rock or using its own Taunt. Krookodile's main issue is the weaknesses it haves, which really hold it back. Finally, Krookodile is often outclassed by other Ground-types such as Landorus-T (its main competition) and Hippowdown defensively, and Excadrill and Landorus-I offensively. Overall, though, Krookodile is a very good Pokemon with a really good niche, but it somewhat struggles in the current metagame and is left outclassed often, for these reasons, I think it should move up to B- or B.

Gengar: A Rank -----> A+ Rank​

Gengar is one of the best Pokemon in the OU metagame. It is very versatile, has three immunities, and looks badass as fuck. Gengar has two main sets: Utility Attacker and Destiny Bond. Let's first talk about the utility attacker set. This set focuses on Gengar playing mindgames with Substitute and truly breaking stall with Taunt, while also crippling many things with Will-O-Wisp. Shadow Ball is a very spammable solo-move as it is resisted by few types this generation and is just a great move in general. This set is easily Gengar's best and works so well in the current metagame. Next, Destiny Bond. Destiny Bond is a great set, being very powerful with Life Orb, and, thanks to Gengar's high base Speed, almost always guarantee one or two kills. Shadow Ball and Sludge Wave get great coverage, and combined with Focus Blast, give it flawless coverage and power. Gengar also has a lesser known set I'm fond of: TrickScarf. Choice Scarf Gengar outspeeds so much shit and can Trick it away to cripple a ton of things, while be a surprise Destiny Bond to prevent sweeps such as +1 Mega Charizard X and Choice Scarf Terrakion. Gengar has three great immunities: Ground-, Normal-, and Fighting-type immunities, while resisting Poison-, Bug-, Grass-, and Fairy-types, which can come very much in handy. Gengar is just so versatile, fast, and powerful, and has truly lived up to its being of being one of the very few Pokemon who's been OU for six generations in a row.

Now, Gengar's shortcomings. Gengar is, to put it bluntly, piss-poor bulky. It's about as bulky as paper when it comes down to it, having 60 HP, 60 Defense, and an ok 75 Special Defense. Gengar struggles to fit all the moves it wants into its moveset, and it also lacks recovery, which really sucks when in conjunction with Substitute. Gengar also hates Pursuit, a common move, and with the omnipresence of Bisharp, Gengar took a massive hit. Gengar doesn't take any priority, it simply cannot take any. Gengar's general weakness to all Dark-type moves also sucks, along with the weakness to Ghost-type moves. Gengar can't even switch in on many neutral hits as well, which makes it troubling. Finally, Gengar is left outspeed by many common Pokemon such as Greninja, Thundurus, and Noivern. Overall, though, Gengar is so versatile, strong, and a very potent threat in OU, and for these reasons I believe it should move up to A+.

 

[Karxrida]

Sash Breloom's problem is that it only gets one shot to check something and NEEDS Hazard Removal to even do that, which is really inefficient for a one-time offensive check. Beating Bisharp is cool and all, but it just needs too much support for too little benefit.

 

[Baharoth]

However, Krookodile has many crippling flaws that hold it back. Firstly, 92 Speed is a bit lacking for offensive sets and isn't too amazing for non-offensive sets. Next, its Special Defense is really bad, with only a stat of 70, leaving it vulnerable to many special onslaughts. It's typing also gives it many common weaknesses such as Fighting-, Water-, Ice-, Fairy-, and Bug-type moves, along with the not as common Grass-type. Krookodile also suffers from four moveslot symptom, wanting to have any of Stealth Rock, Knock Off, Taunt, Earthquake, Stone Edge, Pursuit, Stone Edge, and Fire Fang for Ferrothorn and Skarmory. Krookodile's Attack isn't too awesome without investment as well, which can leave it set up on Pokemon even with Taunt. Krookodile is also shut down by Taunt, although it runs Taunt itself, many faster Taunters can prevent it from setting Stealth Rock or using its own Taunt. Krookodile's main issue is the weaknesses it haves, which really hold it back. Finally, Krookodile is often outclassed by other Ground-types such as Landorus-T (its main competition) and Hippowdown defensively, and Excadrill and Landorus-I offensively. Overall, though, Krookodile is a very good Pokemon with a really good niche, but it somewhat struggles in the current metagame and is left outclassed often, for these reasons, I think it should move up to B- or B.

This and the fact that it needs Intimidate to have at least "good" physical bulk is the reason why it shouldnt be B ranked. It has far to many flaws and only few notable strengths, virtually the only thing it has over Lando-T is stab Knock Off in every other aspect its totaly outclassed leaving it with only a minor niche -> C+ is more than fine for it.

 

[Rhaegar]

Sash Breloom's problem is that it only gets one shot to check something and NEEDS Hazard Removal to even do that, which is really inefficient for a one-time offensive check. Beating Bisharp is cool and all, but it just needs too much support for too little benefit.

Sash Breloom doesn't need hazard removal or much support because it's a dedicated lead.

 

[Delibird is Amazing]

This and the fact that it needs Intimidate to have at least "good" physical bulk is the reason why it shouldnt be B ranked. It has far to many flaws and only few notable strengths, virtually the only thing it has over Lando-T is stab Knock Off in every other aspect its totaly outclassed leaving it with only a minor niche -> C+ is more than fine for it.

taunt. ghost and dark resists.

 

[skies]

This and the fact that it needs Intimidate to have at least "good" physical bulk is the reason why it shouldnt be B ranked. It has far to many flaws and only few notable strengths, virtually the only thing it has over Lando-T is stab Knock Off in every other aspect its totaly outclassed leaving it with only a minor niche -> C+ is more than fine for it.

Landorus-T only has a tiny amount of physical bulk more than it and I've not missed it at all. Krookodile lacks a 4x weakness to Ice-type, it has a resistance to Stealth Rock, and has Moxies for offensive sets. Saying it only has one thing over Landorus-T is not a valid statement. And the fact it also has Taunt, a Ghost- and Dark-type resistance, and it also has a phasing move.

 

[Karxrida]

Sash Breloom doesn't need hazard removal or much support because it's a dedicated lead.

So how exactly is it a good lead when Deo-D is everywhere and shuts you down?

 

[Knight of Cydonia]

A rank is fine for Gengar. For an offensive pokemon it fails to match the others in A+ due to a combination of slightly lower power, lack of set up beyond substitute (others in A+ rank can become huge threats if given the chance), poor bulk/mediocre typing defensively and lack of priority/very high speed. Nothing else in A+ has as many shortcomings as Gengar in this highly offensive meta. Its utility moves are nice but against offense it rarely gets a chance to use them and being good against stall is not worth A+ alone. Against an offensive player Gengar rarely gets more than a 1 for 1 trade in my experience and fails to ko what is was supposed to far too often.

Basically Gengar, while very useful, simply has too many flaws compared to the current A+ rank to be considered equal to them.

 

[procrastinat]

Going a bit off topic here, but with the rise in sand usage, Mega-Garchomp seems like it should go back up to A-. It has the sheer power to 2HKO most walls, including quagsire, clefable, skarmory, chansey, and megasaur, allowing faster threats to clean up.

 

[Shurtugal]

I've discovered Hidden Power Ice Gengar still lures in Lando / Lando T / Garchomp while DBond and taunt are as useful as ever

also sash Gengar seems legit thanks to the easy hazard control in today's metagame.

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politoed can set up rain and gets perish song which fucks over baton pass since mr mime isn't used as much - also gets encore and a little speed investment (hitting 197) goes a long way in surprise scald hits (like on mandi) and scoring a Hypnosis on things like Venu

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Breloom is just a hype will suck once it dies down it's just been surprising a few teams and stuff earlier and I personally like other sash mons like Diggersby much better but this is subjective

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Krokodile is hard to use but intimidate and moxie are great abilities and it does OK vs non-focus blast or superpower thund. I wouldn't know much about it since I play HO and Scarf Krookodile falls on the hugest MEH scale ever it's really weak and frail and slow.

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Posted on mobile device ignore shitty quality of post please