Honestly, after looking at calcs, Skuntank still really isn't worth it. HolyAvatar, you were pretty on the money here. It doesn't really accomplish anything aside from tanking some hits. Toxic stalling is still better left to mons like Gliscor or Chansey, and they BOTH have reliable recovery.
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Other The OU Theorymon Project (CLOSED)
- Thread starter alexwolf
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bug rock shedinja where ;-;
I like the general idea of protean starmie, because spinblocking gives you immunity to their shadow sneaks and shadow balls, and stab ghost attacks will tend to destroy them back. Although it doesn't seem to work against any aegislash which has king's shield, which is a shame because it's the most common ghost. I thought it would have more ways to defensively use protean but it really doesn't. Almost all of the ghosts that use ghost/fighting coverage are slower than starmie anyway, so you can just hit them with a shadow ball and make them die most of the time.
Skuntank has a lot of interesting attacks that fur coat makes possible, such as defog, haze, and the ability to reliably suckerpunch/pursuit trap without worrying so much about being punched in the face by a misprediction.
Jaroda unaware doesn't ignore speed boosts so it couldn't do that :(
I like the general idea of protean starmie, because spinblocking gives you immunity to their shadow sneaks and shadow balls, and stab ghost attacks will tend to destroy them back. Although it doesn't seem to work against any aegislash which has king's shield, which is a shame because it's the most common ghost. I thought it would have more ways to defensively use protean but it really doesn't. Almost all of the ghosts that use ghost/fighting coverage are slower than starmie anyway, so you can just hit them with a shadow ball and make them die most of the time.
Skuntank has a lot of interesting attacks that fur coat makes possible, such as defog, haze, and the ability to reliably suckerpunch/pursuit trap without worrying so much about being punched in the face by a misprediction.
Jaroda unaware doesn't ignore speed boosts so it couldn't do that :(
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Skuntank actually loses to Bisharp, so the Defog set isn't really made viable. It's 2HKO'd by +2 Iron Head
how does that make the defog set unviable? He is a defensive pokemon with stats of about 103/190/61 and can defog safely against lots of other physical threats. He has the ability to haze our bisharp to remove hazards and then reset bisharp's stats before he gets killed, successfully defogging without allowing bisharp to sweep.
Uninvested fire blast/flamethrower stops bisharp from being safe to set up repeatedly on you or use substitutes.
Skuntank works better against deosharp than a lot of defoggers too. Using an offensive defog set he has the nice combination of pursuit and defog, which either means you can hit a hazard setter like deoxys-d on the switch for 75% as they predict a defog. Or if they stay in predicting a pursuit, you can defog and remove their hazards. He definitely doesnt seem like a bad defogger at all, plus the offensive set still avoids ohkos from bisharp at +2 and can haze him before being killed, meaning you still successfully defogged even in the worst case scenario (without opening up a bisharp sweep)
Pipotchi you're right, if Skuntank predicts the switch and opens up with anything other than defog, it wins. Substitute is risky since Deo-D is faster and can taunt it. Also, it probably cannot afford to run sub if it runs defogs since you need toxic to wear down things, and you need flamethrower for bisharp.
;lmlm Skuntannks doesn't risk losing because Iron Head 2hkoes since Skuntank can ev to outspeed. It can lose to iron head+sucker punch.
Then again, no recovery and full defensive investment means it is setup bait against anything bulky and will eventually fall to strong attacks.
If someone could come up with a set to show how this mon could work it would make me very happy. I'm pretty sure the torment set could work albeit possibly walled by steel types. The defog set needs something to avoid being useless against a non deosharp team.
;lmlm Skuntannks doesn't risk losing because Iron Head 2hkoes since Skuntank can ev to outspeed. It can lose to iron head+sucker punch.
Then again, no recovery and full defensive investment means it is setup bait against anything bulky and will eventually fall to strong attacks.
If someone could come up with a set to show how this mon could work it would make me very happy. I'm pretty sure the torment set could work albeit possibly walled by steel types. The defog set needs something to avoid being useless against a non deosharp team.
tired so thoughts are a little jumbled
sun would prolly still be bad w/ tort. it's not really the inducer causing sun problems, it's more that it simply doesn't compete with rain, which has a wider variety of better abusers, or even sand. swift swimmers > chloro mons, sr weak fire-types = sac momentum to defog, primary hard hitters beat ttar > lose to ttar, greater diversity of abusers...rain still seems loads better.
protean starmie is whatever, i mean stab ice beam is nice but still psyshock + hydro which hit harder given analytic. and then there's greninja which can't spin but is otherwise basically better.
unaware cobalion wont be good because its easy as hell to actually deal with defensively and offensively, and cant recover at all besides lefties. basically too easily checked/countered and overwhelmed. i guess it has sr.
maybe skunk is decent, i mean it has some decent offensive presence with like sucker punch, pursuit, and fire blast in conjunction with defog. out of these it's the only one that will actually have an effect on the meta/really be used.
sun would prolly still be bad w/ tort. it's not really the inducer causing sun problems, it's more that it simply doesn't compete with rain, which has a wider variety of better abusers, or even sand. swift swimmers > chloro mons, sr weak fire-types = sac momentum to defog, primary hard hitters beat ttar > lose to ttar, greater diversity of abusers...rain still seems loads better.
protean starmie is whatever, i mean stab ice beam is nice but still psyshock + hydro which hit harder given analytic. and then there's greninja which can't spin but is otherwise basically better.
unaware cobalion wont be good because its easy as hell to actually deal with defensively and offensively, and cant recover at all besides lefties. basically too easily checked/countered and overwhelmed. i guess it has sr.
maybe skunk is decent, i mean it has some decent offensive presence with like sucker punch, pursuit, and fire blast in conjunction with defog. out of these it's the only one that will actually have an effect on the meta/really be used.
What makes that set unviable is that it's relatively harmless. Sure, it can predict the switch and FB, but so can zapdos, and Zapdos has Roost for longevity. Skuntank has ZERO recovery outside of its item. As a stall player, I wouldn't pick a defogger unless it can do something else useful (i.e. skarm and zap walling and roosting,). As an offensive player, I wouldn't want to have any dead weight on the team, as that just loses you momentum.
What 4 moves and spread are we actually talking about here? Defog is a single move and doesn't define its entire moveset at all. You can have defog as a move on an offensive mon as well, especially if you have utility attacking moves such as pursuit and priority which skuntank does. And I think you are completely underestimating Skuntank's abilities in the first place.
Skuntank with full offensive investment (252hp/252atk) has similar attack to defensive lando-t and similar defense as fully defensive mandibuzz which are both metagame staples, as well as having access to a slew of unique utility moves and attacks, as well as great typing.
Here's Skuntank's notable utility moves:
Defog
Pursuit (STAB)
Foul Play (STAB)
Haze
Memento
Roar
Taunt
Toxic
Torment
Slap those onto something with actually good speed for a defensive pokemon with 103/160 physical defense equivalent and it can probably succeed in whatever it's trying to do. Defog is just another addition to the things that it can do, and for some teams it has a unique list of immunities/resistances and moves that make it an appropriate defogger for them.
One of the things that makes Mandibuzz so great at dealing with Bisharp is STAB foul play. Skuntank has access to this as well, allowing him to outdamage while being fully defensive if he chooses to. ALSO he is not weak to defiant Thundurus' STAB attack, ohkoing with foul play whilst also not even being 2hko'd.
Skuntank with full offensive investment (252hp/252atk) has similar attack to defensive lando-t and similar defense as fully defensive mandibuzz which are both metagame staples, as well as having access to a slew of unique utility moves and attacks, as well as great typing.
Here's Skuntank's notable utility moves:
Defog
Pursuit (STAB)
Foul Play (STAB)
Haze
Memento
Roar
Taunt
Toxic
Torment
Slap those onto something with actually good speed for a defensive pokemon with 103/160 physical defense equivalent and it can probably succeed in whatever it's trying to do. Defog is just another addition to the things that it can do, and for some teams it has a unique list of immunities/resistances and moves that make it an appropriate defogger for them.
One of the things that makes Mandibuzz so great at dealing with Bisharp is STAB foul play. Skuntank has access to this as well, allowing him to outdamage while being fully defensive if he chooses to. ALSO he is not weak to defiant Thundurus' STAB attack, ohkoing with foul play whilst also not even being 2hko'd.
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Ah, I was treating it as a wall, with full defensive investment. That spread is pretty poor; the one you proposed, however, is pretty interesting.
It's worth noting that Torterra gets grassy terrain, which gives your chlorophyll sweepers a 50% boost on their stab, and halves the power of earthquake so it's easier getting your fire types in safely.
pm your ideas to alexwolf! make sure you don't give mindless buffs to things, and I'm not sure that adding new abilities is what this project wants, or even possible on the PS server.
Crappy sun inducer is easily one of sun's biggest problems. It's just so hard justifying the use of a sun team when Ninetales is such a shitty and restricting Pokemon that is so easy to play around. Hell, as long as you keep SR up you have already handicapped sun teams with Ninetales for the rest of the game. Torterra provides actual defensive synergy and helps with some of sun's problems (Ground-types), has recovery to outlast opposing weather inducers, has SR to support its team, and STAB EQ and Stone Edge to threaten many of the Pokemon that would give to sun teams troubles, such as Talonflame, Heatran, Mega Charizard X, and Mega Charizard Y.
And with your sun inducer not weak to SR, you don't have to stack SR weak Pokemon, just one SR weak Pokemon is fine. Heatran + Mega Doom / Mega Char X is a fine combo, and all of those Fire-types can get past other weather inducers without much trouble (Houndoom with Suny Day as they come in, Mega Char X with DD / SD boosted attacks, Heatran with its Sunny Day + Magma Storm set). Sun teams won't have to use very niche Pokemon with little viability outside of ensuring sun stays up, such as Dugtrio or Gothitelle, as Torterra is way more useful that Ninetales and helps solve many of the problems that sun teams used to have.
Lastly, i don't disagree that rain > sun, but this has always been the case even in 5th gen, and it didn't stop sun from being viable at all. Of course rain didn't have the Swift Swim users back then, but sun didn't have such a great sun inducer, Defog Latios and Latias, Solar Power Heliolisk, Mega Doom, and Mega Char X too. And let's not forget how easily Torterra can switch into the premiere Swfit Swim user on rain teams, Kabutops, while Politoed can't switch into any of the sun sweepers (Mega Doom has Sunny Day, Mega Char X has DD, Heatran has Magma Storm + Sunny Day, Venusaur has Grass STAB, Heliolisk has Electric STAB).
Talking about Heliolisk, his Specs set is really scary under sun. Here are some calcs, assuming a moveset of Thunderbolt / Focus Blast / (Volt Switch / Grass Knot) / Hidden Power Ice:
- 252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Heliolisk Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios in Sun: 240-284 (79.4 - 94%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
- 252 SpA Choice Specs Heliolisk Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 460-544 (113.8 - 134.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- 252 SpA Choice Specs Heliolisk Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 306-362 (72.8 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
- 252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Heliolisk Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Sun: 332-392 (47.1 - 55.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
- 252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Heliolisk Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X in Sun: 167-197 (56 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- 252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Heliolisk Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur in Sun: 124-147 (34 - 40.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
- 252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Heliolisk Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran in Sun: 360-424 (93.2 - 109.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
- 252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Heliolisk Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn in Sun: 458-540 (130.1 - 153.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I hate to break your expectations, but Fur Coat Skuntank (while I still think is pretty cool) was an idea that I proposed when Alex and I were talking about the potential of bolstering one of our Dark/Poison friends with an ability to help boost their BSTs (since Drapion/Skuntank have a lot of potential if they just had some higher stats). In the end, Alex came up with Tough Claws Drapion, which I still think was the coolest of the potential options (and imo was one of the best theorymons to date), but Fur Coat Skuntank was one of the my preliminary suggestions that still has quite a bit of potential.
Unlike Drapion, Skuntank has Sucker Punch, and it also has better coverage in Fire Blast, and cool options like Explosion and Defog. To me, Fur Coat's boost is best seen as a method to boost its overall abilities by relegating EVs to other stats (investing in Special Defense instead of HP while still getting good overall bulk for instance). I think we'd only see this thing's potential in practice, and I'm sure it would reveal value over Tough Claws Drapion, but I'm not about to pretend that I think it's a better theorymon.
As mentioned, Dark mons really want to be specially defensive and have big attack stats-- unfortunately, fur coat doesn't help skuntank do either, but it's great typing (with only 1 weakness) and access to priority, defog, and roar, means it has a lot of interesting potential.
Since I did discuss all the ones on the slate with Alex though, I'll say that Unaware Cobalion, Drought Torterra, and Protean Starmie are all ideas that excited me too though, and I'd like people to make their own decisions about which one they want.
Fur Coat Skuntank I believe would be a really powerful defogger as a beats both Bisharp and Thundurus, but my vote will definitely be going to Drought Torterra as I just love weather and Torterra will definitely be able to get sun teams back on their feet. I'm loving the Idea of Chlorophyl Victreebel with Sun and Grassy Terrain support from Tortera.
Drought Torterra- Torterra can use a funky set with his new abillity, which includes Sand Tomb + Synthesis + Toxic (Just a nice troll :3) or just to set up the sun for Mega Doom or another pokemon who can use the sun better than Torterra itself.
Protean Starmie- Almost as strong as Greninja, but with rapid spin. I don't know how much of a useful pokemon it can be with that abillity..
Fur Coat Skuntank- A very nice addition to this pokemon, that with a solid 103 HP stat can be an amazing physical tank. He also gets defog which is very useful in the curent meta.
Unaware Cobalion- Can stop setting up sweepers, but i don't see the viablity of it other than that :(.
Protean Starmie- Almost as strong as Greninja, but with rapid spin. I don't know how much of a useful pokemon it can be with that abillity..
Fur Coat Skuntank- A very nice addition to this pokemon, that with a solid 103 HP stat can be an amazing physical tank. He also gets defog which is very useful in the curent meta.
Unaware Cobalion- Can stop setting up sweepers, but i don't see the viablity of it other than that :(.
It's voting time guys. PM Salemance with your vote, and the voting will last for 24 hours. Good luck to all the competitors!
Also, the post below the OP has been updated with the three top scorers on the ladder of April and May, and the ladder will be updated shortly with the theorymons of May.
Also, the post below the OP has been updated with the three top scorers on the ladder of April and May, and the ladder will be updated shortly with the theorymons of May.
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The might of the next great Theorymon is here! Who shall lead us into the glorious sunlight of brotherhood and cooperation and out of the darkness of selfishness? Why, it is the latest sub bearer, the one, the only, Drought Torterra!
Today, elect a mon who will bring the wood hammer down, today!
Today, elect a mon who will bring the wood hammer down, today!
I'm actually not sure who I want to vote for. Starmie is probably the only one I'd use, but I'd love to see the affects of a viable sun setter.
Ugh, the struggle is real!
Ugh, the struggle is real!
How can you trust a candidate that doesn't even have a face? Don't we have enough characterless officials who change their colours the second it is convenient for them? Keep Protean Starmie out of power.
Asking us to vote for a goat is bad enough, but this one doesn't even know what's going on around it. Unaware Cobalion is an irresponsible choice.
A full head of hair does not make an exploding skunk any more respectable. What if your daughter is seduced into petting that luxurious Fur Coat only to have her arm blown off? Skuntank is a danger to our families as well as our nasal cavities.
Drought Torterra's protective shell will keep you and your family of fire type sweepers safe while nurturing them in invigorating sunlight.
Vote for family.
Vote for security.
Vote for warmth.
Vote Drought Torterra.
Asking us to vote for a goat is bad enough, but this one doesn't even know what's going on around it. Unaware Cobalion is an irresponsible choice.
A full head of hair does not make an exploding skunk any more respectable. What if your daughter is seduced into petting that luxurious Fur Coat only to have her arm blown off? Skuntank is a danger to our families as well as our nasal cavities.
Drought Torterra's protective shell will keep you and your family of fire type sweepers safe while nurturing them in invigorating sunlight.
Vote for family.
Vote for security.
Vote for warmth.
Vote Drought Torterra.
Vote for warmth, as in, Global Warming? NO WAY!How can you trust a candidate that doesn't even have a face? Don't we have enough characterless officials who change their colours the second it is convenient for them? Keep Protean Starmie out of power.
Asking us to vote for a goat is bad enough, but this one doesn't even know what's going on around it. Unaware Cobalion is an irresponsible choice.
A full head of hair does not make an exploding skunk any more respectable. What if your daughter is seduced into petting that luxurious Fur Coat only to have her arm blown off? Skuntank is a danger to our families as well as our nasal cavities.
Drought Torterra's protective shell will keep you and your family of fire type sweepers safe while nurturing them in invigorating sunlight.
Vote for family.
Vote for security.
Vote for warmth.
Vote Drought Torterra.
We don't need more politicians that will refuse to compromise, we need a politician who will adapt to the issues as they come and do what's best for Theorymon. We need Protean Starmie.
What has this world come to? WE'RE VOTING FOR AN OVERHEATED, OVERSIZED, TREE. Don't be stupid, guys. We need something that can handle any situation, under any circumstance. Protean Starmie is the most versatile of them all. He simply (ice) beams at torterra, and the poor wimp can't take it.
Not only do you call the good people of smogon stupid but proceed to call for murder?
This is an outrage and this, my fellow smogonites, this is the kind of people who support protean Starmie.
Do not vote for this faceless -not even good- murderer.
Do vote for the theorymon that will bring sunshine into our homes.
Help the poor, help the outcast and help yourself!
Vote for Drought Torterra!
This is an outrage and this, my fellow smogonites, this is the kind of people who support protean Starmie.
Do not vote for this faceless -not even good- murderer.
Do vote for the theorymon that will bring sunshine into our homes.
Help the poor, help the outcast and help yourself!
Vote for Drought Torterra!
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VOTING IS CLOSED!
It seems even a new hairdo could make the masses think that Skunktank would be the best candidate with the fashionable Poison type receiving not even a single vote. Even with marvelous defense stat, it seems he was beaten rather thoroughly.
With only one actual vote, Coballion seemed to make the masses unaware of its ability to become unaware. He was already fighting an uphill battle with no reliable recovery but his group could still muster support in at least making the goat receive a vote.
Coming up behind in second with only a third of first place's votes was Starmie showing off his ability to adapt to any new move when needed. His assest have been properly examined and the starfish moves off to the runner up voting to where he hopes to overcome the already waiting Flower Veil Virizion.
The Sun-Bearer Torterra received 15 votes, demolishing the competition with his arsenal of support and coverage, allowing the meta to soon be filled with the pure chaos of the Sun once more.
Thanks for voting yall, hope yall enjoyed this slate just a little!
It seems even a new hairdo could make the masses think that Skunktank would be the best candidate with the fashionable Poison type receiving not even a single vote. Even with marvelous defense stat, it seems he was beaten rather thoroughly.
With only one actual vote, Coballion seemed to make the masses unaware of its ability to become unaware. He was already fighting an uphill battle with no reliable recovery but his group could still muster support in at least making the goat receive a vote.
Coming up behind in second with only a third of first place's votes was Starmie showing off his ability to adapt to any new move when needed. His assest have been properly examined and the starfish moves off to the runner up voting to where he hopes to overcome the already waiting Flower Veil Virizion.
The Sun-Bearer Torterra received 15 votes, demolishing the competition with his arsenal of support and coverage, allowing the meta to soon be filled with the pure chaos of the Sun once more.
Thanks for voting yall, hope yall enjoyed this slate just a little!
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