Taunt is basically redundant though, even against Stall. If you Trick them a choice item and lock them into a support move, they are going to die anyway once that move runs out of PP. It doesn't matter if they use a healing move or w/e, in 8/16 turns, they'll be struggling regardless. If you lock them into an attacking move, Taunt is entirely useless anyway. So in other words, you are better off using another coverage move over Taunt, because sometimes you actually need a coverage move to beat something like Ferro, because Psyshock won't come close to doing anything to it and Power Whip will most likely be killing you even if you have Rest, so HP Fire would be much more useful than Taunt and would let you remove Ferro so that Mega Gyarados can sweep, for example.
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)
- Thread starter alexwolf
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Yeah I don't really think Goth's TrickScarf stall breaker set should really be used as an argument to bump it higher. That set is extremely matchup reliant, because against any kind of offensive team it's a complete liability and a waste of a teamslot. To be honest, the standard Choice Specs set with Trick already fucks stall hard enough, and it's actually somewhat useful against offensive teams because it's able to trap and kill Pokemon that give its teammates difficulties, such as Specs Keldeo locked into Secret Sword or Mega Venu.
On the matter of raising Goth to B+, I'm not so sure that it's comparable to many of the other Pokemon in that ranking. Goth is the only viable trapper in OU aside from the really subpar Wobbuffet, but saying it's comparable to Mega Manectric, Mega Gardevoir, Mega Medicham, Politoed, Diggersby, and Quagsire is pushing it. Remember, its stall breaking abilities are no where near enough to bump it up, because some of the Pokemon that reside in B+ not only fuck stall, but also provide other forms of support as well without having to rely on team matchup nearly as much. I've started to notice less and less people comparing Pokemon in ranks, which isn't a good thing lol.
On the matter of raising Goth to B+, I'm not so sure that it's comparable to many of the other Pokemon in that ranking. Goth is the only viable trapper in OU aside from the really subpar Wobbuffet, but saying it's comparable to Mega Manectric, Mega Gardevoir, Mega Medicham, Politoed, Diggersby, and Quagsire is pushing it. Remember, its stall breaking abilities are no where near enough to bump it up, because some of the Pokemon that reside in B+ not only fuck stall, but also provide other forms of support as well without having to rely on team matchup nearly as much. I've started to notice less and less people comparing Pokemon in ranks, which isn't a good thing lol.
Thundurus is a good defiant user, but I still think Bisharp is the superior one because it gets STAB knock off, STAB Priority and a better setup move as well as pursuit.
As a frequent user of Mega-Pinsir, I can't see it moving down at all. It only has one truly reliable reliable counter, Skarmory. Rotom-Wash doesn't have reliable recovery and its defense isn't exactly superb, and after stealth rocks damage Zapdos isn't looking to hot. If the opponent does not have any of the three counters stated above and Pinsir gets a free switch, Frustration will literally tear teams to pieces because Pinsir does not need a boost to wreck. I mean were basically looking at a Pokemon that unboosted rivals the power of CB Azumarrill, is faster than Garchomp, and has powerful priority. The only reason the Queen B isn't in S rank is because unlike Azumarill it's got a bad typing, is pretty frail, and is allergic to rocks. How can we even consider to lower this thing to a rank where it'll be considered worse than freakin Charizard Y...
Meh... Meh, very meh. Mandibuzz/M-Gyara instantly come to mind as "pokes that screw with you". M-Scizor would, as well. Handing off a scarf to heatran and doing nothing with psyshock just gives them a fast heatran. And tbh, Yuttt and I have agreed that running pursuit on stall is a must now... Scizor/Aegislash are our two easiest, setter TTar comes to mind as well. In short, that set may derail the old defining standard team of 5 if it doesn't come in on heatran, team doesn't have Aegi in last slot (kinda unlikely tbh) and you basically lose skarm with that set.
Stick with standard goth. At least then I have to pursuit trap you to death... And that occasionally takes two shots if I didn't manage prior damage.
Same here, Pinsir doesnt even need to set up as his main stab already hits like a truck, even unboosted. Zapdos can be played around, Rotom is easily worn down or just killed with mold breaker EQ leaving only Skarm and revengekillers as countermeasures and the latter always have the problem that something needs to die to get them in so even with those things on a team Pinsir can still be a massiv threat. Its only about the rocks realy, keep rocks away from your side and Pinsir wins you games on its own.
Scolipede: B+ Rank ------> A- Rank
However, Scolipede is not all good and well. Scolipede unfortunately brings a Stealth Rock weakness, taking 25% just from switching in. Scolipede is also very frail on the Special Defense side and its HP is flat out horrible, its Defense is also nothing to write home about. Scolipede cannot beat common walls such as Quagsire, Chansey, and Hippowdown, without boosts, which it has trouble getting because of its four moveslot syndrome and bad bulk. It has many common weaknesses such as Fire-, Flying-, Rock-, and Psychic-type weaknesses. Speaking of Flying-types, common Flying-type priority such as Talonflame and Mega Pinsir (well, they're the only ones, but ya know) give it hell, negating any boosts and outspeeding priority. Thanks to Scolipede's Poison-typing it also comes with a lack of resistance to Earthquake, like most Bug-types, a very common move. It also usually has to run Protect to get boosts, and before boosts, it can be outspeed by common Pokemon like Keldeo, Latios, and Terrakion, which isn't great. Overall, Scolipede is a great Pokemon who consistently does its job and is way more deserving to be in a rank with Breloom and Rotom-W than with Gliscor and Slowbro.
EDIT;
Also, I'll discuss Hitmontop later but it should be C Rank imo :)
Adding to this: Offensive adamant Lo scoli hits very hard superb cleaner. I'd personally stick with poison jab, nailing azu is very nice and the most prominent rock slide targets (talon and m pinsir) have to be nailed on the switch anyways. A lot of teams rely on excadrill for speed, but after a speed boost or two you can just eq that and destroy their main method of revenge killing too.Scolipede is a Pokemon I'd like to see moved up. It's very powerful and has access to one of the best abilities in the game: Speed Boost. It is technically a Choice Scarf after just one boost, meaning it can outspeed a whole lot of things at +1 thanks to its very high 112 Speed. I've been using Offensive Scolipede and its Megahorn is absurdly strong, having Poison Jab as a secondary STAB move. Earthquake rounds off its coverage, nailing Steel-types that resist this combo. Rock Slide is a very viable option to beat Talonflame on the switch, easily OHKO'ing it, along with hitting other Fire-, and Bug-types! Scolipede has Swords Dance to bolster its Attack while Speed Boost boosts its Speed, making it hard to revenge kill it while lacking priority. Scolipede is no slouch defensively either, it has an ok 89 base Defense, allowing it to take on weaker priority. Poison-typing is just better this generation, hitting the prominent Fairy-types such as Azumarill and Clefable, and Bug-typing is just well, Bug-type, as usual. Scolipede also has gotten a rise of usage thanks to Baton Pass, as it's on any good Baton Pass team thanks to what it provides. It brings Speed Boost, Iron Defense, Substitute, and a cool Poison-typing, along with Baton Pass of course! Scolipede is just great and it is a fantastic choice for offensive and balance teams alike! (And Baton Pass teams, but fuck Baton Pass)
Scolipede: B+ Rank ------> A- Rank
However, Scolipede is not all good and well. Scolipede unfortunately brings a Stealth Rock weakness, taking 25% just from switching in. Scolipede is also very frail on the Special Defense side and its HP is flat out horrible, its Defense is also nothing to write home about. Scolipede cannot beat common walls such as Quagsire, Chansey, and Hippowdown, without boosts, which it has trouble getting because of its four moveslot syndrome and bad bulk. It has many common weaknesses such as Fire-, Flying-, Rock-, and Psychic-type weaknesses. Speaking of Flying-types, common Flying-type priority such as Talonflame and Mega Pinsir (well, they're the only ones, but ya know) give it hell, negating any boosts and outspeeding priority. Thanks to Scolipede's Poison-typing it also comes with a lack of resistance to Earthquake, like most Bug-types, a very common move. It also usually has to run Protect to get boosts, and before boosts, it can be outspeed by common Pokemon like Keldeo, Latios, and Terrakion, which isn't great. Overall, Scolipede is a great Pokemon who consistently does its job and is way more deserving to be in a rank with Breloom and Rotom-W than with Gliscor and Slowbro.
EDIT;
Also, I'll discuss Hitmontop later but it should be C Rank imo :)
More importantly, this mofo OHKO's deo-d leads with megahorn. That is simply beautiful.
This isn't even a high roll required or anything:
252+ Atk Life Orb Scolipede Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Deoxys-D: 307-367 (100.9 - 120.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Goddam that's just amazing
EDIT: Woop de fucking do there goes my #500 post
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Jacks0n
formerly grassycow
yeh Ive used offencive LO scoli quite a bit and its really great. I could see it moving up but scoli almost needs hazard support, bird checks and wallbreakers which could prevent it going to A-, though I am fine with either.
Not giving this as a reason Pinsir should move down, but imo the best checks to Pinsir aren't stuff like Rotom and Zapdos. Even Skarmory can be beaten if Pinsir is paired with Gothitelle or Magnezone. I find the best checks to Pinsir to be faster mons which can take a +2 Quick Attack and then OHKO such as Thundurus, Latios, Latias, and scarfers like Chomp, Drill, and Tar. Also Talonflame of course. Most offensive teams have an average of two of these.
It's hard enough for Pinsir to snag an SD boost against offense (as mentioned before, it cant even boost against or kill a healthy Keldeo without being nailed by Scald or OHKOed by Hydro Pump) but even after it does it can most likely be taken down by one of the above mentioned things once it gets a kill. If it's not boosted, even the more frail mons such as Greninja can take it out. It doesn't like switching out after a boost or even after an unboosted transformation because of how much it hates rocks.
Pinsir is amazing against balance and can just murder stall when paired with Gothitelle but it really finds a hard time against offense which makes Pokemon like Mega Mawile far better options. Mega Mawile's Play Rough and Sucker Punch have more immediate power than Pinsir's Return and Quick Attack respectively. It has far better typing defensively along with Intimidate meaning non-stab Earthquakes don't even do 50% to it. It has terrifying immediate power combined with two different sets which the opponent would have to guess between. This gives it an easier time setting up either a Sub or SD, and it can switch in and out as it pleases since it resists rocks unlike Pinsir who loathes switching out once it transforms. Sure, it's not as fast as Pinsir but as I said, there are faster mons than Pinsir on offense that can take a +2 QA and OHKO. Mawile, on the other hand, can take offensive hits and retaliate with an OHKO. If it manages to set up a sub it's likely something in the other team is going to die. Mawile is pretty destructive against stall too with Play Rough 2HKOing Quagsire and Focus Punch doing about 70% to Skarmory who can't even afford to Roost because Focus Punch would just knock it out.
Pinsir is too good to be grouped with the mons in A but it's definitely below most of the mons in A+. I really feel it shouldn't be in the same tier as Mawile. I do feel that theres a lot of difference between the mons in A+. For example, just assuming there were A++ and A+- tiers with A+ being the middle one, I'd put Mawile, Azumarill, and MScizor in A++ with Pinsir, Clefable, Mega Tyranitar, and maybe Talonflame in A+-, because the latter four really don't compare to the former three to be placed in the same tier.
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I've been meaning to get around to this for a while but seeming some negative talk about it here over the past week motivated me. I've been using Specially Defensive Empoleon on a hazard-stacking balance team for over a month now and I don't see the flaws of a D Rank or even C- Rank Pokemon in this one.
I would like to nominate Empoleon
to be moved up from D Rank to B Rank. Yes, B Rank; quite the jump but Empoleon shouldn't have been in D in the first place for reasons I will delve into and Empoleon seems slightly better tiered with Pokemon like Amoonguss and Chesnaught than the Pokemon for C+ or B- for reasons I will again get into.
So I want to get this topic's elephant in the room out of the way first. Empoleon's biggest problem is being out-classed by Heatran in some cases, fair but not the full story. They play mostly the same and are very interchangeable if you can stand Empoleon's Fire-neutrality and slightly lower bulk. And by slightly I mean we're talking a 5% difference in damage when each is hit with the same OHKOing Focus Blast. That Water-/Steel-typing both makes and hinders Empoleon in some ways compared to Heatran's Fire/Steel + Flash Fire but the negative comparisons to Heatran made by other Smogon users, when it comes to special walling, are mostly unjustified.
What Special Attackers beat Empoleon that can't bypass Heatran? Heatran loses to Mega Charizard Y with either Focus Blast or Earthquake, both Heatran and Empoleon are 2HKOed by Life Orb Thundurus-I, neither fare well against Mega Gardevoir Focus Blast, and I know that it's more complicated than that because Focus Blast is a shit move and not all Thundurus and Gardevoir carry it and some of Heatran's utility comes from physical defensively-decent typing as well but that's a little beside the point but worth noting; out of all the currently ranked Pokemon down to B- rank, Aegislash (Protect helps to hit it in Blade Form or stall Lefties if it King's Shields and Yawn later on), Mega Manectric, Zapdos, and (yeah, I'll add it) Thundurus w/o Focus Blast are the only special attackers that consistently lose to Heatran but beat Empoleon discrediting Thunderbolt Latios which is less common than Surf variants, both of which can be PHazed by either Pokemon. I could add Mega Venusaur to Heatran's side as well but even Heatran can be bested by Leech Seed, Knock Off, or EQ variants. There are a lot of variables in this but the point is that Heatran and Empoleon preform the role of special walling on fairly equal footing overall with Heatran still having an upper hand which is why I'm not asking for an A or even B+ Rank here.
As for the offensive capabilities of each Pokemon (still talking about the specially defensive sets btw), Heatran is obviously superior in power and disallows Pokemon like Ferrothorn, Mega Venusaur, and Chenaught from coming in freely. Empoleon, while not quite as powerful, still can hit certain Pokemon harder with Scald on switch than Heatran can with Lava Plume; these Pokemon include Terrakion, Tyranitar, Garchomp, Landorus, and Heatran itself. Not saying that either of these Pokemon beat or can even tango with the Pokemon they hit, I'm just pointing out that they keep different sets of Pokemon from gaining free entry into battle with Heatran keeping some key hazard-setters out while Empoleon's STAB is more threatening to offensive threats typically.
Finally, I feel that Heatran and Empoleon each have a specialty Pokemon that really tips the scales in one or the other's favor in team-building; these Pokemon are Talonflame and Greninja. Heatran can play around with Talonflame while Empoleon is a hard check to Greninja. Heatran-Mega Venusaur cores are manhandled by Extrasensory Greninja and Empoleon-Mega Venusaur cores struggle against late-game CB/SD Flare Blitz Talonflame. It's also very important to note that Heatran is immune to burn, which can be an absolute life-saver when dealing with Pokemon like Mew and SubWoW Gengar, definitely has Empoleon there.
So to summarize, Empoleon and Heatran are fairly interchangeable depending on your what your team already has covered or needs covered. I'm not trying to discredit Heatran in any way, I'm just giving Empoleon its due that no one else has given it by pointing out that it is a viable Heatran replacement that has enough of its own merits to not be entirely out-classed.
But moving away from Heatran, perhaps Empoleon's largest advantage over other special walls is Yawn. Yawn is one of those moves that is criminally underrated, mostly because so few walls have access to it so it's rare to begin with. Yawn has the advantage of forcing the opponent to PHaze themselves which might not seem great but unlike-with Roar, your opponent can't attack you without falling asleep until you stop using the move; this lets you rack-up Leftovers recovery in a pinch and can can save Empoleon from situations where other Special Walls like Heatran would simply fail. Protect ensures no damage is being taken from U-Turn or Volt Switch users but Ground-types are also free switch-ins to Volt Switch and forces a Pokemon to sleep. Just picture a situation where you just got your Landorus-I into battle for free on a predicted Volt Switch AND the opposing Pokemon is fast asleep giving Landorus a free turn.
So I think I made my point on Scald, Yawn, and Protect being staples so what's last? Well some would stay Defog and, while it's not a bad option, but even I think there are far better options to fit Defog onto a team and it can be rather counter-productive with Yawn. So I suggest just running Stealth Rock in the last slot. Greninja, Latios, and Heatran are everywhere so Empoleon is never short on opportunities to set up Rocks and Yawn in conjunction with its Water/Steel-typing and Scald make it a nightmare to Defog or Rapid Spin against.
Oh and I'm just gonna slide this in here: Empoleon does work against Swift Swim teams so if that's a worry, Empoleon has you covered.
So all that said, why B Rank specifically? Empoleon is functionally outclassed so that would let it fall into C+ territory but I also feel that Empoleon has enough that is unique to it (Yawn, Water/Steel, different Pokemon coverage with Scald, major Greninja check) that make it different enough to be at least B- but when in comes to functionality I would definitely compare it to Amoonguss or Chesnaught in that one aspect so a flat B fits Empoleon but I won't be offended by a B-. I've been using Chesnaught just as long as Empoleon so I'm not just talking out my ass about it either.
I think the only thing I have left is: If you are not using the following set, you are using Empoleon incorrectly or at least ineffectively. SubPetaya hasn't been decent since Gen IV imo and Defiant Empoleon..Why?
Empoleon @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 Spd (avoids Aegislash speed-tie)
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Protect
- Yawn
- Stealth Rock (Maybe Defog if you can't fit it anywhere else, Maybe Knock Off or Toxic if you somehow have both Rocks and hazard-removal already and still need Emp somehow.)
I hope you enjoyed my book. I didn't plan for it to be this lengthy but that's the heat of the moment I guess.
I would like to nominate Empoleon
So I want to get this topic's elephant in the room out of the way first. Empoleon's biggest problem is being out-classed by Heatran in some cases, fair but not the full story. They play mostly the same and are very interchangeable if you can stand Empoleon's Fire-neutrality and slightly lower bulk. And by slightly I mean we're talking a 5% difference in damage when each is hit with the same OHKOing Focus Blast. That Water-/Steel-typing both makes and hinders Empoleon in some ways compared to Heatran's Fire/Steel + Flash Fire but the negative comparisons to Heatran made by other Smogon users, when it comes to special walling, are mostly unjustified.
What Special Attackers beat Empoleon that can't bypass Heatran? Heatran loses to Mega Charizard Y with either Focus Blast or Earthquake, both Heatran and Empoleon are 2HKOed by Life Orb Thundurus-I, neither fare well against Mega Gardevoir Focus Blast, and I know that it's more complicated than that because Focus Blast is a shit move and not all Thundurus and Gardevoir carry it and some of Heatran's utility comes from physical defensively-decent typing as well but that's a little beside the point but worth noting; out of all the currently ranked Pokemon down to B- rank, Aegislash (Protect helps to hit it in Blade Form or stall Lefties if it King's Shields and Yawn later on), Mega Manectric, Zapdos, and (yeah, I'll add it) Thundurus w/o Focus Blast are the only special attackers that consistently lose to Heatran but beat Empoleon discrediting Thunderbolt Latios which is less common than Surf variants, both of which can be PHazed by either Pokemon. I could add Mega Venusaur to Heatran's side as well but even Heatran can be bested by Leech Seed, Knock Off, or EQ variants. There are a lot of variables in this but the point is that Heatran and Empoleon preform the role of special walling on fairly equal footing overall with Heatran still having an upper hand which is why I'm not asking for an A or even B+ Rank here.
As for the offensive capabilities of each Pokemon (still talking about the specially defensive sets btw), Heatran is obviously superior in power and disallows Pokemon like Ferrothorn, Mega Venusaur, and Chenaught from coming in freely. Empoleon, while not quite as powerful, still can hit certain Pokemon harder with Scald on switch than Heatran can with Lava Plume; these Pokemon include Terrakion, Tyranitar, Garchomp, Landorus, and Heatran itself. Not saying that either of these Pokemon beat or can even tango with the Pokemon they hit, I'm just pointing out that they keep different sets of Pokemon from gaining free entry into battle with Heatran keeping some key hazard-setters out while Empoleon's STAB is more threatening to offensive threats typically.
Finally, I feel that Heatran and Empoleon each have a specialty Pokemon that really tips the scales in one or the other's favor in team-building; these Pokemon are Talonflame and Greninja. Heatran can play around with Talonflame while Empoleon is a hard check to Greninja. Heatran-Mega Venusaur cores are manhandled by Extrasensory Greninja and Empoleon-Mega Venusaur cores struggle against late-game CB/SD Flare Blitz Talonflame. It's also very important to note that Heatran is immune to burn, which can be an absolute life-saver when dealing with Pokemon like Mew and SubWoW Gengar, definitely has Empoleon there.
So to summarize, Empoleon and Heatran are fairly interchangeable depending on your what your team already has covered or needs covered. I'm not trying to discredit Heatran in any way, I'm just giving Empoleon its due that no one else has given it by pointing out that it is a viable Heatran replacement that has enough of its own merits to not be entirely out-classed.
But moving away from Heatran, perhaps Empoleon's largest advantage over other special walls is Yawn. Yawn is one of those moves that is criminally underrated, mostly because so few walls have access to it so it's rare to begin with. Yawn has the advantage of forcing the opponent to PHaze themselves which might not seem great but unlike-with Roar, your opponent can't attack you without falling asleep until you stop using the move; this lets you rack-up Leftovers recovery in a pinch and can can save Empoleon from situations where other Special Walls like Heatran would simply fail. Protect ensures no damage is being taken from U-Turn or Volt Switch users but Ground-types are also free switch-ins to Volt Switch and forces a Pokemon to sleep. Just picture a situation where you just got your Landorus-I into battle for free on a predicted Volt Switch AND the opposing Pokemon is fast asleep giving Landorus a free turn.
So I think I made my point on Scald, Yawn, and Protect being staples so what's last? Well some would stay Defog and, while it's not a bad option, but even I think there are far better options to fit Defog onto a team and it can be rather counter-productive with Yawn. So I suggest just running Stealth Rock in the last slot. Greninja, Latios, and Heatran are everywhere so Empoleon is never short on opportunities to set up Rocks and Yawn in conjunction with its Water/Steel-typing and Scald make it a nightmare to Defog or Rapid Spin against.
Oh and I'm just gonna slide this in here: Empoleon does work against Swift Swim teams so if that's a worry, Empoleon has you covered.
So all that said, why B Rank specifically? Empoleon is functionally outclassed so that would let it fall into C+ territory but I also feel that Empoleon has enough that is unique to it (Yawn, Water/Steel, different Pokemon coverage with Scald, major Greninja check) that make it different enough to be at least B- but when in comes to functionality I would definitely compare it to Amoonguss or Chesnaught in that one aspect so a flat B fits Empoleon but I won't be offended by a B-. I've been using Chesnaught just as long as Empoleon so I'm not just talking out my ass about it either.
I think the only thing I have left is: If you are not using the following set, you are using Empoleon incorrectly or at least ineffectively. SubPetaya hasn't been decent since Gen IV imo and Defiant Empoleon..Why?
Empoleon @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 Spd (avoids Aegislash speed-tie)
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Protect
- Yawn
- Stealth Rock (Maybe Defog if you can't fit it anywhere else, Maybe Knock Off or Toxic if you somehow have both Rocks and hazard-removal already and still need Emp somehow.)
I hope you enjoyed my book. I didn't plan for it to be this lengthy but that's the heat of the moment I guess.
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From my limited experience facing Empoleon I really don't think it belongs in a tier with Gothitelle and Sylveon. The set you posted also doesn't seem at all threatening and Empoleon doesn't get a recovery move either. Heatran threatens teams with it's Protect-Lefties stall because it uses HP draining status on the other team such as Toxic and Wil-O-Wisp with the latter in fact allowing it to cripple many slower physical threats like Azumarill, Aegislash and Tyranitar. Yawn can just be switched around and the mediocre damage scald provides with only a possible burn is not very threatening.I've been meaning to get around to this for a while but seeming some negative talk about it here over the past week motivated me. I've been using Specially Defensive Empoleon on a hazard-stacking balance team for over a month now and I don't see the flaws of a D Rank or even C- Rank Pokemon in this one.
I would like to nominate Empoleonto be moved up from D Rank to B Rank. Yes, B Rank; quite the jump but Empoleon shouldn't have been in D in the first place for reasons I will delve into and Empoleon seems slightly better tiered with Pokemon like Amoonguss and Chesnaught than the Pokemon for C+ or B- for reasons I will again get into.
So I want to get this topic's elephant in the room out of the way first. Empoleon's biggest problem is being out-classed by Heatran in some cases, fair but not the full story. They play mostly the same and are very interchangeable if you can stand Empoleon's Fire-neutrality and slightly lower bulk. And by slightly I mean we're talking a 5% difference in damage when each is hit with the same OHKOing Focus Blast. That Water-/Steel-typing both makes and hinders Empoleon in some ways compared to Heatran's Fire/Steel + Flash Fire but the negative comparisons to Heatran made by other Smogon users, when it comes to special walling, are mostly unjustified.
What Special Attackers beat Empoleon that can't bypass Heatran? Heatran loses to Mega Charizard Y with either Focus Blast or Earthquake, both Heatran and Empoleon are 2HKOed by Life Orb Thundurus-I, neither fare well against Mega Gardevoir Focus Blast, and I know that it's more complicated than that because Focus Blast is a shit move and not all Thundurus and Gardevoir carry it and some of Heatran's utility comes from physical defensively-decent typing as well but that's a little beside the point but worth noting; out of all the currently ranked Pokemon down to B- rank, Aegislash (Protect helps to hit it in Blade Form or stall Lefties if it King's Shields and Yawn later on), Mega Manectric, Zapdos, and (yeah, I'll add it) Thundurus w/o Focus Blast are the only special attackers that consistently lose to Heatran but beat Empoleon discrediting Thunderbolt Latios which is less common than Surf variants, both of which can be PHazed by either Pokemon. I could add Mega Venusaur to Heatran's side as well but even Heatran can be bested by Leech Seed, Knock Off, or EQ variants. There are a lot of variables in this but the point is that Heatran and Empoleon preform the role of special walling on fairly equal footing overall with Heatran still having an upper hand which is why I'm not asking for an A or even B+ Rank here.
As for the offensive capabilities of each Pokemon (still talking about the specially defensive sets btw), Heatran is obviously superior in power and disallows Pokemon like Ferrothorn, Mega Venusaur, and Chenaught from coming in freely. Empoleon, while not quite as powerful, still can hit certain Pokemon harder with Scald on switch than Heatran can with Lava Plume; these Pokemon include Terrakion, Tyranitar, Garchomp, Landorus, and Heatran itself. Not saying that either of these Pokemon beat or can even tango with the Pokemon they hit, I'm just pointing out that they keep different sets of Pokemon from gaining free entry into battle with Heatran keeping some key hazard-setters out while Empoleon's STAB is more threatening to offensive threats typically.
Finally, I feel that Heatran and Empoleon each have a specialty Pokemon that really tips the scales in one or the other's favor in team-building; these Pokemon are Talonflame and Greninja. Heatran can play around with Talonflame while Empoleon is a hard check to Greninja. Heatran-Mega Venusaur cores are manhandled by Extrasensory Greninja and Empoleon-Mega Venusaur cores struggle against late-game CB/SD Flare Blitz Talonflame. It's also very important to note that Heatran is immune to burn, which can be an absolute life-saver when dealing with Pokemon like Mew and SubWoW Gengar, definitely has Empoleon there.
So to summarize, Empoleon and Heatran are fairly interchangeable depending on your what your team already has covered or needs covered. I'm not trying to discredit Heatran in any way, I'm just giving Empoleon its due that no one else has given it by pointing out that it is a viable Heatran replacement that has enough of its own merits to not be entirely out-classed.
But moving away from Heatran, perhaps Empoleon's largest advantage over other special walls is Yawn. Yawn is one of those moves that is criminally underrated, mostly because so few walls have access to it so it's rare to begin with. Yawn has the advantage of forcing the opponent to PHaze themselves which might not seem great but unlike-with Roar, your opponent can't attack you without falling asleep until you stop using the move; this lets you rack-up Leftovers recovery in a pinch and can can save Empoleon from situations where other Special Walls like Heatran would simply fail. Protect ensures no damage is being taken from U-Turn or Volt Switch users but Ground-types are also free switch-ins to Volt Switch and forces a Pokemon to sleep. Just picture a situation where you just got your Landorus-I into battle for free on a predicted Volt Switch AND the opposing Pokemon is fast asleep giving Landorus a free turn.
So I think I made my point on Scald, Yawn, and Protect being staples so what's last? Well some would stay Defog and, while it's not a bad option, but even I think there are far better options to fit Defog onto a team and it can be rather counter-productive with Yawn. So I suggest just running Stealth Rock in the last slot. Greninja, Latios, and Heatran are everywhere so Empoleon is never short on opportunities to set up Rocks and Yawn in conjunction with its Water/Steel-typing and Scald make it a nightmare to Defog or Rapid Spin against.
Oh and I'm just gonna slide this in here: Empoleon does work against Swift Swim teams so if that's a worry, Empoleon has you covered.
So all that said, why B Rank specifically? Empoleon is functionally outclassed so that would let it fall into C+ territory but I also feel that Empoleon has enough that is unique to it (Yawn, Water/Steel, different Pokemon coverage with Scald, major Greninja check) that make it different enough to be at least B- but when in comes to functionality I would definitely compare it to Amoonguss or Chesnaught in that one aspect so a flat B fits Empoleon but I won't be offended by a B-. I've been using Chesnaught just as long as Empoleon so I'm not just talking out my ass about it either.
I think the only thing I have left is: If you are not using the following set, you are using Empoleon incorrectly or at least ineffectively. SubPetaya hasn't been decent since Gen IV imo and Defiant Empoleon..Why?
Empoleon @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 Spd (avoids Aegislash speed-tie)
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Protect
- Yawn
- Stealth Rock (Maybe Defog if you can't fit it anywhere else)
I hope you enjoyed my book. I didn't plan for it to be this lengthy but that's the heat of the moment I guess.
Also, any decent Aegislash running Sacred Sword runs about 16 speed to outspeed uninvested Ttar anyway.
Rotosect
Banned deucer.
Empoleon's only niche is Defog, but it happens to be the worst user of the move in OU because it flat out loses to Bisharp and Thundurus, without any way to get around them once they get a Defiant boost.
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 446-526 (119.8 - 141.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
As a bulky water type it doesn't work because it lacks reliable recovery and has two common and nasty physical weaknesses to ground and fighting, and as a bulky attacker its offenses and speed are just too mediocre to work out.
Everything Empoleon can do in OU another pokemon can do better, but it's not outright terrible, so D rank is fitting for it.
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 446-526 (119.8 - 141.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
As a bulky water type it doesn't work because it lacks reliable recovery and has two common and nasty physical weaknesses to ground and fighting, and as a bulky attacker its offenses and speed are just too mediocre to work out.
Everything Empoleon can do in OU another pokemon can do better, but it's not outright terrible, so D rank is fitting for it.
To be honest, I always thought that Empoleon wasn't really good enough to use at all in OU. If anything, I'd probably remove it altogether but it can probably get away with being D for the time being. As Roto said, there's hardly any reason to use it over anything else. It's hopelessly outclassed by almost everything as a bulky water, mostly outclassed by the other defoggers (Skarmory, Latias, Mandibuzz, etc) and there are much better SR setters out there too. It's not even that good in UU let alone here.
You make good points here. It is true that as long as the opponent has revenge killers that you mentioned it can't sweep cleanly. I wouldn't really mention Lati@s because after some residual damage (1 or 2 switches to Stealth Rocks) Quick Attack KO's after a boost. One of the great things about Mega Pinsir is that a lot of fast mons that give it trouble are Pursuit trapped by Band Tyranitar. As for the scarfers, because they will always use a Rock type move it's easy to just switch into something that resists.
When I use Pinsir, it rarely gets switched out. Maybe once or twice to use Frustration on Amoonguss or something, and then the last time for the sweep. Mega-Mawile has a great ablilty, but so does Pinsir with Mold Breaker to kill one of its counters, Rotom-W, Moxie to grab a free boost, and, most importantly, Hyper Cutter. Hyper Cutter is such an underrated ability in that it allows Pinsir to fire off it's Frustration or use Swords Dance without letting Landorus-T to come in an lower attack. On the other hand, if defensive Landorus switches into Mega-Mawile Play Rough doesn't 2HKO. The most off-putting thing for me about Mega-Mawile is that it's walled by common defensive mons. Mega-Venusaur is everywhere, on many types of teams, and if you use Iron Head you have to sacrifice Focus Punch to get past Heatran, and then how do you break Skarmory?
All in all, I find Pinsir to be a more reliable hole-puncher than Mawile because of Hyper Cutter and it's harder to wall. The one thing that does reliable wall it is so damn easy to trap with teammates. However, Mega-Mawile is a mile better defensively and is IMO the preferable option for a sweeper because it can set up various times in a match.
Nominating Gothitelle for B+ Rank.
Goth murders stall, it's not even funny. It can choose to take out a thing or two out of generic teams, and the fact that it's not that deadweight against other playstyles is awesome too. Well, Goth definitely deserves to be on B+ rank coz of its ability to manhandle stall, cripple bitches like Chansey and Clefable, and tailor slots to remove specific threats.
It's not going any higher either, so I strongly believe that Goth deserves B+.
Btw, Empoleon sucks and only a retard would use it lel.
Goth murders stall, it's not even funny. It can choose to take out a thing or two out of generic teams, and the fact that it's not that deadweight against other playstyles is awesome too. Well, Goth definitely deserves to be on B+ rank coz of its ability to manhandle stall, cripple bitches like Chansey and Clefable, and tailor slots to remove specific threats.
It's not going any higher either, so I strongly believe that Goth deserves B+.
Btw, Empoleon sucks and only a retard would use it lel.
Goth is barely, not even worthy of B, it's sure as fuck not B+. It kinda does something sometime against offense but it's basically a dead weight and ends up being death fodder. It's like playing 5v6 every offensive matchup, which is pretty silly. If stall was very prominent or even close to on par with offense in terms of usage and effectiveness, Goth would be much better, but it struggles in such an offensive metagame. Also if your main goal is to trap Steels for something like Pinsir, then Mag basically outclasses it because it handles Ferro/Skarm and ISN'T dead weight against offense, as it has a defensive/offensive typing that lets it check things like Talonflame, Mega Scizor (which with some Speed it can revenge kill easily), Azumarill, CM Clefable, Thundy without a Fighting move, Latios, physically biased KyuB, etc.; and it hits insanely hard. Anyways that's sorta irrelevant, you really get more out of lures and stall breakers like Mew and Gengar, which are useful in every matchup, not just stall because of their capabilities outside of such that Gothitelle lacks. If anything I'd advocate for Goth to be moved down to B-, it's really not that good.
Jaiho
bandy legged troll
Well, do you want them to drop or go up? you can't just say "mmm" and be done with it. Personally I think they are both fine where they are, but please, give us your opinion.
This is viability, not usage. Snorlax is currently UU in usage, but viability and usage are not the same thing.
Guess what? Bisharp is 4x weak to Fighting and it is A+. Weaknesses can hardly ever be considered actual arguments unless a Pokemon has tons of common weaknesses, and Snorlax has only one. Usage and tiering does not amount to ranking, Hippowdown is UU (for whatever reason) and it is ranked A. You completely ignore the fact that it has gigantic HP and SpD, with a very high Attack as well. Fun fact: Assault Vest Snorlax is bulkier than Bold Blissey and also just a bit lower Special Defense than Bold Chansey as well! These are two notorious Pokemon with high Special Defense, and Snorlax is on par with them. I don't like Snorlax all that much, but saying it has no place in the OU tier is completely false. Do you care to provide any other arguments besides that it has a weakness and its usage is not OU (two very invalid arguments if you ask me)?
No reliable recovery cripples it as a special tank, and despite a wide movepool, its ridiculously slow and 110 attack actually isn't that great. Not to mention that fighting is actually quite a common type, its a bad type to be weak to, even though its the only one.
Thus, its basically reduced to a sub-par curse sweeper (or LOL STOCKPILE) which can be quite easily stopped by phazing, a respectable ghost, or can just be easily powered through with a keldeo or terrak or basically any decent specs/band user. Unlike something like suicune, this thing has no great resistances to take advantage of, and its best mono-attack which is crunch isn't even stab, suicune has STAB scald with a disgusting burn chance.
So yeah snorlax is pretty sub-par, its best used as a mediocre AV user, which admittedly can take Char-y in conjunction with thick fat and AV, but hey, AV slowking can do it too :I a few better sets can also take char-y, like bulky talonflame, cbbnite, bulky gyara, even mantine lol.
C- rank at best imo.
Say, while we mentioned suicune, what about that thing :O I've used it once or twice and its p. gud, i'd grant it a B atleast just for being so bulky
Does anybody else feel that we're just biding time until BP finally gets judgment handed down on it? I'm sure that it's going to affect the tier someway (not as dramatically as the banning of M-Khan or M-Luke, but subtler the way Swagger's ban did) so all our rankings right now are gonna be up in the air again until the meta absorbs the new information.
Might drop hippo down a rank... I agree, Skarm/Hippo kinda are about the same level of importance. Skarm has the crucial counter to pinsir who is a poke that isn't terribly common but stall can't afford to ignore it. Hippo can set exca up to sweep, but TTar does that a bit better. Defensively, hippo has great bulk but falls short on a lot of the pokemon I wish he'd counter (falls short of zardx just a bit, can't counter SD Mawile although he's so close... a little residual puts him over the edge. Think I'm kidding?)
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 357-420 (85 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
He's so close to losing and obviously eq can't KO. It's just so many mons that Hippo could counter and would make him instantly premier physical wall... but no, he just falls short.
That's a pretty dumb calc. In what world is anything going go be living a +2 unresistant STAB Play Rough from Mawile? The fact that it actually has a pretty high chance of living that should show you just how impressive its bulk is. Skarm doesn't really do much better either because a +2 Fire Fang is a guaranteed OHKO after rocks. Hippo also avoids the 2HKO from Adamant Zard X's Flare Blitz. That's just amazing. I'm not saying that Hippo can't be moved down, but questioning Hippo's defensive capabilities because it falls short of countering a +2 Mega Mawile is absurd, and should never be used as an argument for any defensive Pokemon.
- Status