I completely support this. Although the goose is a little slow vs Top tier threats, it is basically on-par with Exploud with being one of the best SW abusers in the tier. If you dont resist the facade, prepare to get OHKO/2HKO'd. Even if you do resist, you need a TON of bulk to still not get 2hko'd (for reference, Facade 2hkos Escavalier). If you passed the test, congrats, get 2hkod by coverage moves. Not even usual reliable stops to physical attackers (M-Banette) beat the goose bc you can't burn it. Sure, its bulk is non-exsictent, but it's power is a much better trade off. Zangoose to B+/A-Nomiating Zangoose for B+ rank
B -----> B+
In BW2 Zangoose was gifted with the ability Toxic Boost which works like guts but only with poison. After Zangoose activates his toxic orb, he virtually has no counters as STAB facade boosted by toxic boost hits like a truck. Calcs:
252+ Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 160-190 (48 - 57%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 288-339 (53.9 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Registeel: 278-328 (76.3 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Zangoose has also a better movepool than Swellow, having knock off and Close combat to dispose Steel and Rock types who wall swellow. He is also pretty fast, base 90 speed is nothing to be ashamed of and he can revengekill a lot of fast frail sweepers with Quick attack:
252+ Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sharpedo: 201-237 (71.5 - 84.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Quick Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Jolteon: 150-177 (55.1 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
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Sitrus Berry activates Unburden and Slurpuff outspeeds the entire tier once Slurpuff activates. Plus it is capable of getting high amounts of boosts. Sorry that I haven't been responding to your other arguments in more detail, but I'm kinda busy atm.
Jacks0n
formerly grassycow
I could possibly see zangoose moving to B but definately not A-. Yes it has a great wallbreak capacity but is frail asf, gets worn down so quickly with toxic orb and can be revenge killed so easily. All bulky pokemon can not withstand generally more than two toxic orb adamant facade's and all offencive pokemon straight up die but with pokemon such as scarf braviary, moltres, coballion, sharpedo, zoruark, yanmega, virizion, sceptile, delphox, mismagius, vivillion ect. that are all faster and can KO sangoose really hurts it. I can see it moving to B+ simply because it is insanely strong but thats about it. B+ seems fine.
Yeah, A- is a bit too high. B- is fine
And, again, Sticky Web makes it so if you don't have a fast flyer/priority, it is pretty much impossible to revenge, which makes it so dangerous in the first place
And, again, Sticky Web makes it so if you don't have a fast flyer/priority, it is pretty much impossible to revenge, which makes it so dangerous in the first place
So basically does S rank mean most likely to get banned?
PS! Name: Sharko
PS! Name: Sharko
Hmmm well first she has spikes and is the ONLY pokemon who can spinblock their own hazards. Also, as the description says, S ranks are able to wallbreak very well. Froslass does have a good Sp. Attack stat.
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Golurk can also spinblock his own hazards, what makes Froslass so good is his base speed, destiny bond, special attack and taunt.
Yes and no, S rank pokemon, are as the OP states,
While Pokemon, of this rank are more likely to be banned than pokemon of other ranks, this doesn't necessarily mean that those pokemon are broken. Or that Pokemon in lower ranks can't be more broken, though it is unlikely anything below A+ will ever be suspect.
Try not to double post (I merged them), there is an edit button in the lower left hand corner, right below your post.
Also Froslass really does not have a good Special Attack Stat @ both above posts, base 80 leaves a lot to be desired, however as Mew2 points out, its high base speed, access to Taunt, D bond, and Spikes, as well as her typing (and ability to take on defoggers, thanks to its Ice-Type STAB), make Froslass the best spike stacker in the tier.
As someone who's used Zangoose quite a lot in both BW2 RU and XY RU, i can agree with this move. Zangoose is definitely an underrated wallbreaker and Pokemon in this metagame that deserves to be placed in B+ rank. As mentioned by Mew2, Zangoose's sheer power once it gets a Toxic Boost is absolutely absurd, and even reasonably bulky things such as Slowking can end up being cleanly OHKO'd by a Facade, making this Pokemon a nightmare for slower teams to deal with once it gets going. Outside of just its sheer power, Zangoose has actually overall benefitted from the new generation imo because of two things: Knock Off and Sticky Web. Zangoose's reliance on the only 70 BP Night Slash last generation meant that it often struggled against really bulky Ghost-types, however with Knock Off essentially being 97.5 BP on the first hit and removing Leftovers, Zangoose has a significantly easier time denting these Pokemon instead of simply being forced out. The fact that Knock Off can remove Eviolite from say Gligar is a big plus too.Nomiating Zangoose for B+ rank
B -----> B+
In BW2 Zangoose was gifted with the ability Toxic Boost which works like guts but only with poison. After Zangoose activates his toxic orb, he virtually has no counters as STAB facade boosted by toxic boost hits like a truck. Calcs:
252+ Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 160-190 (48 - 57%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 288-339 (53.9 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Registeel: 278-328 (76.3 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Zangoose has also a better movepool than Swellow, having knock off and Close combat to dispose Steel and Rock types who wall swellow. He is also pretty fast, base 90 speed is nothing to be ashamed of and he can revengekill a lot of fast frail sweepers with Quick attack:
252+ Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sharpedo: 201-237 (71.5 - 84.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Quick Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Jolteon: 150-177 (55.1 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
As for Sticky Web, the fact that Shuckle can set it up so reliably in this tier makes Zangoose even more of a monster, because while Zangoose's 90 base Speed is good, it holds it back sometimes because its not on the level of say Durant's base 109, and there are plenty of faster Pokemon that can take a Quick Attack and revenge kill it. Sticky Web fixes this problem for the most part and ensures that Mangoose gets the jump on pretty much every grounded Pokemon, making it that much harder to deal with for your opponent.
However, although i think that Zangoose's new role as a webs abuser as well as simply its sheer power makes it good enough for B+, i wouldn't move it up any higher than that simply because of its frailty and reliance on Toxic Orb. Zangoose's 73/60/60 defenses and lack of resistances aren't doing it any favors, and can make it pretty hard to safely activate its ability, often meaning that goose needs to come in on the revenge or on a volt switch/u-turn to get it activated without taking major damage. Furthermore, Zangoose's reliance on Toxic Orb reduces its longevity even further, and turns Zangoose into an extremely powerful, but short lived nuke.
TL;DR Zangoose is really cool, it should be B+ imo, but no higher.
Lots of fun stuff to cover. Hopefully I get to it all:
Swellow: Digging way back here because I didn't cover it in my last post. I definitely think Swellow needs to be moved down to C+/C. On top of not being able to deal with Rocks or Steels very well (most of which are pretty damn bulky) we also just got Jolteon, an Electric-type that naturally outspeeds Swellow. This makes it very difficult to sweep late-game with Swellow as the opponent will likely save Jolteon for the end (assuming he/she has one of course) to protect against Swellow sweeping. There's also the fact that Jolteon could be paired with a Scarf user, or even a Steel- or Rock-type itself. Inability to beat Rocks and Steels, Jolteon naturally outspeeding it, and the vast majority of Scarfers being able to lay waste to Swellow's pathetic defenses all make it very hard to use. I think C+ would be ok for it as the Specs set at least lets it do something to Rock-types, but it's still getting dumped by Jolteon and Scarfers.
Braviary: Another I missed a while ago, but with the introduction of Jolteon, the Scarf set takes a major hit. Scarf Braviary is now forced to run Jolly, or be outsped by Jolteon, even after the Scarf boost. Much of the boost from using Scarf Braviary is the ability to clean up much faster than most other Scarf users through the use of an Adamant nature and not really missing out on anything. However, this has changed with Jolteon, a Pokemon that not only outspeeds Adamant Scarf Braviary, but also OHKOes it with STAB T-Bolt / Volt Switch. Now, Braviary does have other sets it can run. Choice Band Braviary is damn hard to face down, especially on Sticky Web teams as it discourages the use of Defog by being able to, at worst, 2HKO the entire tier with the right move. For those not wanting to go the Choice item route, there's SubBU, which is fairly useful on more balanced teams in need of a less reckless way to use Braviary. And there's a simple Life Orb set w/Roost, which is probably the best set to abuse Defiant with since it can switch moves and still has insane power at +2. So, where does that leave Braviary? Through all of this, I think its versaitlity, undeniable niche as the best Defiant user in the tier, and the ability to pick apart much of the metagame with STABs + Superpower alone make it good enough for B+, even though it has gained a new check in Jolteon.
Drapion: This is an interesting one. Drapion. It is one of few Dark-types that actually doesn't mind the introduction of Fairy-types thanks to its secondary Poison STAB. Knock Off is huge for this thing as it now has a reliable STAB move to use in almost any situation. The only Pokemon in RU that are immune to Knock Off's boosted hit are Mega-Bannette (weak to Dark, so bye-bye) and Mega-Abomasnow (weak to Poison) so it's a really safe move to use unless the opponent has Coablion (Virizion can't OHKO at +1 and goes down to Poison Jab) Taunt+SD is probably Drapion's best set, and it's great for breaking down shit like Reuniclus, Cresselia, Cofagirgus, and most Pokemon on Stall teams. Drapion can also run an effective SpDef set thanks to its odd, but very useful Poison / Dark typing. Drapion's problems lie in its lack of reliable recovery (can be fixed with Wish support from Aroma or Mola) and the fact that it needs to boost up to do serious damage. I'm really torn on this one as it struggles with 2 of the S rank Pokemon, Delphox and Rhyperior, but is also arguably the most versatile Dark-type in terms of both offense and defense. I feel it has just enough going for it to move up to A- though.
Bannette (Mega) - Totally on board with this move. Bannette is a great offensive utility Pokemon. Sure, it has to get its Mega Evolution in before it can do much of anything, but once it gets past that, you have one of the best offensive utility Pokemon in the tier. Bannette's main issues lie in getting its Mega Evolution activated, and 4MSS. Sub, Sucker Punch, Knock Off, Wisp, Pain Split, D-Bond, Taunt, Shadow Claw, and Shadow Sneak. All are perfectly viable move on Bannette, but you only have four moveslots. Taunt and D-Bond are absolute musts imo, so you only have two slots left for seven moves... yikes. That said, this 4MSS actually gives Bannette some great versatility. Outside of Taunt and D-Bond, you can just pick the two moves that your team needs the most out of the remaining seven. Bannette is a great spinblocker on Sticky Web teams, and it can even stop Defog in a pinch should you predict the switch-in. All in all, Bannette is quite the useful Pokemon, and I think it has enough going for it to be A rank.
Zangoose: Much like Molk, I used Zangoose a lot in BW2 and have also used it a little in XY. The Knock Off buff makes goose even harder to deal with since Ghost-types are getting blasted. Outside of this, Molk covered everything I would have said on this one, so I'll just cut to the chase and agree with the move to B+
Gallade: Agree with everything that CyclicCompound said about it. Gallade is a fantastic Pokemon that can work on nearly every team. HO, Sticky Web, bulky offense, balance, hell even stall. You need a Fighting-type, there's probably a Gallade set that works for your team. It has extreme versatility and is nearly impossible to figure out until it makes a move... which can often be too late to stop it. While most sets were already covered, there is the fact Medicham left the tier. Why is this important you ask? Simple. Before Medicham left, there was simply no reason to run Choice Scarf Gallade since Medicham was better in every way due to Pure Power. However, with Medicham gone, that's just one more option Gallade picks up. Sure, Scarf isn't the best set it can use, and it probably never will be, but the simple fact you have to keep that possibility in the back of your mind when you're facing it is enough to give yourself headaches. I definitely agree with the move to A rank for Gallade.
Swellow: Digging way back here because I didn't cover it in my last post. I definitely think Swellow needs to be moved down to C+/C. On top of not being able to deal with Rocks or Steels very well (most of which are pretty damn bulky) we also just got Jolteon, an Electric-type that naturally outspeeds Swellow. This makes it very difficult to sweep late-game with Swellow as the opponent will likely save Jolteon for the end (assuming he/she has one of course) to protect against Swellow sweeping. There's also the fact that Jolteon could be paired with a Scarf user, or even a Steel- or Rock-type itself. Inability to beat Rocks and Steels, Jolteon naturally outspeeding it, and the vast majority of Scarfers being able to lay waste to Swellow's pathetic defenses all make it very hard to use. I think C+ would be ok for it as the Specs set at least lets it do something to Rock-types, but it's still getting dumped by Jolteon and Scarfers.
Braviary: Another I missed a while ago, but with the introduction of Jolteon, the Scarf set takes a major hit. Scarf Braviary is now forced to run Jolly, or be outsped by Jolteon, even after the Scarf boost. Much of the boost from using Scarf Braviary is the ability to clean up much faster than most other Scarf users through the use of an Adamant nature and not really missing out on anything. However, this has changed with Jolteon, a Pokemon that not only outspeeds Adamant Scarf Braviary, but also OHKOes it with STAB T-Bolt / Volt Switch. Now, Braviary does have other sets it can run. Choice Band Braviary is damn hard to face down, especially on Sticky Web teams as it discourages the use of Defog by being able to, at worst, 2HKO the entire tier with the right move. For those not wanting to go the Choice item route, there's SubBU, which is fairly useful on more balanced teams in need of a less reckless way to use Braviary. And there's a simple Life Orb set w/Roost, which is probably the best set to abuse Defiant with since it can switch moves and still has insane power at +2. So, where does that leave Braviary? Through all of this, I think its versaitlity, undeniable niche as the best Defiant user in the tier, and the ability to pick apart much of the metagame with STABs + Superpower alone make it good enough for B+, even though it has gained a new check in Jolteon.
Drapion: This is an interesting one. Drapion. It is one of few Dark-types that actually doesn't mind the introduction of Fairy-types thanks to its secondary Poison STAB. Knock Off is huge for this thing as it now has a reliable STAB move to use in almost any situation. The only Pokemon in RU that are immune to Knock Off's boosted hit are Mega-Bannette (weak to Dark, so bye-bye) and Mega-Abomasnow (weak to Poison) so it's a really safe move to use unless the opponent has Coablion (Virizion can't OHKO at +1 and goes down to Poison Jab) Taunt+SD is probably Drapion's best set, and it's great for breaking down shit like Reuniclus, Cresselia, Cofagirgus, and most Pokemon on Stall teams. Drapion can also run an effective SpDef set thanks to its odd, but very useful Poison / Dark typing. Drapion's problems lie in its lack of reliable recovery (can be fixed with Wish support from Aroma or Mola) and the fact that it needs to boost up to do serious damage. I'm really torn on this one as it struggles with 2 of the S rank Pokemon, Delphox and Rhyperior, but is also arguably the most versatile Dark-type in terms of both offense and defense. I feel it has just enough going for it to move up to A- though.
Bannette (Mega) - Totally on board with this move. Bannette is a great offensive utility Pokemon. Sure, it has to get its Mega Evolution in before it can do much of anything, but once it gets past that, you have one of the best offensive utility Pokemon in the tier. Bannette's main issues lie in getting its Mega Evolution activated, and 4MSS. Sub, Sucker Punch, Knock Off, Wisp, Pain Split, D-Bond, Taunt, Shadow Claw, and Shadow Sneak. All are perfectly viable move on Bannette, but you only have four moveslots. Taunt and D-Bond are absolute musts imo, so you only have two slots left for seven moves... yikes. That said, this 4MSS actually gives Bannette some great versatility. Outside of Taunt and D-Bond, you can just pick the two moves that your team needs the most out of the remaining seven. Bannette is a great spinblocker on Sticky Web teams, and it can even stop Defog in a pinch should you predict the switch-in. All in all, Bannette is quite the useful Pokemon, and I think it has enough going for it to be A rank.
Zangoose: Much like Molk, I used Zangoose a lot in BW2 and have also used it a little in XY. The Knock Off buff makes goose even harder to deal with since Ghost-types are getting blasted. Outside of this, Molk covered everything I would have said on this one, so I'll just cut to the chase and agree with the move to B+
Gallade: Agree with everything that CyclicCompound said about it. Gallade is a fantastic Pokemon that can work on nearly every team. HO, Sticky Web, bulky offense, balance, hell even stall. You need a Fighting-type, there's probably a Gallade set that works for your team. It has extreme versatility and is nearly impossible to figure out until it makes a move... which can often be too late to stop it. While most sets were already covered, there is the fact Medicham left the tier. Why is this important you ask? Simple. Before Medicham left, there was simply no reason to run Choice Scarf Gallade since Medicham was better in every way due to Pure Power. However, with Medicham gone, that's just one more option Gallade picks up. Sure, Scarf isn't the best set it can use, and it probably never will be, but the simple fact you have to keep that possibility in the back of your mind when you're facing it is enough to give yourself headaches. I definitely agree with the move to A rank for Gallade.
Jacks0n
formerly grassycow
I think jolteon will find itself in A-. It has fantastic speed outspeeding all the non boosted tier aswell as great special attack and a spammable stab. Jolteon struggles with coveredge but volt switch/tbolt/hp ice and shadow ball is all it really needs to function well. I have just loved the speed it has brought to the team and it easily revenge kills most of the offencive meta including durant, hitmonlee, virizion, coballion, moltres, SCEPTILE, drapion mismagius ect. I think jolteon joining the tier will cause helio to drop just because jolteon has the best speed in the tier and somewhat outlcasses helio, I could see helio dropping to B or B+.
Also, Im not sure why this hasn't happened yet but I'd like to nominate vivillon for A-. With a pretty reliable sleep inducer in compound eyes sleep powder, vivillon can set up quiver dances and sweep with ease with its compound eyes hurricane. Vivillon is pretty much impossible to stop late game once its checks are gone. A great pokemon and even better now that it is no longer outclassed by venomoth. It can also run specs set or even scarf sets reliabely and is definately an A- poke.
Also I can't see braviary moving up now with the introduction of jolteon to the tier. The fact that jolteon outspeeds unless it runs jolly really saps at its power. Still a good poke but the fact that it has a new fast, threatening check in jolteon which will probably see a lot of usage will hold it back from moving to B+
Also, Im not sure why this hasn't happened yet but I'd like to nominate vivillon for A-. With a pretty reliable sleep inducer in compound eyes sleep powder, vivillon can set up quiver dances and sweep with ease with its compound eyes hurricane. Vivillon is pretty much impossible to stop late game once its checks are gone. A great pokemon and even better now that it is no longer outclassed by venomoth. It can also run specs set or even scarf sets reliabely and is definately an A- poke.
Also I can't see braviary moving up now with the introduction of jolteon to the tier. The fact that jolteon outspeeds unless it runs jolly really saps at its power. Still a good poke but the fact that it has a new fast, threatening check in jolteon which will probably see a lot of usage will hold it back from moving to B+
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Yeah this thing should drop to C+ rank. It has a lot of power and its high speed and Flying type make it a cool answer to Sticky Web teams and fast Pokemon in general but the presence of strong priority from Hitmonlee and Zoroark and the fact it needs a turn to activate Guts (or drop Quick Attack, thus becoming vulnerable to Sucker Punch) make it a mediocre choice in that regard. The presence of Rhyperior in the tier is also a major thorn in its side as not only it switches in for free but it has an opportunity to get up its Stealth Rock and rack up residual damage that will eventually result in a dead Swellow. The Specs set solves some of this problems as it has greater longevity and can deal with some counters like Rhyperior (it is an amazing lure capable of 2HKOing it with an Hidden Power Grass) but lacks overall power and is kinda forced to run a Modest nature becoming prone to stuff like Cinccino and Scarf Emboar. As EonX- said it now faces a lot of competition from Jolteon as a fast revenge killer and Scout and Jolteon itself is a threat to our Gen 3 burd.
Other users have made good points about it going to B+ and i agree with this as it is really amazing in Sticky Web teams as it flat out destroys most offensive mons with Facade and priority users take a ton from Quick Attack. With Hazard Support it is particularly deadly but Froslass and Shuckle are in the tier so... yeah good B+ mon
Not really sure about this. Gallade has a lot of unpredictability and power and its Sub+3 Attacks and Offensive Swords Dance (and Bulk Up) sets are really threatening to Offensive and Defensive teams respectively but honestly i've missed Hitmonlee's raw power and Rapid Spin capabilities to the ability to get past Amoonguss and Aromatisse with greater ease. I'd try it more and expand my thoughts but as of now i think it can stay in A Rank
phantom
Banned deucer.
Yeah, I don't really see any reason for Gallade to move out of A-. I get that it's versatile, but all of its sets are so-so from my experience. Its never been something that's explicitly won or lost me a match nor has it been something that's influenced my team building in the least bit. It's easy to prepare for just by default and none of its sets have extraordinary utility imo. The only thing that even keeps it in A- is the fact that it can run a handful of sets with good coverage options, but once that's figured out, it doesn't take much effort to deal with it. I also don't get how Gallade fits on every team... I mean, if you're using Sticky Web, there are tons of better nukes out there, and Gallade on stall sounds kind of silly to me to say the least... Gallade should stay in A-, that's a pretty generous rank for it imo. Overall, I just don't see how it's on the same level as Pokemon as influential as Alomomola and Yanmega, it just doesn't seem right.
I'll throw in my support for Gallade for A. I've used a sub bulkup wet with Drain Punch and Knock Off and it's a damn threat. It works best on a balance team imo as it can easily switch-in due to it's surprisingly good 68/65/115 Special bulk. Subbing in on a wall or weak special attacker, setting up a sub to ease prediction, and either drain punching to get more health back to make up for the sub (in addition to Lefties) or using Knock Off to get rid of an opponent's item. Justified also has a lot of utility for subbing in on Knock Off, as Gallade doesn't really mind losing lefties since it has Drain Punch.
This set has absolutely won me games, with Hp and Sp Def investment you can take hits and bide your time to get a good bulk-up or two in, so that your opponent has a hard time breaking your sub. Once they can't break it in one hit (not that hard with a boost or two), it's off to the races.
Gallade's other sets (Sub + 3 attacks, SD) are threatening as well, but imo it's the sub BU set that sets Gallade apart and makes it deserving of solid A
This set has absolutely won me games, with Hp and Sp Def investment you can take hits and bide your time to get a good bulk-up or two in, so that your opponent has a hard time breaking your sub. Once they can't break it in one hit (not that hard with a boost or two), it's off to the races.
Gallade's other sets (Sub + 3 attacks, SD) are threatening as well, but imo it's the sub BU set that sets Gallade apart and makes it deserving of solid A
I'm outraged to see Fletchinder in C+ rank, but I will do nothing about it.
Why is Gourgeist-S lower than Gourgeist-H?
Just wanna point out that like 90% of the suggestions being posted are to move stuff up which will result in our rankings being just as inflated. Let's try a little pessimism every once in a while.
These garbage Pokemon are too high and should move down: Sceptile, Dugtrio, Bronzong
These trash Pokemon are at least as high as they should be so don't move them up: Virizion, Banette, Drapion, Slurpuff, Eelektross
Reasoning: to be provided in a future post by complete legitimacy.
I'm gonna have to agree with Honko about Dugtrio and Bronzong (not enough experience with sceptile to really comment here). Both Pokemon are ranked a bit too high and i'd prefer them to move down a little bit, here's why.
Dugtrio: Ok, this thing has an obvious niche as a trapper that keeps it viable for sure, but i just feel like Dugtrio is too flawed to be in as high of a rank as B+, especially in this metagame. Of course it might be fast, but it's really, really piss weak, anything with any kind of bulk at all won't be too threatened by Dugtrio, and because of this it can't really successfully trap as much as it might like. Especially consider that one of the things Dugtrio is paired with often is birds, but the best bird counter (Rhyperior) doesnt even care about Dugtrio's EQ anyway, you're definitely not getting past something that bulky even if it's weak to Earthquake. Dugtrio is also EXTREMELY frail, without a Focus Sash or a sash broken by hazards any decently powered attack is going to be OHKOing it, even resisted moves will probably do 60%+, which once again really limits what Dugtrio can successfully trap. Combine this with the fact that some important Pokemon can't be trapped anyway (Doublade, Froslass), and that the tier's main Electric-type actually outspeeds it and can 2HKO with any non Electric-type move on the switch (Jolteon), and Dugtrio kinda struggles imo. Of course it still has a cool niche of trapping say Registeel for Yanmega, but otherwise i just don't think Dugtrio is good enough at its job to warrant B+, B or B- would probably fit better.
Bronzong: I honestly find this thing a bit underwhelming for a variety of reasons, and once again i think its current rank is a bit too high for it. Bronzong seems pretty good in theory, and in some ways it really is, but i think that Bronzong's flaws can hold it back quite a bit. Before XY, Bronzong's main draw was the fact that it only had a 2x weakness to Fire-type moves thanks to its typing and levitate, but this generation's steel nerf really really hurt it. Now Bronzong has two more weaknesses to Dark- and Ghost-type moves, most notably Shadow Ball and Knock Off, the latter of which is exceedingly common on pretty much anything that gets it and removes Bronzong's only means of recovery as well. Aside from this, Bronzong recieves quite a bit of competition from Registeel, whos significantly bulkier and can take on big threats such as Yanmega better for stall teams. Of course Bronzong's strong(er, its still kinda weak). Gyro Ball and Levitate ability give it a niche over Registeel, but honestly unless i really absolutely needed an immunity to Ground-type moves in that teamslot i'd heavily consider Registeel before zonger, maybe that's just me though. I'd probably move it down to say B-
EDIT: Also looking at the current list i have something else to bring up
I'd like Spiritomb to be moved up a subrank or two tbh, and i really feel like a flat C rank is too low for it. Spiritomb might not be as prevelant as it was last generation, but looking at the threats in the higher ranks it actually matches up well against some of the most threatening ones. In particular, Hitmonlee, Reuniclus, Gallade, and Meloetta really hate fighting this thing because of its unique typing, which grants it an immunity to Psychic-type moves while being neutral at worst to their most common coverage moves, as well as being the only Ghost-type Pokemon available in RU that isn't weak to the Knock Offs that common Normal and Fighting-type pokemon will be throwing around. Beating Reuniclus in particular is especially notable, simply because of how easily Calm Mind Reuniclus can set up a win condition otherwise (note: use Calm Mind of your own if you want to do this reliably). Speaking of win conditions, i find Calm Mind Spiritomb to be a pretty solid win condition of its own on more defensive teams, especially now that Dark Pulse is no longer resisted by the various Steel-types out there. All in all Spiritomb is still a pretty cool Pokemon imo, and while it might not be the best out there, it's certainly not *bad*, and the fact that it can mess with so many common Pokemon makes me think it could warrant a little bump out to around the C+/B- range.
hope that made sense ;-;
Dugtrio: Ok, this thing has an obvious niche as a trapper that keeps it viable for sure, but i just feel like Dugtrio is too flawed to be in as high of a rank as B+, especially in this metagame. Of course it might be fast, but it's really, really piss weak, anything with any kind of bulk at all won't be too threatened by Dugtrio, and because of this it can't really successfully trap as much as it might like. Especially consider that one of the things Dugtrio is paired with often is birds, but the best bird counter (Rhyperior) doesnt even care about Dugtrio's EQ anyway, you're definitely not getting past something that bulky even if it's weak to Earthquake. Dugtrio is also EXTREMELY frail, without a Focus Sash or a sash broken by hazards any decently powered attack is going to be OHKOing it, even resisted moves will probably do 60%+, which once again really limits what Dugtrio can successfully trap. Combine this with the fact that some important Pokemon can't be trapped anyway (Doublade, Froslass), and that the tier's main Electric-type actually outspeeds it and can 2HKO with any non Electric-type move on the switch (Jolteon), and Dugtrio kinda struggles imo. Of course it still has a cool niche of trapping say Registeel for Yanmega, but otherwise i just don't think Dugtrio is good enough at its job to warrant B+, B or B- would probably fit better.
Bronzong: I honestly find this thing a bit underwhelming for a variety of reasons, and once again i think its current rank is a bit too high for it. Bronzong seems pretty good in theory, and in some ways it really is, but i think that Bronzong's flaws can hold it back quite a bit. Before XY, Bronzong's main draw was the fact that it only had a 2x weakness to Fire-type moves thanks to its typing and levitate, but this generation's steel nerf really really hurt it. Now Bronzong has two more weaknesses to Dark- and Ghost-type moves, most notably Shadow Ball and Knock Off, the latter of which is exceedingly common on pretty much anything that gets it and removes Bronzong's only means of recovery as well. Aside from this, Bronzong recieves quite a bit of competition from Registeel, whos significantly bulkier and can take on big threats such as Yanmega better for stall teams. Of course Bronzong's strong(er, its still kinda weak). Gyro Ball and Levitate ability give it a niche over Registeel, but honestly unless i really absolutely needed an immunity to Ground-type moves in that teamslot i'd heavily consider Registeel before zonger, maybe that's just me though. I'd probably move it down to say B-
EDIT: Also looking at the current list i have something else to bring up
I'd like Spiritomb to be moved up a subrank or two tbh, and i really feel like a flat C rank is too low for it. Spiritomb might not be as prevelant as it was last generation, but looking at the threats in the higher ranks it actually matches up well against some of the most threatening ones. In particular, Hitmonlee, Reuniclus, Gallade, and Meloetta really hate fighting this thing because of its unique typing, which grants it an immunity to Psychic-type moves while being neutral at worst to their most common coverage moves, as well as being the only Ghost-type Pokemon available in RU that isn't weak to the Knock Offs that common Normal and Fighting-type pokemon will be throwing around. Beating Reuniclus in particular is especially notable, simply because of how easily Calm Mind Reuniclus can set up a win condition otherwise (note: use Calm Mind of your own if you want to do this reliably). Speaking of win conditions, i find Calm Mind Spiritomb to be a pretty solid win condition of its own on more defensive teams, especially now that Dark Pulse is no longer resisted by the various Steel-types out there. All in all Spiritomb is still a pretty cool Pokemon imo, and while it might not be the best out there, it's certainly not *bad*, and the fact that it can mess with so many common Pokemon makes me think it could warrant a little bump out to around the C+/B- range.
hope that made sense ;-;
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I actually still believe that Drapion deserves to be moved up to A-. It can easily fight a lot the higher ranked threats and is pretty versatile. Outside of Froslass he is probably the best taunt user meaning he can shut down a lot of pokemon that try to setup or stall Drapion out. He has decent enough defensive stats and has a great defensive typing that makes him only weak to ground (Yes, I know ground is common but this being his only weakness also means he can live almost all other hits). STAB Knock Off is also insanely useful. Dealing heavy damage while removing an item is one of Drapion's best abilities. Speaking of abilities, this seems to be the only significant downside to him since there aren't any really useful ones.
Drapion is very versatile and is a lot of his sets are very effective. I wonder why so few people are running him.
Drapion is very versatile and is a lot of his sets are very effective. I wonder why so few people are running him.
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I thought I was the only one who used the Sub/Bulk Up set. I don't really have much to add, since this post pretty much describes why this Gallade set it so good, but it can easily tear holes in teams and force rage quits, and I've 6-0'd quite a few people with it. I like to lead with it, since hazard setters give it at least one free boost.
Alright, cause DTC is ded and llamas is lazy i'm gonna be personally doing the updates for this round! there were a lot of proposals because of the longer than usual wait time so are gonna be quite a few changes this round, if you strongly disagree with any of the moves made just say so.
whatever i missed here will probably have a conclusion reached involving them by the rank update, i'll also be sure to give Jolteon a ranking by the next update (should be in A/A- imo but that's just me).
C+ looks pretty inflated atm but that could simply be fixed by moving really good mons up and bad ones down in the next update.
Also, i'd like to throw in a good word for Doublade and say that after testing it quite a bit more in the current metagame i think it could warrant a move up to A/A-. Of course those flaws such as poor special bulk and speed (relies on Shadow Sneak a bit) still exist, but Doublade is a very good Pokemon in the current metagame and i definitely think these flaws are more than made up by Doublade's various positive traits. First off, as everyone knows Doublade's physical bulk is absolutely ridiculous (not to mention that typing lol), and it really isn't an exaggeration to say it gives pretty much any physical attacker without STAB EQ/Flare Blitz/Knock Off a hard time 1v1 (its physical bulk actually matches mega aggron's iirc). Even after being Knocked Off, 252/0 Doublade is still slightly bulkier than a Cofagrigus with the same ev spread, and anyone who played BW1 RU knows just how bulky even 252/0 cofagrigus was. This simultaneously makes it an excellent utility counter on offense/bulky offense and an incredibly easy to set up Swords Dance sweeper. In particular, Doublade just sets up all over top threats including Cobalion, Virizion, Aromatisse, Sceptile lacking Hidden Power Fire, Outrage locked Druddigon, Hitmonlee to an extent, Registeel, Durant, and more! Aside from simply being a utility Pokemon and sort of "holding offensive teams together" with its incredible bulk and slew of resistances, Doublade makes to be one of the best offensive spinblockers in the tier, being able to take hits from most of the common Rapid Spinners and having an offensive presence of its own, letting it easily turn the tables on opponents who attempt to clear hazards. Overall just a really excellent Pokemon in this metagame imo, and i think what i listed above is certainly enough to justify a move up to somewhere around A-/A
Togetic down to C+ rank
Slowking up to A rank
Mega Banette up to A rank
Samurott up to C+ Rank
Bronzong down to B- rank
Mega Abomasnow up to A- rank
Miltank up to C+ rank
Eelektross to C+ rank
Swellow down to C+ rank
Braviary up to B+ rank
Magneton up to B+ rank
Zangoose up to B+ rank
Dugtrio down to B rank
Spiritomb up to C+ rank
Slowking up to A rank
Mega Banette up to A rank
Samurott up to C+ Rank
Bronzong down to B- rank
Mega Abomasnow up to A- rank
Miltank up to C+ rank
Eelektross to C+ rank
Swellow down to C+ rank
Braviary up to B+ rank
Magneton up to B+ rank
Zangoose up to B+ rank
Dugtrio down to B rank
Spiritomb up to C+ rank
whatever i missed here will probably have a conclusion reached involving them by the rank update, i'll also be sure to give Jolteon a ranking by the next update (should be in A/A- imo but that's just me).
C+ looks pretty inflated atm but that could simply be fixed by moving really good mons up and bad ones down in the next update.
Also, i'd like to throw in a good word for Doublade and say that after testing it quite a bit more in the current metagame i think it could warrant a move up to A/A-. Of course those flaws such as poor special bulk and speed (relies on Shadow Sneak a bit) still exist, but Doublade is a very good Pokemon in the current metagame and i definitely think these flaws are more than made up by Doublade's various positive traits. First off, as everyone knows Doublade's physical bulk is absolutely ridiculous (not to mention that typing lol), and it really isn't an exaggeration to say it gives pretty much any physical attacker without STAB EQ/Flare Blitz/Knock Off a hard time 1v1 (its physical bulk actually matches mega aggron's iirc). Even after being Knocked Off, 252/0 Doublade is still slightly bulkier than a Cofagrigus with the same ev spread, and anyone who played BW1 RU knows just how bulky even 252/0 cofagrigus was. This simultaneously makes it an excellent utility counter on offense/bulky offense and an incredibly easy to set up Swords Dance sweeper. In particular, Doublade just sets up all over top threats including Cobalion, Virizion, Aromatisse, Sceptile lacking Hidden Power Fire, Outrage locked Druddigon, Hitmonlee to an extent, Registeel, Durant, and more! Aside from simply being a utility Pokemon and sort of "holding offensive teams together" with its incredible bulk and slew of resistances, Doublade makes to be one of the best offensive spinblockers in the tier, being able to take hits from most of the common Rapid Spinners and having an offensive presence of its own, letting it easily turn the tables on opponents who attempt to clear hazards. Overall just a really excellent Pokemon in this metagame imo, and i think what i listed above is certainly enough to justify a move up to somewhere around A-/A
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To fix the C+ inflation:
Shiftry to B-
Shiftry is a really good HO defogger that unlike a lot of other defoggers doesn't completely kill all offensive momentum. Still has the flaw of just folding to Defiant Braviary but it can work around that since it actually fucking damages things unlike other defoggers.
Xatu to B-
Molk of all people should know the power. Can go bulky to prevent hazards and be a major cockblock to stall, or can go all out offensive (see the RU CCAT). Between sheer utility and versatility it deserves a move up.
Seismitoad to C
Actually nevermind I really can't justify this on second thought
Poliwrath to C
Poliwrath is just underwhelming. In a tier with an absolute plethora of good fighting types (Hitmons(not chan obv), Musketeers, etc.)it just struggles to shine. All it really has going for it is the Bulk Up + Circle Throw set and that's relatively easy to take down.
Skuntank to B-
Really underrated defogger. Great defensive typing with a sole weakness which isn't insanely common as STAB, allowing Skuntank to defog with ease. Faces stiff competition from the Eviolite Defoggers but it has its perks
Miltank to B-
Miltank is a Pokemon that SHOULDN'T be good, but it is. Great rocks lead, as it literally fears nothing not named Reckless Hitmonlee. Can cripple sweepers that would want to switch in with Twave as well.
Fletchinder back to B-
Fletchinder can cause a lot of the tier's common flying weak pokes some serious trouble. Hitmonlee, Virizion, Sharpedo, and Gallade are all great examples of what Fletchinder can easily force out. I really don't see why it dropped tbh
Shiftry to B-
Shiftry is a really good HO defogger that unlike a lot of other defoggers doesn't completely kill all offensive momentum. Still has the flaw of just folding to Defiant Braviary but it can work around that since it actually fucking damages things unlike other defoggers.
Xatu to B-
Molk of all people should know the power. Can go bulky to prevent hazards and be a major cockblock to stall, or can go all out offensive (see the RU CCAT). Between sheer utility and versatility it deserves a move up.
Actually nevermind I really can't justify this on second thought
Poliwrath to C
Poliwrath is just underwhelming. In a tier with an absolute plethora of good fighting types (Hitmons(not chan obv), Musketeers, etc.)it just struggles to shine. All it really has going for it is the Bulk Up + Circle Throw set and that's relatively easy to take down.
Skuntank to B-
Really underrated defogger. Great defensive typing with a sole weakness which isn't insanely common as STAB, allowing Skuntank to defog with ease. Faces stiff competition from the Eviolite Defoggers but it has its perks
Miltank to B-
Miltank is a Pokemon that SHOULDN'T be good, but it is. Great rocks lead, as it literally fears nothing not named Reckless Hitmonlee. Can cripple sweepers that would want to switch in with Twave as well.
Fletchinder back to B-
Fletchinder can cause a lot of the tier's common flying weak pokes some serious trouble. Hitmonlee, Virizion, Sharpedo, and Gallade are all great examples of what Fletchinder can easily force out. I really don't see why it dropped tbh
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Galladium
Banned deucer.
Gallade to stay in A-
Whilst Gallade can tear teams apart with it's base 125 attack and has sufficient Special bulk, it's lackluster Defense and HP stats force it to run either Bulk Up or at least invest in Defense EV's, to avoid dying to neutral Physical attacks. Although it has Justified, Gallade's Psychic typing makes it neutral to Dark attacks, so switching in on Knock Off is not recommended unless you've sufficiently invested in Defense/HP EV's. Uninvested Gallade doesn't even stand a chance, being OHKO'd by Life Orb Hitmonlee's Knock Off, and losing a huge chunk of health from non-banded Escavalier.
The second problem with Gallade is it's good, but not great base 80 Speed, which allows revenge killers such as Durant and Braviary (and possibly even Fletchlinder), to outspeed and KO with their respective choice of STAB. Even Specs Jolteon 2HKO's with a super effective Shadow Ball.
Being unpredictable, versatile and powerful, overall Gallade is a great Pokemon, but the flaws outlined above prevent it, in my opinion, from being A rank. Gallade in A- rank seems about right.
Whilst Gallade can tear teams apart with it's base 125 attack and has sufficient Special bulk, it's lackluster Defense and HP stats force it to run either Bulk Up or at least invest in Defense EV's, to avoid dying to neutral Physical attacks. Although it has Justified, Gallade's Psychic typing makes it neutral to Dark attacks, so switching in on Knock Off is not recommended unless you've sufficiently invested in Defense/HP EV's. Uninvested Gallade doesn't even stand a chance, being OHKO'd by Life Orb Hitmonlee's Knock Off, and losing a huge chunk of health from non-banded Escavalier.
The second problem with Gallade is it's good, but not great base 80 Speed, which allows revenge killers such as Durant and Braviary (and possibly even Fletchlinder), to outspeed and KO with their respective choice of STAB. Even Specs Jolteon 2HKO's with a super effective Shadow Ball.
Being unpredictable, versatile and powerful, overall Gallade is a great Pokemon, but the flaws outlined above prevent it, in my opinion, from being A rank. Gallade in A- rank seems about right.
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Jacks0n
formerly grassycow
K, another round, here we go...
Braviary for B First Of all I really disagree with Braviary moving to B+. Braviary is good, but has it's flaws and now that jolteon entered the tier it's having a rough time. It has to run jolly when scarfed to outspeed jolteon which really saps at its power and doesn't allow it to really go against bulky mons. People use it as a defiant abuser but it cant even KO a max defence gligar unless it runs adamant band. Common pokemon like doublade stops it and its best sets, choiced really make it somewhat lacking in aspects that it can't switch around it's moves. A good pokemon and couldv'e moved up if jolteon didn't move down, but now that it did its B rank IMO.
Shiftry for B- Shiftry is actually such a good defogger for HO. Forcing a lot of switches with its powerful stabs which threaten a lot of pokemon it nabs free chances to defog. Outside of defogging it is still a powerhouse. With good attack and special attack, powerful stabs in sucker punch, knock off and leaf storm this thing can KO a lot of defencive and offencive pokemon. Aswell as just being an awesome defogger for offence, it can run a sword dance set aswell adding to its veratility. Shiftry is held back by its typing defencively and its subpar speed. (Also people said this thing is complete bait for braviary, but if braviary is weakened - 252 Atk Life Orb Shiftry Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Braviary: 181-214 (53 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)
Doublade for A- As an extensive user of doublade I can really support this movement. Doublade is actually a superb pokemon in the current RU meta, with awesome resistances, great bulk with eviolite and good attack this thing is a great asset to a lot of teams. Doublade is a great pokemon in that it checks virizion, durant, coballion, choice locked druddigon and bulky psychics such as cresellia and reun. This thing just finds a lot of opportunities to set up a sword dance and is so valuable for many teams because it checks top tier threats, has good bulk and great attack.
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