I know that mega manectric and Raikou do that but Mega manectric takes up a mega slot also neither manectric Raikou nor thundurus have as much coverage as Heliolisk. Even though they may have other abilities none of them have an extremely useful water immunity or nifty ghost immunity so if your team has a water weakness, Heliolisk is the way to go. In addition, specs raikou's aura sphere is weaker than specs heliolisks focus blast. Heliolisk has the option to run volt switch , focus blast , surf hp ice , dark pulse , or grass knot. Neither manectric Raikou or thundurus have as much type coverage as he does.
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)
- Thread starter alexwolf
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Please just stop. I'm going to say this in the nicest way possible: Heliolisk is not a viable Pokemon in OU and you're not going to convince anyone like that.
Mega Manectric takes up a mega slot, but it can play Lightningrod>Intinimdate better than expected. They don't have a Water immunity because that's useless. Almost every Water type has a potent secondary STAB besides stuff like Manaphy. If you have a Water weakness, Heliolisk is not the best way to go, because it will just die to another move when another resist can add to defensive synergy better than a Normal/Electric type. Being immune to Ghost is nice, until you get outsped and die to a Gengar anyway. Focus Blast is not a reliable move, Surf is a mediocre at best coverage move without STAB, and what does Dark Pulse do? It scores the KO on Gengar but that's a wasted slot otherwise. Grass Knot is a joke too. What are you hitting? Gastrodon? It lives one anyway and can poison you then switch out. Hidden Power isn't a factor as everything gets it. Raikou has Extrasensory (relevant, hits Venusaur) as well as a powerful Aura Sphere, even Extreme Speed if you want to be that guy. Thundurus has a ton of utility, being Prankster and, along with raikou, sweeping potential. Heliolisk is simply not viable.
First of all Choice specs is really Heliolisks best and only viable set. Also Raikou nowhere near outclasses Heliolisk as Raikou has far worse abilities and doesn't even hit much harder than Heliolisk not to mention Heliolisk has a better movepool and better coverage. In fact specs Heliolisk focus blast is stronger than specs Raikou aura sphere. Heliolisk can also run grass knot with HP ice while Raikou has to choose one or the other. Heliolisk even has surf and dark pulse. Also Azumarill is never going to even touch Heliolisk because Heliolisk will volt switch and switch out before azumarill can even hit him. Thunderbolt is not a viable option on Heliolisk because then Heliolisk loses out on coverage. In addition, just because Heliolisk has thin defenses does not mean he is bad. He is a hit and run attacker just like manectric who isn't suppose to tank hits. Dry skin also gives Heliolisk a water immunity that Raikou wishes he had not to mention the normal typing that gives Heliolisk a ghost immunity that Raikou also does not have. I can see the argument in Mega manectric, though due to water immunity I wouldn't go as far as to say manectric 100% outclasses Heliolisk. Raikou however, nowhere near outclasses Heliolisk.
Grass knot is for the ever prevalent Quagsire which completely walls Raikou with no hp grass. Also almost every water type outside things like greninja are outsped by Heliolisk and will take a fearsome specs volt switch and won't be able to touch him with their secondary stab which you will then switch into something else to get a favorable match up. This is something NO other electric type can do except lanturn who is not nearly as powerful or fast( the ability to take a water move )Thundurus has a lot of utility as you said and therefore doesn't serve the same role as Heliolisk who is an all out choice specs special attacker. Thundurus also does not outclass Heliolisk because he is a prankster abuser and doesn't use choice specs which means Heliolisk hits harder and has more coverage but doesn't have the utility of thundurus. Also a specs focus blast can OHKO tyranitar while a Raikou specs aura sphere 2hkoes which means he loses to tyranitar. It's better to have a 70% chance to beat tyranitar than a 0% chance.
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Ever prevelant? The thing is barely OU. You can't make random points about Heliolisk saying it's good when Raikou and Thundurus do the same thing better. Also lol this part:
Yeah all of them can. Ever hear of having actual bulk and being able to live a hit? Heliolisk hasn't.
wat
Thundurus can use Specs, it therefore outclasses Heliolisk. Surf doesn't matter.
It doesn't OHKO.
I know the % that EQ does to Tran, no need to bring it up. Stone Edge and Ancient Power are actually quite viable in average-high level matches due to the ability to hit both Talonflame and ZardY, who you can comfortably wall. The thing is that ZardY has an extreme case of 4mss, if it runs EQ, it can do something to Tran, but loses to others because it has to give up a different coverage move.
Physical ZardY is really sub-par. You run Flare Blitz to beat Chansey, but you die to recoil in the process, not to mention that Chansey can Softboil stall your precious HP.
Long story short, ZardY is pretty outclassed by top tier wallbreakers like Lando-I and Specs Keld, who have superior coverage (well Keldeo doesn't really but Secret Sword is an amazing peice of utility), are not SR weak, have bery few concrete counters, and have superior speed tiers to beat the crowded as fuck base 100 club. I'm not and no one else, including Karxrida, actually want it to drop to the depths of C, its still pretty good, but A+ is overselling. IMO A or A- is the place to be.
Both Megaman and Raikou by far outclass Helio, they have superior offensive stats, speed and arguably movepool (Congrats, it learns Surf). Did you seriously just say that a move of 1.5x the strength of a second move hits harder? No way! Thing is, accuracy exists and relying on a move that'll miss at the best of times isn't a good thing. If you can't switch in, how are you supposed to beat stuff that you check. I know revenge killing exists but a general rule of thumb is that losing a mon is bad, Manectric has decent defenses as well as intimidate, Raikou has good defenses which means that they can still take resisted hits well and hence switch in. Just saying that two Pokemon have slight differences does not mean that one is not outclassed by the other. Also that replay you showed was not anything special. All it did was wall a less effective set of Manaphy, not to mention the opponent had no idea what Helio did and misplayed a bunch (he said so himself). Heliolisk is close to nonviable in this meta.
and just to make sure you don't argue that Raikou doesn't outclass Helio with his "superior movepool" and "Stronk Focus Blasts" Raikou learns Extrasensory, which means it beats Venu, something the pitiful lizard cannot hope to do.
tl;dr: Helio has no notable niche over Megaman and Raikou, it has piss-weak defenses, a inferior speed tier and has power issues.
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252 SpA Choice Specs Heliolisk Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 460-544 (113.8 - 134.6%) -- guaranteed OHKORotomPoison said:
So it does OHKO technically (assuming Focus Miss hits). However,
252 Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heliolisk: 226-267 (84.9 - 100.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKOCinco Swift said:
252 Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heliolisk: 226-267 (84.9 - 100.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heliolisk: 282-333 (106 - 125.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heliolisk: 376-444 (141.3 - 166.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
In other words, Heliosk can only come in on Crunch and stray coverage moves, and even Crunch will likely kill it if rocks are up. This isn't even an Adamant TTar either. While I'm all for the use of obscure Pokemon, at the end of the day this is one that has already had its OU analysis rejected, which in the Ubers viability list would make it a blacklisted mon (I know this isn't Ubers and I know that OU has its own rules, but I like the precedent). You can argue that it works for your team, but for the average player there's nothing Heliosk brings that the other Electric mons mentioned bring other than water immunity and other coverage moves, which in most situations will not compensate his glass defenses (especially in this physical-oriented meta) and his lower speed.
Id go along the fact that heliolisk may not be preferred among other electric types simply because its combination of frailty and questionable typing, not so much about abilities, movepool, etc. Yes extrasensory may be a good thing to damage Mega-venu, but grass knot, surf, dark pulse, and to some extent focus blast is much more important to hit other targets that check a bunch of electrics (which is quite a lot mind you).
Having dry skin is actually really good, because having an immunity to water is always good along with passive recovery if you have rain support, since water is such an overpowered type dealing way too much damage to even resisted targets. One of the many things that hinder electric types is that they can't switch in to most water moves, the type that they are supposed to check in the first place.
Thundurus, both formes, is frail as hell, and has no means of recovery so your check to waters is easily worn down. Add to stealth rock weaknesses and you got a very shaky check. Mega manectric falls in the same boat, it has to have a free switch in or it risks taking a butt ton of damage from even scald of all things. Raikou may have better defenses, but it still can be worn down even if you have assault vest.
in terms of power, heliolisk may be given a boost if it has solar power, where it can outdamage thundurus very easily, but thats a little restrictive, so its kind of a moot point.
Therefore, imo heliolisk is a good mon, but his glass defenses, questionable typing, and unless you run solar power, lacks good boosting moves will be his downfall.
Id say C+.
Having dry skin is actually really good, because having an immunity to water is always good along with passive recovery if you have rain support, since water is such an overpowered type dealing way too much damage to even resisted targets. One of the many things that hinder electric types is that they can't switch in to most water moves, the type that they are supposed to check in the first place.
Thundurus, both formes, is frail as hell, and has no means of recovery so your check to waters is easily worn down. Add to stealth rock weaknesses and you got a very shaky check. Mega manectric falls in the same boat, it has to have a free switch in or it risks taking a butt ton of damage from even scald of all things. Raikou may have better defenses, but it still can be worn down even if you have assault vest.
in terms of power, heliolisk may be given a boost if it has solar power, where it can outdamage thundurus very easily, but thats a little restrictive, so its kind of a moot point.
Therefore, imo heliolisk is a good mon, but his glass defenses, questionable typing, and unless you run solar power, lacks good boosting moves will be his downfall.
Id say C+.
Lol no Heliosk is not getting ranked. I really hope I don't have to write an entire post explaining myself, you guys should know better. Please stop discussing incredibly niche shit and move onto talking about something meaningful such as potentially moving up Diggersby to A- or Zard-Y down to A.
Just out of curiosity, has blacklisting Pokemon whose OU analysis has been rejected ever been considered? As I said before, it's being done in the Ubers thread, and while I know that we shouldn't do something simply because it is done in Ubers, it seems like it would save a lot of people some trouble if Pokemon with a rejected analysis were not brought up and argued over. Admittedly, Empoleon, Jirachi, Kyurem and Venomoth would be blacklisted if this were to happen and I don't use or see them enough to say whether they deserve to be blacklisted. However, it seems that it would help prevent needless arguments in the long run.
C'mon Gary2346, no need to shut down the Heliolisk discussion. Yeah sure, it may be slower and less powerful than Thundurus and Raikou and seemingly outclassed by them in every way, but it has Specs Solar Power STAB Hyper Beam which is super awesome. Do Thundurus or Raikou have that? NO! Yeah, yeah, recharge turn blah blah set-up bait blah blah blah; it feels good to nuke something with Hyper Beam and for that reason alone it should be ranked. Specs Solar Power Heliolisk with Hyper Beam absolutely wrecks shit on the low ladder, and since this thread is about helping newer players, what works on the low ladder should have more of an influence on these rankings than what happens on the high ladder because newer players dgaf about the high ladder anyway. So I think I have made a perfect argument for why Heliolisk should be S rank and there is nothing anyone can say to dispute that.
Edit: Now that I think about it, I'm really surprised Heliolisk hasn't been banned already. It basically gets triple STAB off of a 150 BP move. To put that in perspective, Mega Charizard Y only gets double STAB off of a 110 BP move and look at how powerful it is. That kind of power is broken as fuck, and that makes Heliolisk unhealthy for the meta.
Edit: Now that I think about it, I'm really surprised Heliolisk hasn't been banned already. It basically gets triple STAB off of a 150 BP move. To put that in perspective, Mega Charizard Y only gets double STAB off of a 110 BP move and look at how powerful it is. That kind of power is broken as fuck, and that makes Heliolisk unhealthy for the meta.
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Thank you this is exactly what I was trying to get at.
Sure Raikou may be able to beat Venasaur. But can he beat quagsire while beating garchomp? No he can't he either has to run HP grass or Hp ice he doesnt have the luxury of running grass know with HP ice that heliolisk does. My point is Raikou and Heliolisk are both different Pokemon who win against different POkemon and lose to different pokemon. One does not outclass the other. His "piss-weak" defense aren't relevent because he isn't meant to take hits. He is a hit and run attacker who constanty switches out using volt switch. Also just because he is in an inferior speed tier that doesn't mean he is a bad pokemon as 109 speed is still good and outspeeds many threats. And to add to his 109 speed he has a water immunity which neither Raikou nor Manectric have. Heliolisk is also a great check to the ever common Rotom-W which he can switch into anything rotom does.
Wow this thread got ruined fast by "triple stab heliolisk". Can we get back to the point I brought up about diggersby in a- please? After some more testing I really think sashed Sd diggersby is just incredible because on sand offense almost nothings taking diggersby and excadrills onslaught bar skarmory, who should be easily covered by talonflame (who should be on every sand team IMO). Only things truly walling diggersby 100 percent of the time is balloon aegislash, as gengar and skarm do not like wild charges on some sets.
Also, I think char Y needs to drop IMO. Its checked incredibly easily, and I'd really compare him to mega medicham, who isn't A+ so why should zard be? Zard has no priority, and an overly crowded speed tier. Sure, zard punches holes, but with a bit of prediction, specs keldeo can do just as well, and it has a better speed tier and the ability to beat chansey to boot. I think zard Y is incredibly overratted on the higher ladder, and deserves a drop to A or even A-
I'll be back later for discussion on reuniclus, who needs to go entirely or to D rank.
Also, I think char Y needs to drop IMO. Its checked incredibly easily, and I'd really compare him to mega medicham, who isn't A+ so why should zard be? Zard has no priority, and an overly crowded speed tier. Sure, zard punches holes, but with a bit of prediction, specs keldeo can do just as well, and it has a better speed tier and the ability to beat chansey to boot. I think zard Y is incredibly overratted on the higher ladder, and deserves a drop to A or even A-
I'll be back later for discussion on reuniclus, who needs to go entirely or to D rank.
If that Garchomp is Scarfed, which is rather common, Heliosk can't take it out either. It's also too frail to come in on Outrage, and Dragon Claw and Stone Edge cripple it. If you come in on Quagsire's Earthquake, it also dies. It is not a sure-fire counter to either Pokemon, so they make for shaky arguments.Cinco Swift said:
You still need to get him in safely, though, and the fact that most physical attackers can put him in into the red with stray attacks on the switch is a serious liability. Heck, even Greninja has better physical bulk. There's a difference between being meant to take a hit and being able to take a hit, and the latter is still important even for sweepers and late-game cleaners. Many of the Pokes you've named can maim Heliosk without even trying, and the few that can't are not such huge threats that they merit a Poke who is otherwise outclassed in speed and power by other electric types.Cinco Swift said:
Gary2346 has already stated that Heliosk is not getting ranked, so if your only argument is that it handles a small number of Pokes better than the other electric types, you should probably move on.
I would like to preface this saying that I do not think Charizard Y is bad, just outclassed.
Charizard Y for B+
Let us look at the A Rank definition and see how it applies to Zard Y.
A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the OU metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be overlooked when compared to their positive traits.
The first thing that pops out here is the phrase "sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame", which does not apply to Zard Y. It has many more counters than the other wallbreakers in the tier in Lati@s, Talonflame, Heatran, Garchomp, Charizard X, Chansey, and Dragonite and has way more checks than other wallbreakers. It is unable to sweep or wallbreak most of the tier. His massive amount of checks also mean it can't do its job more than once and is unable to threaten more than one Mon on your opponent's team.
The second thing that pops out is "require less support than most other to be used effectively and have few flaws that can be easily overlooked when compared to their positive traits". Charizard Y REQUIRES Hazard removal and a Pursuit trapper, which eats up 2 of your teamslots just to support a wallbreaker. Not a sweeper, but a wallbreaker who can only do its job one time before becoming dead or useless. It is also restrictive on its user's teambuilding because now you have to take in the possibility of Drought being active when you have your other Pokemon out, meaning you can't slap a Water-type or Fire weak/neutral Pokemon on your team without possible repercussions. This is extremely inefficient.
"But that can't be your only reason to drop Zard Y," you may say. "It hits hard as fuck and nobody can do what it does."
Actually, there are several Pokemon that already do its job. And they are way better.
Secondly, all of them have ways of fucking over a switch without much prediction. Lando can Knock Off, U-Turn, or Calm Mind, Keldeo can potentially get a Scald burn, Kyurem-B can set up a Sub and proceed to potentially wreck your opponent, Azumarill can Knock Off or Belly Drum, and Terrakion can use Swords Dance, Sub, Taunt, Rock Polish, or even Stealth Rock. Zard Y needs to predict perfectly otherwise a check comes in and you're immediately forced out while potentially giving your opponent a free Dragon Dance/Swords Dance/Whatever.
Thirdly, none of them require the level of team support that Zard Y does; since the list of things they want dead is small compared to Zard Y. Lando actually doesn't need anything dead as long as it is in front of something that it threatens the fuck out of and lets it start U-Turning/Knock Offing, Keldeo only needs the Latis gone, Kyurem-B only needs Chansey dead (or can kill her itself depending on the set Kube is running) when against Stall or anything faster than it that has super effective moves, Azumarill is only troubled by Mega Venusaur and Amoongus (who are dealt with similarly), and Terrakion is only really walled by Skarmory, Lando-T, Gliscor, and Aegislash without an Air Balloon. What does Zard Y need dead? Thundurus, Landorus, Bisharp/Keldeo/Azumarill/Deoxys-S if you can't get rid of SR for whatever reason, Garchomp, other Charizards (mainly X), Tyranitar, Heatran, Chansey, Talonflame, Deoxys-S, the Latis, Scarf Excadrill, Politoed, and Dragonite. Wow, that list is long.
Fourthly, none of these Mons are one dimensional (barring Keldeo, who is still hard to deal with thanks to Secret Sword). Landorus can be a Pivot, offensive SR setter, Calm Mind sweeper, and has several coverage options in Sludge Wave, Focus Blast, Earth Power, and Psychic to go along with U-Turn or Knock Off. Kyurem-B can run Physical Scarf or Life Orb, Azumarill can Revenge Kill AND sweep, and Terrakion can sweep, set up SR, Revenge Kill, or even anti-lead. Zard Y has literally one set with massive 4MSS. You need Fire Blast, Solar Beam, and Roost, but have to choose between beating Tyranitar (Focus Blast), beating Heatran (Earthquake), maybe beating the Latis (Dragon Pulse), or going kamikaze to get rid of Chansey (Flare Blitz lolololol).
Fifthly, these Mons do not have trouble with offensive teams like Zard Y. They have the bulk, power, speed, resistances, coverage, and/or priority to actually threaten many offensive Mons. Zard Y? It's stuck at unboosted Base 100 with no priority, Fire/Grass coverage that cannot be boosted and is easily walled, and has 3 common weaknesses in Rock, Electric, and Water.
Finally, none of them need Chansey dead to do their job and can actually fuck her hard. This is the main reason why Zard Y is outclassed, because it is a wallbreaker that cannot break the most common and important wall in the game and has trouble with Stall in general. Landorous has Knock Off, U-Turn, and Calm Mind + Focus Blast to muscle past it, Keldeo just murders you, Azumarill also has Knock off and has been known to run Superpower, and Terrakion can just set up in front of you. The only thing in my list that has trouble with Chansey is Kyurem-B, who can still win depending on the set and fucks Stall over as soon as it gets a Sub up while Zard Y still struggles against several Stall staples such as Heatran, Zard X, and Mega Venusaur (who can stall out the Sun thanks to it boosting Synthesis' recovery).
Onto the B Rank definition.
B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are great in the OU metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential.
Charizard Y fits this perfectly. It is powerful, but flawed and needs support to do its job. You can't slap it on a team like pretty much everything else in the A and S ranks, you have to build your team around it.
TL;DR
Zard Y is outclassed and needs too much support to be considered anywhere A rank; drop it to B+.
I await your hate.
Charizard Y for B+
Let us look at the A Rank definition and see how it applies to Zard Y.
A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the OU metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be overlooked when compared to their positive traits.
The first thing that pops out here is the phrase "sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame", which does not apply to Zard Y. It has many more counters than the other wallbreakers in the tier in Lati@s, Talonflame, Heatran, Garchomp, Charizard X, Chansey, and Dragonite and has way more checks than other wallbreakers. It is unable to sweep or wallbreak most of the tier. His massive amount of checks also mean it can't do its job more than once and is unable to threaten more than one Mon on your opponent's team.
The second thing that pops out is "require less support than most other to be used effectively and have few flaws that can be easily overlooked when compared to their positive traits". Charizard Y REQUIRES Hazard removal and a Pursuit trapper, which eats up 2 of your teamslots just to support a wallbreaker. Not a sweeper, but a wallbreaker who can only do its job one time before becoming dead or useless. It is also restrictive on its user's teambuilding because now you have to take in the possibility of Drought being active when you have your other Pokemon out, meaning you can't slap a Water-type or Fire weak/neutral Pokemon on your team without possible repercussions. This is extremely inefficient.
"But that can't be your only reason to drop Zard Y," you may say. "It hits hard as fuck and nobody can do what it does."
Actually, there are several Pokemon that already do its job. And they are way better.
- Landorus-I
- Keldeo
- Kyurem-B
- Azumarill
- Terrakion
Secondly, all of them have ways of fucking over a switch without much prediction. Lando can Knock Off, U-Turn, or Calm Mind, Keldeo can potentially get a Scald burn, Kyurem-B can set up a Sub and proceed to potentially wreck your opponent, Azumarill can Knock Off or Belly Drum, and Terrakion can use Swords Dance, Sub, Taunt, Rock Polish, or even Stealth Rock. Zard Y needs to predict perfectly otherwise a check comes in and you're immediately forced out while potentially giving your opponent a free Dragon Dance/Swords Dance/Whatever.
Thirdly, none of them require the level of team support that Zard Y does; since the list of things they want dead is small compared to Zard Y. Lando actually doesn't need anything dead as long as it is in front of something that it threatens the fuck out of and lets it start U-Turning/Knock Offing, Keldeo only needs the Latis gone, Kyurem-B only needs Chansey dead (or can kill her itself depending on the set Kube is running) when against Stall or anything faster than it that has super effective moves, Azumarill is only troubled by Mega Venusaur and Amoongus (who are dealt with similarly), and Terrakion is only really walled by Skarmory, Lando-T, Gliscor, and Aegislash without an Air Balloon. What does Zard Y need dead? Thundurus, Landorus, Bisharp/Keldeo/Azumarill/Deoxys-S if you can't get rid of SR for whatever reason, Garchomp, other Charizards (mainly X), Tyranitar, Heatran, Chansey, Talonflame, Deoxys-S, the Latis, Scarf Excadrill, Politoed, and Dragonite. Wow, that list is long.
Fourthly, none of these Mons are one dimensional (barring Keldeo, who is still hard to deal with thanks to Secret Sword). Landorus can be a Pivot, offensive SR setter, Calm Mind sweeper, and has several coverage options in Sludge Wave, Focus Blast, Earth Power, and Psychic to go along with U-Turn or Knock Off. Kyurem-B can run Physical Scarf or Life Orb, Azumarill can Revenge Kill AND sweep, and Terrakion can sweep, set up SR, Revenge Kill, or even anti-lead. Zard Y has literally one set with massive 4MSS. You need Fire Blast, Solar Beam, and Roost, but have to choose between beating Tyranitar (Focus Blast), beating Heatran (Earthquake), maybe beating the Latis (Dragon Pulse), or going kamikaze to get rid of Chansey (Flare Blitz lolololol).
Fifthly, these Mons do not have trouble with offensive teams like Zard Y. They have the bulk, power, speed, resistances, coverage, and/or priority to actually threaten many offensive Mons. Zard Y? It's stuck at unboosted Base 100 with no priority, Fire/Grass coverage that cannot be boosted and is easily walled, and has 3 common weaknesses in Rock, Electric, and Water.
Finally, none of them need Chansey dead to do their job and can actually fuck her hard. This is the main reason why Zard Y is outclassed, because it is a wallbreaker that cannot break the most common and important wall in the game and has trouble with Stall in general. Landorous has Knock Off, U-Turn, and Calm Mind + Focus Blast to muscle past it, Keldeo just murders you, Azumarill also has Knock off and has been known to run Superpower, and Terrakion can just set up in front of you. The only thing in my list that has trouble with Chansey is Kyurem-B, who can still win depending on the set and fucks Stall over as soon as it gets a Sub up while Zard Y still struggles against several Stall staples such as Heatran, Zard X, and Mega Venusaur (who can stall out the Sun thanks to it boosting Synthesis' recovery).
Onto the B Rank definition.
B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are great in the OU metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential.
Charizard Y fits this perfectly. It is powerful, but flawed and needs support to do its job. You can't slap it on a team like pretty much everything else in the A and S ranks, you have to build your team around it.
TL;DR
Zard Y is outclassed and needs too much support to be considered anywhere A rank; drop it to B+.
I await your hate.
Complimentary STABs, variety in sets (set up/band/scarf) and roles (wall breaker/set up sweeper/revenge killer), immediate power, acceptable bulk, good move pool options (U-turn/Spikes/Wild Charge), and access to priority while freeing up a Mega slot lead me to believe otherwise since Diggersby certainly keeps you on your toes and is far more punishing when you guess wrong.
So B rank huh? Okay then.
Zard Y has been one of the most powerful Megas since the start of the gen, with its Fire Nuke being well documented at this point. Yes it is no longer S rank material as it is no longer regarded as the best special wall breaker in the tier, thus why it was moved down to A+ because of how outclassed it was by Landorus-I. Yet I do not believe it has gotten to the point that it needs to b e dropped in the slightest.
Your list of counters is interesting to say the least. Latias, Chansey, and Garchomp are sufficient counters yes, I will give you that but the others are not entirely so. Heatran while can easily switch in to the Fire Blast, is out paced, and swiftly 2HKOed by the standard Focus Blast set:
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 210-248 (54.4 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Which you can say is shaky all you want by Focus Blast missing, but the fact he can be 2HKOed by a Special Coverage move when it is considered to be a tank is definitely worth noting. I am excluding Earthquake out of the equation for simple reasons since with that, you give up the chance of defeating TTar reliably, thus making it an inferior option most of the time unless you want a stronger attack gainst most Fire Types. Heatran can not do much back if hit, only hoping to score a 2HKO with Ancient Power or its only shaky attack of Stone Miss to defeat it, making it not a counter in the slightest.
If we are taking Bulk Zard X into effect, which seems to be the go to Zard X now a days, we can see that he is even delt a significant blow with Focus Blast as well, coming stupidly close to 2HKOing:
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 175-206 (48.7 - 57.3%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
While Char X best bet is to fire off Dragon Claw, which deals a maximum of 86.5%, and since Bulk Zard does not run max speed like the Zard Y counterpart, it often gets 2HKOed before hand. Dragon Dance variants take a much stronger hit from said Focus Blast, but are able to ensure a OHKO with Dragon Claw, thus showing it can be a 50/50 trade depending on which set you run with your Zard X.
I'll refrain from the list of counters cause there is no denying that there are several revenge killers who can get it defeated such as Terrakion and Keldeo (if Specs variant like most are).
The Hazard removal being mandatory I find slightly tedious, many could just go and say that Hazards are easier to remove now a days when in fact its still a job that requires a good deal of difficulty put into it, but when you have the option of being able to remove hazards, you can justify it is adequate support, but it can be called just basic team support. The argument itself seems slightly detrimental to me when in fact you can look at many of the high ranking pokemon and seeing how many of them could be said to require hazard support but not with being said to be brought down as much as you claim Char Y to be. Do they all share a x4 Weakness? No, they all do not, but they are still greatly hampered by it non the less in the form of Dragonite losing it precious Multiscale to Talonflame having to take a bigger beating before recoiling itself into oblivion.
The pursuit trapper bit, while it is seen as a great archetype when building Char Y teams as documented in one of the RMT's, it is not entirely mandatory. It makes the job of Char Y easier yes, but when you call it stretching it to put a pursuit trapper on a team, when some of the most used pokemon in Bisharp and Aegislash are the premier pursuit trappers and can easily be slapped on to a team major support, then I find it not as mandatory even if it is greatly appreciated.
The comparison to the other wall breakers is just, and as stated, it is significantly outclassed by Landorus-I already, but the others I do not believe as much. Keldeo, as stated earlier, is often running around using a specs set, making it locked into a single move as it is attacking. Its other sets lack the immediate power of the specs set, and while fast, it still lacks quite a bit of power when facing tougher foes not counting Chansey when it is itself, one of the few pokemon who can break the blob with a special attack. Terrakion is no longer as powerful as it once was in prior gens, with it now having to choose who it is gonna be walled by. Does it wish to be walled by Aegislash or Lando-T/Gliscor? It can break through all of them through CB fine but becomes severely restricted as its SD set then becomes a choice of who is gonna wall me now which is understandable as it is Dual STAB is no longer what it once was, and hence why it is A rank.
Azumarill is a great wallbreaker with its BD set and its CB set, utilizing two fantastic STABs to great effect, except that it is slow, thus severely hampering its capabilities of defeating common pokemon outside of Aqua Jet spam. As it has been shown many a times, a 60 BP (after STAB) Aqua Jet can hurt a lot of things, but as it was when SD Aegislash was dying down, 60 Base power, is still 60 Base power. Then with its health being stripped greatly by the BD and then being susceptible to all forms of Entry Hazard damage and hard countered by common stall mons makes Azumarill hardly a better wallbreaker than Char Y when it can be countered as easily as Char Y can.
Just cause the other mons are able to defeat Chansey does not make them that much better when they themselves are unable to get past other prominent stall mons that are considered great counters to them. That to me just seems to be borderline favoritism.
I really do understand the sentiments of why people want Char Y to drop, and I do get that, but the fact is, non of the wall breakers listed outside of Keldeo and Landorus-I can do a job better than Char Y at defeating stall as wallbreakers. They are stopped by common stall trademarks as well, and the fact that they can and are hard countered just like Char Y is by Chansey, does not make them so much better that Char Y can go down to B+ ranking.
While going typing through this conversation, I do seem to think that Charizard may be better suited to A rank to fit alongside Terrakion as they both are quite similar in their wallbreaking skills and the fact that Keldeo resides within A+ ranking makes me wonder if it would make more natural sense that way. Thoughts?
You seem to be forgetting Diggersby has U-Turn if need be to keep up momentum and pop balloon in one go while he isn't as easily revenged because of more acceptable bulk - so that he can take on certain strong neutral attacks - and air balloon is not as dominant of an item choice so you are more likely to encounter Left Overs by a huge margin (50+%). While I can't exactly commend MVoir being able to switch in on a x4 resisted hit as it is no different than being able to commend Diggersby from coming in on an expected Shadow Sneak but hey he has the added utility of also coming in on electric attacks. I can't say how you can claim 68/65/135 to be better than 85/77/77 when at least Diggersby can survive a neutral attack from both spectrum whereas Gardevoir needs that neutral attack to come in on her stronger defense, and even then she still takes quite a beating as noted in earlier pages because of that abysmal base HP. If we are talking about relevance of immunities I'd give the leg up to Diggersby for not only having two but being quite relevant to one of the most used Pokemon and acting as a fairly reliable check.
And I can't say Diggersby is any easier to wall coming off his atk stat boosted by Huge Power and two high powered STABs with absolutely no drawback and complimentary to one another, whereas I cannot say the same for Gardevoir's other options outside of Hyper Voice so that he can just as well be threatening to balanced teams or stall, he is just as capable of 2 OHKOing a lot of things. Diggersby is seriously underrated.
The way to get him in safely is have something slow and bulky take a hit(mega scizor) and u turn into him. OR you use his water immunity to switch into the ever common water move and once hes in he gains momentum for your team and a favorable match up. He even has a ghost immunity to switch into an aegislash shadowball/shadow sneak. There ARE ways to get him in its easier than you think. Its also not that he handles a small number of Pokemon better its that he handles Water types in general better and has ample opportunities to come in due to the prevalence of water moves.
You are asking Focus Miss to hit twice, which is a 49% chance of happening. The odds are in the counter's favor, if only slightly. Heatran gets the Drought boost, too, you know, and a potential Flash Fire boost on top of that.
They only have to hit with Stone Edge once at 80% versus that 49% chance you need.
You still need perfect prediction to beat T-Tar, who has been known to run Scarf and can Pursuit trap you.
Zard X can just Dragon Dance, problem solved. This is also assuming Y predicts PERFECTLY again and doesn't miss with Focus Miss once. Again. If it hasn't Mega Evolved, it takes 59% max from Fire Blast and then you're forced to try to guess whether it will Mega Evolve to tank the Fire Blast or not Mega Evolve to tank the Focus Blast while it Dragon Dances.
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Charizard in Sun: 180-212 (50.1 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X in Sun: 90-106 (25 - 29.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Charizard: 87-103 (24.2 - 28.6%) -- 98.5% chance to 4HKO
Hazard removal is not tedious when you're weak to one of the most common attacks in the game that makes you lose half your health and practically doubles the number of things that check you. Also, fun fact; Bisharp will always OHKO after SR without a boost or without SR with a Defiant boost.
Gary himself said he needs Pursuit trapping support to function since it gets rid of things that stop you otherwise.
Keldeo has Secret Sword and Scald so being Specs locked isn't a problem.
Terrakion still has less things that wall it than Zard Y, and can still deal with Offense.
Azumarill can force a fuck ton of switches and get off a Belly Drum or punish them with Knock Off, which is one of its standard Band moves.
A wallbreaker that cannot break an important wall is a shit wallbreaker.
The difference is they all can actually do something against Offense and have a smaller number of things that check them, making them easier to fit onto your team. Hitting hard doesn't make you good if you don't provide good team synergy or it's useless against a significant number of opponents.
Terrakion is more versatile than Zard Y like I said in my previous post and is easily higher than wherever Zard Y ends up.
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Before expanding upon my views on Diggersby, I'd just like to point out that we don't need to compare Mega Gardevoir and Diggersby because both fill very different roles - and both can possibly move to A-.
Diggersby is one of the best sweepers in the current meta, as it can easily break through most teams if unprepared for. However, it does have quite a few flaws(such as speed, and a defensive typing that leaves it weak to many common attacking types), which is why it is essential to go through the matter carefully before deciding it's rank. While doing so, I am essentially looking at two sets: LO SD Diggersby and Scarf Diggersby
Some calcs to show how Diggersby does vs some of the S-Rank mons-:
S-Rank
a) Landorus-I:
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Diggersby: 502-593 (160.8 - 190%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Quick Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 242-285 (75.6 - 89%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
The LO SD set loses to Lando if it hasn't set up, although if it has set up, a little prior damage can ensure the KO.
252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 237-279 (74 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
The scarf set needs prior damage to beat Lando, but it loses if Lando gets a free switch-in
Summary: Lando generally beats Diggersby, but with prior damage Diggersby can beat Lando with the Scarf set or with +2 QA
b) Aegislash
- The Tank set and the SubToxic set both lose to Diggersby, as EQ KOes all variants and without LO/sufficient investment in attack, Aegi cannot KO back with Sacred Sword
4 Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Diggersby: 230-272 (73.7 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 300-354 (92.5 - 109.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
- The All-out attacking set can KO Diggersby(although it needs SR), but Diggersby likewise KOes that set, so one can say it's a tie
c) Charizard-X
- LO SD Diggersby can beat DD Char X with SR and prior damage, but loses if it hasn't set-up (although Char X cannot actually switch into Diggersby)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Quick Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 200-238 (67.1 - 79.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Diggersby: 357-420 (114.4 - 134.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- The Scarf Set cannot switch into Flare Blitz, but can take a Dragon Claw if needed and can KO with EQ:
252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 390-458 (130.8 - 153.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Diggersby: 237-279 (75.9 - 89.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
The bulky DD set can beat LO SD Diggersby, although it can't switch into EQ. However, Scarf Diggersby can KO with EQ -
252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 390-458 (108.6 - 127.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
The Bulky WoW set can cripple Diggersby, but loses to EQ from Scarf.
Summary: Scarf Diggersby can beat Char X, whatever the set(although if Char X is at +1, it loses), and LO SD Diggersby can beat the Offensive DD set.
d) Deoxys-S
This is quite obvious - Deo-S can revenge kill Scarf Diggersby and LO Diggersby - but loses to LO SD if it's at +2, and cannot actually switch into Scarf Diggersby
e) Deoxys-D
Diggersby can't stop Deo-D from setting up SR, but can 2HKO with Return or can use U-Turn to hit hard and switch to a suitable mon.
f) Thundurus-I
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Diggersby: 411-486 (131.7 - 155.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 288-340 (96 - 113.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Scarf Diggersby can't switch into Thundy-I's FB, but can beat it with Return. LO SD Diggersby can KO at +2 with QA:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Quick Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 296-348 (98.6 - 116%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Summary: Diggersby can't switch into Focus Blast, but can predict a T-Bolt or T-Wave and KO with the right move(if Scarf Diggersby). LO SD beats it if set-up
Considering that Diggersby does quite well against most S-Ranked mons, providing an excellent check for Aegislash, Thundurus-I and Charizard X while also being capable of KOing Lando-I with a little prior damage(although it loses to LO Deoxys-S if it's not set-up), I support Diggersby to A-. It's worth mentioning that Diggersby kills stall, as it can KO Skarmory with +2 Return, while also doing very well as a speedy pivot (Scarf Diggersby) - indeed, this replay shows us how good it can be(although Odin didn't win): http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-2163
Comparing with the other residents of A-, we find Mons like Manaphy and Mamoswine, which Diggersby is probably just as good at - indeed, it's quite comparable to Mamo, who has more bulk but less power. Diggersby has very few counters(if any), and a lot of it's offensive checks cannot actually switch into it.
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