Other The effectiveness of Baton Pass teams after the nerf

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

Well a big part of the Smogon community decided to nerf Baton Pass, which happens to be the playstyle of choice of Dennisss. You don't have to be surprised that he's going to get back at you for that now. And you know why? He has the skill to do it. He had the skill to do it before the nerf, and he has the skill to do it now. If that's not evidence that Baton Pass takes skill (and has always took skill, no less and no more before and after the nerf) then I don't know what is. Nothing's changed with the nerf for him. A good playstyle in the hands of an excellent player will always perform very well as you can see by Dennisss's results. It's never been broken, formulaic or cheap. Otherwise Baton Pass teams would be the most common playstyle on the ladder, because that's what people do. They copy what is cheap and easy to use (e.g. weather in 5th gen). Right now BP teams are a rare sight, even with all the (unnecessary) commotion around it. It was even less common before the suspect test and once this gets closed hardly anyone will be using it anymore, simply because they're not that overpowering. If something is really that good and brainless to use people will catch on quick to copypaste, trust me.

I guess the majority of people finally realized that they were wrong all the time. Sadly their reaction is continuing to complain about Baton Pass, rather than accepting that it is just a good playstyle that requires skill. This Baton Pass topic has been blown out of proportion for way too long now and I'm afraid that it's not going to stop either, though I seriously doubt a second nerf will ever be considered. This is what you guys asked for in the voting thread with a majority that says more than any words, so now just deal with it.

TL;DR Don't nerf BP but nerf Dennisss because he'll find a way to make any playstyle look broken.

 

[Rotosect]

How nice to see, I'm glad it was adapted as predicted. Now one wonders if others will finally start trying to adapt to it.

Specifically, the current build is extremely vulnerable to priority taunt. Sableye, in particular, tears it apart and Infiltrator pokemon hold even more strength than they did before thanks to ignoring screens. Perhaps we'll see a Chandelure or Noivern popping up to deal with this threat soon?

What started the anti-BP crusade was the community's refusal to adapt by using pokemon that aren't strictly OU material, such as the ones you mentioned. Sableye isn't a safe answer either, since Deoxys can sneak a Magic Coat on its set and turn it into set-up bait.

 

[Tactical]

What started the anti-BP crusade was the community's refusal to adapt by using pokemon that aren't strictly OU material, such as the ones you mentioned. Sableye isn't a safe answer either, since Deoxys can sneak a Magic Coat on its set and turn it into set-up bait.

Hmm? Deoxys isn't the thing to be taunted. Both Scoliopede and Smeargle lack mental herb and Espeon is weak to Dark attacks and really doesn't appreciate a knockoff. Being able to hose Deoxy-S that doesn't run magic guard is a bonus for Sableye and, in running magic guard, Deoxys loses the ability to stop opposing rocks making Smeargle's sash all but useless.

As for people being unwilling to adapt, the ban will show one of two things. Despite the resistence to it, alternatives to the "desired" meta-game can and will flourish even in the face of adversity and, if this is not heeded, the game will become very boring when everything not conforming to the bog standard is banned.

 

[Ninja Charizard]

I don't see what the issue is, really. Denisss just made a team that's really hard to beat, even managed to be "nerfed." Since enough people bitched about it to get it suspected, and eventually nerfed; and the outcome was something any idiot could foresee once the suspect test was placed, I'm sure Denisss had plenty of time to make a new team while he continued to autopilot the people on ladder who refuse to put checks for it in their teams. So now his new team is "broken" and "must be nerfed"? I think he's just a genius troll, and he's playing you guys...

I'm loving to watch this. It's like gen 6 is the gen of anti-meta teams. Smogon fighting to make a perfect HO/Balance/Stall meta, and those pesky players creating teams that go outside the norm.

I wonder what will the next one be. First was swagger, then BP, what's next?

On a more serious note, while BP is still very effective, it's noticeable how harder it to pull the chain off now. The playstyle is now more agressive. It doesn't use a defensive core like before, and resorts to agressively boosting in the face of offensive threats instead. It has one chance to succeed, and if it blows that chance, there's no restarting it.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I was under the impression that the 3 Baton Pass users rule was selected as an option with the knowledge that 3 was an arbitrary number that could be adjusted in the future as the need arises. If 3 chain teams end up becoming a problem (not saying they are or aren't just yet), would it be possible to adjust the number to 2 (or maybe even 1, if necessary) in order to balance the move and strategies built around it? Just food for thought.

 

[Rotosect]

On a more serious note, while BP is still very effective, it's noticeable how harder it to pull the chain off now. The playstyle is now more agressive. It doesn't use a defensive core like before, and resorts to agressively boosting in the face of offensive threats instead. It has one chance to succeed, and if it blows that chance, there's no restarting it.

Not true, as the replay posted in the previous page shows. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-131622043

The only reason Denisss lost here is because of a freeze, which broke the first chain, and a critical hit, which broke the second one.

 

[Ninja Charizard]

I wonder what Clefable is for. Seems like a secondary sweeper, am I right?

 

[Ajwf]

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I was under the impression that the 3 Baton Pass users rule was selected as an option with the knowledge that 3 was an arbitrary number that could be adjusted in the future as the need arises. If 3 chain teams end up becoming a problem (not saying they are or aren't just yet), would it be possible to adjust the number to 2 (or maybe even 1, if necessary) in order to balance the move and strategies built around it? Just food for thought.

Why not just adjust the mistake? If it turns out that after testing, Opt3 was the correct answer, revoke option2 and just enforce option three... There should be no reason these decisions are set in stone.

Ninja Charizard, as I've already explained, that Clefable is unaware. It is a secondary sweeper to screw with anything that tries to boost.

 

[Ada]

As I recall, denissss was in favour of option 3 a while ago, though I can't seem to find evidence of it. Maybe we should have taken his advice after all?

Or rather, since option 2 and 3 together reached a majority we should implement both of them simultaneously?
(i'm kidding of course)

 

[Ninja Charizard]

Just one thing: I'm not seeing many people here discussing whether BP is still overpowered or not.

Most people who are arguing for a new ban are doing it on the basis that BP is "still viable". For example, the fact there is still a BP player topping the ladder.

Something shouldn't be banned because it's "still viable". Otherwise just stop pretending and make a "non-standard teams" clause already. Like "You can only use a team that goes outside of the standard meta as long as it sucks and does not beat top level players".

 

[Rainbow Yaoi Fan 69]

How are scrubs gonna reach very far using a baton pass team? Baton pass actually takes skill and thought to do. You can't just randomly auto pilot through the battle to victory.

The nerf is fine. I personally never found baton pass teams to be a problem. They are just so frail and one mistake can ruin thier team badly.

 

[Ajwf]

Just one thing: I'm not seeing many people here discussing whether BP is still overpowered or not.

Most people who are arguing for a new ban are doing it on the basis that BP is "still viable". For example, the fact there is still a BP player topping the ladder.

Something shouldn't be banned because it's "still viable". Otherwise just stop pretending and make a "non-standard teams" clause already. Like "You can only use a team that goes outside of the standard meta as long as it sucks and does not beat top level players".

I know you're pretty biased on the subject, having read posts in the early thread during the suspect. However, no one can quite tell if it's OP right now. In concept, it is incredibly powerful. The screens literally hit you right when you need to be countering baton pass. In this alone, you're overloaded in tasks you need to take care of right away. We'll see soon, but I think that "hitting baton pass early before the boosts" is now a complete fallacy. And obviously stalling out the screens is not going to work... Having not played this team, I can't say for certain, but assuming the screens go up, you probably have already lost.

 

[Rotosect]

Perhaps the best way to describe the issue is this: when Swagger was unbanned, there were two kind of PranksterSwag teams, the "noob/trolly" ones and the "serious" ones. The first kind used 6 pokemon with Prankster, Swagger and Foul Play, even going as far as running complete trash like Liepard. Sometimes they ran 5 dedicated PranksterSwaggers+Ditto.
The serious teams used 2 dedicated Prankster+Swagger users at most (usually Klefki+Thundurus), Ditto, a dedicated entry hazard lead (Deo-D or Deo-S), a win condition (Mega Lucario when it was still around, Mega Pinsir or Megazard X after the ban) and a "PranksterSwag counter counter" (such as Conkeldurr. Mega Gengar is used in ubers for this role).
The "noob" archetype struggled to get past 1600 on the ladder because luck can carry you only so far, and without win condition or plan B in the event Swagger backfired they couldn't realistically hold a high position on the ladder for a long time.
The "serious" teams however were a legitimate threat and could comfortably reach the higher parts of the ladder.

BP teams always had the option to choose between "full-chain" and "half-chain", but since the first type was already good enough, there was no reason to bother with the second kind. Now that full chains are banned, the half-chain archetype is taking off.
The question is: could half-chain BP teams be more dangerous than full-chain? In my opinion the answer is yes for the same reasons "serious" PranksterSwag teams were more successful than "noob" ones: more is not always better.
"Half-chain" BP teams can get past annoyances such as Quagsire and Trevenant more easily, they can set up dual screens to stop Talonflame and Mega Pinsir in their tracks, both of which gave full-chain BP trouble. Vaporeon is no longer Taunt bait since it can run Scald and Stored Power itself as a BP recipient. Another recipient is Unaware Clefable, who absolutely murders anything that tries to set-up.
Finally they now have room to carry their own entry hazards, punishing switches more effectively.

 

[Tactical]

And since Smeargle has to setup an ingrain, seeing as Denisss has done it in every replay so far, half chain is even more crippled by Perish song. Given its immunity to spore, resistance to stored power and most coverage and access to Perish Song itself Celebi is now a beautiful user of the move in relation to stomping half-BP during her downtime when she's not performing cleric duties.

Half-chain isn't "stronger" because more variety was forced into it. It is now much weaker than its previous incarnation and can't protect itself from vulnerabilities innate to BP nearly as well. You just have to actually try to exploit those vulnerabilities.

 

[Clair]

The main difference is that the short Deo-S version is more reliable against straight up attacking, meaning the chain will almost always be set up, but it's more vulnerable to the dedicated Baton Pass counters (priority Taunt, Perish Song, Haze basically) than the longer chain. While this doesn't initially sound like a bad thing, enabling players who prepare for Baton Pass to handle it more easily, I feel like there's still a massive problem inherent in this situation. With straight-up boosting and offensive options virtually off the table (between Deo-S and Unaware Clefable), forcing players to use otherwise inferior moves or Pokemon to avoid a 6-0 simply creates more of a rock-paper-scissors type meta.

 

[Tactical]

The main difference is that the short Deo-S version is more reliable against straight up attacking, meaning the chain will almost always be set up, but it's more vulnerable to the dedicated Baton Pass counters (priority Taunt, Perish Song, Haze basically) than the longer chain. While this doesn't initially sound like a bad thing, enabling players who prepare for Baton Pass to handle it more easily, I feel like there's still a massive problem inherent in this situation. With straight-up boosting and offensive options virtually off the table (between Deo-S and Unaware Clefable), forcing players to use otherwise inferior moves or Pokemon to avoid a 6-0 simply creates more of a rock-paper-scissors type meta.

Run Brickbreak. It literally 100% counters the duel screen setup via killing Deo the turn screens are removed and it's damage applied the turn they would try to bring in Smeargle to sleep the threat, removing his sash.

Really. This isn't hard. Stop refusing to use counters to your opponent's strategy. A move or pokemon is not inferior if it counters a section of the meta that your team currently lacks and is beaten by.

 

[jbtc10]

ScoliPass.team is also a thing, where you don't even have a chain but just pass directly to a certain recipient (usually either Espeon or Clefable) depending on what the circumstances in the game are. Team in my sig is something I've been using since the start of the suspect test and boy does it work wonders towards fast laddering.

 

[HolyAvatar]

Run Brickbreak. It literally 100% counters the duel screen setup via killing Deo the turn screens are removed and it's damage applied the turn they would try to bring in Smeargle to sleep the threat, removing his sash.

Really. This isn't hard. Stop refusing to use counters to your opponent's strategy. A move or pokemon is not inferior if it counters a section of the meta that your team currently lacks and is beaten by.

Deo-S is not meant to switch out, ever. It will taunt and set up screens or die trying if a threat is revealed in team preview. Deo-S is the fastest taunt user besides priority, since -correct me if I'm wrong- there's no hazard priority taunt user, smeargle's sash will never be broken. For that you'd need either passive damage (scarf t-tar/abomasnow lol) or multihit moves (i guess mega hera cross but it needs to ohko scolipede -since that looks like the better option after DeoS is gone- through +2 def (AND reflect maybe if you didn't pack priority taunt) or 2hko a recipient both of which are not achievable).
In all scenarios, it is extremely unlikely to win.

I guess threat identification and planning for it can be called skill.

 

[Tactical]

Priority Spikes are a thing thanks to our friend Klefki.

Regardless, it's not really needed. Infiltrators tear this setup apart and Brick Break is a foolproof measure against this Deo-S suicide lead since he can't exactly keep screens up the turn he dies, taunt or no.

As for planning for it, yes, teambuilding is an important skill to have.

 

[Clair]

Run Brickbreak. It literally 100% counters the duel screen setup via killing Deo the turn screens are removed and it's damage applied the turn they would try to bring in Smeargle to sleep the threat, removing his sash.

Really. This isn't hard. Stop refusing to use counters to your opponent's strategy. A move or pokemon is not inferior if it counters a section of the meta that your team currently lacks and is beaten by.

Unfortunately, Brick Break is otherwise a completely inferior move. Yes, it may become the best move in a Baton Pass-heavy metagame, but if you read my post, you'd see that I highlighted this as something to avoid due to it creating a rock-paper-scissors type meta. The same goes for Infiltrator and everything else you've brought up.

Baton Pass always beats teams which don't specialise to beat it, but always lose to those which do. Those which don't specialise also get an advantage against those that do (especially if they're using shit like Brick Break, Infiltrator mons, Perish Song Celebi, and so on). You see why this is unhealthy? The outcome of games becomes much more predetermined by team matchup.

 

[dEnIsSsS]

HAHHAHA I cant believe im reading this shit! LOL

 

[TIZNE]

I think Denisss was already working in this new team at least one month ago. He said in his RMT the approach he would be taking in the different possibilities of complex banning. And what do everyone do after the banning? Take out their BP checks and counters off their teams. He's taking everyone off guard, AND with a very well prepared strategy.

Flamer already said it: We've got scouted, predicted and outplayed. So let's keep the banhammer in it's place for a while, get back on our guard, and catch up with Denisss. Let's find out if the "rock-paper-scissor meta" in a couple of months becomes more homogeneous (skill dependent) or heterogeneous (match-up dependent).

 

[Ninja Charizard]

Deo-S is not meant to switch out, ever. It will taunt and set up screens or die trying if a threat is revealed in team preview. Deo-S is the fastest taunt user besides priority, since -correct me if I'm wrong- there's no hazard priority taunt user, smeargle's sash will never be broken. For that you'd need either passive damage (scarf t-tar/abomasnow lol) or multihit moves (i guess mega hera cross but it needs to ohko scolipede -since that looks like the better option after DeoS is gone- through +2 def (AND reflect maybe if you didn't pack priority taunt) or 2hko a recipient both of which are not achievable).
In all scenarios, it is extremely unlikely to win.

I guess threat identification and planning for it can be called skill.

I've only played one match against this new BP team (I won, though my opponent made some glaring mistakes), but from what I've noticed, I think trying to stop Deo-S from using dual screens is moot.

Instead, using those turns to prepare something else to deal with the incoming BP chain seems like a better idea. Though what this "something else" would be still needs to be researched (I need to battle against more BP teams). I did notice that my previous "use stealth rock on turn 1 to prepate against Smeargle" becomes a lot more effective, though.

A good idea might be to look into things that used to have trouble against BP because of Sylveon. Sylveon is not in the new team, and that's HUGE.

HAHHAHA I cant believe im reading this shit! LOL

Dude. You are fucking awesome.

I've never seen an entire community get trolled so hard, twice, by a single person. Seriously, congratulations.

 

[Ada]

Apparently, Deoxys is getting suspected next, who seems to be the main culprit behind all this. It's still too soon for Baton Pass fans (not that I was tempted to put anything else here) to be rejoicing.

I knew I couldn't have made a mistake in voting for option 2

 

[sidakarya]

I've seen this kind of team work with Klefki too, who does the screens just as well thanks to priority. Of course, Klefki has no Taunt, which is a disadvantage against counter-leads, so.