Other The effectiveness of Baton Pass teams after the nerf

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i abused it under the name "mini cancer" just to see what it was like, and literally every game at the start of team preview I could predict and say "yep this is a won game" or "yep this is a lost game." there were some exceptions where I choked or got haxed where I had the matchup advantage, and some games I clutched out using surprise sets (or just winning 50/50s--another rock-paper-scissors element) that beat the BP counters my opponent carried when they had the advantage, but on the whole the predictions I made in team preview were far too accurate.
You're kind of contradicting yourself there. First you say the games are decided before the match starts, then the next thing you say is that you also lose games because of choking or hax, despite you having the advantageous matchup. Either way, isn't every game matchup reliant to some extent? For example Rain teams can have an advantageous matchup against Hyper Offense because they can abuse Swift Swim and the Rain boost to sweep with relative ease, but against Stall they'll really struggle to break past things like Chansey or Mega Venusaur. It doesn't really say anything about the level of brokenness of Rain teams though; just that they have better matchups against certain playstyles.

In my opinion, it's not so much about the matchup, but more about how you deal with this (dis)advantage during the match itself. After all, the better player is not the one with the better team, but the one with the better skills (at least that's how I feel about it). If you can outplay your opponent despite him having a team advantage against you, then that's a display of skill.

On a side note, why don't you guys just ban Iron Defense/Acid Armor/Barrier/Amnesia? Those moves have zero competitive value outside of Baton Pass, but they play a very significant role in making the chain difficult to break. Not just because it reduces the damage of your opponent overall, but also because it makes your Substitutes very difficult to break through. You could say that Baton Pass is not the problem; it is just the transferrer of the problem, the stat boosts that make pokemon undefeatable. For example, when I use Baton Pass I always use Mew with Taunt/Barrier/Amnesia/Baton Pass to make it easier to setup for Espeon, but without these defense boosts you have virtually nothing to stop physical attackers from breaking through, and you have to rely purely on Calm Mind and speed boosts to sweep.

Again I'm not for another nerf, but the last one was pretty much unavoidable because people just really don't seem to like Baton Pass, so I'm not really expecting anything different for the nearby future. It just seems to be an easy solution so we don't waste so much time discussing with absolutely no results, as we can see now. Pretty much the BP suspect thread in a nutshell. So yeah, let's try to avoid that.
 

Tele

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I think the new baton pass chain is as effective as the previous chain; i want to remark how balanced teams still have literally no chance against this playstyle, and even after the nerf, only hyper offense really counters bpass.
 

ginganinja

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You're kind of contradicting yourself there. First you say the games are decided before the match starts, then the next thing you say is that you also lose games because of choking or hax, despite you having the advantageous matchup. Either way, isn't every game matchup reliant to some extent?
To some extent, thats a fair argument, yet Baton Pass takes it to certain extremes. The limited pool of viable counters (I'd prolly consider Crobat trash) means that if your team lacks them, you flat out lose, and even if you have them, sometimes it still comes down to 50/50s regardless. I'm sure Stathakis can do a much better job at explaining this further as im currently doing a rather poor job explaining the issue, but the reason reason I wanted to reply was this

On a side note, why don't you guys just ban Iron Defense/Acid Armor/Barrier/Amnesia?
Because, strictly speaking, these moves are not directly "broken". Sure, we could ban them, there is certainly nothing preventing ourselves from doing so, but in general we prefer to actually ban the broken aspect of the strategy, and in this case it looks like Baton Pass is the abuse case. Its one of the reasons we banned Blaziken in BW, and not Speed Boost.
 
I seriously hope we don't ban BP outright, that would be removing an entire tactic of play from the meta-game which does take skill. There is no reason quick-passers should be banned. I used quick-pass Scolipede initially and while passing was easy, any competent player could always force me out regardless of who I passed it too. The higher up the ladder I went the more easily quick-passing failed so its far from broken. So in the end I gave up using Scolipede (the best BP mom ever besides moody smeargle). The collateral for banning BP is too high, so many non-broken teams would disappear and the game would become stale.

Personally I think we should have only 2 BP users per team. This breaks down the mighty Scolipede- Smeargle- Espeon core and makes it too difficult to stack up enough boosts to sweep. Without Smeargle you can't put the most threatening mom to sleep and so Scolipede and Espeon get overwhelmed from any serious special or physical pressure respectively. Just limit BP to 2 and that should do the trick. If not then 1 to keep quick-passing or ban BP on Scolipede. But please, please don't ban quick-passing!

Who knows, some bright spark might find out a way to break Deniss's team. Here is me having a go with a 1700 stall team and still winning against that BP team using a little bit of surprise factor...

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-132945315
 
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To some extent, thats a fair argument, yet Baton Pass takes it to certain extremes. The limited pool of viable counters (I'd prolly consider Crobat trash) means that if your team lacks them, you flat out lose, and even if you have them, sometimes it still comes down to 50/50s regardless. I'm sure Stathakis can do a much better job at explaining this further as im currently doing a rather poor job explaining the issue, but the reason reason I wanted to reply was this



Because, strictly speaking, these moves are not directly "broken". Sure, we could ban them, there is certainly nothing preventing ourselves from doing so, but in general we prefer to actually ban the broken aspect of the strategy, and in this case it looks like Baton Pass is the abuse case. Its one of the reasons we banned Blaziken in BW, and not Speed Boost.
Well it's not as black and white as you and others have made it out to be, not going to elaborate again on this but like I said in an earlier post: if Baton Pass is really as ridiculously broken, cheap formulaic, overpowering and almost uncounterable as you and other pro-ban users make it out to be (I'm not even exaggerating, that's literally what you guys are saying) then it would be the most used playstyle in the OU metagame. Because when something is really effective and easy to use, people copy it. And it doesn't take long either (weather in 5th gen became the standard instantly and it never changed during the whole generation, now that was actual centralization). Baton Pass is very uncommon, even now with all the commotion about it. Just because some people can get to the top of the ladder with it doesn't mean much either. Give a good player a good team and they'll get far. Doesn't have to be Baton Pass, they can do it with HO, Stall, balance, anything. Bad players won't achieve this success with BP or any other team. You know why? Because they don't have enough skill to use it. This applies to every playstyle, BP is not an exception, and it's definitely not easier to use than other teams.

Also, forgive me if I disagree that banning Baton Pass would be the best action. The broken aspect seems to be Baton Pass at first sight, but if you think about it twice it's really just a tool to make pokemon overpowering in certain scenarios (e.g. passing a lot of boosts to Espeon with Stored Power). It's only "broken" (I personally would beg to differ, but it's what the community seems to see it as) when you pass Defense boosts. One look at some of the replays where people desperately try to bash a +2 Def Unaware Clefable with a Mega Pinsir while it freely sets up should be clear enough to show that this is true. SmashPass isn't broken at all. Why? Because the pokemon can still be broken by offensive means, like priority or just offensive pressure as the opponent tries to pass. With defense boosts this is not the case.

So now that we know that the "broken" (again, I personally don't think BP is broken myself, I'd rather call it it's biggest strength) aspect is the Defense boosts, we can come to a simple conclusion. Ban all the moves I mentioned (Acid Armor, Barrier, Amnesia, Iron Defense) and you take the broken aspect of BP away. No collateral damage whatsoever, because those moves are literally never used in OU. At all, no exceptions. Ban Baton Pass and you kill every competitive use of the move (like Smashpass, dry passing, scouting, not to mention an entire playstyle. And that when there is no reason to not just ban the broken part of the playstyle.
 
Who knows, some bright spark might find out a way to break Deniss's team. Here is me having a go with a 1700 stall team and still winning against that BP team using a little bit of surprise factor...

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-132945315
So many mistakes from the bp team it's not even funny. Why the hell did he switch Deo-S without setting up the second screen?
If he had done that he would have been able to sub on your mew and prevent your ditto from transforming. And you would have lost the game. Even without the screen you NEED to sub against a ditto.
Last but not least, had he went to Clefable he would still have won despite the misplays.

That guy doesn't know what he's doing honestly.
 
"If it's so good, why doesn't everyone use it?"

It's a pretty relevant argument, but it also has a simple answer. People don't use Baton Pass because they don't want to. The analogy of weather in 5th gen doesn't really work, as weather battles still fell within what most people considered normal battling strategy (and even then, a lot of people played weatherless teams or just joined the Clear Skies meta). Baton Pass doesn't - it's completely different to any other kind of playstyle. Players avoid it because it doesn't offer the same experience as playing what many regard as "real" Pokemon battles. On top of that, it's widely regarded as cheap and skill-less.

I made a Baton Pass today, went 36-1 (only losing to some unholy combination of Sableye and Haze Milotic), and laddered close to my main account. However, I would never consider using Baton Pass as my main strategy. While it's good for winning, and a few cheap laughs before the novelty wears off, it's just boring. It feels like a formula. I'm sure some people don't agree with me, but at the same time, I'd say a considerable number do.

In other words, the relatively few people currently abusing Baton Pass isn't any argument against it being broken.
 
"If it's so good, why doesn't everyone use it?"

It's a pretty relevant argument, but it also has a simple answer. People don't use Baton Pass because they don't want to. The analogy of weather in 5th gen doesn't really work, as weather battles still fell within what most people considered normal battling strategy (and even then, a lot of people played weatherless teams or just joined the Clear Skies meta). Baton Pass doesn't - it's completely different to any other kind of playstyle. Players avoid it because it doesn't offer the same experience as playing what many regard as "real" Pokemon battles. On top of that, it's widely regarded as cheap and skill-less.

I made a Baton Pass today, went 36-1 (only losing to some unholy combination of Sableye and Haze Milotic), and laddered close to my main account. However, I would never consider using Baton Pass as my main strategy. While it's good for winning, and a few cheap laughs before the novelty wears off, it's just boring. It feels like a formula. I'm sure some people don't agree with me, but at the same time, I'd say a considerable number do.

In other words, the relatively few people currently abusing Baton Pass isn't any argument against it being broken.
I'm afraid I disagree. People considered Rain and Sand cheap and boring as hell last gen but nobody was afraid to use those teams anyway. And can you honestly blame them? If something is good, it works and it allows me to win with relative ease, I'm going to use it. Simple as that. If Baton Pass allowed to me do that, I would use it and what other people said would be the least of my concern. But nobody uses it besides a small group of people. And why? Because Baton Pass isn't cheap and easy to use to an extent that it centralizes the metagame because everyone can use it. Only a select group of people has the skill to succesfully use Baton Pass, and there is nothing wrong with that! This is a competitive metagame and skill is rewarded with good results, as our good friend Dennissss could probably attest.

Trust me, the average player is not as honorable as you claim. People use cheap strategies and tactics in every game, because that's what helps them win and nothing else matters to them. It's really naive to assume that they wouldn't use Baton Pass because their opponents consider it cheap, because people will call anything cheap when they lose to it.
 
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So many mistakes from the bp team it's not even funny. Why the hell did he switch Deo-S without setting up the second screen?
If he had done that he would have been able to sub on your mew and prevent your ditto from transforming. And you would have lost the game. Even without the screen you NEED to sub against a ditto.
Last but not least, had he went to Clefable he would still have won despite the misplays.

That guy doesn't know what he's doing honestly.
Just a few nick-picks. Yes Unaware Clefable ignores the boosts, but it does not reduce the base power of stored power, it would have still been destroyed. And yes he should have put up that second screen, but notice that flamethrower was doing around 58% damage to Scoilpede, so even with screens he still could not sub. And its mew not ditto, I could have packed shadow ball so Espeon had to start using calm mind. Bringing up a sub was too risky at that point. And once he used calm mind he was doomed. The forfeit also meant nothing, I had 2 stored powers left and after they were used up I would have passed to Sylveon and sweep with +6 hyper voice.

Transform Mew will never be a thing, it just happens to work with my team. BP needs to be nerfed more. As long as we all don't make any knee-jerk reactions after the first nerf failed we should be able to make BP viable but not broken.
 
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I'm afraid I disagree. People considered Rain and Sand cheap and boring as hell last gen but nobody was afraid to use those teams anyway. And can you honestly blame them? If something is good, it works and it allows me to win with relative ease, I'm going to use it. Simple as that. If Baton Pass allowed to me do that, I would use it and what other people said would be the least of my concern. But nobody uses it besides a small group of people. And why? Because Baton Pass isn't cheap and easy to use to an extent that it centralizes the metagame because everyone can use it. Only a select group of people has the skill to succesfully use Baton Pass, and there is nothing wrong with that! This is a competitive metagame and skill is rewarded with good results, as our good friend Dennissss could probably attest.

Trust me, the average player is not as honorable as you claim. People use cheap strategies and tactics in every game, because that's what helps them win and nothing else matters to them. It's really naive to assume that they wouldn't use Baton Pass because their opponents consider it cheap, because people will call anything cheap when they lose to it.
Alleged "cheapness" is only a limited deterrent, I agree. My main point above was that it isn't fun (or isn't to a significant proportion of people), and doesn't play similarly to "normal battling". Rain last gen could be considered cheap, for instance, but it still had most of the same basic rules as "normal battling". This is what I think is the crux - I know a lot of people who've never tried Baton Pass, and probably never will, because even though they know it's effective, they don't consider it to be proper battling. They don't avoid Baton Pass out of honour, they avoid it because they simply don't want to play it.

I also disagree that Baton Pass takes significant skill to use. As I mentioned, I literally picked up a team, with no prior experience, and went 36-1. Laddering up to the 1600's taught me everything I needed to know about how to use it effectively. There are basic rules with which to confront every situation, and once you understand those (which really just requires logic and a little experience), all that's left is the occasional prediction.
 
They don't avoid Baton Pass out of honour, they avoid it because they simply don't want to play it.
[citation needed]
Most people I know want to try out BP themselves but don't because they don't want to be being called names so unless you show me concrete proofs, this is bullshit.

I also disagree that Baton Pass takes significant skill to use. As I mentioned, I literally picked up a team, with no prior experience, and went 36-1.
You don't always have to try something yourself to have experience with it. :]
 
You're kind of contradicting yourself there. First you say the games are decided before the match starts, then the next thing you say is that you also lose games because of choking or hax, despite you having the advantageous matchup. Either way, isn't every game matchup reliant to some extent?

when I said "some," I meant " admittedly more than zero but still very few compared to when using any other team" i.e. I conceded it wasn't 100% matchup dependent, but perhaps 95%. normal games might be 60-65%
 
Just a few nick-picks. Yes Unaware Clefable ignores the boosts, but it does not reduce the base power of stored power, it would have still been destroyed. And yes he should have put up that second screen, but notice that flamethrower was doing around 58% damage to Scoilpede, so even with screens he still could not sub. And its mew not ditto, I could have packed shadow ball so Espeon had to start using calm mind. Bringing up a sub was too risky at that point. And once he used calm mind he was doomed. The forfeit also meant nothing, I had 2 stored powers left and after they were used up I would have passed to Sylveon and sweep with +4 hyper voice.

Transform Mew will never be a thing, it just happens to work with my team. BP needs to be nerfed more. As long as we all don't make any knee-jerk reactions after the first nerf failed we should be able to make BP viable but not broken.
If we're nitpicking, had he immediately baton passed to clefable after the cm he may have won since it isn't an offensive espeon.
I still agree that mew is good against baton pass because of its unpredicability. Since you don't know what to expect, may very go for the wrong mon.
 
"If it's so good, why doesn't everyone use it?"

It's a pretty relevant argument, but it also has a simple answer. People don't use Baton Pass because they don't want to. The analogy of weather in 5th gen doesn't really work, as weather battles still fell within what most people considered normal battling strategy (and even then, a lot of people played weatherless teams or just joined the Clear Skies meta). Baton Pass doesn't - it's completely different to any other kind of playstyle. Players avoid it because it doesn't offer the same experience as playing what many regard as "real" Pokemon battles. On top of that, it's widely regarded as cheap and skill-less.
I am not experienced in Pokemon battling, but experiences from the multitude of other games I played (especially MMOs) tells me that you are painting a pretty unrealistic expectation of people in general. People can and will exploit any means to win competitively or simply gain some sort of advantage. I really doubt that somehow a majority of the players on PS are of a higher intellectual and moral standing than players of other games. I do agree that there is a stigma associated with using BP though, which makes it all the more difficult to make an objective decision regarding this issue.

Alleged "cheapness" is only a limited deterrent, I agree. My main point above was that it isn't fun (or isn't to a significant proportion of people), and doesn't play similarly to "normal battling". Rain last gen could be considered cheap, for instance, but it still had most of the same basic rules as "normal battling". This is what I think is the crux - I know a lot of people who've never tried Baton Pass, and probably never will, because even though they know it's effective, they don't consider it to be proper battling. They don't avoid Baton Pass out of honour, they avoid it because they simply don't want to play it.
I believe that for some players, winning or dominating your opponent contributes a lot to "fun". For players who just want to have a high position on the ladder, it is completely possible for them to adopt a play-style that gives them the best chances of achieving that. I am not saying that this is true for a majority of the players, but I think it can be argued (from looking at other games) that they make up an observable population. Therefore, decision on whether further nerfing of BP is needed can definitely be based on observing the % of 3BP play-style vs. the % of 6BP play-style before the nerf.
 
[citation needed]
Most people I know want to try out BP themselves but don't because they don't want to be being called names so unless you show me concrete proofs, this is bullshit.
"want to try out" isn't the same as "want to ladder to #1 with" or "want to adopt as a dominant/sole playstyle". it takes a special kind of, uh, dedication to want to play dozens or hundreds of matches with a team archetype like this.
 
when I said "some," I meant " admittedly more than zero but still very few compared to when using any other team" i.e. I conceded it wasn't 100% matchup dependent, but perhaps 95%. normal games might be 60-65%
And how many of those teams put in any preparation for Baton Pass? I'm betting the answer is near zero.

What if, instead, they had no answer for say... Charizard X? Or Mega Pinsir? Those games would be match-up dependent, no?
 
And how many of those teams put in any preparation for Baton Pass? I'm betting the answer is near zero.

What if, instead, they had no answer for say... Charizard X? Or Mega Pinsir? Those games would be match-up dependent, no?

I'll start by saying your bet is wrong; most of the time and especially near the top of the ladder I was facing (and beating) teams with talonflame, thundurus-I, pinsir, taunt on random things, taunt speed boost gardevoir, etc. the answer was far from zero preparation. the opponents that gave me the most trouble were people who used haze on offensive teams. haze on stall teams was no trouble at all because of how easy of a time baton pass has against stall. beyond that, people needed to have multiple checks on the same team to stop it. if you don't believe me, play 100 games with baton pass and see the difference for yourself.

but that's not even the point. I am not trying to argue that baton pass is broken (though I believe it may be). my point is that you can, starting at team preview, follow a flowchart and get to top 10 on the ladder. in games where you have an advantage, you follow a flowchart and win. with zard x and pinsir, you still need to outplay your opponent in order to convert a slight team advantage to a victory. with baton pass, the only games that required ANY thought whatsoever on my part were those where I had a disadvantage. that is the difference. baton pass is for the most part mindless. you don't outplay your opponent. all you need to do is use a few surprising sets on your team and, failing that, win some coin flips.


with normal teams, at team preview you say "oh my opponent is weak to X on my team; here is my game plan how I will wear down his only checks and convert the advantage to a victory" and most of the time you will have to come up with a new one each game. with baton pass, it's "oh my opponent is weak to X on my team, here is exactly what will happen, turn by turn, and there is nothing my opponent can do." and it's the same plan, or perhaps one of 3-4 different plans, over and over again. it's algorithmic. and algorithmic teams are bad for the metagame.

further flarifying my earlier post, you might win 65% of your games where you have a slight advantage, or lose 65% of games where you have a slight disadvantage. baton pass wins 95% of games with an advantaged matchup and loses 95% of games with a disadvantaged matchup. hence, there is in practice no such thing as a slight team advantage or disadvantage with baton pass, only won games or lost games, and you know whether you are going to win or lose at the very start of the game. -that- is a property that is unique to baton pass, and in my opinion it makes baton pass bad for the metagame. it's not broken, but the metagame would improve drastically if it didn't exist.
 
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"Not viable" means just that: it is not viable in the general metagame and therefore weighs down the team in all but a very small number of situations. Something doesn't become viable just because it ostensibly helps against one playstyle.

I've never played SF4, but imagine there was a fighting game where nobody could see which character the other person chose until the match started. There are a bunch of well-rounded characters with various strengths and weaknesses. But then there is a character called S, who sucks against all those characters for some reason (he's slow, not as strong, his attacks are too punishable, whatever). Then there is a character called P, who is really powerful and can dominate against every character--except S who for whatever reason has an even matchup vs. P.

In that situation, P is still overpowered, and S still sucks. P can still win every time against the dozens of normal characters, and S still loses against them. Only in one situation is S useful to the player, and otherwise in almost every other circumstance choosing him is a huge liability. Telling people to "just deal with P by picking S" means you're telling people they have to choose between always losing to normal characters, or always losing to P.

Or we can just tell everyone to pick P. But then there goes any variability to the game (which people will whine about anyway).

What we want for a metagame, is one that is both as skill-dependent and as diverse as possible without changing the core game mechanics. When one type of team can steamroll through everything except teams that have a few things that suck against other types of teams, you lose both of those things: skill-dependency because the game becomes overly matchup dependent (gimmicks > OP strategy > normal teams > gimmicks), and diversity if people gravitate to the OP strategy in hopes of winning lots of matches and actually standing a chance vs. others using the strategy.

Pokemon is matchup dependent to a degree no matter how you look at it, of course, but when the game becomes essentially a rock-paper-scissors thing where the game is over at the battle preview, that doesn't exactly sound fun. And trying to balance the game to avoid that certainly isn't lazy.

Tl;dr for the above: Regardless of what anyone thinks about whether BP is (still) overpowered, I really wish this type of "just deal with it" argument would go away. If BP isn't broken, then there's nothing to do about it. But if it is, then that needs to be addressed. The problem with saying "just deal with it" is that it avoids such questions completely. Smogon is trying to balance the 6v6 singles metagame; anyone who does not like that philosophy as a whole (rather than just individual decisions) would probably have a better time just playing on battle spot under Nintendo's rules or with friends using their own rules, rather than trying to tell Smogon to stop doing what it was made to do.

It's easy to just shout out supposed solutions and go "lol u guys are dum," but if they are unconventional or have been shown to be poor choices in the past, nobody will take them seriously until we see those things in action not only against BP teams, but also vs. the metagame generally.

To address Psych Up specifically, the issue is simply that the move is dead weight against everything except BP chains.
Perish Song is more useful generally, but the only OU-viable pokemon to get it (which means, the only pokemon that can do well in OU generally, including outside of going against BP teams) is Celebi. Politoed can also do it, but he is mostly dead weight outside of rain teams. Also, nobody in their right mind will ingrain before any potential perish song users are dead, especially with the current anti-BP vs. anti-banning firestorm encouraging to run Perish Song on things that wouldn't otherwise run it.

EDIT: Typo.
That is exactly what I am saying, things are unviable until something makes them viable and vice versa. Rotom is viable because it checks a lot of the top threats. If Perish Song > BP Teams, would Perish Song still be not competitively viable? One move on a popular Pokemon in order to take out an entire strategy sounds like it would be well worth it. You don't even need to trap, just force the switch and now 3 of his 6 Pokemon are not that useable. 1 move, out of your 6 Pokemon to handle 3 out of 6 of his Pokemon (2 that have no attacks). Take one of the 3 Pokemon out and the BP strategy falls apart.

In Street Fighter they do blind picks. Usually the person tells a judge who they will use (online already forces blind picks). The only time you get to switch is if you lost the previous round. Also counter picks don't = a win. You are usually better off playing with your best character because Skill > Pick. Tiers are based off of current strategies. And like previously stated in the Metaknight vs Pikachu example, the lower tier character moves to a higher tier if it beats the higher tier character easily and often. High tier characters are usually also most frequently used which is why a non viable pick can become viable if it counters the top threat.

Tiers comes down to how well a character performs at the competitive level which really comes down to tournaments (in Pokemon it also includes the frequency of use). If almost everyone uses one team/character/strategy because it is the strongest, then what ever defeats that ends up moving up in the tier as a counter to the top level of play. Just like the Metaknight vs Pikachu example. Characters get banned in fighting games when they use different mechanics than every other character. Maybe they can't be stunned or have a move that shuts down every other character's approach like Akuma's Air Fireball in SSF2. In those cases there is no counter play what so ever and the only way to win is to use that character.

And tiers aside, Dhalsim is considered pretty average, yet he still wins bad match ups and places high in tournaments. He uses his strengths to zone and keep the other person out so they cannot set up their offense. If he messes up once, there is a good chance he lost, but at the same time, he shuts down so many people in the hands of a skilled player because they cannot get in on him in the first place. Most Dhalsim players don't like to play the typical way of rush down, if they were forced to play that way, they would lose.

If BP is broken, then why aren't more people having success with it? Get some more replays of random people climbing the ladder recently using only BP and getting higher than they would with a standard team. If only a handful of people are capable of using the strategy effectively to get to the top, then maybe they are just better or their brain works with that strategy better than the typical teams. That is diversity.

To say, "I don't want to use it because it is stale" is like saying you don't want to use Legendary Pokemon because they're boring. Play to win, and in the case, use BP, get to the top, THEN you have an example of how broken the strategy is. So far the only proof of this is people claiming to have won multiple games in a row using BP, have any of them gotten to the top?

And on the deadweight comment. You know what else becomes deadweight? All 6 of your pokemon because they cannot deal with BP.

Also here's something most people seem to not realize, "Jack of all trades, master of none". Just because your team is balanced, doesn't mean you deserve to win over someone who is specialized. This applies to other sports and even when looking for jobs in real life.


Where you're wrong is that Smogon bans stuff that's different and doesn't fit "The Metagame". Stuff gets banned because either A) it's unrealistic to expect people to find a method of handling it on every team (Mega Kangaskhan, Blaziken, Kyogre) or B) it lets worse players beat better players due to BS (Shaymin S flinch hax, no good way to handle evasion, Mega Gengar coming in and killing off whatever it wants). Stuff like that ruins creativity, which, believe it or not, isn't what we're trying to do here.

Psych Up is bad against every sweeper in OU, so it has exactly one purpose in stopping BP, and frankly it doesn't do that well at it either. Stored Power with enough boosts will blow straight through basically anything you want to try to go with, outside of Sash Alakazam or whatever special Dark type you'd like to bring to the party. Perish Song is much more realistic, but it's still hard to fit onto a team given that the usable mons that would run it are Celebi, who isn't great in this meta, and Politoed, who demands a very specific team to make it worthwhile.

On a more constructive note, Choice Scarf Switcharoo Klefki is adorable / fucking bullshit, being able to come in at any time and force a Scarf onto a core member of the team is quite useful. It isn't too bad at messing with other teams as well, works a little bit like Thundurus (less offensive power, but being able to force mons into one move or spreading paralysis, poison, and Spikes on the enemy team is worth something). Dragon Tail is another option on defensive mons now that Sylveon can't be a part of the chain, so long as you pack enough of a punch to break Subs and have a method of getting around Smeargle it'll work well.
So I am wrong? Shaymin S Flinch Hax is banned, but Paraflinch isn't? Ok, that makes sense.

And I know you like to argue any and all points, but let's keep this on topic. I don't want to go on a rant regarding the Mega Bans.

Psych Up, fair enough. It isn't the best, just an idea and would require creative thinking to figure out the best way to use it and sweep back, such as on a Dark type not weak to DG like Houndoom (Currently not viable) or Bisharp. And Perish Song is also available on Gengar and Azumaril which are both very common Pokemon. Like I said before, 1 move to shut down 3 pokemon/strategy = pretty darn viable. Especially if BP becomes a big problem and more than a handful of people run it.

And yes, Prankster item swaps is another way to shut down BP early on. I usually start my Noivern with Switcharoo Scarf since it cripples and out speeds many things. If the sub becomes the problem there is also Infiltrator, Sound Moves, Hail, and Sandstorm.

I do not get where you are going? It sounds like you are just arguing to argue? You agreed with my comment on Den's skill and provided an option for dealing with BP. Were you mainly here to just say I was wrong on my opinion of the Smogon Bans?
 
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my point is that you can, starting at team preview, follow a flowchart and get to top 10 on the ladder. in games where you have an advantage, you follow a flowchart and win.
Bit of an extreme claim their. If it could be done that easily more people would do it. To my knowledge i've only seen DeniSiS and Stinkki get in top 10 with baton pass. If there are others I'd love to see replays of them also as it would also take focus away from DeniSiS. Especially if these replays are post nerf.

Really just give this play style some time. It is definitely weaker now with less counters for Bird Spam and being more vulnerable to phazing.
 
Bit of an extreme claim their. If it could be done that easily more people would do it. To my knowledge i've only seen DeniSiS and Stinkki get in top 10 with baton pass. If there are others I'd love to see replays of them also as it would also take focus away from DeniSiS. Especially if these replays are post nerf.

Really just give this play style some time. It is definitely weaker now with less counters for Bird Spam and being more vulnerable to phazing.
I myself am currently sitting at 9th place under the name "mini cancer." I posted a few replays one page back, but usually I don't save replays. I guess I'll start if that's what it takes to convince you guys. personally I am convinced that anybody who uses baton pass for more than 30 games will reach the same conclusions that I have--that it sucks the fun out of pokemon for reasons I have already outlined several times.

again, I don't care about how strong baton pass is. as I have asserted and will continue to assert in this thread, something doesn't have to be broken to be unhealthy for the metagame. baton pass undoubtedly fits that category.
 
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Like Haunter said, this team has been around for only a few days. Let's see if people can find ways to beat it before we declare it broken.

If we do determine that this new style of Baton Pass is unhealthy for the meta, I think the best way to go would be to suspect test Scolipede. Baton Pass is not inherently broken; it has never been banned in any previous generation even when trap passing was a thing. Scolipede has taken both quick passing and chain passing to a whole new level thanks to its relatively good bulk and defensive typing and its ability to pass Iron Defense boosts which Ninjask couldn't do.

I think it would make more sense to suspect the greatest abuser of Baton Pass rather than the move itself just like many people here want to suspect the greatest abuser of Stealth Rock but not the move itself.
Do you realize how stupid suspecting Scolipede would be? It has legit uses outside of baton pass. LO Cleaner, to be specific, is one of the reasons scolipede isn't NU. Baton Pass is also, but that shit brought fucking smeargle to OU. If anything, susect espeon, because that is so fucking niche outside of MB screens. or better yet, limit chains to one or even two baton passers.
 

Karxrida

Death to the Undying Savage
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
Do you realize how stupid suspecting Scolipede would be? It has legit uses outside of baton pass. LO Cleaner, to be specific, is one of the reasons scolipede isn't NU. Baton Pass is also, but that shit brought fucking smeargle to OU. If anything, susect espeon, because that is so fucking niche outside of MB screens. or better yet, limit chains to one or even two baton passers.
Just because a Pokemon has a "legit" use doesn't mean it can't get banned. Blaziken's "legit" with Blaze yet is still in Ubers. We ban based off a mon's best set.
 

Karxrida

Death to the Undying Savage
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
But still, banning scolipede is a stupid idea because theres a shittier mon that is arguably better at BP, aka Espeon.
Scoliopede is the reason BP can beat offense while Espeon is the reason it can beat Stall, but Scolipede also can quick pass so easy it's fucking stupid, just ask WebBowser
 
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