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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)
- Thread starter alexwolf
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- Status
True, i always forget this.
Can we move Hawlucha to D or just remove it? It's weak, easy to wall, easy to cripple, easy to revenge, and its "best" set (Unburden) gets exactly one chance to sweep and forces it to go itemless. It offers nothing significant other sweepers don't have while also being hard countered by Aegislash, one if the most common and threatening Mons in the tier.
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SDPass or SubPass is not walled by Aegislash and can both sweep and support its team. It needs a lot of support and it is situational, but this is true for most of the Pokemon in C- rank.
On to ranking changes:
Espeon: C- ---> C+
Scolipede: B+ ---> A-
Kyurem-B: A --> A-
Mega Manectric: B+ ---> B
Espeon was put back to the rank it had before the Baton Pass nerf, because it was made obvious after some days that the nerf didn't trouble Baton Pass teams that much.
Scolipede was raised to A- because of its quintessential role on ChainPass teams, and multitude of effective sets, namely the Sash lead set, the cleaning set, and the Iron Defense + Baton Pass set, which can support not only ChainPass teams but any kind of offensive team in general. After all, what kind of sweeper doesn't appreciate a +2 Def / +1 Spe or +2 Def / +2 Spe?
Mega Manectric has been discussed a lot and it was unanimously decided to drop, so i won't tell anything about it.
Finally, Kyurem-B was dropped because the evolution of the metagame is a bit unkind to it. Sand offense has Tyranitar to hard check it and lot of offensive Pokemon to revenge kill it, such as Excadrill, Keldeo, Latios, and Talonflame, as well as sand damage to cut down on its already short lifespan. Offensive teams are also everywhere, and most of the Pokemon found on those teams can outspeed and OHKO Kyurem-B, in addition with the big pressure applied by the hazards from Deo-D teams. Finally, Kyu-B often struggles to break through some stall teams unless it uses 4 attacking moves, in which case it is much more prone to revenge killing and dies very quickly. Some stall Pokemon that can counter 3 attacks Kyu-B are Chansey, Clefable, Mega Scizor, and Mew, and one or more of those Pokemon are always found on stall teams. In general, Kyu-B is still very effective and can take advantage of the many Water-, Ground-, and Grass-type Pokemon used on defensive cores, but it needs a bit more support than it used to in order to pull its weight on your team.
Future ranking changes to discuss:
Victini rising from B- to B: TauntWoW, CB, and mixed sets are all great stallbreakers and wallbreakers, and the ability to check CM Clefable is very appreciated by a lot of offensive teams. Are those enough to justify a raise?
Gliscor rising from B+ to A-: Taunt, Roost, and Poison Heal are huge advantages Gliscor has over Landorus-T, making it a much more effective SR setter, stallbreaker, SubToxic staller, and wall. Landorus-T does pivoting and Scarf roles for offensive or bulky offensive teams better, but Gliscor is almost always the superior choice on any kind of defensive team and even on some balanced teams, while also having its own unique and effective sets (SubToxic), that can fit on any kind of team. Even though Gliscor faces competition from its fellow defensive Ground-types in A rank, namely Hippowdon and Landorus-T, it has more than enough pros to at least be in the same general rank as them (A), but because the metagame favors offense right now, where Hippo and Landorus-T are better, Gliscor fits perfectly one sub-rank lower than the other two.
Weavile rising from B- to B: Just check the last few pages for arguments supporting this, but there have been some people pushing for this, so let's give it a shot. So far i haven't been convinced by the arguments to raise it, but this could change.
Hippowdon rising from A to A+: People support this and it's a reasonable change, so let's see a bit more discussion about this.
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I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM
formerly Smog Frog
So umm... there wasnt any discussion on kyurem-black. why did you move it down? there's no way in hell its worse than rotom and comparable to the likes of scolipede, and you seem to know little or nothing of kyurem-b. 4 attacks kyurem-b is the best kyurem-b, sub is inferior. second, you seem to be ignoring its wonderful 125/100/90 bulk. its NOT easy to revenge kill outside of super effective STAB moves, and while its typing is shitty, its not keeling over and dying to stuff like talonflame. just please, at least get some discussion on something before you drop it out of the blue.
it has been mentioned a hundred of times but i will say it again: Ranks are not formed only from discussion that takes place in this thread, but from discussion that takes place on irc, pms, and any other way in general. I have talked with a few players whose opinion i value and they agreed with this change, so it happened. You can argue about it to be raised, and if your and others make valid points it may as well do, but don't assume the rank changes just happened on a whim.
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While I do admit that Hippowdon is indeed capable of being moved up to A+ as documented previously through many past posts and would like to hear new opinion on the Hippo from others.
I can see Gliscor becoming A- rank easily enough. He utilizes great resistances and stellar options in movepool that he can abuse to get the upper hand on his opponents. He has always been let down as a defensive mon by his sub par HP stat (and unable to recupe like Skarmory through sheer bulk and typing) yet is still able to be a usable edition to any team through its ability Poison Heal and great recovery options. He has access to great STAB to hit hard without much investment (not nearly as hard as Lando or even Hippowdon to be noted) and is able to stall out many other threats through his own toxic stalling. He does possess another huge niche over the other two defensive grounds in that he has the highest base speed of all of them. It is fast enough to be able to taunt major threats if and when needed and be able to not always take a hit first like its friends often are forced to do. To be honest I'm a little surprised it wasn't at least higher up before but course that might have stemmed from other more interesting topics to discuss (hopefully -_-).
So yah, support the Ground types moving up with Hippo to A+ and Gliscor A- respectively.
I can see Gliscor becoming A- rank easily enough. He utilizes great resistances and stellar options in movepool that he can abuse to get the upper hand on his opponents. He has always been let down as a defensive mon by his sub par HP stat (and unable to recupe like Skarmory through sheer bulk and typing) yet is still able to be a usable edition to any team through its ability Poison Heal and great recovery options. He has access to great STAB to hit hard without much investment (not nearly as hard as Lando or even Hippowdon to be noted) and is able to stall out many other threats through his own toxic stalling. He does possess another huge niche over the other two defensive grounds in that he has the highest base speed of all of them. It is fast enough to be able to taunt major threats if and when needed and be able to not always take a hit first like its friends often are forced to do. To be honest I'm a little surprised it wasn't at least higher up before but course that might have stemmed from other more interesting topics to discuss (hopefully -_-).
So yah, support the Ground types moving up with Hippo to A+ and Gliscor A- respectively.
I can see Hippowdon moving up honestly. It's pretty easy to fit on most teams whether it be balanced or stall, has some good bulk checking a lot of things such as Aegislash, Ttar, Bisharp, and more depending on the spread that is being used. I saw some good arguments on the VR thread, don't remember if it was the old or new one, that went in depth about it. So unless someone can point out that the cons outweigh the pros enough to not move it up I could see it moving to A+.
Haven't seen enough of Victini to have a valid opinion on it but most times when I do see it, it can be kind of annoying to deal with so it's definitely viable in some aspects or another. Same thing with Gliscor basically, but I've seen more of it and from a defensive stand point it does exactly what it needs to do beautifully. I'm all for gliscor moving up as well.
Weavile on the other hand I don't feel should move up. Sure it has great revenge killing aspects, speed, useful priority, etc. but that's about it, and most of the time it can't even pull that off as well as you would hope for. If someone can provide a valid argument for it moving up that would be great. I haven't really seen Weavile ever being useful outside of some niche roles that justifies its current rank.
Haven't seen enough of Victini to have a valid opinion on it but most times when I do see it, it can be kind of annoying to deal with so it's definitely viable in some aspects or another. Same thing with Gliscor basically, but I've seen more of it and from a defensive stand point it does exactly what it needs to do beautifully. I'm all for gliscor moving up as well.
Weavile on the other hand I don't feel should move up. Sure it has great revenge killing aspects, speed, useful priority, etc. but that's about it, and most of the time it can't even pull that off as well as you would hope for. If someone can provide a valid argument for it moving up that would be great. I haven't really seen Weavile ever being useful outside of some niche roles that justifies its current rank.
The problem with Weavile moving up is that it's super easy to check due to its fragility, the lack of resistances to common priority, the low power of its moves outside of Knock Off and the variable Low Kick, and receiving competition from Mamoswine as an Ice Shard user. Offense usually has 1 or 2 things that deal with it without even trying and Stall only cares about Knock Off (and even then Mega Zard X/Mega Venu counter you) and it usually only gets 1 kill before being forced out or just straight up dying.
I definitely support Gliscor for A-
I've seen a sp. def set running about in a lot of higher end matches I've seen, something like eq/roost/taunt/toxic, with special defense investment, and honestly, its not surprising at all to see why one would consider such a set.
I don't know the exact ev spread, but this Gliscor was taking only about 60%~ from an uninvested Rotom-W's Hydro Pump, Roosting it off, and occasionally Toxic'ing a predicted switch in. Not only does it serve as an excellent answer to aegislash as well, we all know gliscor is no slouch on the defensive spectrum, easily taking anything the dangerous Sand Rush Excadrill can dish out.
Not only that, I can imagine this gliscor set taking on bisharp very well, atleast better than lando-t can, and the only real advantages I'm seeing Lando-T bring over this guy is Intimidate! Gliscor has access to everything else Lando-T can do, just at a much lower strength, in exchange for amazing survivability. It's like a defensive team's lando-T that's....even more defensive!!
But damn it doesn't stop there, this sp. def spread can also check Lando-I if its not Cm! You can toxic, sit back, and roost away as it tries in vain to psychic (gotta watch out for the rare hp ice tho :/ ) This is something Lando-T could never do, atleast not as efficiently (AV lando-t is mediocre frens)
With all the great roles this new set seems to cover, a boost in ranking makes sense. Gliscor for A-
I've seen a sp. def set running about in a lot of higher end matches I've seen, something like eq/roost/taunt/toxic, with special defense investment, and honestly, its not surprising at all to see why one would consider such a set.
I don't know the exact ev spread, but this Gliscor was taking only about 60%~ from an uninvested Rotom-W's Hydro Pump, Roosting it off, and occasionally Toxic'ing a predicted switch in. Not only does it serve as an excellent answer to aegislash as well, we all know gliscor is no slouch on the defensive spectrum, easily taking anything the dangerous Sand Rush Excadrill can dish out.
Not only that, I can imagine this gliscor set taking on bisharp very well, atleast better than lando-t can, and the only real advantages I'm seeing Lando-T bring over this guy is Intimidate! Gliscor has access to everything else Lando-T can do, just at a much lower strength, in exchange for amazing survivability. It's like a defensive team's lando-T that's....even more defensive!!
But damn it doesn't stop there, this sp. def spread can also check Lando-I if its not Cm! You can toxic, sit back, and roost away as it tries in vain to psychic (gotta watch out for the rare hp ice tho :/ ) This is something Lando-T could never do, atleast not as efficiently (AV lando-t is mediocre frens)
With all the great roles this new set seems to cover, a boost in ranking makes sense. Gliscor for A-
Jacks0n
formerly grassycow
I am actually really quite annoyed that kyube has dropped. Kyube is an excellent Pokemon because as well as having great offensive pressure and destroying slower bulkier teams, it checks quite a few Pokemon on offence such as thundy w/o focus blast, belly drum azum and mega gyara which are all huge pains for offence. Although the LO set is great, I think the reason this thing should go back to A is its amazing scarf set. Kyube's scarf set is absolutely amazing. With insane attack this thing with full attack investment is KOing offensive Pokemon such as thundy with an outrage, something the like of scarf chomp can't. Its scarf set is so powerful and cleans so well. Also, unlike chomp it can destroy lando t, hippo and gliscor which give scarf chomp a huge annoyance. Scarf kyube literally is one of the best if not the best late game cleaners, with an outrage a lot more powerful than chomps, ice beam to get around things that can switch into its outrage and ridiculous bulk for an offensive Pokemon demands that it should move to A because it actually gives you a lot more reasons to use it over chomp. Its LO set is just the icing on the cake, this thing should defiantly move back to A.
I have elaborated in a previous post why I think gliscor should move up, and its pretty similar to what Srn9130 said. Gliscor has superior bulk than lando t, both specially and physically. Has an amazing ability in toxic heal and awesome recovery in roost. Also, people are starting to realise what a great check it is to lando i and aegi, two of the tiers very top threats. Its sub toxic set is also amazing and does a ton to unprepared teams. Move this thing to A- IMO.
Also keep hippo were it is, A is perfect for it. Hippo is great at what it does, wether its sp.defensive or physically defensive it can check a wide variety of Pokemon. But it has some glaring cons. First of all hippo has 4mms. On most sets slack off and stealth rock are mandatory, leaving u to choose from rock slide, eq, toxic, whirlwind ect. This means that it can't do everything its supposed to do in one set. Another con is that it pretty much needs to be at full health to take on things such as zard y, mega mawile zard x ect. If its not at full health zard y can 2ohko it on the switch in while mega mawile and zard x when boosted can take out a slightly weakened hippo. Overall hippo is really good, but its 4mms and the fact that it needs to be almost full health to check the things its supposed to means it is not at the level of other extremely meta defining pokemon in bisharp, keldeo, mega mawile mega gyara ect.
Lastly, I want to argue one more thing. Lando t to move to A-. Lando t is not as good as it was earlier in the meta. I have three/four arguments to why it should drop. Firstly as a rock layer it loses to skarm, mandi and the lati's, arguably the three most common defoggers in the tier. That alone hampers at its stealth rocking ability because if it can't take out the defoggers or loses to their hits they can defog, heal and attack Lando t and easily come out top or just massacre it with a draco meteor/surf. Another problem lando has is its over reliance on its ability to check physical attacks. Firstly, bisharp. Intimidate becomes a con not a pro against this thing. And bisharp can just massacre it with a knock off because of Lando's pretty mediocre defence w/o intimidate. Also, players with double switches can avoid intimidate and severly dent lando t with their attacks. My next point is its unreliable recovery and severe competition for a bulky ground type with gliscor and hippo. Gliscor and hippo can both invest in sp.defence and still have amazing defence, that is something Lando t can not do. Hippo and gliscor can take on aegi better while gliscor can take on lando i better aswell. Also, using lando t means you can not use lando i, one of the metas best pokemon atm. This isn't to much of a problem but it is a little con. Overall lando t's worse bulk than hippo and gliscor, lack of recovery, its over reliance on its ability and the fact that it looses to most of the common defoggers means it should drop to A-.
- sorry for the long post, just heaps to cover.
I have elaborated in a previous post why I think gliscor should move up, and its pretty similar to what Srn9130 said. Gliscor has superior bulk than lando t, both specially and physically. Has an amazing ability in toxic heal and awesome recovery in roost. Also, people are starting to realise what a great check it is to lando i and aegi, two of the tiers very top threats. Its sub toxic set is also amazing and does a ton to unprepared teams. Move this thing to A- IMO.
Also keep hippo were it is, A is perfect for it. Hippo is great at what it does, wether its sp.defensive or physically defensive it can check a wide variety of Pokemon. But it has some glaring cons. First of all hippo has 4mms. On most sets slack off and stealth rock are mandatory, leaving u to choose from rock slide, eq, toxic, whirlwind ect. This means that it can't do everything its supposed to do in one set. Another con is that it pretty much needs to be at full health to take on things such as zard y, mega mawile zard x ect. If its not at full health zard y can 2ohko it on the switch in while mega mawile and zard x when boosted can take out a slightly weakened hippo. Overall hippo is really good, but its 4mms and the fact that it needs to be almost full health to check the things its supposed to means it is not at the level of other extremely meta defining pokemon in bisharp, keldeo, mega mawile mega gyara ect.
Lastly, I want to argue one more thing. Lando t to move to A-. Lando t is not as good as it was earlier in the meta. I have three/four arguments to why it should drop. Firstly as a rock layer it loses to skarm, mandi and the lati's, arguably the three most common defoggers in the tier. That alone hampers at its stealth rocking ability because if it can't take out the defoggers or loses to their hits they can defog, heal and attack Lando t and easily come out top or just massacre it with a draco meteor/surf. Another problem lando has is its over reliance on its ability to check physical attacks. Firstly, bisharp. Intimidate becomes a con not a pro against this thing. And bisharp can just massacre it with a knock off because of Lando's pretty mediocre defence w/o intimidate. Also, players with double switches can avoid intimidate and severly dent lando t with their attacks. My next point is its unreliable recovery and severe competition for a bulky ground type with gliscor and hippo. Gliscor and hippo can both invest in sp.defence and still have amazing defence, that is something Lando t can not do. Hippo and gliscor can take on aegi better while gliscor can take on lando i better aswell. Also, using lando t means you can not use lando i, one of the metas best pokemon atm. This isn't to much of a problem but it is a little con. Overall lando t's worse bulk than hippo and gliscor, lack of recovery, its over reliance on its ability and the fact that it looses to most of the common defoggers means it should drop to A-.
- sorry for the long post, just heaps to cover.
I completely agree with you on Kyube this thing has no way dropped in viability it's stat spread alone means it can run a revenge killer scarf set, a wallbreaker life orb set or hell even band and a wonderful stallbreaker with the sub set or even a specially defensive set with roost although that's better done by Kyurem-N. A solid A mon IMO
Kyurem-B's awkward speed tier means it needs to run Scarf to be good against offense, but it wants to run Band so it can break Stall. A sub set can theoritcally fuck over both but it still needs Chansey dead before it can wreck Stall and offense breaks the subs quickly (being an Ice-type sucks like that) and force it out/kill it. Being SR weak doesn't help matters.
Jacks0n
formerly grassycow
lol what. The set that does best against both is LO w/ outrage. It doesnt need band because outrage with a little bi of attack investment and LO 2ohko's chansey. It can also check offencive pokemon such as thundy, mega gyara and azum. Scarf also cleans against defencive teams once the steels such as skarm and aegi are gone. Band is probably its worst set IMO.
Regarding Lando-T, it is perhaps the best offensive Mega Mawile checks as an Adamant, max attack Earthquake can KO all variants of it, something that Gliscor cannot do. Let's not forget, Lando-T has been gifted with amazing offensive prowess, and also it is perhaps the best bulky user of EdgeQuake due to its Intimidate and respectable bulk, something Garchomp cannot claim to do. Unlike Hippowdon, it can outspeed most uninvested defensive Pokemon, such as Heatran.
Moreover, its flying type in invaluable as it allows it to switch in to Excadrill and make it harder for choiced users of Earthquake from spamming, and Intimdiate makes it the best check for Terrakion.
I will admit that it is not that bulky, even with Intimidate, but that could be said about much of the metagame too. For instance, it cannot act as a reliable counter to Mega Charizard X since it cannot switch-in to a Flare Blitz (or take a Will-o-Wisp on the bulky variants)
Moreover, its flying type in invaluable as it allows it to switch in to Excadrill and make it harder for choiced users of Earthquake from spamming, and Intimdiate makes it the best check for Terrakion.
I will admit that it is not that bulky, even with Intimidate, but that could be said about much of the metagame too. For instance, it cannot act as a reliable counter to Mega Charizard X since it cannot switch-in to a Flare Blitz (or take a Will-o-Wisp on the bulky variants)
Band 2HKOs Ferrothon after SR with a resisted attack and doesn't cost you HP each turn barring Rocky Helmets.
Who leaves a Chansy in on an Outraging Kyurem-B?
I'm pretty sure a ton of Thundurus run Focus Blast or can just T-Wave you if they don't have it, making your useless for the rest of the match.
Mega Gyarados will be at least +1 when you come in and hits you neutrally with Earthquake. Can't calc it now but I'm pretty sure that plus SR plus LO recoil will leave you at less than 50% (probably less than 30% if you're running a -Def nature, which many mixed sets do) and easily revenged.
Azumarill's not setting up until you're dead or weakened anyway.
Scarf lacks the raw firepower to deal with defensive teams and easily dealt with.
I think Gliscor is more than worthy of A-, since he's pretty unique compared to other physical walls. He has access to Poison Heal, which is such an amazing asset for a defensive Pokemon to have, as it protects the Pokemon from status once Toxic Orb activates and it's twice as effective as Leftovers, which greatly improves longevity. In fact, Poison Heal is the biggest reason why people use Gliscor over other physical walls, and having a great base 95 Speed is something you rarely see on a wall, as it allows Gliscor to outrun and mess with other walls such as Heatran, Mandibuzz, and even Deoxys-D. Plus, Gliscor's support movepool is pretty good, with Taunt taking on stall, Roost combining with Poison Heal to recover 62% of your health each turn, and Stealth Rock for obvious reasons. He can check/counter plenty of top tier OU threats, both offensive and defensive, such as Mega Charizard X, Bisharp, Excadrill, Garchomp, Mega Mawile, Mega Pinsir, Talonflame, support Tyranitar, Dragonite, non-Air Balloon Heatran, Mandibuzz, and quite a few more threats. Honestly, it's a mystery to me as to why Gliscor didn't get a nod to A- sooner.
alexwolf In the VR forum, you said you are making a S+ and S- ranking. Will you be giving implimenting that with the current S rank pokemon already sorted to be clarified through more discussion or leave it blank initiatlly while we sort who could go where.
EDIT: weird didnt tag....ah well.
EDIT: weird didnt tag....ah well.
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Victini - I think the TauntWoW is a poor version of TauntWoW Heatran with the niche of checking Medicham, so it can be considered outclassed to an extent. Choiced sets look much more exciting on paper than in practice. The two sets aren't really too consequential to predict between either. But, it's still a great mon and I can see it moving to B aside from the fact that Torn-T and Suicune are still in B.
I think anyone who has experienced the AV Tornadus-T set knows how useful it is, checking Lando-I, Keldeo, Venusaur, and Aegislash while providing scouting and Knock Off utility.
Crocune is a beast, and an underrated threat. It finds it quite easy to set up for a sweep against almost anything apart from Super Effective STABs, only two, Grass and Electric, for which it can be built around accordingly. It can even stallbreak, beating Chansey and even Water Absorb mons with Pressure.
On Victini moving up, no particular preference, but Tornadus-T and Suicune for B+.
Hippowdon - I'll just refer to a couple of previous posts I made.
Definition of an A+ mon - Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the OU metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be overlooked when compared to their positive traits. So I would have to say Hippowdon should stay in A.
Gliscor - Definitely move up. This, on the other hand, is the only Aegislash switch-in that does not sacrifice momentum while being poison-immune.
Weavile - No comments or opinions.
Also is there a reason regular Gyarados is B+? I don't see how it can be above Tornadus-T, Suicune, and Mega Heracross.
I think anyone who has experienced the AV Tornadus-T set knows how useful it is, checking Lando-I, Keldeo, Venusaur, and Aegislash while providing scouting and Knock Off utility.
Crocune is a beast, and an underrated threat. It finds it quite easy to set up for a sweep against almost anything apart from Super Effective STABs, only two, Grass and Electric, for which it can be built around accordingly. It can even stallbreak, beating Chansey and even Water Absorb mons with Pressure.
On Victini moving up, no particular preference, but Tornadus-T and Suicune for B+.
Hippowdon - I'll just refer to a couple of previous posts I made.
In addition, I had been using SpDef Hippowdon as an Aegislash check well before it became popular, and over time realized that it's not a very good check. It needs to Slack Off the Shadow Ball and by doing so gives the opponent a turn to switch out and keep up the pressure. Something which sacrifices momentum to take a hit can't be considered a very solid check. Hippo also generally needs to always be at nearly max HP to check what it needs to.
Definition of an A+ mon - Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the OU metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be overlooked when compared to their positive traits. So I would have to say Hippowdon should stay in A.
Gliscor - Definitely move up. This, on the other hand, is the only Aegislash switch-in that does not sacrifice momentum while being poison-immune.
Weavile - No comments or opinions.
Also is there a reason regular Gyarados is B+? I don't see how it can be above Tornadus-T, Suicune, and Mega Heracross.
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alexwolf
Not axelwolf
Anyway Gliscor should definitely move up. It has already been mentioned that it's good. Weevils in my opinion though, is too frail and it's stealth rock weak, doing it no favours. It receives competition from Mamoswine as a ice shard user. Two mostly useless abilities dot help it either.
I agree, it is hell for sand teams which have become quite popular. My new team has peaked around 1850 and is very hard pressed to deal with it if it subs, especially if excadrill's air balloon has been popped.
Don't forget knock off as it cripples almost anything but megas, you think you'll use your thundy-I to taunt it and suddenly you lose your LO on the switch which means it suddenly doesn't check as many things. Stab EQ is perfect for M-Mawile and CharX.
Basically, gliscor checks a lot of win conditions in the meta right now and even would be checks or counter can hardly deal with it behind a sub. Note that even things that outspeed and ohko like greninja cannot get past it if it has a sub as it will be stalled and rack up LO damage. It will always force mind games.
Gliscor should definitely move up.
I'm not sure about Kyu-B. While I do agree it's not as great as it was in the beginning of the gen, the scarf set is incredibly scary, cleaning teams really well. Probably even more than Garchomp, which also sucks against stall, except for the Swords Dance set which almost no one uses because it's kind of slow. So I'm seeing two pokemon with similar problems here, and Garchomp is A+.
Of course, Kyu-B is not the same as Garchomp, because it trades good typing, not having a SR weakness, ands a good speed tier for its extra Atk and SpAtk. But its sets function the same way, and what is good about is how its unpredictability works for it. A Kyu-B behind a Substitute is one of the scariest things an offensive team can face, and yet, if you try to predict a sub and attack, you may fall prey to the scarf set. It has a lot of sets which are amazing, and while they are all hard countered by specific things, almost nothing counters them all.
Of course, Kyu-B is not the same as Garchomp, because it trades good typing, not having a SR weakness, ands a good speed tier for its extra Atk and SpAtk. But its sets function the same way, and what is good about is how its unpredictability works for it. A Kyu-B behind a Substitute is one of the scariest things an offensive team can face, and yet, if you try to predict a sub and attack, you may fall prey to the scarf set. It has a lot of sets which are amazing, and while they are all hard countered by specific things, almost nothing counters them all.
Actually I was the one who posted that. I will let the S+ and S- take action once people nominate for those respective tiers. Right now what I am thinking is:
Aegislash - S+
Deoxys-Defense - S+
Deoxys-Speed - S+
Charizard X - S-
Landorus- S-
Thundurus - S-
Start discussing why or why not you agree or disagree. Like every other discussion please post intelligently and make sure you are knowledgeable enough about the topic to actually contribute. Thanks
honestly, i feel that you can put zard x in "S+" and leave landorus-i and thundurus-i in S-
zard x, like aegislash, is a very versatile pokemon. such so, that, when the metagame adapted to it, it instead adapted to the metagame changing it's EV spread and the moveset (like aegislash has). landorus-I and thundurus-I, while very good pokes, just don't feel to be as threatening as aegislash and zard x. i see specially defensive gliscor rising to help stop non-HP Ice landorus-I among other things but zard x and aegislash just keep changing and still fuck shit up.
landorus-I and thundurus-I feel closer with mega mawile (who should also be S tier at least) and a separation feels more at home with how different they are as a threat from aegislash and zard x
zard x, like aegislash, is a very versatile pokemon. such so, that, when the metagame adapted to it, it instead adapted to the metagame changing it's EV spread and the moveset (like aegislash has). landorus-I and thundurus-I, while very good pokes, just don't feel to be as threatening as aegislash and zard x. i see specially defensive gliscor rising to help stop non-HP Ice landorus-I among other things but zard x and aegislash just keep changing and still fuck shit up.
landorus-I and thundurus-I feel closer with mega mawile (who should also be S tier at least) and a separation feels more at home with how different they are as a threat from aegislash and zard x
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