I agree with Scolipede for A+ - it might not be, on paper, as good as Talonflame, but in practice it works out as well if not better thanks to Talonflame being such a known quantity at this point that the environment is a little overprepared for it, while Scoli's sets and strategy aren't that popular.
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)
- Thread starter alexwolf
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Alomomola not better than Vaporeon. I think that Vaporeon is better than Alomomola. Because:
Vaporeon is using Scald on a Pokemon with 257 Special Attack (with only 4 EVs, it can have more). Alomola is usign Scald with only 117 Special Attack, which is ridiculously low.
Alomomola can't 3HKO Offensive Heatran with Scald (and with Leftovers, it can't even 4HKO it). Vaporeon 2HKO Offensive Heatran and has a chance of 3HKO Specially Defensive Heatran.
We have going to return to the past, to the Gen IV Metagame (you know why I'm referring to a past gen). Scald didn't exist, but a move named Body Slam already exists. By that time, there were two pokemon with Body Slam, whose names are "Snorlax" and "Togekiss", both of them being Normal types.
Snorlax Body Slam has the standard rate of paralysis of 30%. At least half of the Snorlax used that move.
Togekiss Body Slam has a paralysis rate of 60%, thanks to Serene Grace. however, only very few of the Togekiss were running that move back then and the majority of them run Thunder Wave.
Togekiss's Body Slam (with Negative nature) was more powerful in Gen IV than right now is Alomomola's Scald.
Why back then Togekiss' users didn't used a 60% paralysis move and now people are using a 30% burn move?
In DPP paralysis stopped a bigger part of the metagame than burn stop right now. For many special attacker, burn is only 12,5% less health of a turn, which is way less than losing 75% of the speed and having only a 75% chance of attack (ith burn the chance is 100%).
In other words, Vaporeon has, with the same EVs spread, a little offensive presence when using Scald.
Vaporeon has Wish, has Heal Bell, and has two things that Almomola has not. Baton Pass (useful for Wish and 121 HP substitutes) and Roar. And although the tweo had Ice Beam, Vaporeon's Ice Beam could have the niche of defeating Dragons, unlike Alomomola.
Alomomola's HP may be a bit higher, but Vaporeon's Wishes are not small, and Vaporeon offers a little offensive presence and moves like Baton pass and Roar (who are the niches that he has compared to things like Slowbro, Suicune, or ven some offensive things that also use Scald like Mega Blastoise, Keldeo, etc), And, great specially defensive features.
I think that Vaporeon has to be in Alomomola's rank (C-) and Alomomola should be D or unranked.
======================
About Quagsire. Quagsire is in no way A-. For one reasons:
Quagsire is only viable on stall teams. And only has the huge niche of stopping set up sweepers. For other pokemon, there are better pokemon to deal with it.
Chansey, although is a stall pokemon, can be used in balance teams because, for use Chansey, you only need a physical wall Steel type and the rest of the team could be more offensive.
Vaporeon is using Scald on a Pokemon with 257 Special Attack (with only 4 EVs, it can have more). Alomola is usign Scald with only 117 Special Attack, which is ridiculously low.
Alomomola can't 3HKO Offensive Heatran with Scald (and with Leftovers, it can't even 4HKO it). Vaporeon 2HKO Offensive Heatran and has a chance of 3HKO Specially Defensive Heatran.
We have going to return to the past, to the Gen IV Metagame (you know why I'm referring to a past gen). Scald didn't exist, but a move named Body Slam already exists. By that time, there were two pokemon with Body Slam, whose names are "Snorlax" and "Togekiss", both of them being Normal types.
Snorlax Body Slam has the standard rate of paralysis of 30%. At least half of the Snorlax used that move.
Togekiss Body Slam has a paralysis rate of 60%, thanks to Serene Grace. however, only very few of the Togekiss were running that move back then and the majority of them run Thunder Wave.
Togekiss's Body Slam (with Negative nature) was more powerful in Gen IV than right now is Alomomola's Scald.
Why back then Togekiss' users didn't used a 60% paralysis move and now people are using a 30% burn move?
In DPP paralysis stopped a bigger part of the metagame than burn stop right now. For many special attacker, burn is only 12,5% less health of a turn, which is way less than losing 75% of the speed and having only a 75% chance of attack (ith burn the chance is 100%).
In other words, Vaporeon has, with the same EVs spread, a little offensive presence when using Scald.
Vaporeon has Wish, has Heal Bell, and has two things that Almomola has not. Baton Pass (useful for Wish and 121 HP substitutes) and Roar. And although the tweo had Ice Beam, Vaporeon's Ice Beam could have the niche of defeating Dragons, unlike Alomomola.
Alomomola's HP may be a bit higher, but Vaporeon's Wishes are not small, and Vaporeon offers a little offensive presence and moves like Baton pass and Roar (who are the niches that he has compared to things like Slowbro, Suicune, or ven some offensive things that also use Scald like Mega Blastoise, Keldeo, etc), And, great specially defensive features.
I think that Vaporeon has to be in Alomomola's rank (C-) and Alomomola should be D or unranked.
======================
About Quagsire. Quagsire is in no way A-. For one reasons:
Quagsire is only viable on stall teams. And only has the huge niche of stopping set up sweepers. For other pokemon, there are better pokemon to deal with it.
Chansey, although is a stall pokemon, can be used in balance teams because, for use Chansey, you only need a physical wall Steel type and the rest of the team could be more offensive.
You're sorta ignoring Alomomola's amazing ability as the only decent pokemon that can heal itself as it wish passes. Which is a pretty amazing niche because then you can spend less time worrying about if your cleric is going to die or not.
Vaporeon should be ranked but only for its niche on baton pass right now.
Vaporeon should be ranked but only for its niche on baton pass right now.
Run double attack. It's the best option for it, as seeds/hammer arm are required, sub/shield take up your third slot and you should run a coverage (EQ for Aegi, rock coverage for TF/Pinsir and other rock weaks). With shadow claw and behind a sub, it can do serious damage to latis and aegi but forces a prediction contest with Aegi. Chesnaught is probably the most underrated defensive pokemon currently, probably because people haven't invested time to check his possible sets. With subs, the only thing he absolutely cannot get past is fairies... And behind a sub, he's still viscous to max HP mawile.
4 Atk Chesnaught Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 126-150 (41.4 - 49.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
That's good enough to really help stall get rid of mawile, and believe me, mawile will come in on Chesnaught on his sub turn.
I like this idea. Quagsire is such a prevalent mon on stall and its for good reason. To break through it physically, you need absolute monsters like mega medicham, mega heracross, mega mawile, or other banded mons. It's pretty damn difficult to break through this guy without huge power or a choice band, and you basically need either mold breaker, a grass move, or a special attacker otherwise. but not every special attacker works either! In fact, quagsire walls practically any electric type not carrying hp grass (or gknot in thundurus's case), and grass moves are rare on electric mons.
It's used on basically every stall team and even some balance teams, and that speaks volumes about just how valuable this guy is to a team.
It's a failsafe fuck you to practically any physical sweeper there is, whats not to love about that? A- plz
I'm really surprised that Scolipede for A+ was brought up. There's really no way it belongs higher than B+. Scolipede quickpass is overshadowed by Venomoth QuiverPass and Gorebyss/Smeargle SmashPass, in the first place. The issue is that Scolipede simply requires too much time to get ready and the sweepers don't have offensive boosts when they come in so they're underwhelming. If it doesn't have Iron Defense it just gets killed setting up, so SD is really out of the picture. The other thing is its presence in higher-level play. I've actually seen people use different versions of Quickpass before, but NONE of them had Scolipede, usually Moth/Smeargle/Gorebyss and for a reason. WebBowser's team that I faced like 10 times with different teams, I literally never lost to because Scoli quickpass really just isn't /that/ good. Scolipede is exclusively used for its LO offensive set, which is good but fine where it is. To the point where it's been suggested by Dice to remove the BP set from the analysis. There's its role on 3-mon chains which are rare on ladder and have literally 0 tournament usage. Whether you'll put that to a mentality is irrelevant; 3-mon chains are and will probably never be seen at a high level of play. Scolipede has no overall metagame presence even compared to the A- Pokemon. How can you compare it to Mamoswine, or Chansey, or Skarmory? You can't, these Pokemon are so much more defining and present in the metagame.
Mamoswine is a solidly anti-meta Pokemon right now in general, threatening so many top threats including Thundurus, Aegi, Mawile, and more while LO is damn powerful and Sash is a good SR lead. Chansey is one of the primary things holding a lot of stall teams together. It's not really a balance mon like some people are saying but it provides a remarkably consistent wall and supporter. Skarmory is stall's primary physical wall that handles all sorts of stuff like Mega Pinsir, Mega Gyarados, Bisharp, etc. and Defogs while having stuff like Taunt to help vs other stall, Counter to smash physical attackers, WW to phaze out boosters, SR for support, Toxic, Spikes, BB... Breloom is a solid lead that at least ensures damaged mon + sleeping mon in most cases and if you play smart has a role throughout the match where it is extremely threatening, though slightly matchup reliant bc Venu and Amoon shut it down, and Icicle Spear Jolly Mamo easily stops it in its tracks. However, a well-played Breloom in a lot of matchups is threatening and difficult to deal with especially combined with HW and keeps threats like sand Exca, Mega TTar, and evo'd Mega Gyara in check. Kyurem-B is a versatile and threatening wallbreaker. Sash Diggersby is one of the most threatening Pokemon to offensive teams in the tier and can tear apart defensive teams depending on team structure/overloading Skarm, and LO just annihilates non-Counter Skarm which isn't even that hard to circumvent for it. Gliscor is an incredibly solid defensive mon with two sets, SubToxic and SDef stall breaker that have two really strong roles and are generally a pain in the ass to deal with. Scolipede is not on the level of these mons, not at all.
I disagree with Quag for A- because it's really limited and honestly not /that/ difficult to break. Stuff like Mega Venu, MG SP Clefable, Landorus, Breloom, Deoxys-S, Thundurus (Focus Blast 2HKOes...), Greninja, Keldeo, and the Latis are everywhere and can take advantage of it to varying degrees. It's incredibly passive as it's forced to use Recover on almost every switch-in which gives a lot of free swaps. It's a solid counter to Mega Scizor, Mega TTar, and Zard X, among some other things, but even far from impossible to break physically like with Megados, which ignores Unaware plus can set up on it with SubDD in its normal form. It's even fodder for Gliscor just because its Scalds do like nothing. And LO Bisharp has a 30% chance to break it because Knock Off + Iron Head flinch + Knock Off = dead Quagsire. It's not as consistent/universally good as Skarmory or Chansey, other (primarily) stallmons that are really on an entirely different level from it.
Chesnaught is really fine in B. The best set Leech Seed / Spiky Shield / Hammer Arm / Spikes (SubSeed is trash) is underrated to some extent but Chesnaught isn't really that amazing in the first place. It walls a certain selection of threats but loses to multiple variants of Aegislash the main thing for it to check, plus is fodder for Gliscor, cockblocked by offensive Venu, annihilated by Mawile, setup fodder for CM Clefable...I plainly can't see it with the likes of Zapdos, Slowbro, or Quagsire which are more solid defensive mons overall, with more utility and/or relevance in the metagame overall.
Mola is better put in C+ or /maybe/ B-. Some of the C+ mons will rarely if ever see tourney usage, like Thund-T, Pedo, and Starmie, while Mola has already seen a bunch of uses this WCOP. I don't think it's unreasonable to say that it's better than most of the Pokemon in C+, and perhaps comparable to the B- mons. Not sure about that, but it at least needs to go up one tier.
Cress is too far down imo, I think C Rank would be better for it. It actually walls quite a few threats, primarily Landorus, but also stuff like Kyu-B, Thundurus, and Deo-S. It is fodder for Bisharp, sorta, but it can Reflect on that switch-in and come back in at another point. Obviously it's a Pokemon with flaws but Cress is a bitch to break and I've seen it used successfully, most notably by WECAMEASROMANS in WCOP where he won fairly handily with a Cresselia stall. It is definitely more comparable to the C mons, most of which are utter shit, while Cress actually as a niche in the OU tier.
Actually I could see the C Ranks reorganized a bit in general, some stuff to think about.
C+
---
Mega Aggron
Mega Blastoise
Alakazam
Ditto
Haxorus
Hydreigon
Infernape
Klefki
Krookodile
Rotom-H
Sableye
Shuckle
Smeargle
Togekiss
Volcarona
Alomomola (up from C)
Goodra (up from C)
Venomoth (up from C)
Already explained Mola. Goodra because its Assault Vest set is decent, has even seen some WCOP usage bc can sponge hits from the likes of Thundurus, Mega Charizard Y, and Aegislash while having a good coverage selection to boot. Venomoth moves up because QuiverPass is definitely lethal and Venomoth is the only thing that can do that competently, over Gorebyss it gives you freedom to run another Water whereas Gorebyss takes up that slot, most notably Keldeo.
C
---
Blissey
Chandelure
Gardevoir
Gourgeist-Small
Magnezone
Omastar
Porygon2
Tangrowth
Cresselia (up from C-)
Celebi (up from C-)
Mantine (up from C-)
Starmie (down from C+)
Already explained Cress. Celebi is actually pretty decent rn. I tried t at the recommendation of ben gay and have seen other people trying out different stuff, it's an okay mon. Can BP out of Pursuit and is a good Lando/Keldeo/Breloom check which is always appreciated. Other bulky Grasses can take the latter two but not the first (yes Celebi beats Knock Off Lando) plus Celebi has a bunch of unique supporting options like SR, Heal Bell, and TWave plus Natural Cure to be probably the best Rotom-W check in the tier vs Mega Venu and even Amoon which actually mind burn a decent amount. Offensive sets aren't bad either, as it has good STABs plus Earth Power to hit Aegi and options like HP Fire if you want. It's definitely better than Arcanine which is basically just a Mawile counter (overexaggerating but you get the point) and Gastrodon which is niche as hell and super specialized. Nog has already explained Mantine better than I ever could, and I imagine he would support moving it up to C. Starmie moves down simply because I don't think it's at the level of the C+ mons. Mega Blastoise is a better spinner that isn't shit on by Aegi, primarily, so I think putting them in the same rank is a mistake.
C-
--
Arcanine
Exploud
Gastrodon
Gorebyss
Hawlucha
Kyurem
Ludicolo
Roserade
Slowking
Dugtrio (down from C)
Umbreon (down from C)
Sharpedo (down from C+)
Thundurus-T (down from C+)
Moltres (up from D)
Dugtrio moves down because it's super specialized and rarely if ever worth using. Trapping Heatran and TTar is basically all it does besides finish off some random weakened stuff and Raikou. That's not enough even with SR to be worth using, it can't dismantle defensive cores and super specialize itself like Goth can. Goth is in B, not C, but Goth really eliminates most of the reason to use Dugtrio by breaking stuff like Ferrothorn, Skarmory, etc. I know TFL has used it to trap SR mons that Skarm can't beat but in all honesty his team isn't that good and that's one use case. Having personally used Dugtrio because of the OUTC I can attest to the fact that it's pretty bad and should be moved down. Umbreon is outclassed and bad, the best set Wish / Protect / Foul Play / Heal Bell is fodder for literally every Fighting- and Dark-type as well as defensive Pokemon in the tier and it's honestly not even that hard to break offensively. I guess it's an Aegi check but it doesn't like Toxic despite Heal Bell which has limited PP and as a Wish Passer I'd rather use Vaporeon (note: Vaporeon is horrible, that's an insult to Umbreon). It's kind of useful sometimes but is way too overshadowed. Sharpedo is pretty bad, it has DBond + Speed Boost which is cool and it hits pretty hard, but it's easily walled by common physically defensive Pokemon and things like Keldeo and Azumarill. Plus it's contending with Scolipede. OU is too bulky for it to really be good, it's usable but not belonging with at least some of the stuff in C Rank that are at least pretty good. There's almost no reason to use Thundurus-T when Thundurus-I exists. Pretty simple. Moltres should move up because it can actually do stuff more so than the D Pokemon, like handle Mawile alright and Pressure stall with SubToxic + Roost + Flamethrower to roast Steels.
D
---
Mega Abomasnow
Cloyster
Cofagrigus
Empoleon -> Unranked
Froslass
Meloetta
Snorlax
Jirachi (down from C-)
Reuniclus (down from C-)
Toxicroak (down from C-)
Wobbuffet (down from C)
Mega Houndoom (down from C)
Mega Banette (down from C)
All of these Pokemon I moved down are borderline unusable in the OU tier and really should not be among some Pokemon that are at least decent. I've already written enough so just inquire if you disagree.
I might post more about this later but this is a start, the C Ranks are sort of a mess.
Mamoswine is a solidly anti-meta Pokemon right now in general, threatening so many top threats including Thundurus, Aegi, Mawile, and more while LO is damn powerful and Sash is a good SR lead. Chansey is one of the primary things holding a lot of stall teams together. It's not really a balance mon like some people are saying but it provides a remarkably consistent wall and supporter. Skarmory is stall's primary physical wall that handles all sorts of stuff like Mega Pinsir, Mega Gyarados, Bisharp, etc. and Defogs while having stuff like Taunt to help vs other stall, Counter to smash physical attackers, WW to phaze out boosters, SR for support, Toxic, Spikes, BB... Breloom is a solid lead that at least ensures damaged mon + sleeping mon in most cases and if you play smart has a role throughout the match where it is extremely threatening, though slightly matchup reliant bc Venu and Amoon shut it down, and Icicle Spear Jolly Mamo easily stops it in its tracks. However, a well-played Breloom in a lot of matchups is threatening and difficult to deal with especially combined with HW and keeps threats like sand Exca, Mega TTar, and evo'd Mega Gyara in check. Kyurem-B is a versatile and threatening wallbreaker. Sash Diggersby is one of the most threatening Pokemon to offensive teams in the tier and can tear apart defensive teams depending on team structure/overloading Skarm, and LO just annihilates non-Counter Skarm which isn't even that hard to circumvent for it. Gliscor is an incredibly solid defensive mon with two sets, SubToxic and SDef stall breaker that have two really strong roles and are generally a pain in the ass to deal with. Scolipede is not on the level of these mons, not at all.
I disagree with Quag for A- because it's really limited and honestly not /that/ difficult to break. Stuff like Mega Venu, MG SP Clefable, Landorus, Breloom, Deoxys-S, Thundurus (Focus Blast 2HKOes...), Greninja, Keldeo, and the Latis are everywhere and can take advantage of it to varying degrees. It's incredibly passive as it's forced to use Recover on almost every switch-in which gives a lot of free swaps. It's a solid counter to Mega Scizor, Mega TTar, and Zard X, among some other things, but even far from impossible to break physically like with Megados, which ignores Unaware plus can set up on it with SubDD in its normal form. It's even fodder for Gliscor just because its Scalds do like nothing. And LO Bisharp has a 30% chance to break it because Knock Off + Iron Head flinch + Knock Off = dead Quagsire. It's not as consistent/universally good as Skarmory or Chansey, other (primarily) stallmons that are really on an entirely different level from it.
Chesnaught is really fine in B. The best set Leech Seed / Spiky Shield / Hammer Arm / Spikes (SubSeed is trash) is underrated to some extent but Chesnaught isn't really that amazing in the first place. It walls a certain selection of threats but loses to multiple variants of Aegislash the main thing for it to check, plus is fodder for Gliscor, cockblocked by offensive Venu, annihilated by Mawile, setup fodder for CM Clefable...I plainly can't see it with the likes of Zapdos, Slowbro, or Quagsire which are more solid defensive mons overall, with more utility and/or relevance in the metagame overall.
Mola is better put in C+ or /maybe/ B-. Some of the C+ mons will rarely if ever see tourney usage, like Thund-T, Pedo, and Starmie, while Mola has already seen a bunch of uses this WCOP. I don't think it's unreasonable to say that it's better than most of the Pokemon in C+, and perhaps comparable to the B- mons. Not sure about that, but it at least needs to go up one tier.
Cress is too far down imo, I think C Rank would be better for it. It actually walls quite a few threats, primarily Landorus, but also stuff like Kyu-B, Thundurus, and Deo-S. It is fodder for Bisharp, sorta, but it can Reflect on that switch-in and come back in at another point. Obviously it's a Pokemon with flaws but Cress is a bitch to break and I've seen it used successfully, most notably by WECAMEASROMANS in WCOP where he won fairly handily with a Cresselia stall. It is definitely more comparable to the C mons, most of which are utter shit, while Cress actually as a niche in the OU tier.
Actually I could see the C Ranks reorganized a bit in general, some stuff to think about.
C+
---
Mega Aggron
Mega Blastoise
Alakazam
Ditto
Haxorus
Hydreigon
Infernape
Klefki
Krookodile
Rotom-H
Sableye
Shuckle
Smeargle
Togekiss
Volcarona
Alomomola (up from C)
Goodra (up from C)
Venomoth (up from C)
Already explained Mola. Goodra because its Assault Vest set is decent, has even seen some WCOP usage bc can sponge hits from the likes of Thundurus, Mega Charizard Y, and Aegislash while having a good coverage selection to boot. Venomoth moves up because QuiverPass is definitely lethal and Venomoth is the only thing that can do that competently, over Gorebyss it gives you freedom to run another Water whereas Gorebyss takes up that slot, most notably Keldeo.
C
---
Blissey
Chandelure
Gardevoir
Gourgeist-Small
Magnezone
Omastar
Porygon2
Tangrowth
Cresselia (up from C-)
Celebi (up from C-)
Mantine (up from C-)
Starmie (down from C+)
Already explained Cress. Celebi is actually pretty decent rn. I tried t at the recommendation of ben gay and have seen other people trying out different stuff, it's an okay mon. Can BP out of Pursuit and is a good Lando/Keldeo/Breloom check which is always appreciated. Other bulky Grasses can take the latter two but not the first (yes Celebi beats Knock Off Lando) plus Celebi has a bunch of unique supporting options like SR, Heal Bell, and TWave plus Natural Cure to be probably the best Rotom-W check in the tier vs Mega Venu and even Amoon which actually mind burn a decent amount. Offensive sets aren't bad either, as it has good STABs plus Earth Power to hit Aegi and options like HP Fire if you want. It's definitely better than Arcanine which is basically just a Mawile counter (overexaggerating but you get the point) and Gastrodon which is niche as hell and super specialized. Nog has already explained Mantine better than I ever could, and I imagine he would support moving it up to C. Starmie moves down simply because I don't think it's at the level of the C+ mons. Mega Blastoise is a better spinner that isn't shit on by Aegi, primarily, so I think putting them in the same rank is a mistake.
C-
--
Arcanine
Exploud
Gastrodon
Gorebyss
Hawlucha
Kyurem
Ludicolo
Roserade
Slowking
Dugtrio (down from C)
Umbreon (down from C)
Sharpedo (down from C+)
Thundurus-T (down from C+)
Moltres (up from D)
Dugtrio moves down because it's super specialized and rarely if ever worth using. Trapping Heatran and TTar is basically all it does besides finish off some random weakened stuff and Raikou. That's not enough even with SR to be worth using, it can't dismantle defensive cores and super specialize itself like Goth can. Goth is in B, not C, but Goth really eliminates most of the reason to use Dugtrio by breaking stuff like Ferrothorn, Skarmory, etc. I know TFL has used it to trap SR mons that Skarm can't beat but in all honesty his team isn't that good and that's one use case. Having personally used Dugtrio because of the OUTC I can attest to the fact that it's pretty bad and should be moved down. Umbreon is outclassed and bad, the best set Wish / Protect / Foul Play / Heal Bell is fodder for literally every Fighting- and Dark-type as well as defensive Pokemon in the tier and it's honestly not even that hard to break offensively. I guess it's an Aegi check but it doesn't like Toxic despite Heal Bell which has limited PP and as a Wish Passer I'd rather use Vaporeon (note: Vaporeon is horrible, that's an insult to Umbreon). It's kind of useful sometimes but is way too overshadowed. Sharpedo is pretty bad, it has DBond + Speed Boost which is cool and it hits pretty hard, but it's easily walled by common physically defensive Pokemon and things like Keldeo and Azumarill. Plus it's contending with Scolipede. OU is too bulky for it to really be good, it's usable but not belonging with at least some of the stuff in C Rank that are at least pretty good. There's almost no reason to use Thundurus-T when Thundurus-I exists. Pretty simple. Moltres should move up because it can actually do stuff more so than the D Pokemon, like handle Mawile alright and Pressure stall with SubToxic + Roost + Flamethrower to roast Steels.
D
---
Mega Abomasnow
Cloyster
Cofagrigus
Empoleon -> Unranked
Froslass
Meloetta
Snorlax
Jirachi (down from C-)
Reuniclus (down from C-)
Toxicroak (down from C-)
Wobbuffet (down from C)
Mega Houndoom (down from C)
Mega Banette (down from C)
All of these Pokemon I moved down are borderline unusable in the OU tier and really should not be among some Pokemon that are at least decent. I've already written enough so just inquire if you disagree.
I might post more about this later but this is a start, the C Ranks are sort of a mess.
I mostly agree with Jukain in regards to the C Ranks being cleaned up but I have a few slight changes, especially when we have to think that C- Rank is basically Pokemon with one small niche:
Mega Banette doesn't see much use but it's actually quite a good Pokemon in my experience; it is the best revenge killer in the entire game by virtue of its ability to revenge kill any sweeper regardless of how many boosts it has setup. It also has a recognisable offensive presence and is not total dead weight against stall thanks to Taunt. In general, Taunt + Destiny Bond is a great combination. However, it takes up a mega slot for an inconsistent role, but I still think its niche is definable enough to keep it out of C-. Don't give me any of that "it loses a turn to Mega evolve" because the best Mega Banette set has Protect anyway/
Wobbuffet is also C- for me, it generally traps less stuff than Gothitelle and is worse at dismantling defensive cores, but it fares better against hard hitting offensive Pokemon that can threaten a sweep of a teammate in some manner, an example being Keldeo, which Wobbuffet can switch into, Gothitelle obviously can't. Also, Sitrus Berry Wobbuffet is much better than Leftovers imo, it helps more in the short-term. Jukain agrees with me on this.
Empoleon can stay in D rank instead of being completely unranked, as it is a decent check to Greninja on offensive teams, where it runs Modest and still hits very hard, but its unique typing allows it to check Greninja, however, it is very similar to Azumarill in doing this, but its typing is a difference, as is its special attacking nature. Jukain agrees with this also.
I also think Froslass should move up when the Deoxys formes get banned but I don't know where nor do I think this should be done immediately.
I can /potentially/ see Mega Houndoom in C-, it has a nice Speed tier above the likes of Keldeo and Latios and the Nasty Plot set has quite few counters after it sets up, and a fast Destiny Bond is always helpful. The Sunny Day set is pretty bad but it can be quite threatening if it manages to setup (which is a big problem with Houndoom, setting up).
I think Exploud could be C, unlike the Pokemon in C- that have one small niche that is generally ineffective, Exploud can be extremely threatening with just the support of Sticky Web, Trick Room, paralysis support, what have you. Everyone knows the nuke that is Boomburst and how devastatingly powerful it gets, especially since it hits Ghost-types and hits through Substitute.
n_n
Mega Banette doesn't see much use but it's actually quite a good Pokemon in my experience; it is the best revenge killer in the entire game by virtue of its ability to revenge kill any sweeper regardless of how many boosts it has setup. It also has a recognisable offensive presence and is not total dead weight against stall thanks to Taunt. In general, Taunt + Destiny Bond is a great combination. However, it takes up a mega slot for an inconsistent role, but I still think its niche is definable enough to keep it out of C-. Don't give me any of that "it loses a turn to Mega evolve" because the best Mega Banette set has Protect anyway/
Wobbuffet is also C- for me, it generally traps less stuff than Gothitelle and is worse at dismantling defensive cores, but it fares better against hard hitting offensive Pokemon that can threaten a sweep of a teammate in some manner, an example being Keldeo, which Wobbuffet can switch into, Gothitelle obviously can't. Also, Sitrus Berry Wobbuffet is much better than Leftovers imo, it helps more in the short-term. Jukain agrees with me on this.
Empoleon can stay in D rank instead of being completely unranked, as it is a decent check to Greninja on offensive teams, where it runs Modest and still hits very hard, but its unique typing allows it to check Greninja, however, it is very similar to Azumarill in doing this, but its typing is a difference, as is its special attacking nature. Jukain agrees with this also.
I also think Froslass should move up when the Deoxys formes get banned but I don't know where nor do I think this should be done immediately.
I can /potentially/ see Mega Houndoom in C-, it has a nice Speed tier above the likes of Keldeo and Latios and the Nasty Plot set has quite few counters after it sets up, and a fast Destiny Bond is always helpful. The Sunny Day set is pretty bad but it can be quite threatening if it manages to setup (which is a big problem with Houndoom, setting up).
I think Exploud could be C, unlike the Pokemon in C- that have one small niche that is generally ineffective, Exploud can be extremely threatening with just the support of Sticky Web, Trick Room, paralysis support, what have you. Everyone knows the nuke that is Boomburst and how devastatingly powerful it gets, especially since it hits Ghost-types and hits through Substitute.
n_n
Can we please avoid moving Mantine up at all right now? It literally just got added to C-, and I'm not even sure it deserves that much. Seriously, what reasons are there to use this thing? I mean real, solid reasons to put it on a team. All I've heard is that it Defogs and can wall Keldeo, Landorus, and Mega Charizard Y, but it doesn't even do those jobs all that well. It's a subpar Defogger because it's weak to the single most common hazard in the game and has no reliable recovery to make up for it (unlike literally every other Defogger in the metagame), and I've already demonstrated in the OU analysis index thread that it has problems with certain Keldeo and Landorus sets depending on the set Mantine runs. Heck, what set does it even run? It's been nearly two weeks since I first started questioning this thing's viability in the index thread and I still have no idea what set it is that people are running and are finding to work. There's still so many questions I have about this thing. What solid reason is there to put it on a team? What does it really add to a team defensively that Chansey doesn't already cover? What sets are people even running?
I want to know where the in-depth reasoning, statistics and calculations, replays against good players, etc. are. These things used to be required to add a new Pokemon to the ranks, and I haven't seen much of them at all. I'm willing to be open to something like Mantine, but all I have to work with is a short description of how Mantine functions without any real evidence as to why it's really worth it, and now there's a suggestion to move it up another rank? I think we need to slow down and really look at this thing before bumping it up any further.
I want to know where the in-depth reasoning, statistics and calculations, replays against good players, etc. are. These things used to be required to add a new Pokemon to the ranks, and I haven't seen much of them at all. I'm willing to be open to something like Mantine, but all I have to work with is a short description of how Mantine functions without any real evidence as to why it's really worth it, and now there's a suggestion to move it up another rank? I think we need to slow down and really look at this thing before bumping it up any further.
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Mantine is not moving higher than C-. Yeah, Defog and Water Absorb are nice things Mantine has over Gyarados, but they are not nearly enough to make it anything else than an extremely niche and almost always outclassed Pokemon.
And thx Jukain and TRC about the help with C rank, i was planning on fixing it a bit but i first wanted to make the upper tiers as solid as possible. Your suggestions will be taken in mind and lots of them will be implemented on the next update.
Here are some things i don't agree with:
Alomomola going to B-. Alomomola is one of the easiest Pokemon to take advantage of, and this cannot be undersated. When Taunt + Toxic Heatran can beat a bulky Water one on one, you know that this thing can't do any immediate damage even to frail Pokemon. Most set up sweepers and set up Pokemon in general can set up on Alomomola and threaten it and it's whole team. SubToxic Aegislash, CM Landorus, NP Thundurus, BD Azumarill, SD Bisharp, CM Magic Guard Clefable, SD Excadrill, SD Lum Berry Garchomp, DD Lum Berry Dragonite, SubDD Mega Gyarados, CM Keldeo, SD Mega Pinsir, SD Talonflame and Taunt BU Talonflame, SubWoWTaunt Gengar, SD Terrakion, SD Diggersby, and Tail Glow Manaphy can all take advantage of Alomomola and its lack of offensive presence to set up and OHKO it, or create Subs that it can't break and slowly kill it. The best that Alomomola can do against some of them is use Scald if they are physical attackers and hope that it burns, which is a laughable way of preventing set up and doesn't prevent it at all usually. And those are set up sweepers only out of S and A ranks. Alomomola is set up on by almost every single relevant set up sweeper in OU, which alone is a significant detriment to its viability and is reason enough to never let it go beyond B- rank. Alomomola needs tons of support to cover all those Pokemon that can take advantage of it and make sure it's not a liability to your team, which is why it won't get ranked any higher than C+.
Starmie to C. Starmie is still a great choice on some teams in this hazards-riddled metagame, and is a great weapon against DeoSharp teams. If you pair it with Pursuit Bisharp, Aegislash is rarely an issue (it can still be if it predicts the Bisharp switch in correctly, but Aegi will be hard pressured and be very easy to take advantage in general). In the meanwhile, it has excellent offensive prowess, not unlike Greninja, but unlike Greninja it fails to outspeed some notable threats, namely Tornadus-T and Scarf Tyranitar, and is weak to Pursuit, making it easier to get rid of. However, it makes up for being Pursuit weak and being slower than Greninja with its Analytic-boosted hits and Rapid Spin. Starmie is an excellent option on any offensive team that relies on entry hazards to check dangerous threats or to execute its gameplan (Deo-D teams), and definitely worthy of C+ rank (and even higher actually) on those teams. However, the niche of Starmie is relatively small, hence its placement in C+.
And thx Jukain and TRC about the help with C rank, i was planning on fixing it a bit but i first wanted to make the upper tiers as solid as possible. Your suggestions will be taken in mind and lots of them will be implemented on the next update.
Here are some things i don't agree with:
Alomomola going to B-. Alomomola is one of the easiest Pokemon to take advantage of, and this cannot be undersated. When Taunt + Toxic Heatran can beat a bulky Water one on one, you know that this thing can't do any immediate damage even to frail Pokemon. Most set up sweepers and set up Pokemon in general can set up on Alomomola and threaten it and it's whole team. SubToxic Aegislash, CM Landorus, NP Thundurus, BD Azumarill, SD Bisharp, CM Magic Guard Clefable, SD Excadrill, SD Lum Berry Garchomp, DD Lum Berry Dragonite, SubDD Mega Gyarados, CM Keldeo, SD Mega Pinsir, SD Talonflame and Taunt BU Talonflame, SubWoWTaunt Gengar, SD Terrakion, SD Diggersby, and Tail Glow Manaphy can all take advantage of Alomomola and its lack of offensive presence to set up and OHKO it, or create Subs that it can't break and slowly kill it. The best that Alomomola can do against some of them is use Scald if they are physical attackers and hope that it burns, which is a laughable way of preventing set up and doesn't prevent it at all usually. And those are set up sweepers only out of S and A ranks. Alomomola is set up on by almost every single relevant set up sweeper in OU, which alone is a significant detriment to its viability and is reason enough to never let it go beyond B- rank. Alomomola needs tons of support to cover all those Pokemon that can take advantage of it and make sure it's not a liability to your team, which is why it won't get ranked any higher than C+.
Starmie to C. Starmie is still a great choice on some teams in this hazards-riddled metagame, and is a great weapon against DeoSharp teams. If you pair it with Pursuit Bisharp, Aegislash is rarely an issue (it can still be if it predicts the Bisharp switch in correctly, but Aegi will be hard pressured and be very easy to take advantage in general). In the meanwhile, it has excellent offensive prowess, not unlike Greninja, but unlike Greninja it fails to outspeed some notable threats, namely Tornadus-T and Scarf Tyranitar, and is weak to Pursuit, making it easier to get rid of. However, it makes up for being Pursuit weak and being slower than Greninja with its Analytic-boosted hits and Rapid Spin. Starmie is an excellent option on any offensive team that relies on entry hazards to check dangerous threats or to execute its gameplan (Deo-D teams), and definitely worthy of C+ rank (and even higher actually) on those teams. However, the niche of Starmie is relatively small, hence its placement in C+.
I thought I'd get a little more support for Quagsire moving up. Anyway, I'll try to respond to some of the arguments against moving Quagsire up:
Quagsire is only good on stall: This doesn't really matter. Deoxys-D is generally only very good on HO teams and it is S rank. You can also use Quagsire on balanced teams as the ability to manhandle many set-up sweepers is an invaluable asset.
Status and strong special attacks kill it: Quagsire is not meant to take on these threats. Only Talonflame and bulky Zard-X are threats Quag is supposed to deal with which may carry status. Quagsire can still stop non-CB Talonflame even when burned and bulky Zard-X isn't a very big threat to stall anyway. Quagsire also usually has cleric support just in case it gets statused.
Quagsire is passive: There are very few threats in the game which don't care about either being burned or Toxiced. Mega Venusaur and Ferrothorn hate Scald burns. It threatens more potential switch-ins than Chansey or Skarmory which are both A-.
Quagsire can be killed 30% of the time by LO Bisharp by Knock Off + Iron Head + Knock Off: Lol Jukain. It is actually lower than 30% since low damage rolls won't get the 3HKO. Most 3HKOs have a 12% chance of becoming 2HKO's with a crit, should we account for those too in our calculations? Bisharp only reliably gets past Quag if it has Grass Knot which is a waste of a moveslot just to beat Quag.
By the way, does anyone else think Jukain's post was just a long ramble with no solid reasoning provided for any of his rank changes?
Quagsire is only good on stall: This doesn't really matter. Deoxys-D is generally only very good on HO teams and it is S rank. You can also use Quagsire on balanced teams as the ability to manhandle many set-up sweepers is an invaluable asset.
Status and strong special attacks kill it: Quagsire is not meant to take on these threats. Only Talonflame and bulky Zard-X are threats Quag is supposed to deal with which may carry status. Quagsire can still stop non-CB Talonflame even when burned and bulky Zard-X isn't a very big threat to stall anyway. Quagsire also usually has cleric support just in case it gets statused.
Quagsire is passive: There are very few threats in the game which don't care about either being burned or Toxiced. Mega Venusaur and Ferrothorn hate Scald burns. It threatens more potential switch-ins than Chansey or Skarmory which are both A-.
Quagsire can be killed 30% of the time by LO Bisharp by Knock Off + Iron Head + Knock Off: Lol Jukain. It is actually lower than 30% since low damage rolls won't get the 3HKO. Most 3HKOs have a 12% chance of becoming 2HKO's with a crit, should we account for those too in our calculations? Bisharp only reliably gets past Quag if it has Grass Knot which is a waste of a moveslot just to beat Quag.
By the way, does anyone else think Jukain's post was just a long ramble with no solid reasoning provided for any of his rank changes?
One, Deo-D isn't only good on HO teams. It's mentioned as such because it's one of the key components to HO at this point of time, but it's definitely good on many archetypes. Two, most of Jukains "ramble" was really just a summary of why things should go up or down and to bring up the fact that the lower ranks basically need cleaning up, which I agree with. I'm pretty positive he can make a good more detailed argument for each if it's really necessary. I might look through it all and gather my thoughts to see which ones I agree or disagree with. Maybe alexwolf though can kind of steer the topic perhaps? I know we generally just rank as the meta shifts but I think it would make it much more simpler to have more focused discussions on two or three at a time than just jump from mon to mon, rank to rank.
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Yes considering his anti-Scolipede argument was essentially "lel it isn't used enough", to which I counter
It has been said many times on this thread that usage is irrelevant to a Pokemon's ranking. There are very good mons which are criminally underused and worse mons which are really popular. A lot of Jukain's arguments are that he sees something a lot in tournament play or that he doesn't see something very often. He is basically using the bandwagon argument for moving Mantine up (Nog would support it!) and his reason for moving Starmie down to C is "simply because I don't think it's at the level of the C+ mons". Some of us actually put effort into explaining why we think things should move up or down, and those who can't do so should be ignored.Yes considering his anti-Scolipede argument was essentially "lel it isn't used enough", to which I counter
I'm all for moving cleaning up the lower ranks, but people just posting lists of where they think things belong without any rationale is not the way to do it.
I think Alomomola should stay in C because Mega Blastoise is in C+ and Mega Blastoise arguably provides more useful support (Rapid Spin) than Alom (Wish) and Mega Blastoise actually has some offensive presence with its Scald, so I think Mega Blastoise is a better bulky Water overall and should be ranked higher.
I made some posts earlier saying why Celebi needs to go down, not up. The short description is that Celebi is outclassed at almost everything it does and the only reason to use it is if you need a Grass type and a cleric in one teamslot because it does not perform either role very well. As for checking Rotom-W, just use Chansey instead.
I could talk about some more, but I'll stop here because it is overwhelming to try to post about all of these lower rank Pokemon when the difference between them is usually marginal in the first place.
smh, don't label me as a bandwagon fan just because I like a lesser used threat. I'm actually against moving Mantine up any further as I'm actually not biased in any way (hence why I was given the VR thread). Also I didn't quote this part, but seeing tournament use is an incredibly reliable source simply because tour players are the best players and know what's good and what isn't. Usage alone isn't an argument but most of the discussion and arguments based on viability rankings occurs in PM's or on IRC anyway.
I wasn't arguing usage as a reason scolipede should move up, I was making the point that usage doesn't determine viability, hence why Deoxys-D is 45th in usage. And from what I can tell, baton pass is not used in tournaments not because it isn't good, but because a lot of higher levels players hate it. I would much rather trust people getting consistently to the top of the ladder than what people in tournaments use. Then again, Deoxys-S will probably be banned soon, so I guess it doesn't matter if Scoli only rises to A- or so, because that's where it'll be after the ban.
Having used mantine myself, I can see it's OU viability but I think you'd be stretching to move it up too much... Tournament play also brings some odd sets and lures which aren't necessarily consistent, so we should keep that in mind. More importantly, Mantine is a deadweight offensively, basically having to pressure scald burns or spam toxic. The recovery is awful, having to rely on rest. The defensive stat is bad... I mean, we all know mantine's viability is that keldeo/lando countering and zardy walling... But that mostly requires special set, so sacred sword is still hurting. It can't really do anything but stall zard and keldeo, either. The scald in sun will do nothing and the OU set has no place for air slash (nor should it, I bet that's still a 3hko on keldeo).
C- is fine for right now.
C- is fine for right now.
D rank is WAAAY too low for Mega Absol. Sure, he needs a turn to safely Mega Evolve, but he can always run Protect to get said safe turn, or can Sucker Punch a greedy attacker thinking they can get the jump on him. Magic Bounce is an amazing ability for an offensive Pokemon, as it protects him from Will-O-Wisp, Thunder Wave, and Toxic, along with a few other status moves. This is a huge advantage that Mega Absol has over other sweepers, as it greatly aids him when against stall. Also, his base 115 Speed should never be underestimated, as it allows him to outrun the likes of Gengar, Latios, and Thundurus, some pretty huge threats to look out for. As if that wasn't enough, he can also go mixed with 150 / 115 offenses, and with good moves such as Sucker Punch, Play Rough, and Flamethrower, he has all the coverage he needs right there. B--Rank is pretty solid for him.
As for Rotom-H and Mega Abomasnow, Rotom-H has more weaknesses than Rotom-W, a Stealth Rock weakness, and unlike Rotom-W with Hydro Pump, Rotom-H is forced to run a hit-and-run strategy due to Overheat being his only Fire-type move, so C+ seems pretty fair to me. And for Mega Abomasnow, he literally gets curb-stomped by so many things on this viability ranking list. To be honest, seeing him making D-rank is actually kind of astonishing to me.
Smog Frog Cinco Swift
In this case, smog is dead wrong. TrickRoom+Hail is a completely viable albeit hard to use strategy. MAbsol is certainly not a great mon for any b rank area given that there are just better fast mons out there and bisharp nearly outclasses m-absol (sweeper/wallbreaker, not anti lead...) BEFORE you consider the mega stone taken out. D rank is a bit much but by Jukain's post... C doesn't seem wrong at all.
Mawile in TR is good. However, Abomasnow in TR is very good, and the only place it really should find itself. Aboma has a poor type defensively, but great bulk and some very threatening attack in 100% accurate blizzard, EQ, strong grass stabs and multiple other coverage moves he basically can tack on for fun. In TR, fire types that would beat him instantly have to run. Nothing wants to switch in, and tbh he works better with the team as one of the setters of the passive hail damage.
One of the cool things about Aboma is he gives TR options. He can allow TR to go full out offensive. Mixed 132 attacks are scarey, and he has the big 100+ base power moves. This alone makes him as strong as anything you'll reasonably need to find. Yes, a bit weaker than MMaw, but he also gets very nice coverage in his blizzard spam. He allows TR to have a bit of a stall focus with hail passive damage and great 90/105/105 bulk stats. He even meshes well with the more defensive setter, Slowking, taking grass and electric attacks while allowing slowking to take fire and steel.
And let's not start a shitfest. Neither one of you are really in any position to talk about the other's posting habits.
In this case, smog is dead wrong. TrickRoom+Hail is a completely viable albeit hard to use strategy. MAbsol is certainly not a great mon for any b rank area given that there are just better fast mons out there and bisharp nearly outclasses m-absol (sweeper/wallbreaker, not anti lead...) BEFORE you consider the mega stone taken out. D rank is a bit much but by Jukain's post... C doesn't seem wrong at all.
Mawile in TR is good. However, Abomasnow in TR is very good, and the only place it really should find itself. Aboma has a poor type defensively, but great bulk and some very threatening attack in 100% accurate blizzard, EQ, strong grass stabs and multiple other coverage moves he basically can tack on for fun. In TR, fire types that would beat him instantly have to run. Nothing wants to switch in, and tbh he works better with the team as one of the setters of the passive hail damage.
One of the cool things about Aboma is he gives TR options. He can allow TR to go full out offensive. Mixed 132 attacks are scarey, and he has the big 100+ base power moves. This alone makes him as strong as anything you'll reasonably need to find. Yes, a bit weaker than MMaw, but he also gets very nice coverage in his blizzard spam. He allows TR to have a bit of a stall focus with hail passive damage and great 90/105/105 bulk stats. He even meshes well with the more defensive setter, Slowking, taking grass and electric attacks while allowing slowking to take fire and steel.
And let's not start a shitfest. Neither one of you are really in any position to talk about the other's posting habits.
Hail is basically Sandstorm that hits more Pokemon and has exactly one abuser in Abomasnow, so I definitely wouldn't call it a strategy... Sand has MGarchomp and Excadrill at least. Moreover, TR teams don't stall very well, the poor defensive typing of most setters (Psychic types and Porygon 2 are the most relevant ones) means that they don't mesh well defensively, and Aboma certainly doesn't help matters with it's typing. Add that TR stays up for five turns maximum, and that stalling starts to waste away those already precious turns for some residual damage... It really doesn't mesh too well with the breakneck speed (figuratively) that a good Trick Room team requires to perform. Hail does break Focus Sashes and Sturdy, but so does Stealth Rock, and SR does the damage before attacks happen, which is far better. So Hail benefits TR teams far less than you make it out to.
Aboma does happen to be very powerful, hell, it's actually pretty impressive what this guy can do, but it's other problems are so huge I almost want to compare it with Rampardos. It's bulk is good for a tank, but it's typing utterly ruins it. 7 weaknesses, and the only things that it actually resists that don't run coverage on it appear to be Raikou, Rotom-W, Suicune, bulky Manaphy, and some fat Celebi (correct me if I'm missing something here). It's Speed makes it a great candidate for Trick Room, but combined with it's typing, it doesn't just like Trick Room, it demands it for it to actually function. It also is extremely easy to wear down, given that it's weak to Stealth Rock, vulnerable to all external damage outside of hail, is affected by every sort of status not named Spore or Leech Seed, and if you want to run Wood Hammer, the most powerful move Abomasnow can run outside of Blizzard, you'll be taking recoil from that too (and Chansey still shits on you, smh). Aboma is weak to almost every kind of priority, including the ever present Talonflame, and Bisharp's Sucker Punch is still shaving off over 50% of a 200 HP Aboma's health, which is sad for something that's actually invested in bulk. On the other hand, Mega Mawile has fantastic defensive typing, hits like a nuke as well, can run the required coverage to blast basically every wall in the tier (no SD means you can go with Fire Fang, Brick Break, you team is already running Psychics so Venusaur is manageable), it can deal with slower / faster mons outside of TR with Sucker Punch, and actually has some sort of defensive synergy with Psychic types, which is nice since that's what it'll want to switch in from.
I just can't see why I'd run Abomasnow in a serious environment.
Yeah, the best moveset for Mega Absol is: Knock Off / Sucker Punch / Super Power / Ice Beam | Fire Blast | Pursuit
Anyway, Mega Absol is able to abuse Chansey like no other, beat the Deoxyses, has hard hitting Priority, has the ability to go mixed, and therefore beat Gliscor or Skarmory with its Special coverage, and best of all - it's immune to Will-o-Wisp + Thunder Wave. It is niche; it needs some support and isn't super common. But, it has exactly zero competition for its unique role. It has its issues: extreme frailty and taking the mega slot. But, it's definitely worth it when you give it team support. It deserves B- rank imo.
With Mega Abomansnow, you really have to look at a couple of factors. Yes, it's extremely powerful. There is no way to get around that. Its Blizzards hit like Modest unboosted Ice Beams Kyurem-W, its Wood Hammer is very powerful and useful in a tier with annoying Water types. It also has semi-powerful priority and cool coverage in Earthquake. Additionally, its defenses are amazing. However, its defensive typing is extremely poor. Every single Pokemon it would want to hit with Earthquake is faster than it and can OHKO it. Even some Pokemon that it would target with its STAB moves OHKO it with Fire, Fighting, Rock, Steel, Bug, Poison, or Flying moves. You really have to look and see what Pokemon it can take advantage of in OU. Bulky waters may seem obvious, but some, like Slowbro, OHKO it with a Fire move, and if it's running Wood Hammer instead of Giga Drain or Energy Ball, which of course is recommended, cripple it with Will-o-Wisp, like Rotom-W. That leaves Gyarados, Mandibuzz, Gliscor, Quagsire, Suicune, Crawdaunt, and Manaphy the only good OU Pokemon that Abomasnow can come in on, be relatively unscathed (although it may have to take a Toxic, Seismic Toss, Scald, or Ice Fang), and force out.
Abomasnow is able to force seven OU Pokemon out, but compare that with the Pokemon that force it out. So many Pokemon wall Grass and Ground, and a decent amount wall Ice. If you mispredict the switch in, you will be forced out; there's no way around it. Abomasnow can hit hard physically and specially, but it's so slow and has such a poor defensive typing that most of the time it switches in, something that can wall the predicted move comes it, and Abomasnow is forced out (it's SR weak btw) or is KOd. Any bulky Pokemon neutral to Ice, Grass, and Ground, like Chansey, Sylveon, and Mega Venusaur (with HP Fire) can take it on with ease. It's a very risky Pokemon to use, and unlike other risky Pokemon, like Mega Absol, Slowking, Omastar, Mega Abomasnow's flaws prevent it from being worth the risk most of the time. It may find use on Trick Room teams, in which its Speed is actually beneficial. However, it faces tough competition from Mega Mawile, and still despises its defensive typing, albeit less. If you're using it, it will take a lot of support, so much that it generally just isn't worth using. I'm not sure if it even should be ranked, but if we're only debating if it should be D, C-, or C, D is certainly the best place.
Anyway, Mega Absol is able to abuse Chansey like no other, beat the Deoxyses, has hard hitting Priority, has the ability to go mixed, and therefore beat Gliscor or Skarmory with its Special coverage, and best of all - it's immune to Will-o-Wisp + Thunder Wave. It is niche; it needs some support and isn't super common. But, it has exactly zero competition for its unique role. It has its issues: extreme frailty and taking the mega slot. But, it's definitely worth it when you give it team support. It deserves B- rank imo.
With Mega Abomansnow, you really have to look at a couple of factors. Yes, it's extremely powerful. There is no way to get around that. Its Blizzards hit like Modest unboosted Ice Beams Kyurem-W, its Wood Hammer is very powerful and useful in a tier with annoying Water types. It also has semi-powerful priority and cool coverage in Earthquake. Additionally, its defenses are amazing. However, its defensive typing is extremely poor. Every single Pokemon it would want to hit with Earthquake is faster than it and can OHKO it. Even some Pokemon that it would target with its STAB moves OHKO it with Fire, Fighting, Rock, Steel, Bug, Poison, or Flying moves. You really have to look and see what Pokemon it can take advantage of in OU. Bulky waters may seem obvious, but some, like Slowbro, OHKO it with a Fire move, and if it's running Wood Hammer instead of Giga Drain or Energy Ball, which of course is recommended, cripple it with Will-o-Wisp, like Rotom-W. That leaves Gyarados, Mandibuzz, Gliscor, Quagsire, Suicune, Crawdaunt, and Manaphy the only good OU Pokemon that Abomasnow can come in on, be relatively unscathed (although it may have to take a Toxic, Seismic Toss, Scald, or Ice Fang), and force out.
Abomasnow is able to force seven OU Pokemon out, but compare that with the Pokemon that force it out. So many Pokemon wall Grass and Ground, and a decent amount wall Ice. If you mispredict the switch in, you will be forced out; there's no way around it. Abomasnow can hit hard physically and specially, but it's so slow and has such a poor defensive typing that most of the time it switches in, something that can wall the predicted move comes it, and Abomasnow is forced out (it's SR weak btw) or is KOd. Any bulky Pokemon neutral to Ice, Grass, and Ground, like Chansey, Sylveon, and Mega Venusaur (with HP Fire) can take it on with ease. It's a very risky Pokemon to use, and unlike other risky Pokemon, like Mega Absol, Slowking, Omastar, Mega Abomasnow's flaws prevent it from being worth the risk most of the time. It may find use on Trick Room teams, in which its Speed is actually beneficial. However, it faces tough competition from Mega Mawile, and still despises its defensive typing, albeit less. If you're using it, it will take a lot of support, so much that it generally just isn't worth using. I'm not sure if it even should be ranked, but if we're only debating if it should be D, C-, or C, D is certainly the best place.
TR Abomasnow has problems. SR is a pain, cutting its bulk down, coupled with priority from TalonFlame, Mega Pinsir, Conkeldurr, Breloom, and Scizor. Even Neutral ES and Sucker Punch is going to take a large chunk out of it's health when combined with SR. Speaking of Scizor, it rapes the hell out of Abomasnow and with Bullet Punch and U-Turn in its arsenal, you can kiss your momentum goodbye, and TR lives on momentum. It also has 4MSS, since you find yourself picking coverage or Priority Ice Shard. Outside of TR, it's mediocre at best, even with Ice Shard. Those mixed stats are kinda overrated as well. It's decent but without an item or an ability boosting it, it's just decent.
I really can't see TR stall being any good or worth using over regular stall. 5 turns of TR + TR low type distribution aren't things stall wants to deal with at all. What Abomasnow does do is changes the weather so that Pory2 and friends can use Blizzard instead of Ice Beam for a limited amount of time. It actually helps against stall, by either taking lefties away or chipping Mega-Venusaur down. It can also be used to provide neutral weather for your Fire or Water types.
I really can't see TR stall being any good or worth using over regular stall. 5 turns of TR + TR low type distribution aren't things stall wants to deal with at all. What Abomasnow does do is changes the weather so that Pory2 and friends can use Blizzard instead of Ice Beam for a limited amount of time. It actually helps against stall, by either taking lefties away or chipping Mega-Venusaur down. It can also be used to provide neutral weather for your Fire or Water types.
"One has one of the best typings in the game and the other has one of the worst" okay then.
Ajwf I respect your opinion but I'm just not seeing how Mega Aboma is better than Mega Mawile in TR. It has good bulk but really not enough to make up for its enormous amount of weaknesses. That, and its physical bulk is not that much greater than Mawile's:
252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 117-138 (38.4 - 45.3%)
252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Abomasnow: 135-159 (35.1 - 41.4%)
It has appreciably better special bulk though so I guess that's a point in its favor.
Aboma is weak to multiple forms of priority while Mawile is weak to none and resists several. Aboma is weak to SR while Mawile resists it. Aboma is strong while Mawile is STRONKTH. Aboma, without TR, loses to a large number of things 1v1 without TR support while Mawile wins vs. several. Mega Mawile has Sucker Punch off of 260ish base attack while Aboma has Ice Shard off of 132 (not fully invested) base attack.
I'm not doubting that a TR team centered around Aboma could be effective, but I really doubt it could be more effective than one centered around Mawile. I'd really like to see replays of an Aboma Trick Roon team in action, cause I'm just not seeing it. It's a really, ultra niche pokemon that works on maybe a couple different teams and requires intensive levels of support to be even a bit effective. Like, I agree with Jukain that Moltres could move up to C- (I think even C is appropriate.) It requires intensive hazard control but if SR is not on the field, its ability as a defensive pokemon is actually a bit impressive. Aboma, when given the support it needs/really really appreciates (Trick Room and hazard control minimum,) is not even that good.
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I am starting to question if Kyurem should really be ranked at all.
Fair enough, it has higher special attack and can be useful in a hail team...but wouldn't Kyurem-B do that better even with "just" base 120 special attack, thanks to Terravolt Earth Power?
The only other thing I can imaging is Pressure Stall which Zapdosor Deo-D can pull off better. Zapdos has even a better defensive typing unless I am missing something important.
Fair enough, it has higher special attack and can be useful in a hail team...but wouldn't Kyurem-B do that better even with "just" base 120 special attack, thanks to Terravolt Earth Power?
The only other thing I can imaging is Pressure Stall which Zapdos
Actually imo Kyurem is quite decent in the meta currently, mainly for one set - SubRoost. SubRoost has a truck load of bulk and can easily PP stall in the current meta. Kyurem also has very good coverage with just Ice Beam and Earth Power, and Base 130 SpA is very good for a defensive mon like Kyurem. While it's outclassed at an offensive role by Cube and co, SubRoost has little competition as a PP staller and imo it deserves its ranking.
Not really.
These are the C to D Rank changes that I discussed with Jukain and alexwolf on IRC, and I believe that they are very accurate in terms of comparisons:
B- - only here so I can move Sableye
Sableye | great typing, priority burn and recover and taunt are great niches and sableye is definitely worth at least this rank.
C+ - couple of niches with workable metagame roles
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Mega Aggron | this thing is like the definition of physical tank. with pure steel-typing and filter + base 230 defense you'll be hard pressed trying to take this down physically, possibly even with super-effective attacks. it beats azumarill, dragonite, mega scizor, non-subpunch mega mawile, mega pinsir, and the lati twins. it also has a decent offensive presence with heavy slam and a high attack stat. no reliable recovery and special attack vulnerability kinda hinder it a bit though.
Alakazam | this thing is a nice revenge killer as it can potentially rk a lot of things that are slower multiple times and one thing faster in a game. very frail though but twave is nice.
Alomomola | wish plus regenerator is a niche, magic coat to fuck deo leads and toxic users is a niche, plus this thing sees wcop uses and is very effective at walling most physical attackers.
Mega Blastoise | while this is a great bulky and powerful spinner that would surely move up if it wasnt a mega, dedicating a mega slot to a spinner as opposed to something to build a team around is pretty annoying.
Chandelure | i wasnt sure about this before but alexwolf convinced me. subsplit is a real pain for stall to handle and sub + 3 attacks has nice coverage and hits quite hard, but it wears itself down quickly.
Ditto | ditto is kinda hard to rank but i think c+ is fine since i think it already was here. i could see it go down up or w/e.
Goodra | i kinda think this isn't as bad as everyone makes it out to be. it has wcop uses, is a nice special tank that actually has decent power. it suffers from being worn down quite quicky. it walls a lot of the top special attackers in the tier, especially zard y.
Gorebyss | same rank as venomoth, very similar role except it passes an attack boost and has a few other advantages.
Infernape | it is a niche mon in general. defensive sets can switch into bisharp while offensive sets are nice on zard y teams to check sharp and benefit from the sun. stallbreaker sets have one advantage over mew (beating heatran) and dice used sr lead a bit.
Klefki | pro priority twave spikes and screens. it also has the best defensive typing in the game.
Krookodile| is a nice aegislash check and unlike hippo it gets stab knock off and some other interesting moves. quite niche but it has a recognisable role in the meta.
Omastar | this and seismitoad are lesser used special rain sweepers over keldeo and kingdra with a few advantages. omastar is the most powerful and hits like a nuke, 2hoking ferrothorn with hydro pump. it is nice if you want a complete powerhouse on your rain team.
Rotom-H | it is a nice pivot and it checks talonflame well. havent used it much though.
Seismitoad | exchanges a bit of power for the ability to check thund, be immune to twave, and have a bit of nice coverage like focus blast and earth power.
Shuckle | webs is an inconsistent playstyle in ou but it has some uses. shuckle always does its job though, even if its job is a free +2 for bisharp.
Smeargle | yeah sr spore quiver/smash pass is a niche, everyone knows what smeargle can do.
Starmie | i think this has the offensive presence to be here, it is powerful with analytic and spin gives it an advantage over greninja.
Togekiss | ehh, i think this thing is mediocre but it can do some stuff ok i guess.
Venomoth | decent quiverpasser, if you use it with something like landorus it gets REALLY scary, but it definitely has a workable metagame role. i dont think competition with gorebyss is really a thing because the special defense boost is very beneficial and you also have sleep powder for easier setup, as well as the freedom to run sash.
Volcarona | it's annoyed by talonflame and azumarill, but the offensive (qd / fiery dance / giga / hp ground or rock) or bulky (qd / fiery dance / giga / roost) versions of the quiver dance sets each have a bit of advantage to them.
C - one small niche with a little bit of merit in the meta
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Blissey | this defines one small niche with a little bit of merit in the meta. niche of lefties + taking on landorus better than chansey + not minding sand as much + being able to avoid 2hkoes and such with protect is pretty much the definition of this rank. yes chansey is better defensively overall. however, blissey can still fit in this rank for its few advantages.
Celebi | celebi checks things like keldeo and lando, it has a huge supportive movepool (twave, recover, sr, much more) can do some work offensively and even has bp for pursuit.
Cresselia | this thing is nice. it walls common threats like lando, was seen on a wcop stall and is mandatory on tr teams, a c rank playstyle.
Exploud | always on tr so it fits in this rank as well, phenomenal wallbreaker with tr support, boomburst is a nuke.
Haxorus | dd sets are pretty outclassed by zard x but sd hits massively hard and mold breaker eq is pretty cute as well.
Hydreigon | this thing is pretty outclassed by most other dragons but at least it has a great movepool so not much can switch-in on all possible moves. typing is nice also.
Magnezone | steel trapping niche is pretty barren but usable for teams with say, diggersby. specs analytic is kinda cool imo.
Porygon2 | tr pokemon that walls some nice shit. not lando tho cos knock off.
Tangrowth | also walls a lot, regen is cool, av works if you are alexwolf :]]]]]
C- - one small niche
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Arcanine | the perfect definition of one small niche: hard countering mega mawile on stall with intimidate, wow, and morning sun.
Mega Banette| another small niche, revenge killing almost every setup sweeper regardless of amount of boosts. very flawed in practice though but still worthy of a low rank.
Dugtrio | in generall, dugtrio is a pretty poor / outclassed trapper. it does very little outspeed of /potentially/ trapping heatran / tyranitar. Jukain is right in that is incredibly specialized and most often another trapper will do you better.
Gardevoir | the only gardevoir set worth running aside from mega is scarf. it has a few advantages, a stab fairy move is one and trace is another to rk exca / swift swim pokemon / switch in on heatrans lava plume etc etc. very minor niches, this thing isnt very worthwhile but its niche is apparent enough for c- rank.
Gastrodon | one small niche: it does very well against rain teams, otherwise it's just a bulky water-type that faces huge competition from all the other bulky water-types.
Gourgeist-Small | walls excadrill and diggersby i guess. can burn them. very niche pokemon.
Hawlucha | is BL. can potentially sweep with the niche of hjk + unburden+ cool typing but it faces issues from popular meta threats like aegi, thundurus, talonflame, mega pinsir, etc.
Mega Houndoom | i dont think this is hopeless, it sits at a niche speed tier above keldeo and lati@s and gengar, np is actually quite powerful, and solar power + hwish sunny day latias + venu is /ok/ in some matchups. definitely very flawed (sr weak, hard to setup, other wallbreakers) but not hopeless.
Kyurem | unfortunatly terribly outclassed but subroost pressure is a minor niche so i guess it fits here.
Mantine | small niche, checks landorus and keldeo on stall teams while also being able to use defog.
Moltres | agent gibbs knows what he's talking about in regards to moltres, and he's pretty much spot on. it handles mawile ok, can subroost pressure stall like kyurem, and beats steel types with its stab which is cool.
Ludicolo | a very niche rain sweeper that faces competition with kingdra, keldeo, and omastar (and even seismitoad) but it can beat av azumarill which is typically an annoyance.
Slowking | checks zard y and many special pokemon but generally an inferior slowbro.
Sharpedo | sharpedo can clean up if things are very weak and you have hazard support, but it has so many things it's walled by that it can't do much in an effective team. speed boost + destiny bond is an ok combination though.
Thundurus-T | thundurus outclasses this thing so bad but at least there's powerful double dance sets and a bit of higher special attack.
Wobbuffet | first of all, use sitrus berry. second of all, unlike gothitelle, this takes on one offensive mon instead of several defensive ones. small niche encore dbond etc.
D - one small often outclassed niche
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Mega Abomasnow | this thing is nice against some stalls and has hail for chip damage, but often requires tr to be successful and is very very niche.
Cloyster | cant setup against much with its typing and spdef and it is walled by the best pokemon in the game, aegislash.
Cofagrigus | works on tr i guess but seems kind of worthless.
Empoleon | modest emp checks greninja on offensive teams and it defogs which is cool but av azu checks gren on offense too and has more offensive power, other defoggers are more efficient with their recovery.
Froslass| this could move up once deos are banned but it is outclassed for now.
Jirachi | every role it can do can be done better by something else, and it has a detrimental typing.
Meloetta | checks aegislash but hopelessly outclassed at anything else.
Reuniclus | terrible typing cant setup on much and slow. this and emp and toxi are the only things i could see moving up to c-.
Snorlax | walls zard y i guess.. kind of a sitting duck and easy to take down physically.
Toxicroak | this thing can sd on a few things and switch into keld (and crocune). stab gunk shot for clefable is nice. however walled by a lot of things in the meta (aegislash) and revenged by talonflame and pinsir.
Unranked - here just to show moves from higher ranks to here
Roserade | there is no niche for this thing. spikes sets have huge competition with chesnaught, anything else with mega venusaur (offensive or defensive) and amoonguss.
Umbreon | everything it wants to wall can beat it eventually and everything it does wall gets walled better by something else.
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