Hydreigon [QC 0/3]

[habajiga]

HYDREIGON OU ANALYSIS
​

Overview
#######

+ One of the most versatile offensive threats ever introduced into the metagame.
+ Excellent stallbreaker.
+ Able to check common threats such as Rotom-W and Slowbro, which gives Hydreigon a unique niche.
+ Comes with a very useful typing in Dark/Dragon, which provides it with resistances to many common attacking types.
+ This typing also gives Hydreigon his main niche over the Lati Twins, the ability to revenge kill +2 Bisharp, due to a resistance to Sucker Punch.
+ Has an excellent base 125 Special Attack and a solid 105 Attack, on top of this it has a solid base 98 speed which lets it outspeed the walls it is intended to break.
+ Blessed with one of the best movepools in the entire game, having access to coverage moves such as Fire Blast, Superpower, Earth Power, Surf, and even Flash Cannon to hit Fairies.
+ Since the leave of Aegislash (R.I.P), bulky Psychics such as Mew and Slowbro are becoming much more common, which gives Hydreigon a much more usefulness.

- The introduction of the Fairy typing, which allows several Pokemon to be immune to and resist Hydreigon's STABs.
- The new Fairy typing also cursed Hydreigon with a 4x weakness.
- Fairies, namely Azumarril, usually resist or at best are neutral to Hydreigon's coverage moves.
- 98 speed is only solid, and leaves Hydreigon outsped by many of it's threats such as Greninja, the Lati Twins, Garchomp, Mega Gardevoir, and Keldeo.


Life Orb Attacker
#######
name: Life Orb Attacker
move 1: Draco Meteor
move 2: Dark Pulse
move 3: Fire Blast
move 4: Superpower / Roost/ Flash Cannon
item: Life Orb
evs: 24 Atk / 252 SpA / 232 Spe
nature: Modest

Moves
=======
- Draco Meteor is Hydreigon's most powerful STAB and manages to nuke anything that is neutral to it very hard.
- Dark Pulse allows Hydreigon to hit threats such as Gengar Super-Effectively.
- Fire Blast is Hydreigon's most common coverage move and for good reason too. Fire Blast lets Hydreigon roast Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Bisharp, and Mega Mawile.
- The last move really depends on what your team needs. Superpower lets Hydreigon hit specially bulky Pokemon such as Tyranitar, SpDef Heatran, and Chansey. Flash Cannon gives Hydreigon the ability to 2HKO Clefable, but fails to 2HKO Sylveon. Meanwhile, Roost greatly increases Hydreigon's longevity, but sadly Hydreigon greatly misses out on coverage.

Set Details
=======
- A +Speed nature isn't recommended because you aren't really outspeeding anything.
- Only run Naive/Timid if you want to outspeed offensive Charizard X before a Dragon Dance. The nature depends on whether you run Superpower or not.
- The speed EVs let you outspeed Adamant Kyurem-B.
- If you don't run Superpower, invest the 24 EVs into HP instead for extra bulk.

Usage Tips
=======

- Hydreigon works as a hit-and-run attacker, mainly due to the Special Attack drops.
- Hydreigon can easily switch in on resisted hits such as Rotom's Hydro Pump and Heatran's Fire attacks.
- Levitate also grants Hydreigon another excellent immunity to Ground attacks, although Hydreigon shouldn't switch in on users such as Garchomp and Landorus-I.

Team Options
=======

- Greatly appreciates the company of Steel types, due to his Fairy and Ice weakness.
- Bulky Mega Scizor, Magnezone and and other Steel types are probably the best partners in the game to accompany Hydreigon.
- AV Azumarill also makes for a great partner.


Choice Specs
#######
name: Choice Specs
move 1: Draco Meteor
move 2: Dark Pulse
move 3: Fire Blast
move 4: Focus Blast/ Flash Cannon/ U-Turn
item: Choice Specs
evs: 24 HP/ 252 SpA/ 232 Spe
nature: Mild/ Modest

Moves
=======
- Focus Blast over Superpower to abuse the power Choice Specs provides.
- Due to the extra power Flash Cannon is now an option to 2HKO Sylveon and Forges.
- Choice Specs lets you nuke even resisted switch-ins.

Set Details
=======
- Same as the Life Orb set.
- Since you should not run Superpower, the leftover 24 EVs should go into HP.

Usage Tips
=======
- Switch into resisted attacks and proceed to nuke the opposing team.
- Try not to lock yourself into Flash Cannon and stay in too long.

Team Options
=======
- This set especially appreciate momentum and opportunities to switch in and nuke, so U-Turners and Volt-Switchers are once again great team additions. Landorus-T gets a special mention since it can come in on predicted fighting type attacks, scare out the Fighting type, and U-Turn out into Hydreigon.
- Bulky Steels that can take a hit are great partners, because if you mispredict and lock yourself into a resisted hit they can come in and sponge an attack aimed at you.
- AV Azumarill is once again a great partner since like the bulky Steels it lets you make mistakes and can switch in on Ice, Fighting, and Dragon-type attacks.


Other Options
#######

- Hydreigon is blessed with an excellent movepool which you can experiment with.
- Surf is another option to hit Heatran/Hippowdon, but these are both 2HKO'd anyway (Heatran by a fighting move, and Hippowdon with a STAB)
- Taunt can be used to further help with stall, but the extra coverage move helps a lot more.
- Tailwind is another interesting option that can aid Hydreigon with his speed problem, but it generally isn't worth missing out on the coverage.
- Earth Power hits Bisharp, and Heatran, but these are already hit Super-Effectively by coverage moves.
- Iron Tail could be used on the Life Orb set to 2HKO Sylveon, but isn't recommended as Clefable is more common and Iron Tail's accuracy is very shaky.

Checks & Counters
#######

**Faster Attackers**: Greninja, The Swords of Justice, The Lati Twins, Garchomp, Mega Gardevoir, Mega Medicham, and even Scolipede can outspeed and OHKO Hydreigon with their respective STABs. Same goes for fast Fighting types such as Keldeo, Terrakion, and Infernape, as they can easily outspeed and proceed to OHKO Hydreigon with their respective STABs. However, none of them can safely switch in as they risk being greatly dented or even OHKOed.

**Specially Bulky Pokemon**: With the attack drops from Superpower, Hydreigon can't 2HKO Chansey, which can stall him out. Mega Venusaur also doesn't struggle too much with Hydreigon as it is naturally bulky and only takes neutral damage from Fire Blast due to Thick Fat. AV users such as Azumarill and Conkeldurr also give Hydreigon a very hard time.

**Priority**: Sadly, Hydreigon has a weakness to two very strong forms of priority. The most common being Breloom's Mach Punch, which can OHKO Hydreigon with the assistance of a Life Orb. Same goes for Weavile's and Mamoswine's Ice Shard. AV Conkeldurr gets another special mention, because unlike the aforementioned threats it can actually switch in on Hydreigon's attacks. Choice Band Talonflame also can deal very heavy damage to Hydreigon, and even OHKO it after Stealth Rocks.

**Fairy Types**: Hydreigon's best checks are Fairy types as they are immune to and resist Hydreigon's STABs. Azumarril and Clefable stand out as they have the bulk to switch in on Hydreigon and OHKO it with a 4X effective move in their Fairy STABs. Clefable does risk being 2HKOd by Flash Cannon, but with some SpDef investment it can even withstand that.

Special Thanks to Mob Barley for helping me with the sets.

 

[LeoLancaster]

Is this QC approved? I don't see anything in the reservation thread. If this does go through, I have a couple of suggestions.

For the first set, I see no reason to go max Speed if not going with a +Spe nature. 232 EVs outspeed neutral Spe Kyurem-B, so I'd go 24 HP / 252 SpA / 232 Spe. (Atk evs don't do anything notable as far as I can tell.)

Secondly, Scarf and Specs sets are never (rarely?) merged this Gen, so definitely separate your second set into two.

Of course, I'm not QC, so feel free to take this with a grain of salt.

 

[Jukain]

He asked for permission and this is alright, so yes he can do it.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

A few thoughts I have at the moment.

The first set has a bad case of slashitis right now in that last moveslot. I think Earth Power could be dropped, to be honest. All of the Pokemon that you mentioned it hits are already hit hard enough by Fire Blast outside of Heatran, who still risks a KO from Dark Pulse + Superpower with Stealth Rock down. I'm also a little iffy about Iron Tail, to be honest. Sure, you hit specially defensive Fairies harder, but I'm not so sure it's really worth it. Outside of Sylveon (or in the case of physically defensive Sylveon), you can beat Fairies just fine with Flash Cannon without having to worry about running a -Def/SpD nature or dealing with a shaky 75% accurate move. I think you could remove those two and make that last moveslot Superpower / Roost / Flash Cannon, although maybe not in that exact order. I also want to recommend a 24 Atk / 252 SpA / 232 Spe Mild spread. This gives you enough speed to beat Adamant Kyurem-B, maximum special power, and a little extra Atk. It's not much, but you have a shot at 2HKOing 4/252+ Chansey after Stealth Rock with Superpower, for instance. You can also mention in Set Details that if you don't run Superpower (or any physical move, for that matter), you can move those Atk EVs to HP instead and run a Modest nature.

For the Choice Set, I'm still kinda in the same boat about Earth Power. I'm just not sure it covers much that you couldn't nail with Focus Blast or something. You can also remove Superpower for this one. With a -Atk nature and no Life Orb or Atk investment, Hydreigon's Superpower becomes really weak, so it's not going to be nailing the same things that it would with the Life Orb set (namely Chansey). Not really sure on the other moves or the nature at the moment.

I'll try to play around with this thing and maybe comment more later, but that's just my first impression.

 

[alexwolf]

Although i don't have a lot of experience with Scarf Hydreigon, i can't really see its merits. I guess it's nice to have a Ghost-resist able to switch into Aegislash on a pinch, but Dark Pulse from Timid Hydreigon is weak as fuck (55.5 - 65.4% vs 252 HP Aegislash). Not to mention that Scaf Hydreigon is very easy to wall even for offensive teams (Azumarill, Hippowdon, Clefable, Mega Venusaur, SpD Heatran, Mandibuzz) and kinda defeats the purpose of running Hydreigon in the first place, which is great power + great STABs and ability to nearly OHKO Aegislash, making for a decent check to it. I just can't see why i would use Scarf Hydreigon over Scarf Terrakion, Scarf Excadrill, Scarf Lando-T, or even Scarf Keldeo.

The only set i would include is an all out attacker with Life Orb / Specs as the items, and a moveset like this:

Life Orb Attacker
#######
name: Life Orb Attacker
move 1: Draco Meteor
move 2: Dark Pulse
move 3: Fire Blast
move 4: Superpower / Focus Blast / Roost
item: Life Orb / Choice Specs
evs: 24 Atk / 252 SpA / 232 Spe
nature: Mild / Modest

The EV spread for the reasons Agent Gibbs stated. +SpA Fire Blast does 46% minimum to Clefable, so Flash Cannon is not really needed unless you really want not having to predict Clefable switch-ins. Flash Cannon is fine for Moves mention but nothing more. Flash Cannon 2HKOes BD Azumarill after SR i guess (and without SR if Specs), but it can't 2HKO the CB or AV sets, and Dark Pulse is a way better move to spam, even if it does ~10% less to Azumarill. Anyway, Superpower and Roost are for LO sets and Focus Blast for Specs sets. U-turn and Flash Cannon should go to Moves, and that's it i think. Really, the reason to use Hydreigon is to destroy most of OU with just your STABs, and Scarf can't do this.

 

[Fourth Inversion]

I'd propose using a bulkier spread instead, with one possibility being 216 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpA / 32 Spe (to outpace neutral base 70s), as in return for losing to Kyurem-B, Hydreigon is able to survive priority from Breloom and Talonflame and OHKO back, is able to switch in and counter Bisharp by surviving Life Orb Iron Head + Sucker Punch as well as the general utility to tank hits a lot better, and recovering more HP from Roost.

 

[habajiga]

Alright, Thank You to LeoLancer, Agent Gibbs, Fourth Invasion and alexwolf, I have taken your advice and modified the sets accordingly.

 

[Jukain]

No Choice Scarf set. There honestly just isn't that much of a reason to use it, the whole point behind Hydreigon is wall breaking and Scarf can't do that.

For the last slot on the first set I'd go: Superpower / Roost / Flash Cannon. Focus Blast hits stuff you want to hit w/ crap accuracy while not really damaging Chansey, so that should be dropped. Roost is a strong option imo because you want this to come into Aegi SBall and such and stay healthy, and Flash Cannon hits Clefable.

You need a Fairy-types section in C&C, especially including Azumarill and Clefable. These Pokemon are the biggest bane to it as they wall it (outside of Flash Cannon for Clefable) and can hit it with 4x SE attacks.

Fast mons need to mention Fighting-types...especially Keldeo in addition to Terrak/maybe Infernapez

 

[habajiga]

No Choice Scarf set. There honestly just isn't that much of a reason to use it, the whole point behind Hydreigon is wall breaking and Scarf can't do that.

For the last slot on the first set I'd go: Superpower / Roost / Flash Cannon. Focus Blast hits stuff you want to hit w/ crap accuracy while not really damaging Chansey, so that should be dropped. Roost is a strong option imo because you want this to come into Aegi SBall and such and stay healthy, and Flash Cannon hits Clefable.

You need a Fairy-types section in C&C, especially including Azumarill and Clefable. These Pokemon are the biggest bane to it as they wall it (outside of Flash Cannon for Clefable) and can hit it with 4x SE attacks.

Fast mons need to mention Fighting-types...especially Keldeo in addition to Terrak/maybe Infernapez

Fixed :]

 

[boltsandbombers]

The nature on the choice specs set should be changed to modest and not mild IMO, as the only physical move on the set slashed is u-turn which is meant just for momentum and not damage.

Edit: Since you have choice specs as its own set, life orb should be the only item on the 1st set.

 

[habajiga]

The nature on the choice specs set should be changed to modest and not mild IMO, as the only physical move on the set slashed is u-turn which is meant just for momentum and not damage.

Edit: Since you have choice specs as its own set, life orb should be the only item on the 1st set.

Oh sorry, didn't even notice that. Fixed.

 

[Jukain]

Oh no Specs either! Choice items are bad for Hydreigon because it can't take advantage of its great coverage as well and becomes much more exploitable.

 

[boltsandbombers]

Oh no Specs either! Choice items are bad for Hydreigon because it can't take advantage of its great coverage as well and becomes much more exploitable.

So you think that there should be just the life orb set?

 

[TrulyDevious]

imvho the Choiced sets are actually good on Hydreigon, it is mainly a wallbreaker with excellent coverage and although it becomes more exploitable, I really don't mind since Hydreigon's offenses are stellar and he can do his main job, but again his stellar movepool serves him well, being able to bluff and threaten many mons which he was very much feared for last gen. Also, unlike most choice users, he is not very one-dimensional and predictable.

$0.02

 

[alexwolf]

Specs Hydreigon is definitely not bad on Hydreigon. Offensive and balanced teams without Clefable or AV Azumarill can't avoid getting wrecked by it, and this is just with spamming Dark Pulse (and AV Azumarill is both easy to wear down and to wall, so it's not a big deal). And if the opponent has a Dark-resist other than the aforementioned Pokemon, you just need to predict once to OHKO them (Tyranitar with Focus Blast or just 2HKO with DM and SR up, Keldeo, Terrakion, and Greninja with Draco Meteor, Mandibuzz is OHKOed from DM with SR up, Mega Mawile is OHKOed by Fire Blast, takes 40% minimum from Dark Pulse, and is 2HKOed by Dark Pulse if it hasn't already MEvolved, Bisharp is 2HKOed by Dark Pulse and OHKOed by Fire Blast). So with just your STABs, you OHKO-2HKO 95% of the metagame, and you have coverage moves for the other 5%. Even Clefable is easily 2HKOed by Fire Blast, so if you predict it coming once, you can later spam Dark Pulse without worries or take advantage of the weakened Clefable with other Pokemon. Only Chansey can reliably wall Specs Hydreigon, and even then it is taking 41.5% damage on average from Focus Blast.

tl;dr Specs Dark Pulse is a very strong and easy to spam nuke, which makes Specs a good option on Hydreigon.

 

[Jukain]

It's not just that. It's also the likes of Mawile/Keldeo/Terrakion that can take advantage of Hydreigon locked into a move. AV Azumarill/Clefable are counters, obviously. I feel like there's incessant prediction involved with a Specs set, and it doesn't beat anything new WHILE being exploitable because it has to lock itself into a move. Like why would I want to predict around Mawile when I can use anything and then Fire Blast its face. I can do a lot to Chansey with Superpower. I can heal with Roost. Life Orb Hydreigon is simply more versatile in utilizing its coverage while not losing to anything vs Specs, so Specs is really pointless.

If anything, Scarf could be ok considering it can actually revenge kill some good stuff, like DD Zard X, +2 Mawile, Thundurus, Keldeo, Latis, weakened MGyara, Dragonite, etc and has U-turn to boot. Want other opinions on this, probably should just go with the one LO set but it's worth considering.

 

[alexwolf]

It's not just that. It's also the likes of Mawile/Keldeo/Terrakion that can take advantage of Hydreigon locked into a move. AV Azumarill/Clefable are counters, obviously. I feel like there's incessant prediction involved with a Specs set, and it doesn't beat anything new WHILE being exploitable because it has to lock itself into a move. Like why would I want to predict around Mawile when I can use anything and then Fire Blast its face. I can do a lot to Chansey with Superpower. I can heal with Roost. Life Orb Hydreigon is simply more versatile in utilizing its coverage while not losing to anything vs Specs, so Specs is really pointless.

If anything, Scarf could be ok considering it can actually revenge kill some good stuff, like DD Zard X, +2 Mawile, Thundurus, Keldeo, Latis, weakened MGyara, Dragonite, etc and has U-turn to boot. Want other opinions on this, probably should just go with the one LO set but it's worth considering.

The point of Specs is to take advantage of really spammable moves, and Dark Pulse is very spammable. I really don't feel like explaining why Specs > LO on a lot of scenarios, especially when one of the best special attackers in OU frequently uses Specs (Keldeo), even though it becomes more difficult to counter with LO (hint: both Pokemon have good defensive utility even though they are purely offensive Pokemon). As i already mentioned, Mawile is a shitty check that can't even avoid the 2HKO from Dark Pulse if it hasn't MEvolved yet and takes ~40% if its MEvolved. And Terrakion and Keldeo are OHKOed by DM, hardy a situational move, so using this as a reason to justify Specs being bad could also translate to Specs Keldeo being bad because Specs Hydro Pump can be taken advantage by Latios, Latias, Dragonite, etc. I won't argue about this anymore, but so far your reasoning for rejecting Specs has been very shitty.

 

[Jukain]

Hydreigon has Roost for longevity if you want it, I don't see why a Specs set is needed for that. Keldeo has no recovery, and the power from Specs is actually extraordinarily useful for it as compared to a Life Orb allowing it to achieve numerous KOs. Keldeo also has a high BP, easily spammable move that it hardly has to predict to use, and covers most everything between two moves, so it's not like it has this amazing coverage it's taking advantage of. Whatever you say, Dark Pulse is nowhere near as spammable as Keldeo's Scald or Hydro Pump. Draco Meteor is not spammable, logically. You don't feel like explaining what Specs is so necessary for but so far have provided zero reasoning to use it over Life Orb. It's not even that Specs is that bad in a vacuum, but besides longevity (which can be addressed with Roost) there is no reason to use it over Life Orb.

 

[alexwolf]

Hydreigon has Roost for longevity if you want it, I don't see why a Specs set is needed for that. Keldeo has no recovery, and the power from Specs is actually extraordinarily useful for it as compared to a Life Orb allowing it to achieve numerous KOs. Keldeo also has a high BP, easily spammable move that it hardly has to predict to use, and covers most everything between two moves, so it's not like it has this amazing coverage it's taking advantage of. Whatever you say, Dark Pulse is nowhere near as spammable as Keldeo's Scald or Hydro Pump. Draco Meteor is not spammable, logically. You don't feel like explaining what Specs is so necessary for but so far have provided zero reasoning to use it over Life Orb. It's not even that Specs is that bad in a vacuum, but besides longevity (which can be addressed with Roost) there is no reason to use it over Life Orb.

So Keldeo has a high powered move that it hardly needs predict to spam? I can't see how this is true when there are multiple Water-resists that can take advantage of Hydro Pump (already mentioned some). Not to mention that Hydreigon has an even more powerful move that is has a similar number of relevant resists. Dark Pulse + Draco Meteor covers everything except from Fairy-types, so Hydreigon's STABs provide way better coverage than Keldeo's STABs, so again i don't get your point. Oh and Dark Pulse is definitely more spammable than Hydro Pump, even if it's not that powerful, because of less resists and perfect accuracy (64% chance to 2HKO something is very unreliable, which is why smart people usually spam Scald). And i guess you want calcs (not that after you see them anything will change, but just so you can't say there aren't any relevant calcs):

• 252+ SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 294-348 (90.7 - 107.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
• 252+ SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 144-171 (37.3 - 44.3%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Getting an OHKO on Aegislash ~half of the time is very useful when considering that Aegislash can 2HKO Hydreigon after SR and a LO recoil with a combo of Sacred Sword + Shadow Sneak. The 3HKO on Heatran is immensely useful too, as you don't have to get to Superpower mindgames, which can be taken advantage of (while Specs Dark Pulse is way harder to take advantage of if the opponent's best response to Hydreigon is Heatran).

You also ask why would one want to use Specs for longevity when Hydreigon already has Roost. For two reasons. First, you need the coverage of the 4th move. Being able And second, you don't need to waste one turn healing, which is pretty big against fast paced teams, and allows for far better momentum control.

In general, the added power is very significant even though it may not seem so in theory, because it's really a thing that works better in practice. Specs may not deserve a slash on the main set, but it's definitely Set Details material.

I won't argue about this anymore

Eating my words atm.

 

[Jukain]

I'm okay with a mention.

 

[stage7_4]

Is it worth it to mention Focus Energy + Scope lens in Other Options (like in the UU version)?

It needs coverage moves BADLY (and you lose all hit and run viablility), but it is effectively Choice Specs without the choice and Draco Meteor without the side effects.

 

[trc]

critdreigon yn?

(n)

 

[LordGauss]

Is it worth it to mention Focus Energy + Scope lens in Other Options (like in the UU version)?

It needs coverage moves BADLY (and you lose all hit and run viablility), but it is effectively Choice Specs without the choice and Draco Meteor without the side effects.

It's nicer than critdra cus of better speed, bulk, base SpA, and amazing movepool. The crit set would be hilarious against stall because crit meteors and superpowers would dismantle most cores.

 

[TrulyDevious]

Is it worth it to mention Focus Energy + Scope lens in Other Options (like in the UU version)?

It needs coverage moves BADLY (and you lose all hit and run viablility), but it is effectively Choice Specs without the choice and Draco Meteor without the side effects.

Hydreigon sits at a pretty awkward Speed tier (too awkward to give up Naive and use Rash), and with powerhouses on every corner of OU, ot may have a hard time entering the spotlight.

 

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

hmm... not so sure on the LO spread. Does Kyurem-Black normally run max speed?