I really like Hax in UU,because of those 3 reasons:1) it can take the pink (and boring and overused) core really well, blissey does not stand a chance but slowbro can do some damage to it as it gets KO.2) Besides Hax, the only thing that Dragon Dances in UU is Kingdra, which is not powerfull enough. 3) It is a really god late game sweeper. 3) Like someone just said, fire types, like darmanitan, Victini and chand, can be used to set up. I think it should stay here, but lets see.
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np: XY UU Stage 2 - Light Em Up
- Thread starter kokoloko
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Or you could just run max Speed Jolly.
+2 Adamant gets a guaranteed 2HKO on Slowbro, whereas +2 Jolly only gets a 2HKO half the time. I'd say that's a pretty major factor for Haxorus.
SR secures the 2hko anyway though, and Kokoloko is right about the how important the extra speed is.
Point taken, kokoloko. Didn't really keep those Pokémon in mind, you're definitely right about them. Considering Haxorus has 147 Attack, it'll hit like a goddamn truck anyway and a Jolly Haxorus already has more Attack than a Modest Hydreigon's Special Attack.
Now, moving on to Haxorus itself as a Pokémon in UU: I've used this dragon at the very beginning of XY UU and it pulled off an incredible job as a sweeper and wallbreaker. My personal favorite was the Lum Berry DDer, which worked amazingly well in conjunction with a Steel-type and fellow Dragon-type Hydreigon. I think that's probably one of the best UU cores available right now: Haxorus/Hydreigon Dual Dragon. Haxorus can effortlessly dismantle the Pink Cores that plague Hydreigon, who afterwards just plows through the remaining opposition with its massive Special Attack. Similarly, Scarf Hydreigon can get rid of the many fast attackers that pose a problem for Swords Dance Haxorus, who, in turn, can shred the slower, bulkier threads to nothing.
I'm not really sure if Haxorus is healthy or unhealthy for the metagame; I'll have to do a couple more matches to decide on that, but I'm curious how UU will develop if Haxorus stays. All in all, one of the more interesting retests so far.
Now, moving on to Haxorus itself as a Pokémon in UU: I've used this dragon at the very beginning of XY UU and it pulled off an incredible job as a sweeper and wallbreaker. My personal favorite was the Lum Berry DDer, which worked amazingly well in conjunction with a Steel-type and fellow Dragon-type Hydreigon. I think that's probably one of the best UU cores available right now: Haxorus/Hydreigon Dual Dragon. Haxorus can effortlessly dismantle the Pink Cores that plague Hydreigon, who afterwards just plows through the remaining opposition with its massive Special Attack. Similarly, Scarf Hydreigon can get rid of the many fast attackers that pose a problem for Swords Dance Haxorus, who, in turn, can shred the slower, bulkier threads to nothing.
I'm not really sure if Haxorus is healthy or unhealthy for the metagame; I'll have to do a couple more matches to decide on that, but I'm curious how UU will develop if Haxorus stays. All in all, one of the more interesting retests so far.
I honestly think you just hit the nail in the head, Kyuzeth. Not exactly with the pink core part, but with the Dragon spam teams. That was actually my biggest issue with the Mence test (I ultimately went with UU based on its performance, but that was just because I hadn't seen Dragon spam at work). koko was saying that Hax's presence helped discourage Fire spam in a similar way as Mence did, but is its presence encouraging Dragon spam not a bigger problem? I guess you can say that Dragon isn't as spammable as Fire or Flying during Raptor's test due to the presence of Fairies, but you have to admit Dragons have actual ways of getting past Fairies with their super strong coverage...
We're obviously not gonna be seeing Outrage spam like in previous generations, but that doesn't mean Dragon spam wouldn't be a force to be reckoned with. Arguments against Dragon spam being good could skew from the fact that Scarf Shao still wrecks them—which wouldn't happen with Mence—but is that it?
The point is, there will come a time when we'll have to choose the lesser of two evils. Up until now Haxorus has been quite underwhelming to face, so before trying it out I'd be leaning towards UU, but I really think we're gonna have to draw a line at a point. The basis of the Haxorus not being fast enough and/or bulky enough to tear the meta a new one come from an offensive point of view, where Mence was clearly better seeing as it outsped Hydra and forced Mienshao to run Stone Edge to rk it, while Hax can be seen as deadlier from a defensive point of view due to being marginally stronger, having more reliable coverage for fairies, and most importantly, not having a 4x weakness.
In conclusion, time will tell what's gonna happen with the Dragon. Until then, we'll just have to make the most of its presence :P
We're obviously not gonna be seeing Outrage spam like in previous generations, but that doesn't mean Dragon spam wouldn't be a force to be reckoned with. Arguments against Dragon spam being good could skew from the fact that Scarf Shao still wrecks them—which wouldn't happen with Mence—but is that it?
The point is, there will come a time when we'll have to choose the lesser of two evils. Up until now Haxorus has been quite underwhelming to face, so before trying it out I'd be leaning towards UU, but I really think we're gonna have to draw a line at a point. The basis of the Haxorus not being fast enough and/or bulky enough to tear the meta a new one come from an offensive point of view, where Mence was clearly better seeing as it outsped Hydra and forced Mienshao to run Stone Edge to rk it, while Hax can be seen as deadlier from a defensive point of view due to being marginally stronger, having more reliable coverage for fairies, and most importantly, not having a 4x weakness.
In conclusion, time will tell what's gonna happen with the Dragon. Until then, we'll just have to make the most of its presence :P
Okay, after trying to prove Haxorus broken, I pretty much came to the conclusion that it isn't. It's kind of exactly like Infernape in that if it can setup completely, it's godly. However, in practice it's just bleh. I tried it in normal heavy offense and screen heavy offense with still no luck. Half of it is that heavy offense sucks in uu, but that's beside the point. If Haxorus really was that broken, it would carry its weight. I was able to setup at least one Dragon Dance or one Swords Dance every game, but very rarely did I ever get more than a kill (if that).
And then there's the fact that as a community, we just don't want to adapt. Some things you just really shouldn't adapt for, but I believe adapting for Haxorus is actually healthy for the metagame. Maybe not healthy, but an acceptable different. Things like defensive Hippowdon, Mega Aggron, Ice Beam/Rocky Helmet Slowbro should be used more on bulkier teams. It's not that bulkier teams auto lose; they don't. And you don't really have to go that far out of your way to accomplish this, which is my main point. Bulky offense should just be able to use its momentum to either never let it setup or simply revenge it with something right away. Heavy offense should never even let it setup.
I realize this is a complete 180 in my opinion of Haxorus, but I've finally seen the light. Haxorus should be UU.
And then there's the fact that as a community, we just don't want to adapt. Some things you just really shouldn't adapt for, but I believe adapting for Haxorus is actually healthy for the metagame. Maybe not healthy, but an acceptable different. Things like defensive Hippowdon, Mega Aggron, Ice Beam/Rocky Helmet Slowbro should be used more on bulkier teams. It's not that bulkier teams auto lose; they don't. And you don't really have to go that far out of your way to accomplish this, which is my main point. Bulky offense should just be able to use its momentum to either never let it setup or simply revenge it with something right away. Heavy offense should never even let it setup.
I realize this is a complete 180 in my opinion of Haxorus, but I've finally seen the light. Haxorus should be UU.
pokemonisfun
Banned deucer.
So here are 5 consecutive games I played with haxorus with the start randomly chosen.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-141958358
Here turn 11 I began to blow away a completely won game for me probably by being incredibly stupid and playing almost the worst moves against what I had no idea was an AV Empoleon. However Haxorus not being able to KO Sableye (just barely) and not being able to take a move from Empoleon from 100% (Empoleon must have used lots of spa probably max) while also not being able to OHKO Empoleon at +0 (I'm jolly) sort of made me think in this game Haxorus does not come close to broken.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-142823262
Here my opponent has no Dragon resist and they let their Gligar get weakened by a Knock off early without even getting a Defog in. They also let Snorlax get weakened which was one of the only things capable of taking a boosted hit. However my Haxorus couldn't KO Snorlax even after a boost and significant prior damage and although I managed a clean sweep with Haxorus it was definitely more because my opponent appeared completely unprepared (no priority, only one physical wall that Haxorus sort of sets up on, no dragon resists, no faster scarfer)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-142824405
Here I destroy a stall team (that has no dragon resist and no Haxorus counter to be honest) with my SD set (my haxorus in all these games is the sd dd dclaw eq lum jolly set). It was sort of hopeless from turn one they had no way to stand before both SD Luke and SD Haxorus along with other threats like Mega Absol (magic bounce) and Crocune (they lose to crocune bar crits from ampharos or their cune gets a crit on me multiple times). Even if my opponent had say a Granbull I am supremely confident that just piling on my duo SD users would make their team crumple. Perhaps Haxorus is appearing more broken?
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-142825984
I sort of lost respect turn 1 for my opponent as they appeared to be running a slow alakazam but honestly crocune just beats up their team badly. I didn't really use Haxorus but yeah crocune is great on the ladder at the moemnt. Perhaps this game shows Suicune mauls most of Haxorus' defensive checks since Suicune can't really be hurt by them and just starts to sweep.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-142827169
Here in this game I go crazy and forget that Galvantula resists electric I was planning to use Tbolt to get it in Infernapes (its scarf) U-turn range or if they switched megatoise in Tbolt would 2hko. But since Galv rsisted tbolt I sort of messed that up. Luckily they make horrible unexcusable plays agianst Mega Absol (honestly they should have just switched in megatoise on mega absol to have a very comfortable probably winning position) and blow their game away. One thing to notice though is how weak Haxorus is to sticky web.. Haxorus would have only had a real chance to sweep if megatoise was badly hurt before but luckily my team is sort of made with that in mind and forces megatoise to take in lots of moves so yeah I like. Pretty sure I still always had a chance with crocune anyways.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-141958358
Here turn 11 I began to blow away a completely won game for me probably by being incredibly stupid and playing almost the worst moves against what I had no idea was an AV Empoleon. However Haxorus not being able to KO Sableye (just barely) and not being able to take a move from Empoleon from 100% (Empoleon must have used lots of spa probably max) while also not being able to OHKO Empoleon at +0 (I'm jolly) sort of made me think in this game Haxorus does not come close to broken.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-142823262
Here my opponent has no Dragon resist and they let their Gligar get weakened by a Knock off early without even getting a Defog in. They also let Snorlax get weakened which was one of the only things capable of taking a boosted hit. However my Haxorus couldn't KO Snorlax even after a boost and significant prior damage and although I managed a clean sweep with Haxorus it was definitely more because my opponent appeared completely unprepared (no priority, only one physical wall that Haxorus sort of sets up on, no dragon resists, no faster scarfer)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-142824405
Here I destroy a stall team (that has no dragon resist and no Haxorus counter to be honest) with my SD set (my haxorus in all these games is the sd dd dclaw eq lum jolly set). It was sort of hopeless from turn one they had no way to stand before both SD Luke and SD Haxorus along with other threats like Mega Absol (magic bounce) and Crocune (they lose to crocune bar crits from ampharos or their cune gets a crit on me multiple times). Even if my opponent had say a Granbull I am supremely confident that just piling on my duo SD users would make their team crumple. Perhaps Haxorus is appearing more broken?
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-142825984
I sort of lost respect turn 1 for my opponent as they appeared to be running a slow alakazam but honestly crocune just beats up their team badly. I didn't really use Haxorus but yeah crocune is great on the ladder at the moemnt. Perhaps this game shows Suicune mauls most of Haxorus' defensive checks since Suicune can't really be hurt by them and just starts to sweep.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-142827169
Here in this game I go crazy and forget that Galvantula resists electric I was planning to use Tbolt to get it in Infernapes (its scarf) U-turn range or if they switched megatoise in Tbolt would 2hko. But since Galv rsisted tbolt I sort of messed that up. Luckily they make horrible unexcusable plays agianst Mega Absol (honestly they should have just switched in megatoise on mega absol to have a very comfortable probably winning position) and blow their game away. One thing to notice though is how weak Haxorus is to sticky web.. Haxorus would have only had a real chance to sweep if megatoise was badly hurt before but luckily my team is sort of made with that in mind and forces megatoise to take in lots of moves so yeah I like. Pretty sure I still always had a chance with crocune anyways.
Wtf AV Empoleon what cancer is this BS. Anyway on topic of Haxorus I found it has breathed life into HO in UU without being too destructive like Thundy or Crawdaunt. Its ability to setup on and destroy/pressure common defensive cores is amazing, but thanks to the speed boost provided by Dragon Dance it can fare well against offensive cores/teams as well, even if it struggles to keep up with fast scarfers w/o 2 boosts (part of why I don't think Hax is broken). Its synergy with the Fighting types like Luke/Nape to weaken each other's check/counters is cool too. While it isn't like HO is all of a sudden super-viable in UU atm with Hax running around, but it certainly helps.
Haxorus speed isn't atrocious, but it doesn't hit the base 100s, the common Scarf Hydreigon revenge kill him when he gets a DD up.
252 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 120 HP / 0 SpD Haxorus: 554-654 (171.5 - 202.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Dragon Pulse does 112%. Haxorus is not broken. It's defenses are not that good. A decent-powered move will OHKO it.
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Slowbro: 262-309 (78.9 - 93%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Special Attacking Slowbro can kill it. Empoleon can kill it. Without Lum berry, as it sets up a DD, it can be burned by Scald, by WoW users, etc. With LO it has recoil. WoW+LO+SR means that Haxorus won't have too long. Haxorus just isn't fast enough and it can't set up easily.
Salamence can go mixed, it has a higher speed, Moxie or Intimidate, and it can also Dragon dance. SD and CB are Haxorus' niches, and those are easily, EASILY revenge-killed.
tl;dr: Haxorus is NOT fast enough to be BROKEN.
phantom
Banned deucer.
So I just started getting into UU and I have to say that it beat my expectations as to how good it would be. This tier is very balanced and just about everything can work, which is great. I find that the idea of removing the outliers and then retesting them (UU's tiering system) to be a good idea and much better than a lot of critics make it out to be. A metagame that's always balanced is really easy to get into, and contrary to what others have said, so long as the Pokemon that's being tested isn't broken, then UU doesn't really change all the drastically in the course of the very test. Now, this segues into my next point in that I'd like to talk about the current suspect.
Haxorus's power and coverage are phenomenal no doubt, and if it sets up it's the scariest shit ever, but here's were the problem with Haxorus lies imo: setting up makes it a dangerous Pokemon, but the issue is actually trying to set up and make use of the boosts for more than three turns, which almost never happens in practice. I didn't specifically prepare for Haxorus, and I found that just about everything on my team can either A) severely damage / cripple it to the point where setup is risky or B) weaken it to the point where I can revenge kill it with my Scarf / Priority user. Granted, stall teams are going to struggle with SD variants, but those aren't exactly too hot against offense due to its middling Speed, so it makes the set a bit matchup dependant, so by using the set, you're running the risk of it not being able to perform as consistently against all types of playstyles just like the rest of your team. Even if for w/e reason it was able to set up vs offense (Good luck with that!), just about every scarfer can pick it off, Mienshao's HJK, Hydreigon's Draco Meteor, etc, and there's more than enough priority to snipe Haxorus too, such as Absol's Sucker Punch, Entei's ExtremeSpeed and so on. Its Speed is probably the biggest downfall, simply because unlike Salamence, it can't outspeed one of the most important Scarf users at +1 (Hydreigon) and it doesn't have the bulk to force other common Scarf users to revenge kill it via suboptimal moves as opposed to their STABs. Between its above average-ish Speed and so-so bulk, I don't find it a problem to keep Haxorus from setting up or even stopping it when it does so.
I ran the SD set under Sticky Web and that was probably the most effective its been in my experience. I basically needed a stallbreaker on my team, and Haxorus could also take advantage of the extra Speed to not be revenge killed as easily. Even against opposing stall, setup was difficult. I had to make sure to keep Lum intact in order to comfortably set up on Blissey, and even when I did get the chance to set up, there were things that could stand in its way like Ice Beam Slowbro, Hippowdon, Mega Aggron, etc. The same problem kept on reoccurring was that it just couldn't set up all too safely. My opinion is that stall should almost always use a Fairy and a fat Steel, so between those two kinds of Pokemon and other physical walls thrown in the mix (to bait out Outrage for instance), Haxorus isn't going to be setting up without a fight, and it is possible to prevent it from getting more than one kill per game. I feel that while Haxorus is a definite threat for defensive builds, it's not impossible to deal with and there are good enough ways to adapt to it without running obscure Pokemon, but rather, simply switching out a move or two on a select few walls to better handle it.
tl;dr
Dragon Dance sets have difficulty actually setting up vs offense even then, it can't pull of a very easy sweep when setup is attainted anyway.
Haxorus is just sorta average vs offense and the SD set (the one that supposedly rips open stall) is a tad matchup dependant unless you run it with the right support, which is a bit disappointing imo.
Defensive builds can actually pressure Haxorus due to its average bulk and can bait out Outrage, thus allowing a Fairy / Steel to handle it. It isn't a hard Pokemon to play around due to the drawbacks affiliated if it uses Outrage or the significantly lower damage output if it goes for Dragon Claw.
All in all, Haxorus just doesn't seem broken from my perspective and fits like a glove in UU.
Haxorus's power and coverage are phenomenal no doubt, and if it sets up it's the scariest shit ever, but here's were the problem with Haxorus lies imo: setting up makes it a dangerous Pokemon, but the issue is actually trying to set up and make use of the boosts for more than three turns, which almost never happens in practice. I didn't specifically prepare for Haxorus, and I found that just about everything on my team can either A) severely damage / cripple it to the point where setup is risky or B) weaken it to the point where I can revenge kill it with my Scarf / Priority user. Granted, stall teams are going to struggle with SD variants, but those aren't exactly too hot against offense due to its middling Speed, so it makes the set a bit matchup dependant, so by using the set, you're running the risk of it not being able to perform as consistently against all types of playstyles just like the rest of your team. Even if for w/e reason it was able to set up vs offense (Good luck with that!), just about every scarfer can pick it off, Mienshao's HJK, Hydreigon's Draco Meteor, etc, and there's more than enough priority to snipe Haxorus too, such as Absol's Sucker Punch, Entei's ExtremeSpeed and so on. Its Speed is probably the biggest downfall, simply because unlike Salamence, it can't outspeed one of the most important Scarf users at +1 (Hydreigon) and it doesn't have the bulk to force other common Scarf users to revenge kill it via suboptimal moves as opposed to their STABs. Between its above average-ish Speed and so-so bulk, I don't find it a problem to keep Haxorus from setting up or even stopping it when it does so.
I ran the SD set under Sticky Web and that was probably the most effective its been in my experience. I basically needed a stallbreaker on my team, and Haxorus could also take advantage of the extra Speed to not be revenge killed as easily. Even against opposing stall, setup was difficult. I had to make sure to keep Lum intact in order to comfortably set up on Blissey, and even when I did get the chance to set up, there were things that could stand in its way like Ice Beam Slowbro, Hippowdon, Mega Aggron, etc. The same problem kept on reoccurring was that it just couldn't set up all too safely. My opinion is that stall should almost always use a Fairy and a fat Steel, so between those two kinds of Pokemon and other physical walls thrown in the mix (to bait out Outrage for instance), Haxorus isn't going to be setting up without a fight, and it is possible to prevent it from getting more than one kill per game. I feel that while Haxorus is a definite threat for defensive builds, it's not impossible to deal with and there are good enough ways to adapt to it without running obscure Pokemon, but rather, simply switching out a move or two on a select few walls to better handle it.
tl;dr
Dragon Dance sets have difficulty actually setting up vs offense even then, it can't pull of a very easy sweep when setup is attainted anyway.
Haxorus is just sorta average vs offense and the SD set (the one that supposedly rips open stall) is a tad matchup dependant unless you run it with the right support, which is a bit disappointing imo.
Defensive builds can actually pressure Haxorus due to its average bulk and can bait out Outrage, thus allowing a Fairy / Steel to handle it. It isn't a hard Pokemon to play around due to the drawbacks affiliated if it uses Outrage or the significantly lower damage output if it goes for Dragon Claw.
All in all, Haxorus just doesn't seem broken from my perspective and fits like a glove in UU.
I think the main issue with haxorus is that it needs the boosts to really sweep through teams, which is different from daunt and zone which obliterated most pokes, even dedicated walls. I think mence is different as well for its ability to go mixed and thus beat the pokes that could tank an outrage like slowbro or megaaggron. You can slap a choice band for more power, but steel types wall dragon and poison, fairys wall dragon and fighting and being locked into earthquakd is just asking for trouble.
If heracross were to get a sd boost with sticky web down, there really arent any safe switch ins who wont be obliterated by close combat megahorn and knock off.
Overall, im on the fence for hax.pressure from offense and physical walls like bro, mega aggron, aromatisse can beat unboosted hax, while hydreigon and priority users can check him. Even flygon can reliably check hax. The power and boosting moves are the only things really keeping me on the fence.
I guess im leaning more towards UU after discussing more. If any other poke were to get to +2 whether it is hera, krooko, its going to tear things up very quickly so whats the difference for haxorus?
If heracross were to get a sd boost with sticky web down, there really arent any safe switch ins who wont be obliterated by close combat megahorn and knock off.
Overall, im on the fence for hax.pressure from offense and physical walls like bro, mega aggron, aromatisse can beat unboosted hax, while hydreigon and priority users can check him. Even flygon can reliably check hax. The power and boosting moves are the only things really keeping me on the fence.
I guess im leaning more towards UU after discussing more. If any other poke were to get to +2 whether it is hera, krooko, its going to tear things up very quickly so whats the difference for haxorus?
One thing I'm curious about is Ernesto's point regarding Salamence; I don't necessarily think that Mence and Hax can't both exist in UU, but if upon the re-re-test it's discovered that Dragon Spam is too centralizing how will that be handled?
Regarding Venomoth, I'm excited for the re-test. I really didn't agree with the ban upon first glance just because of the suddenness but understood it more as time went on, but there's a good bit more priority in the tier now to cut short quiver-sweeps.
Regarding Venomoth, I'm excited for the re-test. I really didn't agree with the ban upon first glance just because of the suddenness but understood it more as time went on, but there's a good bit more priority in the tier now to cut short quiver-sweeps.
Hax is UU!!! <3
Anyways onto Venomoth, I feel this thing will be banned as even with the new Baton Pass clause in effect, Venomoth can still pass its boost onto a threatening Pokemon that is too slow, such as Chadelure or Nidoking, or Pokemon that are too weak, such as Noivern (which needs to gtfo of UU and go to RU). This is because the clause allows one poke with Baton pass on the team. Venomoth is able to easily get boosts as with a somewhat decent defensive typing, and Tinted Lens, it can even sweep the opponent itself. And any true check / counter Venomoth has, it can just Baton Pass to a threatening Pokemon that ends up finishing off the opponent.
tl;dr Venomoth is BL. 'nuff said.
Anyways onto Venomoth, I feel this thing will be banned as even with the new Baton Pass clause in effect, Venomoth can still pass its boost onto a threatening Pokemon that is too slow, such as Chadelure or Nidoking, or Pokemon that are too weak, such as Noivern (which needs to gtfo of UU and go to RU). This is because the clause allows one poke with Baton pass on the team. Venomoth is able to easily get boosts as with a somewhat decent defensive typing, and Tinted Lens, it can even sweep the opponent itself. And any true check / counter Venomoth has, it can just Baton Pass to a threatening Pokemon that ends up finishing off the opponent.
tl;dr Venomoth is BL. 'nuff said.
Its really moot because moth teams pre-ATV ban never needed to run another passer other than Venomoth itself. Also what is not mentioned is moth's ability to dgaf abt taunt with wonder skin.
I wholeheartedly agree. What I am saying is with Tinted Lens, it can sweep itself then pass the boosts off if it hits something it can't OHKO with said boosts, lol.
Turning every attempt to stop its boosts or to phaze it (excluding dragon tail) into a 50/50 really sits poorly with me. It's no swagger or king's shield, but creating a coin flip aspect from an ability/move rather than as a result of predicting what the venomoth user does...its wrong that outside of dragon tail you cannot develop a reliable plan of attack against it. As far as I can tell, the only way to prevent it from passing more than one QD boost is to have it take SR damage and use either some physical hitter with lum berry, or escavalier with overcoat. It's bad enough trying to predict whether it goes with sleep powder or QD when switching in an answer, though that at least I accept as legitimate in terms of out-predicting (Still does not make things any easier in dealing with the moth, mind you).
Really I'd just be happy to see it banned based on wonderskin taking skill out of the game, but I'm aware enough that more reason is needed for banning it.
Damnit why did I not think to double-check mechanic changes between generations? Well that argument is out the window. Thanks for the correction Mahmudipz
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Phazing moves ignore accuracy pass in Gen6 so Wonder Skin wouldn't work on that. The 50/50s that moth puts up is before Sleep Clause is activated whether it QDs or Sleep Powders. If it sleeps your Taunter or Phazer you'd be in trouble, and if you try to be cheeky and pull doubles to lure the Sleep Powder, you also put yourself at risk of Moth QDing more boosts in the process
Venomoth will be interesting to say the least. I personally never thought it broken. It doesnt have the power of zone or daunt, the coverage of thundy-t, the bulk of torn-t, but it is a good team supporter, who can pass quiver dance. But weaknesses to stealth rock, fire, psychic, flying and bug buzz having meh coverage between all the fighting, fire, fairy types all around..
We aloso saw an increase in fletch when volc and ape dropped. Sleep talk guts hera is pretty fun as well.
Oh yeah and we have blissey..
We aloso saw an increase in fletch when volc and ape dropped. Sleep talk guts hera is pretty fun as well.
Oh yeah and we have blissey..
Speaking of Blissey, Blissey is complete setup bait if Sleep Clause isn't up as you can freely Sleep Powder it without activating Sleep Clause thanks to Natural Cure. Most recipients of QD have ways to get pass Blissey by going mixed with Fighting moves easily like Hydra, Infernape or Nidoroyals, having strong Fighting coverage like Blastoise or powerful STAB Psyshock from Zammy. I don't see the issue here. Or QuiverPass to Xatu and CM until Stored Power KOs
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Sp def amoongus doeant care too much about venomoth and it can clear smog away the boosts and is immune to sleep powder. I give you a very solid counter. Even at +6 from modest moth its not a guaranteed ohko...
+6 252+ SpA Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Amoonguss: 415-490 (96 - 113.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
Sap sipper goodra with d tail can phaze out as well...
+6 252+ SpA Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 235-277 (61.1 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Base 90 speed isnt even that good when yo
consider that hard hitters like scarf darm amd tini are common. Back in gen v i had a quicerpass team and would run moth. While it is true that it can put a poke to sleep, it can be easily rk before passing the boost. Theorymoning aside well see how moth does in this meta...
Food for thought guys:
252+ Atk Fletchinder Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Venomoth: 408-482 (144.6 - 170.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Bulky Venomoth variants (we're talking about stuff like heavy HP/def investment) can actually tank an Acrobatics, but risk being KO'd with Spikes.
If a Pokemon has been put to sleep already, Fletchinder's mere presence can pressure Venomoth into being unable to setup and pass.
252+ Atk Fletchinder Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Venomoth: 408-482 (144.6 - 170.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Bulky Venomoth variants (we're talking about stuff like heavy HP/def investment) can actually tank an Acrobatics, but risk being KO'd with Spikes.
If a Pokemon has been put to sleep already, Fletchinder's mere presence can pressure Venomoth into being unable to setup and pass.
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