XY Ubers Refuto! The Wonder of Stall

My name is (x)Desch, also known as Piggeh, a former DM, a Mod of the glorius Heavenly Dragon Gods Clan and a good friend of the infamous Champion LANCE. I know my fair share of things in this match-up reliant metagame known as XY Ubers and have been playing it since it first came out. Unlike many others, I see this game as a gambling game. Since the begining of battles, a lot of factors come into play. A lot of the game itself, at high level, has massive amounts of prediction based play, also known as 50-50's. A high leveled XY Ubers match will be prediction after prediction, until one of the players are at such an (dis)advantage that the game is pretty much over.

Now, with that said, I have chosen to build a team based around something that most high-leveled players would reject as viable and never use at all, maybe with the exception of trolling the ladder, or having too much fun. The poke is more used with newer players trying to find "the ultimate strategy" or something, but still, I found some sort of appeal to this poke. With only 1 HP, and a total BST of less than 2.5 times the average Uber, Shedinja has his niches that he can easily abuse. The most obvious one being immune to all of Kyogre's (most used, viable and non-gimmicky) attacks. The other one being as a "check" to Xern in a way, only fearing HP Fire, but I will talk more about that later. Without further ado I'm giving you my team: Refuto! which translates into "Stall Untill You Die"

Team at Glance:


Team building history
I started out with Shedinja of course, as he's an interesting poke, I'd like to see the full potential of. His biggest weaknesses was Entry Hazards, Ho-oh, Zekrom, Kyurem-W, many Ground Types (with Rock covergae/Toxic) and Support Arceuses, due to the fact that they often carry a WoW or something. I wanted to create a stall team that could support and abuse Shedinja so with that in mind I selected my next teammates. I actually also started with a Phys Defensive Clefable as well to make a somewhat bizzare core. After using him very succesfully in the team "In Luck We Trust" ,that was given to me to rate and use, I really wanted to try him out some more.



I had a lot of thoughts in my head to support Shedinja, like SwagKeys or Gothitelle to have fun with support Arceuses, but I wanted to make a more stall based team. So I started with Aegislash and Giratina because I obviously still needed a back-up Xern check, just in case it could have HP Fire and something that could pursuit-trap Gengar. And I also desperatley needed Defog and an ok check to Ho-Oh. I didn't really like the thought that 'Tina had to rely on Rest to stay healthy, but I gave it the benefit of my doubt.


I wanted another Defog user, because dual Defog support doesn't look too out-of-this-world when using Shedinja, so I looked at the Arceus Formes and landed on Fairyceus.


I realized that 3 of my pokes was Ghost-Types and 2 of them was Fairy and the fact that they walled completely different things cracked me up a little bit. So with that weird type redundancy, I picked Yveltal, to somehow balance my weaknesses out.


Well, the team wasn't too bad, but It still had some flaws that I wanted to disappear. Clefable was cool, but he was too much Gengar bait and I gotta admit, Aegislash is not enough to make it ok, so I changed Clef into an Umbreon, because I liked the fact that he beats MMY + being a cleric that also has the excact same, good SpD and HP stat that Sylveon has, and the fact that he's not completely Gengar bait (fuck Reflect Type Gengar, really)


I looked some more on my team and still saw some unpleasent flaws. I rebuilt my team and made a lot of changes. I started with the triple Ghost core, but replaced Giratina with Salamence who did a much better job. Then I kept Umbreon.


I really wanted to add a Ferro in the team, seeing how a Zekrom could muscle his way through my team and on top of that, Volt Switch on Shedinja, breaking his Sash while also evading the burn. So I removed Yveltal and got the Iron Durain. Now I saw how weak I was at the physical side, so I wanted to add something that could handle some physical attackers and glue my team together some more. I opted for Arceus-Water with a lot of Deffense.


Finally, I got rid of Aegislash to get Heatran in. Since Shedinja walled GeoXern lacking HP Fire, I didn't like the fact that if he'd have that moce, he'd have the best coverage move against Aegislash, so assuming Geoxern don't use Focus Blast and HP Fire, Heatran and Shedinja would beat him. The team was finally optimized, showing the full potential of a stall based Shedinja team.

---
Not gonna make a doubble RMT here, but if you're interested, you can continue to read here to see how I remove Shedinja and convert the team into a more "standard" stall. Removing my main poke cause a lot of preoblems and chaineffects. I no longer have anything other than a "check" to Kyogre in Ferro and Waterceus and Heatran don't have the required support to beat GeoXern. The first obviouschanges would be to get a Ogre and a Xern check.

Aegislash and SpD Palkia do just fine in that regard. The structure of the team is kinda different now. It's still a solid team, but it lacks SR (didn't use it on Ferro), but I had 2 Defoggers which meant that I could change my Arceus Forme to either a more offensive poke, or as a Defogless supporter.

I needed some more physical defense, so I got back Clefable in Umbreon's place and canged Arceus to Ghostceus, so I would still have a cleric and could check what I wanted to check, beeing more physical attackers and MMY.

And that's a simplified version of how I got another viable stall team, but nore that this is not the team I'm showcasing here, it's more like an alternative you can use if you want to. Importable below.


Transcendant God (Shedinja) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Wonder Guard
EVs: 252 Atk
Adamant Nature
- Toxic
- Will-O-Wisp
- Baton Pass
- Phantom Force

This thing is extremely good... when given the proper support. Well sometimes he doesn't do anything other than dying, but thats because this game is so match-up reliant anyways. But the goal with this thing will be to get a safe switch-in on something, and then proceed to status their switch in. Just don't be desperate about getting him in the battle. Shedinja can use Baton Pass to scout for dangerous moves, like a random Toxic or Rock move that many pokes may have for different reasons, and it can also give me a lot of momentum, yes even stall can get good momentum. I will usually scout against Xern if he has the proper coveragemove he can handle a Shedinja with, knowing that he can always take a hit. I can usually know for a fact what set the Xern is running simply by going for the Baton Pass on him. Other times I use Baton Pass is to see which pokes that can actually hurt Shedinja, but statusing them is usually better, to slowly wear them down. The Focus Sash is also pretty nice because Shedinja can take a hit, and then pull off a clutch status inflicting move to cripple a big threat in a pinch, before eventually going down himslelf.

The last move is not really that improtant. Shedinja "needs" a way to actually attack, and would like to have a move that offers many PP, and would help him beat Baton Pass (lol), but I just went with Phantom Force, because it's a 2-turn move that can "waste" a total of 32 turns if neccecary. Also the EV spread is pure laziness. I feel that he don't want max speed, because it doesn't fit Phantom Force 'n stuff. I could if I want give him a negative Def nature to give Genesect a Attack boost, but I don't really care


RED (Heatran) @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roar
- Lava Plume
- Toxic
- Stealth Rock

At first I didn't think that I'd use SR on a team with Shedinja, 'cuz I thought it would be kinda counterproductive with the Defog Support I need. But Heatran had plenty of room for it, and it has worked great so far. Shedinja and Heatran makes a good core that will check GeoXern as long as it doesn't run HP Fire and Focus Blast, which is the least common combination of coverage move (in my experience), it's often the one or the other, but the suprize factor in this game is actually one of the biggest factors in the game, so it's not fool proof, just almost. But "the more weird things that is good agains a team, the better"

It's a really standard set, without Taunt, but still does a very good job at pressuring many of the supportive Arceus Formes and Fairy-Types. He is immune to both of the damaging status moves, which really helps Shedinja out a lot. He is also the only poke on my team that can deal with Klefki and oposing Ferrothorns in an effective way.


Imma Fly (Salamence) @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 220 Def / 40 Spe
Impish Nature
- Dragon Tail
- Roost
- Defog / Refresh
- Refresh / Toxic

I wanted a check to Ho-Oh, and I wanted a pretty damn good one as well, and this thing was just what I was looking for. After scrolling through this new thread called "Ubers teambuilding compendium" or something like that, I saw this thing on Ho-Oh Check/Swicth-in, and it really caught my eye.

Salamence can succesfully wall even CB Ho-oh without troubble and the LO or Toxic Ho-Oh is no different with my own set. I speedcreept up to around 100 Speed Ho-Oh, as I didn't want to waste more bulk in speed. Dragont Tail phazes, and Roost for recovery, Defog because why not and Refresh to keep statuses at bay and to lift off some pressure from my cleric. Intimidate is also really, really good in itself, because it let's me scout and help other teammates in defeating certain pokes like Blaziken, MMX, Arceus. Sadly, he can't pressure SR setters if less I remove Refresh or Defog, both which would put me at a disadvantage. This guy unfortunatley is a Fairy-Type magnet, but honestly, A Giratina would be no different and I still have 3 pokes that can deal with Fairies.


moonbase(d) (Umbreon) @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Wish
- Protect
- Foul Play
- Heal Bell

Umbreon is my 3rd unorthodox poke on my team. And I really gotta say that he's really underrated and should be used more. While he isn't immune to Dragon, like Sylveon, he's not complete Gengar bait and has one heck of a good ability in Synchronize. Umbreon deals with most SpA attackers, including MMY, which otherwise bothers this team and many stall builds in general. Once again I'd like to fit Toxic right here, but what can you do? Another seemingly weird thing I opted for on the set was 0 Speed EV's, but that allows me to "outslow" many other clerics (who usually carry Toxic) and be able to pull of my Heal Bell after they potentially have statused me, which is really good. The thing I don't like too much about him is that while "absorbing" statuses is nice, he struggles to Heal himself with Wish and be an effective cleric, but he's not bad at all. Seriously, Why has no one even mentioned this thing in the Ubers forums?


10Detta (Arceus-Water) @ Splash Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 248 HP / 164 Def / 96 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog / Refresh
- Will-O-Wisp
- Recover
- Judgment

My 2nd Defogger and physically defensive poke. With help from Salamence, he can beat a lot of physical attackers with his sheer bulk, with some additional help from status and a good STAB. I'm considering to give him Pixie Plate to deal better with Yveltal and Dragons, but the water forme is doing just fine and will do a more average job against the Ubers tier in general. It's a super standard set where I need 'Wisp to check some physical attackers, but I also really wish that I had room for Refresh. Oh well, at least he's still an ok switch in to Yveltal and has a good enough deffense overall, even in SpD. Not much more to say abot this 'mon, really.


Rocky (Ferrothorn) @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Leech Seed
- Protect
- Toxic
- Gyro Ball

I really wanted to fit Ferro in this team, the only reason being to handle Zekrom better (Terravolt hits through Wonder Guard!) and he’s also like a back-up check to Ogre. (You might think that it is stupid running Shedinja with a backup check to Ogre, but relying on Ferro to check Kyogre on stall, is just a bad idea and won't work...) Ferro also finishes my unintentional FWG core wich is quite effective and something you do not see too often in Ubers. Ferro does, like Heatran, beat many of the common Supportceuses and with Heatran, they pressure all of the standard formes.

And I finally have something that had room for every move I wanted him to have. Leech Seed is just extremely good, and Ferro's typing and ablity means that I don't have to rely on the standard "Fairy-Ground core" that Zekrom often forces to deal with him. As having a Fairy-Type other than GeoXern is, more often than not, total Gengar bait. When using this thing, try to not let it recieve status. Ferro really needs to be able to use his moves succesfully to work and also hates burns which limits his ability to continuosly check stuff. Ferro is really good with dealing with that pesky SpD Palkia set and other teams that don’t have much to hit him with. If you’re ”lucky” you can more than once in a battle pull of a free Leech Seed to mess around with your oponent. Just watch out foor random Fire Moves.


And there you have it, a team that is fun to use, and especially against good players, who thinks it is a joke team until they realize the situasion they're in. The team might seem like it struggles with sand teams, but I've never had an exceptionally hard time against them. My team has, like every other team, it's weaknesses, but as far as I know, this team should be able to play around it. The team fares fairly good against a lot of the threats in the meta. The more I think about it, the more I think that this is more like a showcase than a RMT, but I'm still open for suggestions.

Importables:

With Shedinja
Shedinja @ Focus Sash
Ability: Wonder Guard
EVs: 252 Atk
Adamant Nature
- Toxic
- Will-O-Wisp
- Baton Pass
- Phantom Force

Heatran @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roar
- Lava Plume
- Toxic
- Stealth Rock

Salamence @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 220 Def / 40 Spe
Impish Nature
- Dragon Tail
- Roost
- Defog
- Refresh

Umbreon @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Wish
- Protect
- Foul Play
- Heal Bell

Arceus-Water @ Splash Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 248 HP / 164 Def / 96 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog
- Will-O-Wisp
- Recover
- Judgment

Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Leech Seed
- Protect
- Toxic
- Gyro Ball

Without Shedinja:
Palkia @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Calm Nature
- Spacial Rend
- Hydro Pump
- Toxic
- Rest

Aegislash @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- King's Shield
- Toxic
- Shadow Sneak

Salamence @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 220 Def / 40 Spe
Impish Nature
- Dragon Tail
- Roost
- Defog
- Refresh

Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Wish
- Protect
- Heal Bell
- Toxic

Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Leech Seed
- Protect
- Toxic
- Gyro Ball

Arceus-Ghost @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 248 HP / 164 Def / 96 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Judgment
- Will-O-Wisp
- Recover
- Refresh
 
Let me say that this team is great for walling! I have never competed in Ubers, but i've seen a few matches long ago. What i can tell you is this thread makes good fair points:

- Umbreon should be used more often! I totally agree with you in regards to Umbreon -- poor thing doesn't get a
chance anymore. Perhaps people don't use it due to their fear of fairy-types? It still tanks well, though.
- Shedninja with Focus Sash is great. You get the chance to survive longer in battle, which is always great in terms
of counterattacking. I've seen people use this trick, but for some reason people have stopped using it.
- Arceus-Water should be given Pixie Plate, since you're not really concentrating with water moves in your set. I
recommend that you put Pixie Plate as you said in the OP, so that you can fend off against dragons.

My favorite part of the thread has to be putting your progress in a chronological order. Good job!
 

haxiom

God's not dead.
is a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Hey xDesch,

Nice team. I love the creativity of it all; the team is pretty cool in general. I do feel like the team sacrifices a little bit to make up for having some weird mons here, however that is often avoidable when you have a team of three very uncommon/underutilized mons. I feel like the team is flawed since at the core of it we have Shedinja, which is going to make the team inherently flawed imo, and here's why. I'm not trying to say that Shedinja=bad team, as this team is rather good, but I am saying that Shedinja=team that is not as good as it could be. At least that's how I feel. The reason is, of course, that it insta-loses to rocks. Against passive teams like stall, rocks are pretty easy to get down, which puts a ton of pressure on your defoggers to clear the field so as not to lose to certain threats. Because the cost of defogging is always going to be a lot greater than setting up rocks, it is going to give the opponent a lot of room to make something happen, either setting up or pressuring your defoggers until they break or something along those lines. You could argue that Ho-Oh is similar in the sense that it needs the fields clear, thus making what I just said applicable to that, but the difference is, Ho-Oh doesn't die instantly, and also provides a lot of offensive pressure itself, I suppose in a way equalizing the pressure you lose if that makes sense.

Lol I just wrote an entire paragraph about that. I'm going to get a bit more focused now.

The team is threatened by a few things. Note that I have to be kind of nitpicky, as the team is pretty solid. First of all, you mentioned that HP Fire+Fblast Xern was the only way to break through. This is true, or at least it would be if rocks didn't exist, because now rocks+Fblast Xern win, which I guess could be threatening. Another thing that could be annoying is Zekrom, not because it directly threatens the team though. I know that it is definitely countered by Ferrothorn. However, I feel Zekrom has the ability to pick up a ton of momentum off of this via volt switch, which lets the opponent bring something out for free since you are forced to Ferrothorn when it comes in. Strong fighting types can be annoying I guess, especially Ice Beam MMX, which will beat most of this team barring Shedinja if rocks are not up. Gengar is annoying with a lack of a pursuit user, since it can sort of beat Heatran and Ferrothorn, though iffy on those, however it does remove your support Arceus which is very much not good.

There are a few things I would do to fix things. Normally I would remove Shedinja but I will honor that you built the team around it and keep it. There is no way to beat the defog pressure easily, and I've argued that in the first paragraph already. The first suggestion I have is running Aegislash over Heatran. This gives you a few things. First of all, it gives you a solid Xerneas counter, so that you don't have to worry as much about rocks being down if there is a Xerneas alive on the other side. Secondly, it gives a pursuit trapper. Thirdly, it gives you a way to beat Ice Beam MMX better, since EQ+Ice Beam is less common I guess. You lose rocks, so move those to Ferrothorn. Then, since you cannot really stallbreak as effectively without Heatran, I suggest CM Refresh Waterceus, since Salamence is a solid check to physical attackers in general and carries defog. You lose a defogger which hurts, but losing to Fblast Xern can be annoying I guess. Even though you are now giving Ho-Oh more safe switches, Salamence+Waterceus should handle it reasonably well. Alternately, Chople Berry as the item on Heatran could accomplish similar things to the changes I proposed, although losing lefties is the cost. Either work I guess.

Arceus @ Splash Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 248 HP / 164 Def / 96 Spd- if you want you could creep to unevolved Gengar though
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Judgment
- Recover
- Refresh

Aegislash @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 SDef / 248 HP / 8 Atk
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- King's Shield
- Toxic
- Gyro Ball
- Pursuit


OPTIMIZATION:

Shedinja- I'd actually give Gene the SAtk boost since physical sets are better/more popular in Ubers, I don't really get the purpose of BP completely though

Heatran- Chople berry if you keep him

Salamence- Speed creep is normally okay, but running max defense is probably favorable since it makes Band Ho-Oh's 2HKO chance something like 2%

Umbreon- The IVs could be a double edged sword imo, since you heal bell after a status if you are slower, but you could die before you get it off against something that attacks you. Granted, you are slow enough that it doesn't matter much.

Waterceus- fine

Ferrothorn- fine


Good luck!
 

Disaster Area

formerly Piexplode
252 SpA Mega Mewtwo Y Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 214-252 (54.3 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
That's why. :] (I have tested it before now tho myself... hmm actually, wish+protect seems not too shabby - i might give this another look)
Earthquake would work nicely on Mence if you found room for it, to hit keys/blaze (+2 low kick does a ton to waterceus)/tran. No comment otherwise on this team, but thanks for re-poitong out umbreon (taunt vs wish+protect makes Mewtwo Y with focus blast arguably a bit of a pest, but it seems a nice check to it)
 
Thanks for the rates and comments so far! Starting with the first suggestions

The first one being Fairyceus. I did concider it, and it is still a poke that can be used in the team, but I have some reasons to not use him. Anit-leading Deo-a is important, and the water version does slightly better there due to the fact that Meteor Mash is a move that could potentially be used to take care of Fairy-Types, which would just destroys him. In addition, MMX could also run a suprizemove for Fairy's which would also ruin a bit of his role in the team, bein able to burn certain threats. Sure 'Mence coud handle them, but Ice Punch/Beam is something he has to watch out for. Lucario also gets another advantage against Fairyceus, because obvious STAB is obvious. The last reason I have for using him, is that the Water STAB I now have can one shot Blaziken (sort of like the Yveltal I used earlier could with O-Wing, which goes gor MMX as well), and it does good damage against Ho-Oh, Groundceus and Rockceus.

Haxiom, You are right that SR will instantly OHKO Shedinja (even tho I EV'd him to get an odd HP number) and that "passive teams like stall could easily get rocks down an pressure my defoggers or something. While that is true and important to note, espeially when using the team, against stall, Shedinja is often not that useful in the first place (Toxic everywhere) I could actually run Rest on Sheddy, just to be annoying and get more "safe" switch-ins, but, lol, that's where this would become gimmicky. Anyways as I said, this team can simply play without Shedinja at times, and oponents are often mislead to belive that scoring a KO on him is extremely important while it's not, so they might keep rocks, on their side as well, up. So by just keeping him alive, I can put my oponent at a "psychological advantage" which is another thing this thing provides. I dunno why, but even high leveled players have done that. Also, having 2 defoggers is in order to keep them from being worn down and make it harder for my oponent to pressure them. But yeah, it's still possible ofc and you really have to play carefully.

You also mention that GeoXern with Focus Blast beats this team with Rocks Down, which is true (if less it misses Heatran, lol) or maybe if I'm just not able to do a good enough job at scouting or keeping rocks at bay in general. I guess this is what you ment with putting pressure on the team, heh. Anyways, that is a big concern, I'd say you should just play around it, but... the oponent is, and should be well aware of the fact that I'd try to do that. So yeah, Aegislash would be good there as I first used, but I do lose a 'Wisp absorber and more importantly; a way to threaten Klefki. I still like Heatran, but I guess Aegislash could be more "reliable" (in the Xern regard) and still do an average job.

Your're also right about Zekrom getting mometnum which is annoying, hopefully you won't have to rely on predictions in case they have a dangerous poke that the rest of the team can't handle. But it is managable. Waterceus is supposed to do well against MMX, but with Taunt around, you never know. But he will take small amount of damage from his attacks, and with assist from 'Mence it should be ok. About the other suggestion you had, being stallbreaker Waterceus. I do like the doubble Defog support but this is one of the more reasonable suggestions I've gotten that I haven't thought a lot about. I'll do some slashings on the set to kinda include it. And creeping up to unevolved Gengar also seems like an ok suggestion, might do that. I also see how you're being a little nitpicky here, haha. I'll take it as a big pluss for my team! Also, if you truly want to know why BP is so good on Shedinja, you should try it out yourslef for a bit, if you get to use Shedinja a lot, you'll see why.

Ok, finally, about Piexplode's comment.. (I actually had a feel that you'd leave a comment on a team like this) Anyways, the calc you showed is somewhat relevant. But in my experince MMY often don't have tor ely on Fighting covergae to do his job, but that's not the main reason I don't really worry too much about it. Most players will use the more reliable Aura Sphere if they do choose to run that type coverage. That's at least how my experince of it is. Aura Sphere is 50% weaker than the blast, so yeah I can see why people would use F-Blast. but look at those calcs:

252 SpA Mega Mewtwo Y Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 144-170 (36.5 - 43.1%)
252 SpA Mega Mewtwo Y Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 214-252 (54.3 - 63.9%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal Doubble Leftovers recoery --- ok that's still not convincing, but...
0- Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Mewtwo Y: 350-414 (99.1 - 117.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

So yeah, it's really much to worry about, especially since Focus Miss only has that 49% chance to hit twice in a row, and factoring in that extra health Umbreon get's through Protect, he doesn't have to worry about it too much. But yeah, it's still a possibility. Umbreon usually swicthes in on Psystrike or a worse coverage move, tho. So Foul Play will still do the job. Even against Stalltwo, becuse they can only threaten with a 'Wisp that also backfires them.
And having EQ is another move that would be nice having on 'Mence, but he's still doing a good job.
 
Last edited:

Disaster Area

formerly Piexplode
Yeah I can see protect helping with umbreon, but yeah foul play gets done by stalltwo, if will-O hits [wisp will turn that chance to OHKO into a chance to 2HKO, and they have recover). But in my experience I've always run focus blast mewtwo Y, and it's generally accepted that it needs it to beat certain threats; aura sphere just doesn't cut it. But yeah, it's nice as an answer to non-stalltwo mewtwo, something like phys def ho-oh paired with it and you have mewtwo sorted.
 
Hey man, nice and creative team you have there. I can't really find any striking holes on that team. HOWEVER, like mentioned by someone else before, and I think I've told you this before aswell when we playtested your team; Your team falls apart to Xern if Rocks are up and Heatran is severely weakened. Furthermore, Again We come to the Rocks problem. If rocks are up Sala loses it's ability to check every ho-oh variant. Massive speedcrept or just Jolly CB ho-oh 2hko you easily.
 
Yeah I can see protect helping with umbreon, but yeah foul play gets done by stalltwo, if will-O hits [wisp will turn that chance to OHKO into a chance to 2HKO, and they have recover). But in my experience I've always run focus blast mewtwo Y, and it's generally accepted that it needs it to beat certain threats; aura sphere just doesn't cut it. But yeah, it's nice as an answer to non-stalltwo mewtwo, something like phys def ho-oh paired with it and you have mewtwo sorted.

Even burned Umbreon does way over half to Mewtwo with Foul Play. Mewtwo is handled easily
 

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