XY UU Viability Ranking Thread

[Meru]

I would put Granbull at B, as it definitely has a niche at walling Fighting- and Dragon-type attacks, as well as having Intimidate, which has general utility for stopping plenty of sweeps. Although it takes less damage from Haxorus than Aromatisse thanks to Intimidate, it is also unable to OHKO back, as it uses Play Rough to hit Haxorus's much more acceptable physical defense, making Aromatisse a more well-rounded early-game counter. It also has other perks such as Heal Bell, which is useful both for freeing up a slot on popular clerics that it pairs well with, such as Blissey, Umbreon, and Celebi/Mew. Sure it's limited by using Rest-Talk, but since Rest-Talk runs Heal Bell that can potentially get it out of Sleep faster, I'd hardly consider that a huge detraction from Granbull's viability. So altogether, B seems to be the best place for it, although B+ isn't a stretch for it now that Haxorus is definitely UU.

Definitely think hilarious should give some input, as he is one of the few people I've faced that has used it successfully.

 

[silenced]

Or alternatively, run roar on granbull for the restalk set to avoid being set-up fodder for other mons. Roar and play rough sounds good to me.

 

[DiscoDucky]

I think Granbull is fine where it is. RestTalk Granbull is a very good defensive counter and check to many of UU's Physical 'mons. To top it off, it has the benefit of having a really good Attack stat that allows it to simultaneously hit the aforementioned physical mons (Haxo, Infernape, Lucario, etc.) pretty hard.

 

[pokemonisfun]

Actuall I just copied Limitless but ok. Play Rough does so much in most reasonable cases Haxorus gets a one hit knock out anyways. I use the Rest Talk Heal Bell set with absolute max hit points and defense Impish because Granbull has pretty poor stats and relies on Intimidate. If you are using Grambull on stall like you should be, beware of status still because Granbull is a far worse cleric than Blissey and has few opportunities to use Heal Bell (and when it does the next turn it often must run away because low special bulk). It is possible to run a move like Earthquake or Toxic or Thunder Wave over Heal Bell but you need to have a cleric somewhere later. Granbull is one of stalls best SD Heracross responses and Play Rough can get a one hit knock out which is nice. Unfortunately even with Rest Granbull dies to pressure easily it's not like Blissey which if you use a good stall EV spread that has special defense it can counter NP Porygon Z Mega Houndoom and a Specs Hydreigon all in one game and be perfectly healthy still. If there is all of SD Heracross and Mega Absol and Haxorus Granbull is going to need Wish support to counter all three, it may not be able to even counter 2 if Leftovers gets knocked off quickly. However stall does have teammates and more physical walls so Granbull does not have to face so much pressure by itself usually, for instance in a pink core it is often with Slowbro which can sort of check Haxorus. Ultimately since Granbull is one of stalls best responses to Heracross and Haxorus and still have general utility as a cleric I would be happy to see Granbull in as high as A rank. I do not know how stall would function without this dog apart from Aromatisse.

I would put Granbull at B, as it definitely has a niche at walling Fighting- and Dragon-type attacks, as well as having Intimidate, which has general utility for stopping plenty of sweeps. Although it takes less damage from Haxorus than Aromatisse thanks to Intimidate, it is also unable to OHKO back, as it uses Play Rough to hit Haxorus's much more acceptable physical defense, making Aromatisse a more well-rounded early-game counter. It also has other perks such as Heal Bell, which is useful both for freeing up a slot on popular clerics that it pairs well with, such as Blissey, Umbreon, and Celebi/Mew. Sure it's limited by using Rest-Talk, but since Rest-Talk runs Heal Bell that can potentially get it out of Sleep faster, I'd hardly consider that a huge detraction from Granbull's viability. So altogether, B seems to be the best place for it, although B+ isn't a stretch for it now that Haxorus is definitely UU.

Definitely think hilarious should give some input, as he is one of the few people I've faced that has used it successfully.

 

[Jellicent's Garden]

I think Jellicent should drop to C+. This guy fares kinda decently against stall and can handle somewhat well threats like Infernape, but is hard to justify over some other bulky water like Slowbro or Suicune; his spinblocking capabilities are a bit obsolete because of the presence of Defog, and not to mention that he loses miserably to the premier spinblocker of the tier, Mega Blastoise, and things that otherwise could counter because of immunity to their STAB, like Heracross or Mienshao, now can Knock Off him to the dome. All in all he's not a bad mon on paper but in practice has a lot of flaws that make hard fullfilling his strategy, so that's why I think he should drop to C+, or even lower.

 

[TheTraininator]

I think Jellicent should drop to C+. This guy fares kinda decently against stall and can handle somewhat well threats like Infernape, but is hard to justify over some other bulky water like Slowbro or Suicune; his spinblocking capabilities are a bit obsolete because of the presence of Defog, and not to mention that he loses miserably to the premier spinblocker of the tier, Mega Blastoise, and things that otherwise could counter because of immunity to their STAB, like Heracross or Mienshao, now can Knock Off him to the dome. All in all he's not a bad mon on paper but in practice has a lot of flaws that make hard fullfilling his strategy, so that's why I think he should drop to C+, or even lower.

It's funny to see you advocating for a Jellicent drop. I guess that's how you know it's needed, haha.

 

[Sage]

In writing Granbull's teambuilding analysis I did some calcs on how strong it is. I found with an EV spread of 16 Adamant kinda like what Rhyperior ran last gen, and stealth rocks, it OHKOes nearly everything its supposed to counter or check. I'm supporting it for B+ as it can force out all these counters in fear of being killed something other physical walls like Big Luvdisc can't do. Also cleric support is very useful for any team, and is truly one of the best support moves in the game. So I'm just gonna put a couple calcs up and show that maybe we should be running this spread.

16+ Atk Granbull Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 276-326 (94.1 - 111.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
16+ Atk Granbull Play Rough vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heracross: 320-380 (105.9 - 125.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
16+ Atk Granbull Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flygon: 306-360 (101.6 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
16+ Atk Granbull Play Rough vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Krookodile: 306-360 (92.1 - 108.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (no intimidate but most likely ladder player has scarf Krook)
16+ Atk Granbull Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sableye: 320-378 (105.2 - 124.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO (sleep talk Play Rough= no burn)
16+ Atk Granbull Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kingdra: 266-314 (91.4 - 107.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

EDIT: Changed to A- as it also is one of the only mons giving stall a reliable answer for Haxorus

 

[MQJinx]

I'd put Granbull somewhere in the B rankings, as mentioned before checking physical attackers like Haxorus with its bulk and Intimidate is a plus.

Jellicent should drop, faces competition from other bulky waters, is vulnerable to status and Knock Off, and can't spinblock Mega Blastoise

Also, Shiftry for C- Rank. Despite facing competition from Cacturne and Absol as an SD Sucker Punch user it can distinguish itself with Knock Off and Grass STAB for bulky waters, and is also faster than Cacturne.

 

[Limitless]

Granbull is moving up to A- rank, while Jellicent is moving down to B- rank. I could see it in C+ rank, but it's fine there for now.

The next two Pokemon up for discussion are Machamp and Mismagius.

 

[Shy Glizzy]

Mismagius should go to B. It's not amazing, but it's still a viable option. It's best set is SubCM, where it can set up on (some of) the bulky waters that Chandy can't. I lost my actual ev spread, so let's just say Max SpA with enough speed to outrun 100+, and the rest in HP:

4 SpA Suicune Scald vs. +1 40 HP / 0 SpD Mismagius: 51-61 (18.8 - 22.5%)
4 SpA Milotic Scald vs. +1 40 HP / 0 SpD Mismagius: 57-67 (21 - 24.7%)
0 SpA Swampert Scald vs. +1 40 HP / 0 SpD Mismagius: 49-58 (18 - 21.4%)

A big minus, however is that it still loses to Mega Blastoise and Slowbro due to their coverage moves. Aside from those, it still sets up on the same stuff Chandy does (Blissey, Amoongus, etc) but loses out on Fairies and choiced Fire types that SubCM Chandelure takes advantage of. However, Mismagius is immune to spikes and tspikes, and takes on neutral damage from SR. It's also immune to sticky web. Mismagius can also tank a scarf Hydra Dark Pulse at +1 (or simply stay behind a sub) and OHKO back with Dazzling Gleam. Those factors are enough to give it a niche over Chandelure for some teams. B rank is a good fit.


As far as Machamp goes, I have literally never seen it used by a player that didn't completely suck so idk

 

[pokemonisfun]

I've never used Machamp nor do I plan to because Dynamic Punch isn't reliable enough for my tastes. But I do know that the Machamp sets are nearly always No Guard with Dynamic Punch Knock Off Stone Edge Bullet Punch and lots of Attack and HP EVs. Frankly I think there is too much competition for it Heracross hits far quicker and decently harder (much harder with SD) and has similar bulk with arguably better typing (Flying moves still kill Machamp, Fire moves usually kill Machamp because they are sort of OP now, Rock resist is nice but Megahorn with STAB is /really/ nice). Heracross is A+ so I would be fine seeing Machamp stay where it is a full letter below to B+.

 

[RyanKoopa]

I have no experience with Mismaigus, so I can't say for certain what ranking it should be.

Machamp on the other hand should be B. It's perfectly viable, with No Guard Dynamic Punch being it's biggest niche, but it dosen't really stand out a ton. This is the same for other B mons like Flygon and Swampert, and I think Machamp fits well in the same rank as those two.

 

[Limitless]

Machamp is moving down to B- rank, while Mismagius is moving down to C+ rank.

The next two Pokemon up for discussion are Noivern and Tangrowth.

 

[Jaguar360]

Noivern is still quite good. It is a great Infernape check, able to switch into any attack it has other than Stone Edge and revenge kill non-Scarf Infernape. The presence of Blissey and Florges is bad for it, but even the strongest special attackers have a hard time with them for the most part. Goodra is also kind of bad for it, but it will still do 63-75% damage to Assault Vest Goodra with Specs Draco Meteor. Life Orb Draco Meteor will also do at least 55% damage, while Dragon Pulse does over a third of damage to it. Noivern has a good chance of dying to a +2 Extremespeed from Lucario, so it can't really revenge kill it well, but a Flamethrower, Hurricane or Focus Blast will kill it, so that matchup is kind of a stalemate. Noivern's excellent speed puts it ahead of Alakazam and Starmie and lets it outspeed most of the non-Scarfed metagame except for Aerodactyl and Crobat. The Choice Specs set also allows it to greatly cripple a Blissey switchin if it needs to.
The B rank description fits Noivern, as it competes with Hydreigon as a specially offensive dragon and cannot sweep through significant portions of the metagame, but its speed and Flying STAB give it a great niche. It seems to fit with both the Pokemon in B and B+, but I'm going to vouch for it to stay in B+.

 

[Sleepless]

While Noivern has versatility in STAB Hurricane/Air Slash and the coveted Boomburst, it mainly uses STAB Dragon type move and Flamethrower. Having great competition from Crobat, as a fast Taunter, Noivern is mainly used to hit hard with LO and utilize it's unique resistances to Fire and Water(as a special attacker, it cares less about scald burns) while also resisting like Crobat to Fighting, Grass, Bug and immunity to Ground. While simultaneously it being rather outclassed by Hydreigon as hard hitting Dragon, it does have a combined set of niches to set it apart from both S and A ranked Pokemon such as, great speed tier to outspeed the omnipresent Zam (and maybe breaking sash with U-turn) without resorting to Scarf like Hydreigon, Switcheroo combined with Specs, ability to surprise tanks with Super Fang, nice abilities in Frisk to scout and Inflitrator to fry Jirachi hiding behind subs, access to Moonlight so some of it's key resistances won't be lost upon roosting unlike Crobat. All in all, I think it deserves either B+ or B.

 

[Meru]

Noivern has always been a cool offensive 'mon with good resists to stop sweeps and sky high speed to outpace anything in the tier bar Scarfers and Crobat and Mega Aero actually smart enough to invest enough EVs. It suffers from being too weak to effectively wallbreak, but there are plenty of other options for that job. I think its unique ability to not lose as much momentum as a Scarfer while still acting as one gives it good merit at B or B+

Tangrowth on the other hand... this thing seems relatively outclassed. I'm not gonna bother to list exactly why each one outclasses it but between Virizon, Shaymin, Roserade, Celebi, Chesnaught, Whimsicott, Rotom-Mow, and especially Amoonguss, I'm hard-pressed to see how this thing even has a niche, especially when the top two physical wallbreakers right now are Victini and Heracross. Definitely belongs in the low low C ranks, if not just flat out D

 

[Sleepless]

I'm hard-pressed to see how this thing even has a niche, especially when the top two physical wallbreakers right now are Victini and Heracross. Definitely belongs in the low low C ranks, if not just flat out D

While I agree it belongs in the low C or even D ranks, I believe it's niche was mixed AV attacker, with access to Knock Off and recovery via Regenerator.

 

[xMarth]

I'm just gonna talk about Stallbreaker Noivern cause thats its best set and the only one I have experience using. Noivern plays a lot like Crobat being very good in the mid/late game thanks to its high speed. Noivern can check quite a few pokemon found on offensive teams with a decently powerful Draco Meteor like Victini, Heracross, Mienshao, non-scarfed Hydreigon, and Infernape just to name a few. Even though Noivern doesn't have much power it can still pull its weight against defensive teams because of Taunt. This lets it create easy set-up opportunities for sweepers like Lucario and Haxorus that can easily switch in on say Seismic Toss from Blissey and proceed to set-up without the fear of status. Noivern is pretty much hard countered by any Fairy type which doesn't bode well for it, also the Spa drops from Draco Meteor really hamper its cleaning abilities. I would like to see Noivern be A- rank because I love it but B+ rank is probably a very good fit for it.

 

[Meru]

the man's avatar is a fucking noivern

 

[Kushalos]

Tangrowth for C

It's access to Knock Off and having great phys defense is cool but imo something like Amoonguss is better due to its typing(can take on Mienshao a lot better) and because of its superior special defense(can switch into Florges). It also has Foul Play over Tangrowth, to punish Jirachi and a dangerous setup sweeper like Haxorus:

+2 0- Atk Amoonguss Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 272-321 (92.8 - 109.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Not to mention Spore>>>>>Sleep Powder

 

[dingbat]

Tangrowth should drop to C rank. Its niche over the other grass types is the fact that it sports a much greater mixed offensive presence compared to Roserade and Shaymin that don't go mixed and Amoonguss which doesn't have that much offensive presence outside of super effective hits and Foul Play. However, those forementioned grass types have much greater advantages over Tangrowth, such as better speed and other utilities such as Spikes or a more accurate Spore to name a couple, and even when using the LO mixed special based set, it's still usually more of a liability on a team than what it can make out, especially with all these new threats on the loose (hell, even Goodra).

 

[Skankovich]

I can vouch for stallbreaker Noivern too, it plays the same as Crobat except with a different set of resists- it's handy to check the tier's multiple fire types and as a special attacker with a water resist it's a nice switch in to bulky waters. It also has Frisk, which is a really useful ability on a pivoty mon.
Overall it doesn't pull the role off as well as Crobat, but it's still great for certain teams. It still has its typical specs or life orb sets too, so its got enough going for it to stay B+ imo.

 

[Limitless]

Noivern is staying at B+ rank, while Tangrowth is moving down to C+ rank.

The next two Pokemon up for discussion are Tentacruel and Trevenant.

 

[canasian]

I think Tentacruel could stay B+, or possibly drop to B due to hefty competition. It can be tough to fit onto stall and balance teams since they already have so many options for bulky waters (Slowbro, Suicune, Alomomola, Swampert), but Toxic Spikes and Rapid Spin are incredible utility that those teams benefit from. It lacks reliable recovery but it happens to pair beautifully with two of the best wish-passers in the tier (Blissey and Aromatisse).

It also arguably handles the fighting-types of the tier better than Slowbro, since it isn't weak to their bug- and dark-type coverage, but doesn't do as well againt fire-types with a weakness to Darm's earthquake and lacking regenerator to stomach Bolt Strike, and it's Scalds lack the power that Slowbro's have (especially with Calm Mind). It's flaws definitely keep it out of A range imo, but it does have enough advantages to keep in B+

 

[Meru]

Tentacruel seems good at first, as Water/Poison is actually a beautiful typing for UU, covering the three big F's: Fire-, Fairy- and Fighting-types, as well as Water-types. However, it has a poor Defense stat, and while the SpDef stat is nice for taking Scalds, it gets absolutely destroyed by that burn chance. No reliable recovery also really hurts its fall from grace from the Drizzle days, and altogether should be seen probably at B-, as you have to be pretty hard pressed to pick Tentacruel over Mega Blastoise. Toxic Spikes absorption and Rapid Spin in one 'mon does have its place on certain stall teams though, so it's not completely useless. Let this thing drop to RU though... they need it