Gen 6 np: XY Ubers Gengarite Suspect Test - In The Shadows [READ POST #71]

[Fireburn]

I want to quickly dispel some misconceptions regarding this suspect:

1) Banning Gengarite means we're banning a Pokemon - Gengarite isn't a Pokemon. Gengarite is an item. Call it semantics but if anything is getting banned, the thing that actually will be banned will be an item. Thing is, Mega Gengar (and Mega Evolutions in general) are much closer to being set variants than actual standalone Pokemon. They're different from formes that you send out as their own thing (i.e. Deoxys-Attack, Rotom-Heat) since it is impossible to send out Mega Gengar on its own. You always send it out as Gengar, and then you can choose whether or not to actually Mega Evolve (which you may not want to do immediately if you want to get some use out of Levitate) to make use of the item Gengarite (which makes it different than Giratina holding Griseous Orb, for example, since holding it means you're stuck in Origin Forme).

2) Ubers isn't supposed to ban things for being uncompetitive - OHKO Clause, Moody Clause, and Swagger Clause would all like to have a word with you.

3) Overpowered and uncompetitive are the same thing -

Overpowered = Every Pokemon classified as Uber. That's how they ended up in Ubers.

Uncompetitive = Things that break game elements, invalidate important game mechanics, or otherwise detract from skill being the primary method of deciding Pokemon battles

I can go more in depth if needed but these are not necessarily the same thing.

4) I don't think Mega Gengar should be banned but Shadow Tag should be banned - Shadow Tag will only be suspected if Gengarite is banned. If you think Shadow Tag (and really Gengarite by extension) should be banned, opt to ban Gengarite.

5) Ubers is a banlist, not a tier -It's both. Ubers's function as a banlist simply means that "Uber" is what we call things that are too strong for OU. That's it. After that it's a metagame, which has been defined previously by former Ubers Leader bojangles as "the metagame with the least amount of bans." And no, we are not making Ubers usage based. Ever.

I'll make a better post later but I wanted to go ahead and address all these things before we got derailed too far.

 

[Mr.378]

There is a sentiment that I reflect on in my thoughts on this suspect. I feel as if ubers is the tier where bans should not happen in unless they are absolutely needed because of how degenerate the suspect is, especially on individual pokemon such as Mega Gengar. Such a suspect must take control of the game away from the opponent of the player using the suspect. Mega Gengar himself does not necessarily fill that description, nor is not so good that he himself needs a ban in ubers. The turn needed for his mega evolution is the critical factor in this as it makes Mega Gengar possible to play around once. This allows to counter play against Mega Gengar with methods like sending in a pursuit user such as Scizor and trap kill it as well. It may be able to pack moves for those threats. This may be overpowered, and what got it banned in OU, but ubers is a different tier which does not ban on how overpowered a pokemon is. Mega Gengar still allows for the opponent to have some form of control over the gamestate and therefore, should not be banned from ubers.

However this suspect is not just about Mega Gengar, but Shadow Tag itself. This is where the problem is. Shadow Tag, on pokemon such as Gothitelle and Wobbuffet is a degenerate force that must be banned. It allows for no normal way to play around it, other than just completely building your team around not letting them come in, trap your pokemon, and let them either set up, faint your current pokemon, or allow for another pokemon to faint. It is very match up based, more so than any other aspect of competitive battling in this or any other tier. It is because of this it is impossible to counter, impractical to check, and removes skill from the game. As such is why Shadow Tag, and Shadow Tag alone, warrents a ban in the ubers tier.

 

[AM]

Ubers is my 2nd favorite tier and tbh idk, there's a lot of arguments that could also be said about the most broken things in it. Such as E-speed killer. I honestly think it's more deadly than Geomancy Xerneas. Now I can definitely say that M-Gengar doesn't really have any counters in Ubers, but it does have checks. Such as a normal Arceus getting a safe switch in, taking a Focus Blast and then ohkoing with a EQ
252 SpA Mega Gengar Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 274-324 (71.7 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Arceus Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 272-322 (103.8 - 122.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Or even something such as specially defensive Scizor getting a safe switch in, take a hit and SD and then kill it
252 SpA Mega Gengar Hidden Power Fire vs. 12 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Scizor: 232-276 (81.6 - 97.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 244 Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 262-309 (100 - 117.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I'll be perfectly honest though, it really doesn't come down to checks and counters on M-Gengar. Shadow Tag was always the thing that made it shine, was a key factor in its ban from OU, and led us to where we are at now with this suspect test. The checks and counters usually have no relevancy because Gengar is trapping everything else besides those while the teammates will handle the rest. Imo I don't think M-Gengar or Shadow Tag is broken at all. It generally comes down to whether or not you can tolerate the concept of Shadow Tag or just write it off as something that shouldn't be allowed so we can apply some sort of illusion of balance in a game that has plenty of nonsense to contradict that theory.

Basically I'll just finish up this post with some things to think about. Counters and checks are for the most part irrelevant due to M-Gengars ability of Shadow Tag primarily, with a few traits such as Destiny Bond that basically makes the M-Gengar vs check/counter scenario end with both getting Ko'd. In the end the thought process should be more of the impact of Shadow Tag on M-Gengar and if the community decides so, the impact of Shadow Tag if we do get to that point and that discussion.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Overpowered = Every Pokemon classified as Uber. That's how they ended up in Ubers.

5) Ubers is a banlist, not a tier -It's both. Ubers's function as a banlist simply means that "Uber" is what we call things that are too strong for OU. That's it. After that it's a metagame, which has been defined previously by former Ubers Leader bojangles as "the metagame with the least amount of bans." And no, we are not making Ubers usage based. Ever.

I'll make a better post later but I wanted to go ahead and address all these things before we got derailed too far.

Of the 24 pokemon currently in ubers only 4 are there for being overpowered in OU. Everything else is put there before the generation even begins. Im not gonna argue about shadow tag because its obviously broken as hell, what im gonna argue about is what exactly is Ubers trying to achieve at this point. Banning things to make the metagame more competitive, having official tours, a ladder, tier leaders obviously means that Ubers is a tier but at the same time not being usage based and not banning pokemon are characteristics of a banlist. You said yourself that its both but then what is the point of this when the end result is a tier that imposes a self restriction (not banning pokemon) that will ensure its never going to be fully balanced? This brings back the old question of why Ubers simply doesnt become the standard metagame (and therefore a full tier), a question i also made to myself last gen when i played a fuck ton of it and came to enjoy its metagame but wished that we had the power to do everything a proper tier should be able to. Now looking a xy i see that Ubers still strives to balance its metagame but still limited by its banlist roots. Before you ask, yes i DO want shadow tag banned, but i also DONT want Uber to continue being this weird hybrid of banlist/tier which puts me in a tough position as while banning it is obviously the ''correct'' thing to do, it doesnt change the bigger picture.

 

[alexwolf]

Of the 24 pokemon currently in ubers only 4 are there for being overpowered in OU. Everything else is put there before the generation even begins. Im not gonna argue about shadow tag because its obviously broken as hell, what im gonna argue about is what exactly is Ubers trying to achieve at this point. Banning things to make the metagame more competitive, having official tours, a ladder, tier leaders obviously means that Ubers is a tier but at the same time not being usage based and not banning pokemon are characteristics of a banlist. You said yourself that its both but then what is the point of this when the end result is a tier that imposes a self restriction (not banning pokemon) that will ensure its never going to be fully balanced? This brings back the old question of why Ubers simply doesnt become the standard metagame (and therefore a full tier), a question i also made to myself last gen when i played a fuck ton of it and came to enjoy its metagame but wished that we had the power to do everything a proper tier should be able to. Now looking a xy i see that Ubers still strives to balance its metagame but still limited by its banlist roots. Before you ask, yes i DO want shadow tag banned, but i also DONT want Uber to continue being this weird hybrid of banlist/tier which puts me in a tough position as while banning it is obviously the ''correct'' thing to do, it doesnt change the bigger picture.

If Ubers is treated as a normal tier and things get banned, then a new ''Uber'' tier will be created, which will eventually be big enough to not only be a banlist, but also a metagame, and the story repeats. Basically, Ubers need to keep their ''banlist roots'' to continue existing, otherwise the tier / ban-list loses its meaning and purpose.

Sorry if this is off-topic.

 

[Fireburn]

Of the 24 pokemon currently in ubers only 4 are there for being overpowered in OU. Everything else is put there before the generation even begins. Im not gonna argue about shadow tag because its obviously broken as hell, what im gonna argue about is what exactly is Ubers trying to achieve at this point. Banning things to make the metagame more competitive, having official tours, a ladder, tier leaders obviously means that Ubers is a tier but at the same time not being usage based and not banning pokemon are characteristics of a banlist. You said yourself that its both but then what is the point of this when the end result is a tier that imposes a self restriction (not banning pokemon) that will ensure its never going to be fully balanced? This brings back the old question of why Ubers simply doesnt become the standard metagame (and therefore a full tier), a question i also made to myself last gen when i played a fuck ton of it and came to enjoy its metagame but wished that we had the power to do everything a proper tier should be able to. Now looking a xy i see that Ubers still strives to balance its metagame but still limited by its banlist roots. Before you ask, yes i DO want shadow tag banned, but i also DONT want Uber to continue being this weird hybrid of banlist/tier which puts me in a tough position as while banning it is obviously the ''correct'' thing to do, it doesnt change the bigger picture.

I'm not really sure what the point you're trying to make is. There is no need for a paradigm shift in Ubers - the entire suspect test is for the purpose of determining whether or not Gengarite should be banned for uncompetitiveness based on the current paradigm. We're not trying to make an "Ubers" of Ubers, nor will we do so.

And Ubers as it is now has predecent for banning uncompetitive metagame elements: see OHKO, Moody, and Swagger clause. Ubers doesn't care about things that are overpowered or overcentralizing, but we do care if something is uncompetitive to the point of destroying the metagame. That is the question we are asking here: is Gengarite/Shadow Tag uncompetitive to the point where it needs to be banned to preserve competitiveness in the metagame?

EDIT- Alright going to make this clear: we are not changing the paradigm of Ubers. We are simply trying to decide if Gengarite/STAG should be removed within the current paradigm for uncompetitiveness. That is all.

 

[PokèManiac Livio]

You should not play long to realize that Shadow Tag is broken, not uncompetitive, "just" broken; In addition to provide an excellent revengekiller in whatever tier you are playing, it also basically allows you to play with a situation 6 vs 5, almost completely blocking the entry of at least 1 pokemon on the field, not really healthy even for a tier like ubers. Get stuck on a "wrong" move (fight/normal move when you face a gengar is the worst case) or kill an opponent mons with a counter that cant win the 1vs1 against Gengar-M/Gothitelle/Wobbuffet or Chandelure too (in the near future) means a -1, not counting that it can create an optimum matchup by itself against stall teams, considering for example Perish Song+Protect/Taunt Mega Gengar that pull down a lot of wall, special and not, which dont run a move able to hit it hard enough such as Chansey, Restalk Giratina, Restalk Xerneas, Forretress (volt switch set is quite rare in Ubers) and so on.. anyway I personally think that Shadow Tag should not be banned from Uber, tier or banlist that is, since it is not based on luck like previous ban (Moody OHKO Clause and Swagger) and because the player who plays Shadow Tag generally and Mega Gengar in particular still needs good skills to win.

 

[Flamer]

While I'm no Ubers player, I am in total agreeance with this suspect test, however, I feel it it targeting the wrong component. I would rather see Shadow Tag removed in its entirety from competitive Pokemon. Shadow Tag, by its very definition, forces an uncompetitive situation on the opponent and induces a more mindless style of play for the user. Not only that, it's not like it's only broken on M-Gengar, every single mon who is blessed with the ability, no matter how mediocre they were before, has shot up in viability and are a nightmare to deal with, even though they are inferior in almost every other way to their opponents.

Now other than that whole "uncompetitive" deal, Shadow Tag is also broken under the support clause, shown below.

Support CharacteristicA Pokemon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other Pokemon to sweep.

Any user of Shadow Tag, can be tailored to destroy whatever threatens their team (except wobbefett, who's movepool was tailored for Shadow Tag anyway). I know this isn't very in depth but I'm not really a wall'o'text sorta guy.

 

[0okami]

do i think that gengarite/shadowtag should be banned, no however i feel like that if you are going to ban one might as ban both since mega gengar has shadow tag so banning shadow tag makes gengarite useless anyways

 

[Emperor]

If Ubers is treated as a normal tier and things get banned, then a new ''Uber'' tier will be created, which will eventually be big enough to not only be a banlist, but also a metagame, and the story repeats. Basically, Ubers need to keep their ''banlist roots'' to continue existing, otherwise the tier / ban-list loses its meaning and purpose.

Sorry if this is off-topic.

If this were to happen, then yes, there wouldn't be much point to banning anything in the Uber tier.

Having played Ubers for about a month or so, Mega Gengar is good, I'll give it that. It was banned from OU for a reason and I don't really think we need to discuss how good it is. However, I do think that saying that Mega Gengar is "uncompetitive" for the metagame might be a bit hard to define considering that what is competitive and what isn't competitive in Ubers isn't exactly the same. You could argue that many Ubers are uncompetitive due to their insanely huge movepools and stats giving them limitless amounts of set potential. A good example of this is Arceus. Sure, the plate says something but plate information isn't available until switch in so it kinda throws prediction out the window. That, and the number of normal Arceus sets that can be made is kinda staggering.

The point is, we should be considering how we define "Ubers tier banning rules" since it's a very different game.

 

[aim]

Oh you're weak to scizor and wanna give xerneas an easy set up? Let me just slap an hp fire mega gar on the team and ah nice. Oh stall is a problem? No worries mega gengar can trap anything! Oh need an arceus check? Mega gengar? Xerneas check? Mega gengar? Crap i'm weak to mega gengar let me run pursuit mega scizor and hope he doesn't have hp fire...he does!! Yeah Mega Gengar is an overcentralizing pokemon in the ubers meta game. Its ability to essentially trap any pokemon and get rid of it is crazy. Also having to potentially sack the 'counter' because you don't know the set...this suspect was definitely needed.

 

[Progression]

This is my first post, but it's an important one to me. I think that banning any form of pokemon from Ubers is a terrible, terrible idea. This has nothing to do with how "competitive" or "non-competitive" Mega-Gengar is, and as a matter of fact I would like to avoid flaming other users about semantics. This issue has to do entirely with what Ubers IS, which is, in my mind, the sole tier where one can play with EVERY form of EVERY pokemon. I can't use nor will I likely ever be able to use Rayquaza or Groudon, two of my favorite pokemon of all time, in OU or below. I have to rely on the Uber tier to play these pokemon, something I have happily done for years of competitive battling. I know the Uber tier is no longer a banlist, but I'll be darned if it isn't the last place on earth that we can use any and all Pokemon and I want to keep it that way. Banning Gengarite would be the death knell of what many consider to be a unique pokemon in Mega-Gengar, and I don't want to have to think of an Uber tier where a truly "Uber" quality pokemon can't ever be used.

It will be a sad day when competitive battlers can no longer play with a legitimate pokemon on our servers, which is what I am afraid of having happen should this ban go through.


I'm going to attempt to meet the COIL requirements, but since I don't have a lot of time to ladder I will be relying on other users to vote against the ban.

#unlimitedpokemon

 

[Donkey]

gengarite (shadow tag) basically invalidates an entire play-style unless you are ok with running some mediocre techs like pursuit and shed shell. if that wasnt enough gengarite buffs the shit out of xerneas too.

should have been banned a while ago

just my 2 cents

 

[Minority]

I want to quickly dispel some misconceptions regarding this suspect:

1) Banning Gengarite means we're banning a Pokemon

This is not a misconception it is a fact.

Banning Scizorite would be banning an item that creates a set for a Pokemon because Scizor is viable in Ubers without its mega. Same goes for Blaziken and Mewtwo, but not for Gengar. Gengar has two sets and both require Gengarite; the act of taking its only sets is the same as banning the Pokemon because you cannot use them. Every Gengar is intended to be used as Mega and thus the act of banning its mega would effectively ban the Pokemon from play. It's similar to if you banned Speed Boost on Blaziken in gen 5: you are effectively banning every viable set that mon can run and therefore are banning it entirely. If this still isn't clear enough Mega Evolutions have their own unique combination of BST / abilities / typing which makes them essentially a Pokemon, and banning the method to using cede Pokemon is the same as banning the Pokemon because the outcome is the same: you are restricted from using that unique combination.

I'm not necessarily anti-ban, but banning Gengarite is banning a Pokemon and that needs to be recognized.

 

[piuchester]

This is coming from someone who never actively played ubers (like in, someone who got bored of fighting scrubs before hitting 1400 ELO, months before), but here it goes anyway:

I can see from most posts here that Shadow Tag is the "uncompetitive" thing, and that Gothitelle (as odd as it seems) is more broken than Mega Gengar because it can trap on turn 1, rather than losing a turn to mega-evolve.

I'll start asking:
- Why does "everyone" run Mega Gengar, wasting their megaslot, if Gothitelle is a better trapper (you said it, not me)
- What stops a player to KO the Shadow Tag user as soon as it switchs in? 60/80/95 bulk is pathetic for Ubers standards, and it can easily be dealt with the trapped mon unless you played it carelessly (as you know from the start of the game that the opponent has a trapper)
- Back to Gothitelle, how do you expect it to 6-0 a team with 95 base SAtk (which can hurt at +6, true) and 65 base Spe? What stops someone sending a faster, physical mon (or even some priority) to prey on that 70/95 physical bulk? Better yet, what can it switch into to setup freely, outside a few support mons?


And then, another line of questions, because the suspect test is running under Gengarite:
- What is the immediate effect of its ban on the metagame as it is now? How far does it change the effectiveness of mons like GeoXern (and Xerneas as a whole), E-Killer Arceus, CM Fairy Arceus, to list a few.
- What roles can it perform (outside of trapping) and who can replace it?
- What are the would-be Counters (as in, can counter as long as it is able to switch-in, considering STAG) to Mega Gengar? Can they be run without messing too hard with teambuilding?


As a side-note; I didn't had any problem with Mega Gengar, but it doesn't say a thing in lower ELO.


EDIT: Another nitpick while I'm at it: how many movelots does Gengar have? 4, right?
It sure has an expansive movepool, but it can't run Taunt, Destiny Bond, Perish Song, Will-o-Wisp, Shadow Ball, Sludge Bomb, Focus Blast and Hidden Power [Fire] in the same set. You can't seek-and-destroy the whole tier as you claim picking only four of these.

 

[blitzlefan]

To be completely honest here I have been wanting Ubers to become a metagame where completely uncompetitive elements are eliminated - maybe it's just loyalty to the tier, because I really love Ubers - but after the advent of XY I really miss having a metagame that I feel is balanced ("broken checks broken" leading to a stable and enjoyable metagame) and not just a shitfest of broken elements. I think people play Ubers because it used to be the most stable and competitive tier (at least that's what I felt about the BW metagame) that incidentally includes every Pokemon in the game, but with just what I feel are detrimental elements like Gengarite it's just not as enjoyable to me anymore. I suppose it's why I find arguments that boil down to "I want to play with everything or else it's not the Ubers tier" a little disappointing (is that the right word?) Forgive me for being a little off-topic, but I've felt this way for a long time and it's really nice to get this sort of sentiment across.

I'm going to attempt to get back into laddering for the suspect test - which I feel is really monumental in the direction I'd personally really love this tier to take - but I'm a little rusty after school testing and some personal issues popping up here and there.

 

[Sweep]

If any of the above couple of posters become good at this tier, I promise you that you'll look back at your posts and writhe in complete embarrassment.

As for Shadow Tag, the inability to switch takes away one of the key elements of the game and forces unpleasant 50/50's. For example, suppose your check to Life Orb Xerneas is Bronzong and your opponent has a Gothitelle. If you switch to Bronzong and they double to Goth, you are going to be in a world of hurt as your opponent can set up to +6 for free. If you lack a Dark type, you will lose half your team. The alternative is letting Xerneas potentially blow holes into your team. Even if you switch Bronzong into Xerneas and your opponent doesn't double to Goth, there will still be another 50-50 the next turn (that also favors your opponent). Mega Gengar (since only Gengarite is getting suspected right now) is arguably easier to revenge and Pursuit-trap but also removes a far larger pool of threats.

I made a tl;dr on this subject earlier so I won't add anything else, except to say that the ladder's preference for 6 year old hyper offense* may prevent newer players from realizing how good Mega Gengar truly is. Gengar doesn't have a mad match-up vs HO per se, but has a much harder time finding a turn to mega evolve than it will vs. other playstyles & is more likely to get outrun by more than one Pokemon.

*Hack and I are both guilty of this, as playing games that last longer than 5 minutes on the ladder is scientifically proven to increase the chances of getting pancreatic cancer by 40%.

 

[Haunted Diamond]

You know the broken thing about Shadow tag is that you can give a medicore player a good team with goth, and a professional player a balance/stall team. The medicore player will win the good one because of goth making skills irrelevant in ubers.
While gothielle is the severe case of this (setting up to +6 then using trickroom to sweep the rest of your team or simply coming back later to trap something else), Mega gengar can do the same thing to a lesser extent by trapping one key mon with the combination of taunt+Destiny bond.

 

[Sweep]

"Just wondering but why the fuck is Gothitelle with Shadow Tag suddenly a problem when it was almost non-existant in BW Ubers? Anyone care to explain???"

Gothitelle has far more threats it can trap and destroy now, including Bronzong, almost all Defog Arceus, Sylveon, Tank Xerneas, Specially Defensive Palkia (which was non existent in BW2 but was fairly common in SPL 5), and more. None of those threats were around in BW (support Arceus still existed but was less common), making Gothitelle not worth the trouble. Because of Gothitelle's superior bulk and ability to set up to +6, it is also far harder to force out than Gengar once it slowly tortures its trapped victim to death. If you lack a Dark type, you may well lose 2-3 more team members to it.

 

[Krauersaut]

9 hours later, first blood has been achieved!

 

[Haunted Diamond]

Klefki and blobs are two other prominent things it can trap.

 

[Style_Dota]

"Just wondering but why the fuck is Gothitelle with Shadow Tag suddenly a problem when it was almost non-existant in BW Ubers? Anyone care to explain???"

Gothitelle has far more threats it can trap and destroy now, including Bronzong, almost all Defog Arceus, Sylveon, Tank Xerneas, Specially Defensive Palkia (which was non existent in BW2 but was fairly common in SPL 5), and more. None of those threats were around in BW (support Arceus still existed but was less common), making Gothitelle not worth the trouble. Because of Gothitelle's superior bulk and ability to set up to +6, it is also far harder to force out than Gengar once it slowly tortures its trapped victim to death. If you lack a Dark type, you may well lose 2-3 more team members to it.

Just because the metagame has developed things that Gothitelle is able to trap doesn't make it broken.

Anyway, it's very clear that Mega Gengar was the MAIN reason why people wanted to remove Shadow Tag from Ubers. I don't need to reiterate them, because Dice has already stated why Mega Gengar is overpowered. However, at the end of the day, there are two ways that people are going to view this:

Anyone that feels that Ubers is a banlist, to which a metagame is developed around, will most likely not be voting for a Gengarite ban solely based on the integrity of what Ubers is defined as.

However, those that feel that Ubers is a metagame, of which it is deserving of its own rights to remove things in order to have it be as competitive as possible will vote for the ban.

Hi, please don't talk about youtubers and what they may say unless you want to use their relevant points as an argument in this discussion. It's off topic and we really don't care. I'm defacing your post since you already brought the subject up and I don't want other people doing the same. ~MM2

 

[PragaSV]

Here goes,
Gengar normaly is a great pokemon with high SpA and Spe. Then comes gengarite which gives it the Ability Shadow Tag, the real culprit in this test. Mega Evolution maintained its same stat structure, Mega-Gengar is just a faster and stronger gengar. So why is it in Ubers?

Shadow Tag. Switching out is an essential part of the current metagame, the reason U-Turn and Volt Switch is OP. Switching out into a defensive Poke which can take attacks better is neccesary in most matches. Shadow Tag completley shuts down switching. Unless you have Uturn or Volt Switch or you are a ghost, you are stuck in. Mega-Gengar can dent your team, especially if you are running bands, scarfs or specs. But then why are gothitelle and Wobuffet in UU?

Perish Song+Taunt+Destiny Bond. This set is DISGUSTING. The whole purpose of battling is testing your skill. Coming in, taunting and Destiny Bond nearly ALWAYS works. Mega-Gengar can take out one of your pokemon easily, requiring little to no skill at all.

Mega-Gengar is different from other taggers due to its movepool. It can take out the most threating pokemon in the oppenents team, or trap and kill anything weak to its Powerful moves. My opinion is that Mega-Gengar is ONLY broken for its ability, but that one factor is HUGE. Gengarite SHOULD be banned.

 

[Krauersaut]

my little "paragraph" essay on how I feel, check my above post for proof of reqs (in 9 hours!)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Let me tell you - I was dedicated to this suspect test for two reasons. 1) I had a shitton of free time today, with nothing better to spend it on, and 2) I'm extraordinarily FOR banning Gengarite from Ubers. This is for another three reasons entirely -

• A) The massive overcentralization of the meta with little-to-no checks outside of pursuit trappers (which, depending on its moveset, it can get around), resulting in it almost always nabbing a kill or two
• B) The diminishment of Stall as a viable team archetype
• and C) while I'm not particularly fussy about Mega-Gengar in itself, I NEED Shadow Tag out of Ubers.

For Point A, a lot of the counters to that have been the existence of Xerneas. Xerneas is currently the hands-down king of Ubers. A sought-after typing, highest usage stats since its release, and it forces every team to have at least 1 extraordinarily powerful check to it, and depending on its moveset and EV spread, it can potentially get around all of them. Heatran? Focus Blast. Scizor? Defense EVs and HP Fire. Ho-Oh? Stealth Rock and Psyshock OR Kyogre and Thunder. HOWEVER! Xerneas sure as hell isn't getting a ban, because it can only run 4 moves, and as such, that's allowed the meta and its players to adapt to it! Every team will have a way to play around it, because we've adopted the mindset of the being necessary, and that's the key point - it's possible. It has no choice but to reveal its moveset (let's be honest, more often than not, you can tell what moves its running from the first moves it uses other than Geomancy and Moonblast), allowing it to be checked, albeit still being a dominating offensive threat. The difference therein between Xerneas and Gengar is that whilst they both "overcentralize" the meta, Gengar does not have a set check! Gengar can rip a massive hole in a team's core or a check to a potent threat on the Gengar user's team with little to no risk or consequence, as the other player will more often than not find themselves in a sticky situation, especially if not prepared in any way for it. The most common pursuit trappers in the tier, Tyranitar and Scizor, still guarantee at least one death on their team due to Gengar - Tyranitar, assuming prior damage, falls to Focus Blast, and Scizor downright loses to Destiny Bond, whatever way you twist it. Another "check" to Gengar in Aegislash still gets mown over:

252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 194-230 (74 - 87.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Destiny Bond, Xerneas check gone, deer and priority stampede Aegislash-user's team. Specially inclined Aegislash easily tanks Shadow Ball from Gengar and OHKO's back with one of its own, but specially inclined Aegislash is non-existant in Ubers, and anyhow, to designate a sole mon to be able to defeat Mega-Gengar and not achieve anything else defines overcentralization.

Point B) Stall is an archetype I've come to love this generation, and as such, I feel I have a decent understanding of. Now, I'm not saying "ooooh gengar shud b bannd bcuz it beatz mai fav playstyle QQQQQQQQQQ", I feel it essentially dissipates the potential of something that is a relevant part of the metagame! HO is running wild and stir crazy on the ladder and even sometimes in tournament play this gen, and Stall is an extraordinarily good answer to that. Now, let's assume aforementioned HO team has a Gengar on it. This allows Gengar to nullify, dispel, eradicate and otherwise annihilate a member of the Stall team's core, thereby letting one of the HO's team extremely potent threats that would have been otherwise checked by that Mon rip through the team. I believe that the fact that Gengar-Mega exists greatly contributes to the prominence of "shitty, mindless, no-effort-required HO" everywhere, because of its massive, for lack of a better term "overpowered" impact and influence due to the declination of Stall's viability at the hands of Mega-Gengar. (Whew, that was one helluva run-on sentence.)

Think of it this way - I achieved reqs using ONE team. Can you guess what that team was?

Deoxys-Speed, Rayquaza, Yveltal, Xerneas, Magic Coat Ekiller, SD Mega-Scizor (which does a decent job of handling M-Gar, but quite possibly the only thing that does).

My team physicalized "shitty HO", and guess what? I was #1 for almost the entire duration of the time frame I was laddering in, and achieved requirements to vote in 9 hours by facerolling on my keyboard.

Point C) Shadow Tag. In SD Mega-Scizor and Magic Coat EKiller on an overwhelmingly offensive, mindless, shitty HO team, I was able to beat Mega-Gengar with better chances than most. But Shadow Tag in general... the other two (ab)users, Gothitelle and Wobbuffet, can rip shit to bits and pieces and make stall cry even more.

Gothitelle, as mentioned several, SEVERAL times already in this thread, has the potential to come in on either a weaker special attacker or staller, drive them to agonizing tears while stacking Calm Mind to +6, and Trick Room. Without a Dark Type or a shitton of priority, I'm not sure how you'd survive that. Even if it ISN'T a Calm Mind or Trick Room set, it will still be able to eliminate aforementioned mon with ease, performing similarly to Mega-Gengar in that it removes a threat from the opposing team, survives to potentially do it again, and paves the way for its own team to crush the other one.

Wobbuffet has two options - Encore something trying to set up on it and switch out into your own sweeper and say "GG", or come in on a sweeper already set up or scarfer, press either "Mirror Coat" or "Counter", and faceroll. No matter what archetype you are, OH NO IT'S WOBBA! got its set name for a reason.

Well, that's it for me. I'm fucking exhausted now. So uhh, TL;DR - GET THIS OUT OF UBERS NOW.

(Shrang that last bit was just for you bby <3)

 

[Worthlessnoob]

I'm not fully understanding why Gengarite needs to be suspected in Ubers. The early posts in this thread are claiming it's uncompetitive, but they seem to use a definition of uncompetitive that includes more than the one that was used in the the banning of swagger. Swagger was something I could see was clearly uncompetitive because it forced you to "outplay the coinflip" in order to win against teams built around the move.

Uncompetitive = Things that break game elements, invalidate important game mechanics, or otherwise detract from skill being the primary method of deciding Pokemon battles

This is the definition Fireburn posted for "uncompetitive", but is this really a good way to describe it, especially when the tier we are talking about is Ubers? I know that Ubers is treated more like a tier in 6th Gen, but I don't see why we should tier it like OU, UU, etc. when it's also meant as a banlist. You can say as much as you want about how Mega-Gengar is amazing and has no counters and the fact still remains that Ubers has always been centralized.

Mega-Gengar fits under the definition above, but why is that considered uncompetitive now? It does not put more focus on luck, and it forces about as many 50-50s as switching allows. If someone doubles into Gengar and traps you you lose a poke, but it's the same as if someone doubled into Kyogre because both will be essentially guarantee a kill at that point. If you kill your opponents mon and Mega-Gengar comes in and traps you then it's not luck-based because you knew that could happen. Of course, Gengar has higher speed so it can kill faster threats and it also chooses who it wants to kill, but is that the difference that sets the boundary between a ban and no ban?

Mega-Gengar should be banned because it removes the mechanic of switching. I could say Xerneas removes the option of having six worthwhile mons because I'm forced to run some crap like Aegislash. You could also say you can just run some move or poke to soft-check Xerneas. Well then I could tell you to run Shed Shell on all your team members. Then, you could say that removes the aspect of holding items, but I can just say that running a move to check Xerneas is removing my ability to run 24 non-Xerneas-checking moves. This definition of uncompetitive draws no lines.

The real question I'm asking here is why does uncompetitive encompass more than luck and coinflips? The point of this new definition is what I am honestly curious about.

I'm not saying that Ubers can't be treated like a normal tier (because I have no right), or however people want it to be. It's just confusing why we are doing something that goes against the "Spirit of Ubers" which is a centralized tier where you can use all the strong mons that were banned from the lower tiers. Yes, banning Gengarite is banning Mega-Gengar, which is a mon, and I see it as going against the Spirit of Ubers. Are we changing the definition or the point of Ubers now? I'd be fine with that, though I'd want some "No-Restrictions" meta if that were the case.