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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)
- Thread starter alexwolf
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Definitely do support cress to C+
Its typing is really the only thing holding it back from being top tier support impossible to kill type of mon, and it already does the last part pretty well. If aegislash does get banned, bisharp too will be pretty much gone as a result of it, and when that happens hallelujah this baby could easily rise to B-
First off, countering some of the biggest mons stall even has to worry about (lando n mega cham) is pretty darn huge. as far as attacks go, ice beam suffices, so that you will not lose to CM lando. Moonlight, screens, t-wave, toxic, there's a bunch of shit this baby can do for a stall team. Yes, screens on a stall team is a thing and its pretty damn sweet to ease some pressure for the rest of your team. Reflect in particular can be especially helpful in sponging powerful physical hits from mons that attempt to target you on your weak side (I generally like my cress's sp. def) It makes for a pretty respectable answer to thundurus and lati@s (252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cresselia: 165-196 (37.1 - 44.1%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery). Not to mention cress has a pretty respectable base 85 speed, so you can definitely outspeed crap like lando-t or even gliscor if it annoys you enough and just nail em with an ice beam.
Yeah cress is p. underrated, counters key threats (lando n cham) and has a solid support movepool with somewhat reliable healing. C+ if aegi stays and B- if aegi goes imo.
Its typing is really the only thing holding it back from being top tier support impossible to kill type of mon, and it already does the last part pretty well. If aegislash does get banned, bisharp too will be pretty much gone as a result of it, and when that happens hallelujah this baby could easily rise to B-
First off, countering some of the biggest mons stall even has to worry about (lando n mega cham) is pretty darn huge. as far as attacks go, ice beam suffices, so that you will not lose to CM lando. Moonlight, screens, t-wave, toxic, there's a bunch of shit this baby can do for a stall team. Yes, screens on a stall team is a thing and its pretty damn sweet to ease some pressure for the rest of your team. Reflect in particular can be especially helpful in sponging powerful physical hits from mons that attempt to target you on your weak side (I generally like my cress's sp. def) It makes for a pretty respectable answer to thundurus and lati@s (252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cresselia: 165-196 (37.1 - 44.1%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery). Not to mention cress has a pretty respectable base 85 speed, so you can definitely outspeed crap like lando-t or even gliscor if it annoys you enough and just nail em with an ice beam.
Yeah cress is p. underrated, counters key threats (lando n cham) and has a solid support movepool with somewhat reliable healing. C+ if aegi stays and B- if aegi goes imo.
Stepping away from the current discussion, why is Espeon still in C+? That thing is garbage, and should, at the very best, be in C-, if not lower. It may have Magic Bounce and Dual Screens, but it has a huge number of problems. Simply put, there is nothing Espeon is good at. While Dual Screens is cool, Espeon is outclassed at doing this niche role by Azelf and Klefki. Azelf has Taunt and U-turn, while Klefki has Prankster and a far more useful defensive typing (plus T-Wave and Foul Play, mind you). Espeon doesn't even use its ability well. Almost every hazard setter in OU has some way to basically crush Espeon. Tyranitar has Crunch and Pursuit, Heatran doesn't care about Espeon at all, Landorus-T can just U-turn, etc. Basically, since Espeon is so frail and has a horrible defensive typing, everything has some way to hit it really hard. That horrible typing also leaves Espeon vulnerable to a lot of top threats. It's owned by Aegislash, Bisharp, Tyranitar, Scizor, etc. This is worsened by the fact that Espeon can literally do nothing back to these Pokemon. Because Espeon contributes basically nothing to a team and is horribly outclassed, I can't see much of a reason to use it ever, so I think it should at most be C-, D, or even E Rank.
TL;DR: Espeon is trash, move it down to C- or lower.
Sorry if this sounds abrasive, a little tired atm.
TL;DR: Espeon is trash, move it down to C- or lower.
Sorry if this sounds abrasive, a little tired atm.
Espeon is still a good stall breaker since it forces stall to find something that can 2hko instead of being able to use any residual damage, and it also works well against offensive teams with support from baton passers like Smeargle or Scolipede.
Though that's really its only niche left (being able to defog-block its own screens is also a niche, but it's still outclassed by a lot of screeners with Taunt like Azelf or Mew), so it should stay ranked but I wouldn't mind a drop.
Though that's really its only niche left (being able to defog-block its own screens is also a niche, but it's still outclassed by a lot of screeners with Taunt like Azelf or Mew), so it should stay ranked but I wouldn't mind a drop.
Espeon is probably the single best stall breaker their is. A physically bulky set with calm mind, morning sun, stored power and dazzling gleam just destroys stall. The thing can't be phazed or statused and can boost in front of all stall members.
Lando countered by flying types
mawile by fire types
gengar also has trouble with fire types
clefable struggles with venu, heatran, quag, amoongus
vs non stall espeon is complete crap. at best you might get to reflect SR or something, but then you have to to switch right out again. Otherwise I just usually foderize it. Sometimes I do get to fire off a dazzling gleam or something cause it is fast.
Dual screens set is pretty meh
It can still sort of work on baton pass teams.
I say its either c or c+ for its ability to completely beat stall on its own
Espeon is C+, arguably first and foremost, for being a premier BP recipient, and it also gets brownie points for being a decent stall breaker as well. So the ranking is definitely justified, as it can definitely be as threatening or much more than pretty much everything else in the C ranks. As a bonus, Magic Bounce always makes the opponent think twice before setting up hazards or using a status move, no matter which playstyle you're up against, so it's mere presence on your team also creates mind games that can help restrict the way the opponent plays. So yeah, it's fine where it is.
Nominating an increase for Shuckle to B-/B from C+. Shuckle is one of the most reliable hazard user in OU with Sturdy and Mental Herb, guaranteeing at least one type of hazard on turn 1. Unlike several defensive hazard users, Shuckle doesn't become complete set up bait thanks to Encore. Infestation with Encore easily gives free set up to one of your own Pokemon, especially against defensive teams, or against Defoggers. Being a reliable user of Webs, Shuckle makes Diggersby, Gardevoir, Medicham, Charizard-Y, Mega Heracross etc extremely destructive.
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Great Baton Pass recipient? Anything can become a threat by receiving boosts. I'd probably rather use Sigilyph because it's more physically bulky and has more resistances. I'm sure Magic Bounce is cool so you don't get roared or whirlwinded out, but why would you bother dodging phaze moves when you can just kill the opposing mon? Blocking T-wave is cool too, but I'd be more convinced if you can show why the utility of Magic Bounce is that important on such a frail mon.
Magic Bounce is used precisely to stop phazing, as well as Prankter T-Wave. Espeon can also usually get a couple Calm Minds up, after which it can even 2HKO Chansey. If you're up against a team that's using either of these things, you'll want to pass to Espeon.
I would like to propose we move Bisharp down to A. Although it is still an excellent pursuit trapper and can spam knock off like nobodies business, Bisharp has lost a lot of effectiveness due to the Deo Bans. Hazard HO is nowhere near as prevalent as it was and that severely harms bisharps viability (IMO enough to bring a former S rank to A/A-) It still can do what it used to and it is just as good at it as it was before, however his role is simply not as effective as it used to be and its ranking should be adjusted as such.
Bisharp should stay at A+ imo. While it's not as good as it was when Deo-D was still around, it's still the best pursuit-trapper in the tier and can form powerful offensive cores with MegazardY, M-Gardevoir, Keldeo and M-Medicham. It also has access to STAB S-Punches and Knock Offs, which is always nice. The only reason to drop Bish would be an Aegi-Ban, so it should stay where it is for now.
About Espeon, I think it does a huge niche int he OU metagame: Being an absolute nightmare of stall teams.How more stall the team is, better for Espeon.
And has a second niche, rtelated to the first: The presence of Espeon alone cause that the team is not going to use hazards if they are very weak.
Other things (although it doesn't matter to the higher ladder) is that making a mistake with Espeon can be a handicap for your team.
And it's one of the first abilities that can be forgotten. Even though it wasn't Espeon (it was Absol)=, I make a mistake that IIRC cost me a match because I forgot about Magic Bounce.
I think that if Aegislash gets banned, Epseon deserves a C ranking because of that niche. If Aegislash is not banned, I will lowered his ranking to C- or D because Aegislash is a 100% counter of Espeon.
And has a second niche, rtelated to the first: The presence of Espeon alone cause that the team is not going to use hazards if they are very weak.
Other things (although it doesn't matter to the higher ladder) is that making a mistake with Espeon can be a handicap for your team.
And it's one of the first abilities that can be forgotten. Even though it wasn't Espeon (it was Absol)=, I make a mistake that IIRC cost me a match because I forgot about Magic Bounce.
I think that if Aegislash gets banned, Epseon deserves a C ranking because of that niche. If Aegislash is not banned, I will lowered his ranking to C- or D because Aegislash is a 100% counter of Espeon.
I think that it's about time that Mega Tyranitar drops to A. By no means is it a bad pokemon, but it suffers severely from 4MSS and is sort of outclassed by others at most of it's roles. The only niche it really has over normal Tyranitar is the Dragon Dance set, Tyranitar outclasses it at everything else. Tyranitar is a better pursuit trapper due to it's ability to hold a choice band or scarf, Tyranitar is a better sand setter in general because it can utilize a smooth rock, tyranitar is a better special wall because of the assault vest, and finally tyranitar is probably a better stealth rock setter because it doesnt take up a mega slot and it can perform another role at the same time such as a sand setter. Mega Tyranitar's only niche is as a Dragon Dancer however, this set faces competition from both Mega Gyarados and Mega Charizard X, who are arguably better dragon dancer's than Mega Tyranitar. All three are pretty bulky, Mega Tyranitar being the most bulky. However, this bulk is offset by a shitty defensive typing that it weak to common priority and a movepool that lacks reliable recovery. Mega Gyarados has a great defensive typing along with Intimidate and is able to change its typing to get past certain checks and counters. Mega Charizard can afford to invest in bulk unlike the other two and has access to roost along with a decent defensive typing. So as for bulk, imo Mega Tyranitar is worse than the other two due to a shitty defensive typing and no reliable recovery. For offense I also find Mega Tyranitar inferior to the other two. Mega Charizard X has great coverage with it's STABs alone and is the most powerful due to Tough Claws and the high base power of Flare Blitz. Mega Gyarados is only slightly less powerful than Mega Tyranitar due to the latter having to run a jolly nature. Mega Gyarados also has amazing coverage due to mold breaker and an easier time setting up due to its good defensive typing and intimidate. Finally, Mega Tyranitar has a severe case of 4MSS, unlike the other two. It can't run both STABS, ice punch, fire punch, earthquake, and dragon dance at the same time. With that all said, i feel that Mega Tyranitar is still good but too outclassed to be A+ and should therefore go down to A
Mega T-Tar is so bulky that Conkeldurr's Mach Punch, the priority attack that hurts the most, can't OHKO.
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Tyranitar: 216-256 (63.3 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 Earthquake only does like ~54%, but you're meant for late-game anyway. You also resist Talonflame's Brave Bird, which is huge for a set-up sweeper.
Mega T-Tar can also bluff other T-Tar sets easily and find set-up opportunities. Scarf is probably the best bluff to do since you can force out stuff like Mega Pinsir, the Latis, and Gengar and Dragon Dance when you normally shouldn't be able to.
Yeah it's not versatile, but who needs versatility when what you have works?
If you really want a priority attack that hurts:
252 Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Tyranitar: 276-328 (80.9 - 96.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Your real issue from revengers comes mostly from scarfers:
Terrakion: 252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Tyranitar: 544-648 (159.5 - 190%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Diggersby: 252 Atk Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Tyranitar: 270-320 (79.1 - 93.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Ditto: +1 252 Atk Mega Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Tyranitar: 272-322 (79.7 - 94.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Raptor: 252 Atk Staraptor Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Tyranitar: 348-412 (102 - 120.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Tyranitar: 276-328 (80.9 - 96.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Your real issue from revengers comes mostly from scarfers:
Terrakion: 252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Tyranitar: 544-648 (159.5 - 190%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Diggersby: 252 Atk Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Tyranitar: 270-320 (79.1 - 93.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Ditto: +1 252 Atk Mega Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Tyranitar: 272-322 (79.7 - 94.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Raptor: 252 Atk Staraptor Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Tyranitar: 348-412 (102 - 120.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Faults with mega ttar:
Screwed by most fighting types.
Loses to unaware mons
Has to chose between beating steels or grounds
Has some trouble finding set up opportunities.
Relies on stone Miss
Also how are you forcing out Mega Pinsir? EQ and if aegis is banned Closecombat completely destroy you.
Edit: also saw gengar mentioned. TTar has to fear wisp and focus blast from gengar
Screwed by most fighting types.
Loses to unaware mons
Has to chose between beating steels or grounds
Has some trouble finding set up opportunities.
Relies on stone Miss
Also how are you forcing out Mega Pinsir? EQ and if aegis is banned Closecombat completely destroy you.
Edit: also saw gengar mentioned. TTar has to fear wisp and focus blast from gengar
MilkyWay01 I'm honestly kind of sad to see such a flawed argument in dropping Mega Tyranitar. For one, you are saying that it should drop because normal tyranitar has more sets but that is honestly a horrible way to base your argument upon. I am going to drop Mega Gyarados right now because it only has one set. Is that fine with you? No. Also, the word outclassed cannot be used to compare the mega to its base form. Thundurus outclasses Raichu because it can run the same set better. Mega tyranitar and regular tar can't be even compared because they don't do the same dang thing. And the last freakin thing you need to know is that m tyranitar only uses one set showing you have never been to the upper side of the ladder because you said mega tyranitar is a stealth rock setter. In fact, I am 100% sure you have never used the 'mon because you said it was priority weak but the fact that it's only taking 50% from Aqua Jet,... makes it less of an issue. It survives Conkeldurr's Mach Punch to showcase its amazing bulk. Mega tyranitar uses sand stream to ease time setting up on things. Also, comparing Mega tyranitar and mega Charizard X is useless. You complain that 4MSS when Zard wants to run EQ and roost. ZardX also has trouble with Azumarill which is super common and lando-t along with a handful of choice scarf users that are increasing in popularity such as chomp. Also, there is Talonflame which is a huge thorn to it. The next fact is that Mega Charizard X has a harder time setting up. In a metagame, where every team well built has an answer to it, sweeping with it is harder than one thinks. Then stall teams have a great counter in Quagsire. Sure it hard walls tar but that's not the point. ZardX and tar need different things removed to sweep as well. Sand Stream from Tar provides a way to use Excadrill RK doom devil which is why people use it as well. Overall, mega tyranitar is an excellent sweeper and has hella more coverage than ZardX than megados idk what you are talking about. Sorry if I'm coming a little harsh but most of your points should not conclude the demotion of megatar.
In addition, I am preparing myself for a pile of "hell no's" after nominating this, and I have been keeping this to myself because I was too pussy to suggest this, but seriously, Magnezone can move up to B-. This thing has been kept a secret for along time until it was found to be a perfect partner to Choice Scarf Garchomp and Mega Pinsir. Mega Pinsir needs Skarmory, Rotom-W (and Raikou / MTric which Chomp deals with), and Thundurus-I removed to sweep successfully. Magnezone is the bane to the things on this list. Magnezone can easily switch (especially on fairy types) and get the garunteed kill on Skarmory and switch on most variants of Thundurus and force out / kill. If it does switch, Volt Switch gains momentum and if it's a predicted switch off to a bulky ground like Hippo or a Foes Chomp, Flash Cannon them away. Switch and repeat. Mega Pinsir pretty much goes down town from there. If Rotom-W is there, Magnezone usually does enough damage for +2 Return to finish it off. Garchomp can run many sets but Scarf and SD SR Sash are the best ones. With Skarmory, Mega Scizor, and Ferrothorn removed, garchomp is free to sweep successfully with mega pinsir being able to clear up the mess / vice versa. Sure, the core has to deal with Gliscor and lando-t but we have team members for that. The core can even be paired with mega Pinsir's friend Talonflame to make a powerful duo. Overall, Magnezone pairs excellently with 2 of the PKMN in A+ making it worthy of the same defining niche that staraptor has paired with Talonflame making there roles as excellent supporters not that different from each other. It can bump to B-.
That is all.
In addition, I am preparing myself for a pile of "hell no's" after nominating this, and I have been keeping this to myself because I was too pussy to suggest this, but seriously, Magnezone can move up to B-. This thing has been kept a secret for along time until it was found to be a perfect partner to Choice Scarf Garchomp and Mega Pinsir. Mega Pinsir needs Skarmory, Rotom-W (and Raikou / MTric which Chomp deals with), and Thundurus-I removed to sweep successfully. Magnezone is the bane to the things on this list. Magnezone can easily switch (especially on fairy types) and get the garunteed kill on Skarmory and switch on most variants of Thundurus and force out / kill. If it does switch, Volt Switch gains momentum and if it's a predicted switch off to a bulky ground like Hippo or a Foes Chomp, Flash Cannon them away. Switch and repeat. Mega Pinsir pretty much goes down town from there. If Rotom-W is there, Magnezone usually does enough damage for +2 Return to finish it off. Garchomp can run many sets but Scarf and SD SR Sash are the best ones. With Skarmory, Mega Scizor, and Ferrothorn removed, garchomp is free to sweep successfully with mega pinsir being able to clear up the mess / vice versa. Sure, the core has to deal with Gliscor and lando-t but we have team members for that. The core can even be paired with mega Pinsir's friend Talonflame to make a powerful duo. Overall, Magnezone pairs excellently with 2 of the PKMN in A+ making it worthy of the same defining niche that staraptor has paired with Talonflame making there roles as excellent supporters not that different from each other. It can bump to B-.
That is all.
What I meant is that you bluff ScarfTar and trick them into switching out.
You're forgetting everything else that Quagsire checks.
Jacks0n
formerly grassycow
Ye i know but a physical wall can check all the same things, the reason there was so much hype about quag was that it was the 'perfect check' to zard x.
Most physical walls don't have Unaware though.
Jacks0n
formerly grassycow
I know that, and its niche is good, but not comparable to something like mew.
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