Metagame Misdreavus = dead, Fletchling = alive

[Aerow]

Is Fletchling making Little Cup not fun?

In my opinion, yes, it is making LC not fun. It basically forces you to run one or two checks on a team, or else you'll get swept. A team that is weak to Fletchling will most likely lose 80% of games that it plays. In matches where Fletchling is present, matches basically revolve around sweeping or getting swept with Fletchling. If a Fletchling check is removed, that basically signals the end of the game, as Fletchling has an insanely easy time sweeping once a check is removed. Additionally, Fletchling holds a lot of Pokemon back, such as most Grass types. For these reasons, I think that Fletchling is making LC not fun.

I don't see why the need of running one or two checks for Fletchling makes LC not fun. First of all, it's not like Archen, Tirtouga, and Chinchou (and of course a bunch more like Artemisa mentioned) only can stop Fletchling, they can do much more for the team than that. Since there is so many checks for Fletchling, there is a check that works well for all playstyles, and having a check on your team is part of teambuilding and competitive Pokemon. All win conditions needs a check. It's not like Omanyte is broken because you need atleast two checks to it on your team. And I don't feel Fletchling holds Grass-types that hard back, just look at Foongus, a Pokemon that is still a pain to deal with.

 

[Corporal Levi]

I'm not going to deny that Fletchling has a lot of weaknesses. I'm not going to deny that there are ways to get around Fletchling. Does Fletchling have only one thing that really makes people consider it to be ban worthy? But, you don't seem to understand that the point behind Fletchling is that this feature is absurdly amazing. Priority has a major role in pokemon because of the near guarantee of bypassing an important stat in Pokemon.

Do note that those playstyles became popular just because it was Damn near impossible for Fletch to check. When you've got numerous top players talking about how you can't have too many checks to Fletch, how well supported Fletch teams will still easily break through. You certainly can't say that's wrong, because Fletchling has the tendency to 2HKO nearly anything that doesn't resist Flying. Most people only carry one Misdreavus check, which goes to show that raw strength isn't really everything to ban something for.

Priority is indeed phenomenal, especially when it's as powerful as Fletchling's; however, it doesn't instantly crush everything in its path, and there are certainly methods to deal with it, which is where Fletchling's enormous downfalls come into play.
Playstles other than Fletchling offense became popular because they're good. Stall in general is good. If Fletchling left, stall would still be good.
Of course you can't have too many checks to a win condition. Win conditions are designed to sweep, and the better prepared you are to stop such a sweep, the more successful you are.
Part of the reason why this isn't said of Zigzagoon or Omanyte is because Fletchling checks are just so much easier to fit on a team. It's a lot easier to stomach a +2 Acrobatics from base 50 Attack than a repeatedly usable Surf, Ice Beam or Earth Power from a +2 90 Special Attack, so a greater range of Pokemon can be fit onto a team as a Fletchling check.
The reason why teams try to run with one Misdreavus check is that there are a lot more Fletchling checks than Misdreavus checks, so it's a lot harder to actually fit a Misdreavus check in.
If we exclude walls, I can't say it's wrong that not much that doesn't resist flying is able to avoid the 2HKO, but what I can say is that there are still a huge number of viable Flying resists available.

Not if its being used as a revenge killer who can literally stop almost every single sweeper in the tier.
Like what you said about the Shucke-offense being "too good not to run." Fletchling gives the player a fail-safe against almost every type of offensive sweeper bar Rock/Water Shell Smashers. Its like Sash Abra only without the threat of it being revenged killed as well. Where as Sashbra only works once, Fletchling remains the best revenge killer throughout the game because it will generally always go first.

This isn't really true.
196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 36 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Scraggy: 18-24 (81.8 - 109%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(18, 18, 18, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 24)
196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. +1 0 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Timburr: 14-18 (58.3 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 18)
+6 196+ Atk Zigzagoon Extreme Speed vs. 156 HP / 92 Def Fletchling: 36-43 (156.5 - 186.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
There are a LOT of set-up sweepers that Fletchling is unable to revenge-kill that aren't resistant to Flying; it needs support to even revenge-kill.
Sashbra only works once, but it can actually deal with the aforementioned Pokemon to an extent.
Maybe Fletchling is still the best revenge-killer, but it's certainly not too much for the metagame to handle.

• Sun Teams
• Torchic Pass (Baton Pass in general)
• Fighting Offensive
• Scarfed Pokemon
• Speed Boost
• Destiny Bond reliant Pokemon

All team/pokemon archetypes that are deathly afraid of Fletchling. Why would you want to give up the ability to check all these types of pokemon by not running Fletchling?

There's really nothing stopping the users of these teams or Pokemon from just running one of the numerous viable Fletchling checks available.
In addition, there's also how most of these have many shortcomings that extend far beyond Fletchling's existence; I don't think it's necessary to list all of them.

Moreover, some people are saying Fletchling can simply wear down its checks, but this isn't actually the case because between its frailty and weakness to Stealth Rock, it will often get worn down faster than its checks. Use Archen as an example. Archen can force Fletchling out, Fletchling can't force Archen out. After being forced out 3 times, Fletchling's health will be at around 25%, while Archen can use Roost against Fletchling, whereas due to Fletchling's low bulk, it will rarely find a opportunity to recover itself with Roost. The same goes for Chinchou, who can also force Fletchling out, while regaining health with Rest + Sleep Talk. Chinchou can also easily predict a incoming Diglett switch-in and use Scald. If the offensive pressure is high enough, Fletchling will not have time to use Roost, therefore having to deal with only be able to survive a few more switch-ins. As long as you have Stealth Rock on the opponent's field, you can easily wear Fletchling down, and deal with Fletchling + Diglett.

I'm going to go back to this post again because it's really good.
There are arguments that Cranidos isn't good enough because it can only switch in once, but all these Pokemon that can only check Fletchling once are actually often enough, because Fletchling's weakness to Stealth Rock and low defenses makes it difficult to even come in. From my own experience, if you can just hit Fletchling once with something random and then check it once, it will often be unable to switch in afterwards without Defog or Rapid Spin support, which carry their own detriments, namely a loss of momentum, and, in the case of the former, getting rid of favourable hazards for the Fletchling user and preventing Fletchling from getting key KOs.

 

[skies]

Neither of them can 6-0 thats for sure and spamming Acrobatics isn't the best idea if you are running U-turn, lol, you should U-turn when the opponent is actually switching, spamming Acrobatics is not the way to victory. The thing is, Misdreavus can and will bypass its counters if she wants to, while Fletchling can bypass some of its counters at a very high cost. The very few aggurment is quite bad knowing as how many Pokemon are viable in LC, but there are some mons that aren't counters and can deal with Fletch such as: Pawniard, Porygon (the wall version does counter with Ice Beam), Dweeble, Ponyta, Spritzee (moonblast is a 2HKO), Vullaby, Hippopotas, Munchlax, Onix (can potentially be a counter), Slowpoke, Elekid, Koffing, Whynaut. All of these can live an Acrobatics and potentially wall or KO Fletchling.

I'd just to like to weigh in here and support this statement. Saying Mossreavus is less of a wi condition than Fletchling is just not right in my eyes. Fletchling is more spam able, I'll give you that. But it isn't mindless, is spamming Acrobatics then it will get into a check. U-turn playing is a bit more strategic and this should be noted. Also, id like to say that the statement that Misdreavus can, and will, get through it's counters, is extremely true and it's one of the best summaries of Misdreavus, all in one brief sentence.

 

[tcr]

For the record, please don't just post your thoughts and stop--it would be most beneficial to respond to other people's arguments. Not only does that make this an effective discussion, but it makes you that much of a better candidate for a council position.

As for me, I am not going to say anything about Misdreavus, but in regards to Fletchling: am I the only one that has had games where it is just completely useless? I am not trying to sway opinion in either direction, but I wanted to bring that up. I have had games where Fletchling just is 100% shut down because of my opponent's Archen, and I have had games where the combination of Chinchou and Pawniard made things impossible for it as well. I have never used Fletchling + Diglett in tandem, but there are still Pokemon that Diglett cannot trap that really hurt Fletchling (Archen, Tirtouga, Pawniard with rocks breaking Diglett's sash, Slowpoke). Like, I've seen some crazy Fletchling sweeps but that is primarily from teams that were just super underprepared for it. I don't feel comfortable with saying it can sweep through teams when there are so many checks for it, and when it requires entire teams of support (such as Zigzagoon) to be crazy effective.

What do you think? Do you guys think the number of checks it has along with the ease in including its checks in teambuilding make up for how strong its priority moves are and how powerful of a revenge killer it is? I know that's basically what the discussion has been, but I wanted to contribute slightly as well.

Good work guys, keep it up!

The problem I have noticed Blara is that Fletchling turns the metagame into one where the first to make a mistake loses. There's zero recovery, so if you happen to switch your Fletchling check into Acrobatics too many times, you lose. This is mostly noticeable late game, where you just slightly weaken the opponent's team, maybe spread one or two Knock Offs around, and they literally cannot do anything to stop you. This is true for most Pokemon, however usually you can do something about it. If you switch Mienfoo into Scraggy one too many times, you lose Mienfoo, however you should still have at least 3 other members to take on Scraggy, just by nature. Fletchling ONLY HAS those dedicated counters that Fatty listed, and most of them either have poor synergy together (i.e. tirtouga / chinchou) or are just plain too niche to use (Ferroseed, Amaura, Frillish). This DOES limit teambuilding, as you cannot just slap two random checks to Fletchling on team and call it a day, as quite often they are just simply beaten one Pokemon. Thus, this need for synergy has resulted in overtly common teams using the same 6 pokemon over and over.

 

[Caledrith]

TCR and I have actually already discussed this, but Little Cup really has turned into a "Make one mistake and lose" metagame. Because of the nature of powerful, decently fast priority, if you mispredict a Missy set or what Fletchling is going to do, its very, very hard to come back because of how well both of them are able to get around their checks. Personally, I only carry Chinchou, and that in combination with Fletchling is enough for ME to handle Fletchling in my opinion. Misdreavus is a matter of "how long before I fuck up with my Scarfpawn. I just really dislike how hard it is to come back from a losing position in comparison to OU/Ubers, and I feel Fletchling and Misdreavus are the main causes of this problem. And TCR just admitted Amaura is niche... Just thought I'd throw that out there.

 

[Rowan]

don't have time to write loads - also people need to learn that writing essays =/= good post, small posts with relevant info are much nicer to read (for me anyway)

anyway, i think missy is broken, if i have time another time i'll write about it but most other pro-ban posts cover my views. i'll talk about it on irc/ps with anyone if they like though

Fletchling, i'm on the fence about. this is the way i feel right now - when i teambuild, i like to prepare for fletchling. so i can add a chinchou or a magnemite or an aron or a shieldon or an amaura or a tirtouga or kabuto or archen etc... basically there's so many options to deal with fletchling
However, then diglett comes into the equation. so 99% of fletchling counters are out of the picture because dig deals with them. now I have to use Archen, evio Tirt or lolbronzor. i just find this wayyy too restrictive when it comes to teambuilding, that i have to run mons to deal with fletchdig. that's how i feel but now i am sort of convincing myself to ban diglett and not fletch...

someone convince me either way please

 

[Slashari]

don't have time to write loads - also people need to learn that writing essays =/= good post, small posts with relevant info are much nicer to read (for me anyway)

anyway, i think missy is broken, if i have time another time i'll write about it but most other pro-ban posts cover my views. i'll talk about it on irc/ps with anyone if they like though

Fletchling, i'm on the fence about. this is the way i feel right now - when i teambuild, i like to prepare for fletchling. so i can add a chinchou or a magnemite or an aron or a shieldon or an amaura or a tirtouga or kabuto or archen etc... basically there's so many options to deal with fletchling
However, then diglett comes into the equation. so 99% of fletchling counters are out of the picture because dig deals with them. now I have to use Archen, evio Tirt or lolbronzor. i just find this wayyy too restrictive when it comes to teambuilding, that i have to run mons to deal with fletchdig. that's how i feel but now i am sort of convincing myself to ban diglett and not fletch...

someone convince me either way please

Well, without sash, Diglett becomes a lot less useful, meaning hazards help mitigate the threat it poses. Yes, Diglett is very effective at trapping and getting things like Chinchou and Magnemite out of the way, but if sash is broken, the number of things that beat it increases a lot. Stuff like Pawniard and Scarf Mag/Chou can win one on one if sash is not a factor. Diglett is also pretty weak (offensively and defensively) and can only really serve as a one-time use. Fletchling + Diglett is obviously a strong core, but I think it can be played around using things like hazards, etc. I do agree that the addition of Diglett somewhat restricts teambuilding more-so than Fletchling by itself.

 

[greengrappler]

Cranidos is prone to being worn down, but the point was that it's a check and immediately threatens the opposing team far more than Fletchling does. Secondly, just because Tyrunt checks similar things, doesn't mean it's outclassed and there's no reason to use it. It fulfills a different niche and can find it's spot on teams and honestly just looking at the analysis would tell you why you might use it over Tirtouga or Archen. That's basically the only "redundant" check in the post, as the others are fairly common and fulfill unique niches.



First of all Fletchling isn't "utterly destroying" thing that don't resist it. It often fails to 2HKO many common pokemon in the tier. Fletchling also doesn't have a fast u-turn as the most common set is only 12 speed and sets with more speed have their own problems that will typically outweigh the benefits.

There are so many common pokemon in the tier that are able to be successful regardless of Fletchling's presence and being weak to Acrobatics; Timburr, Mienfoo, Cottonee, Foongus, etc. Doduo also fulfills a different niche than Fletchling and I don't feel a ban on Fletchling would even make it more common.


This suspect is for whether or not to ban Fletchling and Misdreavus. Only banning Gale Wings isn't an option.

ops, didn't notice it was that slow, I figured it was faster. Anyways, barely 2-hit-KOing stuff means it hits them on the switch, and then again as they KO you, leaving them low on health. I forgot to add that it cleans up WAY too easily against weakened teams.

196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Timburr: 18-24 (75 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
Yeh, Timburr is going to have no problem switching into Fletch.

By Doduo would get more usage, I mean that it would get used more as a flying type for teams as Fletch is obviously better as of now.

I was just expressing my thoughts, I'll remove the verdict section if gets you this riled up.

EDIT: Man, I hate this reply system.

 

[fatty]

in regards to my previous post about all the "checks" fletchling has, i have hence been convinced that fletch is not broken. so much so, in fact, that I decided to apply the same strategy to the other suspect, misdreavus, which it seems that even fletch supporters deem it broken. What I found was crazy.... It has even more checks / counters! Lets take a look...

we got fletchling, stunky, spd timburr, spd mienfoo, lickitung, porygon, shadow ball munchlax, pawniard, houndour, aipom, knock off tentacool, vullaby, chespin, carvanha, houndour, and hell, pretty much every knock offer or scarfer!!! Fletch can't say that!!

So, misdreavus can't be broken, right ?? Or am I missing something.

Yes, this I sarcasm, but there really is no difference lol so if youre gonna use that argumet for fletch, use it for missy. My point is that at some point you're going to have to enough is enough and realize when your chosen check is going to make u lose more than you gain

 

[Diana]

in regards to my previous post about all the "checks" fletchling has, i have hence been convinced that fletch is not broken. so much so, in fact, that I decided to apply the same strategy to the other suspect, misdreavus, which it seems that even fletch supporters deem it broken. What I found was crazy.... It has even more checks / counters! Lets take a look...

we got fletchling, stunky, spd timburr, spd mienfoo, lickitung, porygon, shadow ball munchlax, pawniard, houndour, aipom, knock off tentacool, vullaby, chespin, carvanha, houndour, and hell, pretty much every knock offer or scarfer!!! Fletch can't say that!!

So, misdreavus can't be broken, right ?? Or am I missing something.

Yes, this I sarcasm, but there really is no difference lol so if youre gonna use that argumet for fletch, use it for missy. My point is that at some point you're going to have to enough is enough and realize when your chosen check is going to make u lose more than you gain

That whole list bar Shadow Ball Munchlax and Guts Timburr really doesn't like taking Will-O-Wisp or Hidden Power Fighting, two moves that are both extremely common and useful on Misdreavus. Fletchling needs serious help or really risky coverage moves to handle a lot of what checks it. There's the difference.

I mean I'm not as against Misdreavus as some, I'm on the fence about it, but can people stop being so rude to people who disagree on a suspect? We're supposed to be having a discussion which is awfully hard with people sniping at each other all the time.

 

[mad0ka]

That whole list bar Shadow Ball Munchlax and Guts Timburr really doesn't like taking Will-O-Wisp or Hidden Power Fighting, two moves that are both extremely common and useful on Misdreavus. Fletchling needs serious help or really risky coverage moves to handle a lot of what checks it. There's the difference.

That's why they're checks. They won't necessarily be switching into HP fighting or will-o-wisp. And how exactly is Fletchling's coverage "risky"? I have literally never understood this arguement. Missy's HP Fighting for coverage is pretty risky. Predict a switch and hit it hard or be punished. That's the same for Fletchling's coverage.

 

[Artemisa]

Ok lol, if you are planning to run mixed Fletchling you should give 40 spa evs and a neutral nature. Calc again its a 2HKO.

40 SpA Fletchling Hidden Power Grass vs. 156 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Solid Rock Tirtouga: 9-12 (39.1 - 52.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
(9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 12)

??

 

[chimp]

This isn't really true.
196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 36 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Scraggy: 18-24 (81.8 - 109%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(18, 18, 18, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 24)
196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. +1 0 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Timburr: 14-18 (58.3 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 18)
+6 196+ Atk Zigzagoon Extreme Speed vs. 156 HP / 92 Def Fletchling: 36-43 (156.5 - 186.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
There are a LOT of set-up sweepers that Fletchling is unable to revenge-kill that aren't resistant to Flying; it needs support to even revenge-kill.
Sashbra only works once, but it can actually deal with the aforementioned Pokemon to an extent.
Maybe Fletchling is still the best revenge-killer, but it's certainly not too much for the metagame to handle.

I don't mean to say your argument is invalid but seems like its more theorymoning than anything. I mean, Scraggy basically needs to be at 100% to avoid that KO chance. Even with Drain Punch that is hard to accomplish. I'll give you Timburr and I never made any mention of Zigzagoon. "a LOT of set-up sweepers" is a hard stretch to believe when you only named three. Abra can be as good a revenge killer as Fletch, but the latter can work against far more pokemon, has relatively more switch in chances, and priority.
I DO think its too much for the metagame to handle, too an extent. Like TCR and Caledrith said, atleast pokemon like Scraggy, Mienfoo, even Misdreavus can be handled by other pokemon who are not dedicated to doing so. Fletchling, however, almost needs dedicated checks. Lets consider that most Fletchling checks are rock/steel types... naturally slow by nature. Not everyone wants one on their team. Not every team can afford to pack a Chinchou or Mangemite, since they just mess with the team's archetype.

Neither of them can 6-0 thats for sure and spamming Acrobatics isn't the best idea if you are running U-turn, lol, you should U-turn when the opponent is actually switching, spamming Acrobatics is not the way to victory. The thing is, Misdreavus can and will bypass its counters if she wants to, while Fletchling can bypass some of its counters at a very high cost. The very few aggurment is quite bad knowing as how many Pokemon are viable in LC, but there are some mons that aren't counters and can deal with Fletch such as: Pawniard, Porygon (the wall version does counter with Ice Beam), Dweeble, Ponyta, Spritzee (moonblast is a 2HKO), Vullaby, Hippopotas, Munchlax, Onix (can potentially be a counter), Slowpoke, Elekid, Koffing, Whynaut. All of these can live an Acrobatics and potentially wall or KO Fletchling.

lol no one said anything about 6-0ing. Not even Gligar or Tangela could do that.
I never really meant that Fletchling could spam Acrobatics to "automatically win." But spamming a Priority Acrobatics is much easier than spamming Missy's Shadow Ball, where you have to watch out for Sucker Punchers, Scarf users, etc etc. Meanwhile Fletch will always go fast, so the difference is definitely there. If anything, U-turn makes it even more of a "win button" since having the momentum is a pretty big advantage especially in such a HO environment as LC.

That whole list bar Shadow Ball Munchlax and Guts Timburr really doesn't like taking Will-O-Wisp or Hidden Power Fighting, two moves that are both extremely common and useful on Misdreavus. Fletchling needs serious help or really risky coverage moves to handle a lot of what checks it. There's the difference.

I mean I'm not as against Misdreavus as some, I'm on the fence about it, but can people stop being so rude to people who disagree on a suspect? We're supposed to be having a discussion which is awfully hard with people sniping at each other all the time.

Some of the Pokemon he mentioned are just checks. Like Houndour can pursuit or Sucker Punch before Missy can really do anything. Carvanha can just protect a bunch. EDIT: lol queenlucy beat me to it.

Also, I hope I'm not being rude or anything. I'm sorry if anyone feels offended by any of my posts.

 

[mad0ka]

40 SpA Fletchling Hidden Power Grass vs. 156 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Solid Rock Tirtouga: 9-12 (39.1 - 52.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
(9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 12)

??

What Max probably meant was that with 40 spatk EVs and a neutral nature, Tirtouga can only switch in once. Because if it switches in again, a combo of acrobatics and hidden power grass will KO it after sr.

 

[Diana]

That's why they're checks. They won't necessarily be switching into HP fighting or will-o-wisp. And how exactly is Fletchling's coverage "risky"? I have literally never understood this arguement. Missy's HP Fighting for coverage is pretty risky. Predict a switch and hit it hard or be punished. That's the same for Fletchling's coverage.

Forgoing U-turn for momentum or Roost for healing on a SR-weak Pokemon is a large cost for its coverage, while all of those coverage options hit just a couple of things (Overheat, Steel Wing, Hidden Power Grass) or don't have good synergy with Acrobatics (Natural Gift). HP Fighting hits Houndour, Pawniard, Carvanha, and Aipom, on the switch, and many of the checks mentioned about Misdreavus are also physically-based and so they don't like being burned. Porygon doesn't like a boosted HP Fighting either. Fletchling's coverage would look so much better to me if it didn't rely so much on Acrobatics but I haven't liked Natural Gift much when I tried it... Basically, Fletchling is much less likely to have said important coverage move than Misdreavus is which puts it in a different category imo.

Also, blizzardy , you're fine, you're not one of the ones I meant. I've just seen a few people sniping at each other instead of really discussing and got tired of it.

Edit: Forgot to mention that something like NP Missy typically has two extra moveslots to do what it needs while Fletch really only has one, that's a bit of a difference as well.

 

[trash]

[08:59] Washibon: If you had a choice to read either a poem or a paragraph which would you one choose?
[09:14] +macle: poem

the great macle has chosen

Misdreavus
​

Hide

May it be banned; Missy.
Insane with it's stats it ain't no sissy.
Please help stop and eliminate this dreadful ghoul,
Don't be a fool,
And don't forget about it's amazing movepool.
She makes it chess, where you need a pawn.
This meta needs a new dawn,
With the ghost queen gone
We need to push this ghost into the distance.
Let's push Missy out of existence.

​

tl;dr Ban Missy

Shout out to gangsterish & Dhaora for helping me​

 

[Artemisa]

What Max probably meant was that with 40 spatk EVs and a neutral nature, Tirtouga can only switch in once. Because if it switches in again, a combo of acrobatics and hidden power grass will KO it after sr.

See you can't do that.

You can't assuming you even hit Tirtouga on the switch w/ HP Grass, for all you know it could Acrobatics then HP Grass and get ko'd by Tirtouga. The game doesn't play in favor of Fletch. People keep on mentioning SR, lets talk about when it's on Fletchling's side of the field. It risk being 1hko by most moves if it's at 100%. In-battle it isn't always going to be at 100% hp, you my take residual damage or damage switch in damage etc etc, it lacks eviolite so it isn't going to be roost stalling. Also considering this scenario: SD on something that you force out, if you don't "force" the mon out you will get status'd or risk being KO'd. Fletchling risk being ko'd most of the time when it sets up due to it's lack of eviolite.

The difference between the flexibility of Fletch and Misdreavus is that all Missy needs is Shadow Ball and it can abuse BJ / Eviolite / LO, while Fletchling needs Acrobatics + SD + U-turn to be successful and most of the time "(no item)".

 

[The Avalanches]

Packing Fletchling checks isn't exactly the burden some people are making it out to be. While some certainly don't belong on a team, it's difficult to make a team that Archen, Tirtouga, Chinchou or Magnemite won't benefit in some way. They all have dedicated roles and their job of handling the bird (not a euphemism) is incidental. You have to pack a counter for Fletchling, but then again, you have to be prepared for all relevant threats in this metagame. Fletchling can get around some of its counters by running special coverage, but I've seen that anything but Overheat is probably a waste of a moveslot, and most Pokemon can surprise their would-be counters with the right coverage.

 

[mad0ka]

Forgoing U-turn for momentum or Roost for healing on a SR-weak Pokemon is a large cost for its coverage, while all of those coverage options hit just a couple of things (Overheat, Steel Wing, Hidden Power Grass) or don't have good synergy with Acrobatics (Natural Gift). HP Fighting hits Houndour, Pawniard, Carvanha, and Aipom, on the switch, and many of the checks mentioned about Misdreavus are also physically-based and so they don't like being burned. Porygon doesn't like a boosted HP Fighting either. Fletchling's coverage would look so much better to me if it didn't rely so much on Acrobatics but I haven't liked Natural Gift much when I tried it...

Also, blizzardy , you're fine, you're not one of the ones I meant. I've just seen a few people sniping at each other instead of really discussing and got tired of it.

Edit: Forgot to mention that something like NP Missy typically has two extra moveslots to do what it needs while Fletch really only has one, that's a bit of a difference as well.

Easy. Just forgo roost and have better rapid spin/defog support. Losing roost is a non-problem for Fletchling basically. And your argument about Missy transfers over to Fletchling as well. Fletchling has the same relevant amount of checks as Missy, and they're both able to hit their checks with appropriate coverage. I don't even understand what your point is.

See you can't do that.

You can't assuming you even hit Tirtouga on the switch w/ HP Grass, for all you know it could Acrobatics then HP Grass and get ko'd by Tirtouga. The game doesn't play in favor of Fletch. People keep on mentioning SR, lets talk about when it's on Fletchling's side of the field. It risk being 1hko by most moves if it's at 100%. In-battle it isn't always going to be at 100% hp, you my take residual damage or damage switch in damage etc etc, it lacks eviolite so it isn't going to be roost stalling. Also considering this scenario: SD on something that you force out, if you don't "force" the mon out you will get status'd or risk being KO'd. Fletchling risk being ko'd most of the time when it sets up due to it's lack of eviolite.

The difference between the flexibility of Fletch and Misdreavus is that all Missy needs is Shadow Ball and it can abuse BJ / Eviolite / LO, while Fletchling needs Acrobatics + SD + U-turn to be successful and most of the time "(no item)".

Um. What are you even saying? All you have to do is hit Tirtouga on the switch once out of two possible times it switches in and BAM. Gone. RIP Tirtouga. You obviously u-turn out the first time after hitting it since you're faster. And why are you able to make that argument of "not being able to be at 100% health" if realistically stuff like Foongus/Timburr/Scraggy/Mienfoo aren't going to be at full health either. Also, as for your last point, sure, Fletch needs that set. Pawniard needs Knock Off/Iron Head/Brick break (90% of the time), but does that make him any worse? No. It just means that it has a specific set that it abuses amazingly. Same for Fletch.

 

[Max Carvalho]

40 SpA Fletchling Hidden Power Grass vs. 156 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Solid Rock Tirtouga: 9-12 (39.1 - 52.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
(9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 12)

??

My bad I calced without positive nature, sorry :/ EDIT: Just to make it clear tho, Fletchling will 2HKO after Stealth Rock.

 

[Artemisa]

Um. What are you even saying? All you have to do is hit Tirtouga on the switch once out of two possible times it switches in and BAM. Gone. RIP Tirtouga. You obviously u-turn out the first time after hitting it since you're faster. And why are you able to make that argument of "not being able to be at 100% health" if realistically stuff like Foongus/Timburr/Scraggy/Mienfoo aren't going to be at full health either. Also, as for your last point, sure, Fletch needs that set. Pawniard needs Knock Off/Iron Head/Brick break (90% of the time), but does that make him any worse? No. It just means that it has a specific set that it abuses amazingly. Same for Fletch.

K, I predicted both HP Grasses to avoid my tirtouga being ko'd "BAM", no matter how simple the prediction is it's not 100% guaranteed. That SD is almost mandatory on Fletchling for it to do any real damage, Pawniard has enough Atk, and doesn't need anything boosted to hit hard, esp w/ the knock off boost. All it does is make it a great mon your right, but it's not broken in anyway lol.

Also I never mentioned Mienfoo / Timburr / Scraggy / Foongus, so idk where that came from.

 

[Diana]

Easy. Just forgo roost and have better rapid spin/defog support. Losing roost is a non-problem for Fletchling basically. And your argument about Missy transfers over to Fletchling as well. Fletchling has the same relevant amount of checks as Missy, and they're both able to hit their checks with appropriate coverage. I don't even understand what your point is.

Okay, let me try to put this whole thing a different way so you at least understand what I mean. If you still don't agree that's no problem at all, just trying to make sure we at least get what the other is talking about.

Misdreavus' most dangerous set runs Shadow Ball and Nasty Plot, leaving it two slots for coverage. What does it need to worry about? Pawniard, Fletchling, Porygon, Scraggy, Vullaby, Zigzagoon, Aipom, and Houndour are the most common ones. So it gets two slots to deal with that. Hidden Power Fighting smacks Houndour, Aipom, Zigzagoon, Scraggy, Pawniard, and Porygon. Will-O-Wisp spreads the burns that Pawniard, Fletchling, Scraggy (barring Shed Skin, and even then it doesn't exactly enjoy it), Vullaby to an extent, and Aipom don't want to take. Sure, something like Dazzling Gleam or Thunderbolt is an option depending if you really need to hit certain things harder, but Misdreavus can deal with most of what it wants to within four moves.

Now Fletchling on the other hand is going to run Acrobatics, Swords Dance, and U-turn, leaving one slot. Now you know I like Roost on it, but let's go with really good support and forgo it and leave the slot for a coverage move. What are the most important things to hit? Pawniard, Magnemite, Archen, Chinchou, Tirtouga, Omanyte, and Onix. In that slot it could run Overheat for Pawniard and Magnemite, Steel Wing for Archen, or Hidden Power Grass for Tirtouga, Omanyte, and Onix. Whatever it chooses leaves Fletchling more open to more things than Misdreavus is in any given set. That's the difference I was trying to explain, and I apologize if I wasn't very clear about it in my previous posts.

 

[LightningLuxray]

Now Fletchling on the other hand is going to run Acrobatics, Swords Dance, and U-turn, leaving one slot. Now you know I like Roost on it, but let's go with really good support and forgo it and leave the slot for a coverage move. What are the most important things to hit? Pawniard, Magnemite, Archen, Chinchou, Tirtouga, Omanyte, and Onix. In that slot it could run Overheat for Pawniard and Magnemite, Steel Wing for Archen, or Hidden Power Grass for Tirtouga, Omanyte, and Onix. Whatever it chooses leaves Fletchling more open to more things than Misdreavus is in any given set. That's the difference I was trying to explain, and I apologize if I wasn't very clear about it in my previous posts.

I'm just going to point out as someone who won a LOT of my battles with Fletchling, I never used U-turn. The set I ran was Overheat / Return / Swords Dance / Acrobatics, and it worked out fine. The loss in momentum can kind of suck, but pulling a hard switch really isn't that hard, and IMO being able to hit Chinchou, Magnenemite, Ferroseed, and Pawniard is worth it.

Not supporting that Fletch should be banned, just saying U-turn isn't 100% needed like Acro or SD are.

 

[Fiend]

After a bit more thought here is my post:
1. Is Fletchling broken?

Simply put, yes. Fletchling can bypass some/most of its checks depending on who you ask and what it runs. Overheat ruins Magnemite on the switch, and screws over Pawniard allowing Acrobatics to finish it off . HP Grass can also be run to take care of both Omanyte and Tirtouga, and even the rare Binacle. You can even argue that Steel Wing takes care of Archen, though I disagree with the small 6.3% chance to kill even after SR (technically about 13% chance factoring in crits but whatever). However, SR are needed for Magnemite, Evio Pawniard, Archen, and Tirtuoga (2 switching needed for Eviolite, but you can simply use U-Turn after HP Grass, not letting it switch in next time). Legitimately, all that is needed for HP Grass and Overheat to function properly is 36 EV's in Special Attack and a neutral nature. I'm not going to touch Natural Gift Fletch as I just don't understand how it works consistently, but even that can't beat RestTalk Chinchou: the one true Fletchling counter. But even then, the infamous FletchDig core disposes of this anyhow. Swords Dance is what makes Fletchling so damn lethal however. After any Flying resists are eliminated, and the bulkiest of walls worn down to 70-80%, a +2 Fletchling simply tears through a team. You can't outspeed it unless you have Extreme Speed or Fake Out (or Feint lol). The one problem with Fletchling is only having four moveslots, letting having Tirtuoga + Magnemite beat it.

EDIT: Archen can't switch in again after the first Steel Wing.

• 196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Archen: 8-10 (34.7 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
• 196+ Atk Fletchling Steel Wing vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Archen: 14-18 (60.8 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Also fails to KO with Rock Tomb in Defeatist range.

• 180 Atk Defeatist Archen Rock Tomb vs. 156 HP / 92 Def Fletchling: 14-18 (60.8 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

2. Is Fletchling making Little Cup not fun?

Subjective question. Again, personally no. But I enjoy using Magnemite and Omanyte regardless so I don't work about a solo Fletchling. Using niche mons to beat Fletchling is rather fun, using LO Fletch (or other odd Fletch sets) is even more fun. But to each their own.
3. Is a combination of 1 or 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?

I have seen people completely rage quit because of this bird. If I can make 3 or 4 people completely go offline for 20 minutes or so in a month (so 30-40 ladder battles) because of this one pokemon, the answer is evidently going to be a yes. Please ban Fletch.

 

[Diana]

I'm just going to point out as someone who won a LOT of my battles with Fletchling, I never used U-turn. The set I ran was Overheat / Return / Swords Dance / Acrobatics, and it worked out fine. The loss in momentum can kind of suck, but pulling a hard switch really isn't that hard, and IMO being able to hit Chinchou, Magnenemite, Ferroseed, and Pawniard is worth it.

Not supporting that Fletch should be banned, just saying U-turn isn't 100% needed like Acro or SD are.

I've always found U-turn to be really valuable to be able to have a sure answer to what the opponent decides to switch in, especially in the case of an opponent having multiple checks. I'd say it's definitely more important than Roost but I could see some situations where three attacks could come in handy, such as when the opponent ends up with just one really obvious Fletchling check.