Gen 6 np: XY Ubers Gengarite Suspect Test - In The Shadows [READ POST #71]

Status
Not open for further replies.

shrang

General Kenobi
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Just another thing I noticed earlier in the thread that I think should be addressed: Shed Shell. No, I'm going to be here to tell to run Shed Shell on all your Pokes to escape Shadow Tag, it's just impractical. However, I also think it's pretty unfair for people to just dismiss it either. The arguments I tended to see against Shed Shell were usually quite strawman in nature. When someone brought up Shed Shell, a common response was "well it's just dumb that you'd be forced to run Shed Shell on everything just to avoid being trapped" (my emphasis). Well, you don't have to run Shed Shell on all of your Pokemon to do enough to curb the effects of Shadow Tag, just on those that are most Shadow Tag-weak. I personally never run Shed Shell because it just sucks and have no need for it, even with Shadow Tag around, but I can understand that for some teams, you may need to use it. I'm not going to tell you to run Shed Shell on everything, but one obvious thing you can do is just run Shed Shell on those of your team that are most vulnerable. That means running it on stuff like Blissey and Wallceus, Pokemon that are absolutely helpless against Shadow Taggers. Obviously, you don't need to put Shed Shell on your Ygod or something like that because Gengar can't trap it easily without getting into a 50/50 with Taunt/Destiny Bond (if you have U-turn you just laugh at it). If you have something like Grassceus, it may pay to add Dark Pulse (credits to Orch) so Gengar doesn't get free switches everywhere and you may be able to force 50/50s. In the end, if you use it properly, Shed Shell, while a shitty argument by itself, when taken into the big picture, can be useful and shouldn't be discounted immediately.
 

Fireburn

BARN ALL
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
there's also the case of slippery slope: first it's gengarite/mega gengar, next up would probably be shadow tag. But what happens after that? Xerneas maybe? it's very easy to use the terms "over centralizing" and "uncompetitive", both of which i think are bullshit, on xerneas as well.
We made it clear in the original post that this is not, and never, going to happen. Slippery slope is a logical fallacy anyway. Do not use this as an argument.

Secondly, I want to just get this out of the way because I'm tired of people throwing this around like some sort of holy grail: Pursuit is NOT a reliable solution to Mega Gengar

Let's start with a basic Gengar set:

Gengar @ Gengarite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast
- Taunt
- Destiny Bond

The only difference between this set and the standard is the choice of STAB move. You can still trap Grassceus and Fairies without Sludge Wave and Shadow Ball lets you trap Lugia better (who is a very important mon on most stall because it checks like everything), hit Ghosts, and screw Landorus/Gliscor/insert Ground-type here. It is a perfectly viable move and is getting more popular with more Aegislash cropping up on stall/defensive builds.

Here is what this Gengar set does to your Pursuit trappers:

252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Scizor: 160-189 (46.5 - 54.9%) -- 62.1% chance to 2HKO (Standard Mega Scizor, Guaranteed after SR)

252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Scizor: 192-226 (55.8 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (CB Scizor)

252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 216+ SpD Mega Scizor: 118-141 (34.3 - 40.9%) (This 2HKOes with SR + some prior damage or if you come in as normal Scizor)

Mega Gengar also survives CB Scizor BP after Stealth Rock which means it can trap something else immediately after killing your Scizor. There is literally no prediction involved - you just use your STAB move.

Also, Mega Scizor's Pursuit does not KO Gengar if it stays in. Hope you like coinflips!

Now for Aegislash:

252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aegislash-Shield: 174-206 (53.7 - 63.5%) -- 2HKO

Aegislash cannot OHKO Gengar with either Shadow Sneak or Pursuit, and if it switches out (it is a Ghost so it can if you need it to check Xerneas which is Aegis's actual main job), it failed to trap Gengar. Again, no real prediction, you just click your STAB.

Now for Tyranitar:

252 SpA Mega Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Chople Berry Tyranitar in Sand: 196-232 (48.5 - 57.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Tyranitar is more reliable but still risky because unlike Scizor and Aegislash it cannot threaten a weakened Gengar with priority. Also Pursuit doesn't come close to KOing Gengar if it decides to stay in:

4 Atk Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 134-162 (51.1 - 61.8%)

So yeah, this is also a bunch of coinflips. If Gengar calls your switch and Focus Blasts TTar loses. If Gengar stays in and TTar uses Pursuit TTar loses. If Gengar switches and TTar uses Crunch/Payback, TTar still loses because now Gengar gets to trap something else and it can still potentially Focus Blast/DBond your hopeless TTar. If TTar doesn't switch in at all to save your cleric/Arceus-Grass, why bother running Pursuit on it?

Now before you start laughing at me because I used damage calculations in a suspect argument, it's only meant to be an introduction to my main point: whether or not your Pursuit trapper actually works depends almost entirely on Mega Gengar's moveset and winning coinflips. I didn't even mention specific things that Gengar can do to royally screw over certain Pursuit trappers like using Reflect Type (which owns all of them, even Tomb), Will-O-Wisp, Hidden Power Fire for Scizor, or even avoiding Pursuit altogether with Substitute - Gengar can beat every common Pursuiter with one set that functions the exact same way as its standard set just by changing which STAB move it decides to use. In the end, you have to pray the opponent's Gengar isn't using a set that beats your chosen Pursuit trapper...which isn't something you can predict from Team Preview, or can even do anything about if you even have the wrong one.

And yeah, while Mega Gengar is frail, it isn't THAT frail. That means actually Pursuit trapping it comes down to coinflips (do I Pursuit or do I use a stronger attack to go for the OHKO) because, hey, Pursuit is actually weak when the opponent doesn't switch out, so much so that Mega Gengar can actually survive Pursuit from Scizor, TTar, and Aegislash if it stays in and attacks! In addition, most teams that use Gengar aren't going to be completely screwed if it gets Pursuited or DBonds the Pursuiter, because most of them don't rely on Gengar as their sole (primary sure, but not only) means of eliminating the main obstacle to the opponent' sweeper. On the other hand, if Gengar doesn't get trapped, the team relying on Pursuit to protect their other Pokemon is screwed. And even if Gengar is forced to use Destiny Bond for whatever reason, the team using Pursuit still loses something important - their Pursuiter, which does important things other than trap Gengar. Scizor checks Xerneas and EKiller and might be a Defogger. TTar sets up Stealth Rock, Sand for Excadrill, and checks other really threatening mons to defensive teams such as Darkrai and Yveltal. Aegislash is a hard Xerneas check and beats some other things like Lucario and Mewtwo X. All of these Pokemon fulfill roles that potentially make them the Pokemon Mega Gengar WANTS to trap instead of the other way around.

So basically, if you want to successfully "beat" Gengar, three things have to happen, none of which involve skill:

1. Gengar is not running a set that beats your chosen Pursuit trapper (this is decided by teambuilder, you pretty much have no way of predicting this)
2. You actually win the 50/50 as to whether Gengar will stay in or switch out (This is not a display of skill because there is no "best play" in a coinflip situation, I can name a BOTW and some SPL matches that were decided by coinflips against Mega Gengar)
3. Your Pursuit trapper is not the Pokemon Gengar is actually trying to kill

tl;dr - You are only deluding yourself if you think Pursuit is a reliable way to stop Mega Gengar.

Disclaimer: I never said Pursuit never works. I am saying it is far from reliable.

Disclaimer 2: I did not talk much about Spiritomb because I do not know what set people use on it. If one of you who does use it can share that info with me, I'd be grateful. I would like to say, however, that "Spiritomb" is not a reason to not ban Gengarite. It is, at least from my understanding, even more specialized/niche than Gastrodon, which is impressive.
 
Just another thing I noticed earlier in the thread that I think should be addressed: Shed Shell. No, I'm going to be here to tell to run Shed Shell on all your Pokes to escape Shadow Tag, it's just impractical. However, I also think it's pretty unfair for people to just dismiss it either. The arguments I tended to see against Shed Shell were usually quite strawman in nature. When someone brought up Shed Shell, a common response was "well it's just dumb that you'd be forced to run Shed Shell on everything just to avoid being trapped" (my emphasis). Well, you don't have to run Shed Shell on all of your Pokemon to do enough to curb the effects of Shadow Tag, just on those that are most Shadow Tag-weak. I personally never run Shed Shell because it just sucks and have no need for it, even with Shadow Tag around, but I can understand that for some teams, you may need to use it. I'm not going to tell you to run Shed Shell on everything, but one obvious thing you can do is just run Shed Shell on those of your team that are most vulnerable. That means running it on stuff like Blissey and Wallceus, Pokemon that are absolutely helpless against Shadow Taggers. Obviously, you don't need to put Shed Shell on your Ygod or something like that because Gengar can't trap it easily without getting into a 50/50 with Taunt/Destiny Bond (if you have U-turn you just laugh at it). If you have something like Grassceus, it may pay to add Dark Pulse (credits to Orch) so Gengar doesn't get free switches everywhere and you may be able to force 50/50s. In the end, if you use it properly, Shed Shell, while a shitty argument by itself, when taken into the big picture, can be useful and shouldn't be discounted immediately.
The only reason that people are running Shed Shell is because of Shadow Tag. The two Pokemon you mentioned, Blissey and Wallceus, would much rather be holding Leftovers, which has a consistent effect, rather than Shed Shell, which is only useful against Shadow Tag. If anything, the fact that people are using (or considering using) a Shed Shell adds more weight to the argument that Mega Gengar is overcentralizing.

Secondly, I want to just get this out of the way because I'm tired of people throwing this around like some sort of holy grail: Pursuit is NOT a reliable solution to Mega Gengar

Let's start with a basic Gengar set:

Gengar @ Gengarite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast
- Taunt
- Destiny Bond

The only difference between this set and the standard is the choice of STAB move. You can still trap Grassceus and Fairies without Sludge Wave and Shadow Ball lets you trap Lugia better (who is a very important mon on most stall because it checks like everything), hit Ghosts, and screw Landorus/Gliscor/insert Ground-type here. It is a perfectly viable move and is getting more popular with more Aegislash cropping up on stall/defensive builds.

Here is what this Gengar set does to your Pursuit trappers:

252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Scizor: 160-189 (46.5 - 54.9%) -- 62.1% chance to 2HKO (Standard Mega Scizor, Guaranteed after SR)

252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Scizor: 192-226 (55.8 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (CB Scizor)

252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 216+ SpD Mega Scizor: 118-141 (34.3 - 40.9%) (This 2HKOes with SR + some prior damage or if you come in as normal Scizor)

Mega Gengar also survives CB Scizor BP after Stealth Rock which means it can trap something else immediately after killing your Scizor. There is literally no prediction involved - you just use your STAB move.

Also, Mega Scizor's Pursuit does not KO Gengar if it stays in. Hope you like coinflips!

Now for Aegislash:

252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aegislash-Shield: 174-206 (53.7 - 63.5%) -- 2HKO

Aegislash cannot OHKO Gengar with either Shadow Sneak or Pursuit, and if it switches out (it is a Ghost so it can if you need it to check Xerneas which is Aegis's actual main job), it failed to trap Gengar. Again, no real prediction, you just click your STAB.

Now for Tyranitar:

252 SpA Mega Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Chople Berry Tyranitar in Sand: 196-232 (48.5 - 57.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Tyranitar is more reliable but still risky because unlike Scizor and Aegislash it cannot threaten a weakened Gengar with priority. Also Pursuit doesn't come close to KOing Gengar if it decides to stay in:

4 Atk Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 134-162 (51.1 - 61.8%)

So yeah, this is also a bunch of coinflips. If Gengar calls your switch and Focus Blasts TTar loses. If Gengar stays in and TTar uses Pursuit TTar loses. If Gengar switches and TTar uses Crunch/Payback, TTar still loses because now Gengar gets to trap something else and it can still potentially Focus Blast/DBond your hopeless TTar. If TTar doesn't switch in at all to save your cleric/Arceus-Grass, why bother running Pursuit on it?

Now before you start laughing at me because I used damage calculations in a suspect argument, it's only meant to be an introduction to my main point: whether or not your Pursuit trapper actually works depends almost entirely on Mega Gengar's moveset and winning coinflips. I didn't even mention specific things that Gengar can do to royally screw over certain Pursuit trappers like using Reflect Type (which owns all of them, even Tomb), Will-O-Wisp, Hidden Power Fire for Scizor, or even avoiding Pursuit altogether with Substitute - Gengar can beat every common Pursuiter with one set that functions the exact same way as its standard set just by changing which STAB move it decides to use. In the end, you have to pray the opponent's Gengar isn't using a set that beats your chosen Pursuit trapper...which isn't something you can predict from Team Preview, or can even do anything about if you even have the wrong one.

And yeah, while Mega Gengar is frail, it isn't THAT frail. That means actually Pursuit trapping it comes down to coinflips (do I Pursuit or do I use a stronger attack to go for the OHKO) because, hey, Pursuit is actually weak when the opponent doesn't switch out, so much so that Mega Gengar can actually survive Pursuit from Scizor, TTar, and Aegislash if it stays in and attacks! In addition, most teams that use Gengar aren't going to be completely screwed if it gets Pursuited or DBonds the Pursuiter, because most of them don't rely on Gengar as their sole (primary sure, but not only) means of eliminating the main obstacle to the opponent' sweeper. On the other hand, if Gengar doesn't get trapped, the team relying on Pursuit to protect their other Pokemon is screwed. And even if Gengar is forced to use Destiny Bond for whatever reason, the team using Pursuit still loses something important - their Pursuiter, which does important things other than trap Gengar. Scizor checks Xerneas and EKiller and might be a Defogger. TTar sets up Stealth Rock, Sand for Excadrill, and checks other really threatening mons to defensive teams such as Darkrai and Yveltal. Aegislash is a hard Xerneas check and beats some other things like Lucario and Mewtwo X. All of these Pokemon fulfill roles that potentially make them the Pokemon Mega Gengar WANTS to trap instead of the other way around.

So basically, if you want to successfully "beat" Gengar, three things have to happen, none of which involve skill:

1. Gengar is not running a set that beats your chosen Pursuit trapper (this is decided by teambuilder, you pretty much have no way of predicting this)
2. You actually win the 50/50 as to whether Gengar will stay in or switch out (This is not a display of skill because there is no "best play" in a coinflip situation, I can name a BOTW and some SPL matches that were decided by coinflips against Mega Gengar)
3. Your Pursuit trapper is not the Pokemon Gengar is actually trying to kill

tl;dr - You are only deluding yourself if you think Pursuit is a reliable way to stop Mega Gengar.

Disclaimer: I never said Pursuit never works. I am saying it is far from reliable.

Disclaimer 2: I did not talk much about Spiritomb because I do not know what set people use on it. If one of you who does use it can share that info with me, I'd be grateful. I would like to say, however, that "Spiritomb" is not a reason to not ban Gengarite. It is, at least from my understanding, even more specialized/niche than Gastrodon, which is impressive.
Just to add to this point, Perish Trap Gengar completely laughs in the face of Pursuit. If it predicts correctly, Mega Gengar can take the hit, set up Perish Song, stall the next turn with Protect / Substitute, and then switch out on the final turn. This leaves the opponent at 5-6 down with Gengar successfully Mega-evolved; a massive situational advantage.
 
Last edited:
The only reason that people are running Shed Shell is because of Shadow Tag. The two Pokemon you mentioned, Blissey and Wallceus, would much rather be holding Leftovers, which has a consistent effect, rather than Shed Shell, which is only useful against Shadow Tag. If anything, the fact that people are using (or considering using) a Shed Shell adds more weight to the argument that Mega Gengar is overcentralizing.



Just to add to this point, Perish Trap Gengar completely laughs in the face of Pursuit. If it predicts correctly, Mega Gengar can take the hit, set up Perish Song, stall the next turn with Protect / Substitute, and then switch out on the final turn. This leaves the opponent at 5-6 down with Gengar successfully Mega-evolved; a massive situational advantage.
Who cares if it's overcentralizing? This argument continues to hold NO value in Ubers. Even Darkrai could be considered overcentralizing because some things hold Lum Berry or carry Sleep Talk instead of normally superior options.

I'm sure we'd all appreciate some new points being brought up because we're going in circles right now.
 
Fireburn, here is the Spiritomb set that C Allstar peaked the ladder with:

Spiritomb @ Assault Vest
Trait : Infiltrator
EVs : 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Pursuit
- Foul Play
- Shadow Sneak
- Sucker Punch


I posted it a few days ago but the post was deleted for being "off topic" lol. For what it's worth, it may be niche, but it also beats Deo-A and most Mewtwos (not stalltwo).
 
Just consider this as a reply to Melee Mewtwo 's posts in general, since he talks about "choice" in depth. And, his posts have considerable of additional bullshit that are irrelevant and I don't care about replying to. (Just a btw, your thought experiment was just ridiculous. Gengarite does not automatically faint all uber mons in existence. It's not even comparable smh.) I think that his position on gengarite can be summed up to "gengarite (consequently shadow tag) is uncompetitive because you can't switch, so you cannot respond to gengarite".

Back to the relationship between gengarite and choices. Firstly, I want to make it crystal clear about my opinion of gengarite. Gengarite is possibly the best pokemon/item/semantics (/s) ever to be released. It's a ridiculously broken pokemon. I expect absolutely no argument about this point. I contend that gengarite restrict teambuilding, centralize metagame, and is a real force of XY Ubers metagame.

My view is that gengarite eliminating every single possible choice is just bullshit. Pro-banners fail to acknowledge that there's actually choice to be NOT weak to gengarite. Despite of what people say, pursuit does work and it can easily abuse the 1 turn of non-shadow tag to trap and kill gengar-mega. To claim otherwise is preposterous, and I can gather and post a horde of replays displaying successful pursuit traps. The 1 turn of no shadow tag is a huge and devastating flaw of gengarite.

Now, gengarite is also vulnerable to the other 4 choices that your victim has. The such choices are "moves". This might be shocking but, there are moves that actually can punish and inflict massive damage to gengarite so that it is forced to do 1 for 1 or risk being useless. For god's sake, this is ubers. All uber pokemon has massive move pool. If you can't find anything that delay or deter gengar-mega from killing you, then you shouldn't bother building teams. (yes, this is a git gud argument, a lot of ppl use crappy stag weak teams and want to ban stag [hello piexplode/nayryz/krau])

The only reason for banning gengarite should be that it is impossible to prepare for gengarite in any time, including team builder, or that it is a undesirable addition to ubers (a subjective criteria, but that's why we banned stupid/luck based stuff). If you think that gengarite qualifies one of these two criteria, then please post explaining how it qualify such criteria.
Your argument boils down to: There are existing options in teambuilder to deal with Shadow Tag and therefore it is not sufficiently uncompetitive. This has never been a precedent for any existing clauses. Own Tempo Numel, Haze Murkrow, Insomnia Noctowl, etc. I could list less gimmicky options if that becomes part of your argument but I shouldn't have to.

You've also got a lot of nerve throwing potshots around. I don't think I've read anything so cringe in this entire thread. (and trust me, there's a lot of garbage that's been deleted)

Shrang's Shed Shell argument is mostly irrelevent as it doesn't address the actual issue, which is why I'm not going to respond to it in this post.

Anyways, as worthlessnoob has pointed out, this thread is going to be going in circles. The reason is because the observations that:
1. Shadow Tag significantly removes choice
2. Shadow Tag's ability to do so is clearly noticeable in the metagame

can't be denied. Seeing as these two observations are the exact premises used for every other existing clause, (I can paint the full picture if you want) there's really not much left to discuss. As a result, there's just going to be a bunch of hairsplitting, downplaying, and tangents.

Oh actually, I'll respond to the Ubers as a tier / banlist / whatever in an edit that'll be stuck in hide tags since it's not really relevant but very interesting to talk about nonetheless.
Honestly, I think the best way to think of Ubers is as a ready-made. Ubers isn't really fabricated like other metagames, such as OU, are. It already existed as vanilla Pokemon. The only real difference is that we attached a couple clauses because how we looked at this game changed. We made it into a metagame by calling it such. Anybody else could do what Smogon did. Hell, they already have; you can play the same thing over on PO.

Ubers as a tier, banlist, whatever is really a misconception. It's not wrong, it's just confusing and not entirely accurate. What is the banlist is is, well, the list of Pokemon dubbed Ubers. Which is exactly the same thing as a tier in this case. But those things only apply to OU and its whole system, they have nothing to do with what we play and are talking about itt, which is the Ubers metagame. It's about perspective, really.
 
Last edited:

aVocado

@ Everstone
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
I'm going to be honest here that I only got to ubers very recently and I'm no where near as skilled as some other good battlers on this thread, but I just want to share my experience with the Ubers ladder after using and going against Mega Gengar for a while. I have to agree with a lot of the previous posters about how fucking amazing the combination of Shadow Tag, Taunt, and Destiny Bond is. I'm using a hazards stacking team with Taunt + Destiny Bond Gengar and I can often easily lure, kill, and prevent the opponent's defogger from doing its job. It's a very effective and very easy strategy that even I, a user that's not very experienced with Ubers as a metagame, could so effortlessly pull off. Preventing the opponent from removing hazards can open paths to other dangerous sweepers to do their job.. Ekiller and Ho-Oh appreciate this, especially since with the right plays that are often not hard to pull off, Gengar can easily get rid of Ghostceus and Rockceus and even Grasseus and other shit like Palkia, for Kyogre to sweep unhindered. Basically, Mega Gengar is so flexible that it can literally trap anything you want it to with ease, from defoggers to walls to bringing down stall, it can do that all easily.

I can definitely see where people are coming from, calling it uncompetitive, and I wholeheartedly agree from my experience with it so far. It picks its own counters, and removes choice from the hands of the opponent. I'll come back later with a more detailed post when I play on the ladder more, but for now these are my thoughts.
 
Chatted with wreckdra, posting logs cause:
WreckDra:btw, about the suspect test
WreckDra:the way you brought switching into the already existing clauses
WreckDra:why don't you just post what you toldd me there
WreckDra:on the thread
+Melee Mewtwo:i can
+Melee Mewtwo:i'll just post logs cause lazy
WreckDra:oh ok lol
WreckDra:You answered my concernes
WreckDra:that is something no one has done yet
+Melee Mewtwo:oh neat
WreckDra:I have a new voting stance as a result :]

WreckDra: I assume you mean that the use of the word "significantly" is why the thread is going in circles.
WreckDra: without going into much detail about it
+Melee Mewtwo: umm not sure
+Melee Mewtwo: i mean you can't say
+Melee Mewtwo: not being able to switch
+Melee Mewtwo: isn't significant
WreckDra: that is the thing
+Melee Mewtwo: it's mostly
+Melee Mewtwo: just where the lines are
WreckDra: people can
+Melee Mewtwo: like people talking about how many turns this matters in etc etc etc
+Melee Mewtwo: you can use shed shell for this that and the other etc etc etc
+Melee Mewtwo: it's all details and not addressing the core issues
+Melee Mewtwo: because you have to be downplaying shit really hard to deny that not switching isn't something significant
+Melee Mewtwo: and that shadow tag abusers haven't impacted hte metagame
WreckDra: Unfortunately, some people don't have to downplay at all to reach these conclusions is the issue.
WreckDra: people are strange in that way.
WreckDra: I personally have issues finding something that says we are not lowering the bar on what we ban.
+Melee Mewtwo: well tht's a completely different thing imo
WreckDra: Because we are if this goes through.
WreckDra: that is a concern that many have
+Melee Mewtwo: what gives you
+Melee Mewtwo: that impression
+Melee Mewtwo: for starters
+Melee Mewtwo: like can you specify or is it just a vague feeling?
WreckDra: I can
WreckDra: I already have in my two posts on the thread
WreckDra: although i can summarize them here
+Melee Mewtwo: nah iirc
+Melee Mewtwo: you were syaing
+Melee Mewtwo: there's not precedent
+Melee Mewtwo: whcih is where i disagree
+Melee Mewtwo: okay let's try this then um
WreckDra: that wasn't the point of it
+Melee Mewtwo: h it wasn't?
+Melee Mewtwo: yeah sum the posts up then
+Melee Mewtwo: saves me time pulling them back up
WreckDra: I was saying that it does not quite match the extremities of the most comparable ban at this point
WreckDra: which is Endless battle
+Melee Mewtwo: isn't that saying
+Melee Mewtwo: there's no precedent?
+Melee Mewtwo: also i dislike the way you compare the bans personally
WreckDra: no
WreckDra: there is
+Melee Mewtwo: they all come down to those two observations i mentioned
+Melee Mewtwo: well no precedent in that
+Melee Mewtwo: there's nothing to this low level (idk if right words)
+Melee Mewtwo: that's been of this type?
+Melee Mewtwo: does the word precdent not describe that?
WreckDra: There isn't enough precedent is a better way to put it
WreckDra: there is precedent
+Melee Mewtwo: alright fair
WreckDra: just not enough
WreckDra: to make it match anything else
WreckDra: in terms of extremity
+Melee Mewtwo: how do you measure
+Melee Mewtwo: extremity?
WreckDra: Right now I am directly comparing it to endless battle.
WreckDra: where the same idea
WreckDra: that it removes your chooice to switch is
WreckDra: only this takes it to a whole 'nother extreme
WreckDra: since your only 2 choices
WreckDra: are forfiet, or continue
+Melee Mewtwo: the importance of the choice to switch however is the impact the player's choice can haveon the game
WreckDra: Shadow Tag removes the choice of switch and removes team building options
+Melee Mewtwo: switching is *the* tool for doing so
+Melee Mewtwo: that's why removing it is a problem
+Melee Mewtwo: bu that's not *super exactly* the reason it gets the jimmies rustled
+Melee Mewtwo: for them ost part though the other things limited switching as well
+Melee Mewtwo: for example
+Melee Mewtwo: what made OHKO op was bulky kyogre and excadrill
+Melee Mewtwo: okay useing op very loosely here
+Melee Mewtwo: i hope you get what i'm getting at
+Melee Mewtwo: anyways
+Melee Mewtwo: kyogre could force lots of switches
+Melee Mewtwo: so lots of room
+Melee Mewtwo: to roll the dice
+Melee Mewtwo: excadrill kinda was same boat except
+Melee Mewtwo: it nuked your ghost type regardless
+Melee Mewtwo: of how bulky / healthy it was
+Melee Mewtwo: so your switch
+Melee Mewtwo: was meaningless
WreckDra: I remember seeing fissure don also
+Melee Mewtwo: it was indiscriminate punish
WreckDra: although less common then those you outlined
+Melee Mewtwo: the indisciminate punish for switching
+Melee Mewtwo: is same thing with sleep as well
+Melee Mewtwo: both of these caluses removes the impact the players choice
+Melee Mewtwo: had on teh game state
+Melee Mewtwo: more or less around switching
+Melee Mewtwo: ohko and sleep weren't direct as tag
+Melee Mewtwo: but that's what arguably makes them less menacing
+Melee Mewtwo: you still had to find the situations
+Melee Mewtwo: to make that kyogre create those forced switches
+Melee Mewtwo: and then you could not get lucky
+Melee Mewtwo: so had to do it mulitple times
+Melee Mewtwo: tag just deals with it outright
+Melee Mewtwo: no questions asked
+Melee Mewtwo: moody was more or less same boat since you needed that free turn
+Melee Mewtwo: to get the protect / sub cycle going
+Melee Mewtwo: unless you wer lucky with instant speed boost
+Melee Mewtwo: and then you had a super pokemon
+Melee Mewtwo: swagger was another indiscriminate punish on switching
+Melee Mewtwo: or at least tht's oneway i implemented it
+Melee Mewtwo: swagplay is a diff animal
+Melee Mewtwo: it was morethat it forced you to switch and take damage
+Melee Mewtwo: or stay in and play dice
+Melee Mewtwo: normally switchingout of an unfavorable matchup allows you to have a more favorable one
+Melee Mewtwo: but with swagger it didn't
+Melee Mewtwo: so your switch was meaningless
+Melee Mewtwo: (i hope my monologueing wasn't too much a bother)
WreckDra: na
WreckDra: It brought switching into all of the clauses
WreckDra: which is something i did not do
+Melee Mewtwo: yeah it's the fundamental gameplay mechanic in "competitive" mons
WreckDra: Although Tag isn't a punisher
+Melee Mewtwo: no it just eliminates the option
+Melee Mewtwo: same damage different details
+Melee Mewtwo: the other clauses basically made switching a non beneficial option
+Melee Mewtwo: instead of outright saying you can't do it
+Melee Mewtwo: it was just blatantly stupid to do so
 

Karxrida

Death to the Undying Savage
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
Sorry for double posting, but I want to make something clear about the "removal of choice" argument. I hate to turn this into a slippery slope so I won't make it part of this debate, but the whole removal of choice thing is dangerous to lay down as precedent. Maybe I'm just paranoid here, but pretty much every Pokemon in the game has a potential to have a "removal of choice" component. For example, Xerneas removes or curbs the choice of running Choiced Dragons, Kyogre forces you to run Palkia/Gastro/Ferrothorn/whatever. All of them remove choice in a way. Now again, I'm not using this as a counterargument to the Shadow Tag scenario (I've got much better rebuttals above), but if we do ban Shadow Tag, I hope people are not ridiculous enough to use that justification for whatever is convenient to their case later on.
Precedent is actually a legitmate concern and something of an exception of the "fallacy" part of a Slippery Slope, since lawmaking bodies (which the tiering system can be likened to) will use precedent to justify their decisions.
 
We made it clear in the original post that this is not, and never, going to happen. Slippery slope is a logical fallacy anyway. Do not use this as an argument.

Secondly, I want to just get this out of the way because I'm tired of people throwing this around like some sort of holy grail: Pursuit is NOT a reliable solution to Mega Gengar

Let's start with a basic Gengar set:

Gengar @ Gengarite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast
- Taunt
- Destiny Bond

The only difference between this set and the standard is the choice of STAB move. You can still trap Grassceus and Fairies without Sludge Wave and Shadow Ball lets you trap Lugia better (who is a very important mon on most stall because it checks like everything), hit Ghosts, and screw Landorus/Gliscor/insert Ground-type here. It is a perfectly viable move and is getting more popular with more Aegislash cropping up on stall/defensive builds.

Here is what this Gengar set does to your Pursuit trappers:

252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Scizor: 160-189 (46.5 - 54.9%) -- 62.1% chance to 2HKO (Standard Mega Scizor, Guaranteed after SR)

252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Scizor: 192-226 (55.8 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (CB Scizor)

252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 216+ SpD Mega Scizor: 118-141 (34.3 - 40.9%) (This 2HKOes with SR + some prior damage or if you come in as normal Scizor)

Mega Gengar also survives CB Scizor BP after Stealth Rock which means it can trap something else immediately after killing your Scizor. There is literally no prediction involved - you just use your STAB move.

Also, Mega Scizor's Pursuit does not KO Gengar if it stays in. Hope you like coinflips!

Now for Aegislash:

252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aegislash-Shield: 174-206 (53.7 - 63.5%) -- 2HKO

Aegislash cannot OHKO Gengar with either Shadow Sneak or Pursuit, and if it switches out (it is a Ghost so it can if you need it to check Xerneas which is Aegis's actual main job), it failed to trap Gengar. Again, no real prediction, you just click your STAB.

Now for Tyranitar:

252 SpA Mega Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Chople Berry Tyranitar in Sand: 196-232 (48.5 - 57.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Tyranitar is more reliable but still risky because unlike Scizor and Aegislash it cannot threaten a weakened Gengar with priority. Also Pursuit doesn't come close to KOing Gengar if it decides to stay in:

4 Atk Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 134-162 (51.1 - 61.8%)

So yeah, this is also a bunch of coinflips. If Gengar calls your switch and Focus Blasts TTar loses. If Gengar stays in and TTar uses Pursuit TTar loses. If Gengar switches and TTar uses Crunch/Payback, TTar still loses because now Gengar gets to trap something else and it can still potentially Focus Blast/DBond your hopeless TTar. If TTar doesn't switch in at all to save your cleric/Arceus-Grass, why bother running Pursuit on it?

Now before you start laughing at me because I used damage calculations in a suspect argument, it's only meant to be an introduction to my main point: whether or not your Pursuit trapper actually works depends almost entirely on Mega Gengar's moveset and winning coinflips. I didn't even mention specific things that Gengar can do to royally screw over certain Pursuit trappers like using Reflect Type (which owns all of them, even Tomb), Will-O-Wisp, Hidden Power Fire for Scizor, or even avoiding Pursuit altogether with Substitute - Gengar can beat every common Pursuiter with one set that functions the exact same way as its standard set just by changing which STAB move it decides to use. In the end, you have to pray the opponent's Gengar isn't using a set that beats your chosen Pursuit trapper...which isn't something you can predict from Team Preview, or can even do anything about if you even have the wrong one.

And yeah, while Mega Gengar is frail, it isn't THAT frail. That means actually Pursuit trapping it comes down to coinflips (do I Pursuit or do I use a stronger attack to go for the OHKO) because, hey, Pursuit is actually weak when the opponent doesn't switch out, so much so that Mega Gengar can actually survive Pursuit from Scizor, TTar, and Aegislash if it stays in and attacks! In addition, most teams that use Gengar aren't going to be completely screwed if it gets Pursuited or DBonds the Pursuiter, because most of them don't rely on Gengar as their sole (primary sure, but not only) means of eliminating the main obstacle to the opponent' sweeper. On the other hand, if Gengar doesn't get trapped, the team relying on Pursuit to protect their other Pokemon is screwed. And even if Gengar is forced to use Destiny Bond for whatever reason, the team using Pursuit still loses something important - their Pursuiter, which does important things other than trap Gengar. Scizor checks Xerneas and EKiller and might be a Defogger. TTar sets up Stealth Rock, Sand for Excadrill, and checks other really threatening mons to defensive teams such as Darkrai and Yveltal. Aegislash is a hard Xerneas check and beats some other things like Lucario and Mewtwo X. All of these Pokemon fulfill roles that potentially make them the Pokemon Mega Gengar WANTS to trap instead of the other way around.

So basically, if you want to successfully "beat" Gengar, three things have to happen, none of which involve skill:

1. Gengar is not running a set that beats your chosen Pursuit trapper (this is decided by teambuilder, you pretty much have no way of predicting this)
2. You actually win the 50/50 as to whether Gengar will stay in or switch out (This is not a display of skill because there is no "best play" in a coinflip situation, I can name a BOTW and some SPL matches that were decided by coinflips against Mega Gengar)
3. Your Pursuit trapper is not the Pokemon Gengar is actually trying to kill

tl;dr - You are only deluding yourself if you think Pursuit is a reliable way to stop Mega Gengar.

Disclaimer: I never said Pursuit never works. I am saying it is far from reliable.

Disclaimer 2: I did not talk much about Spiritomb because I do not know what set people use on it. If one of you who does use it can share that info with me, I'd be grateful. I would like to say, however, that "Spiritomb" is not a reason to not ban Gengarite. It is, at least from my understanding, even more specialized/niche than Gastrodon, which is impressive.
I like how you are making a long post about how gar can beat pursuiters and then are like: Oh and I didnt mention the most reliable way to trap gar b/c I didnt bother doing some reaserch.

And tomb is not that nisch. I takes care on Standrad mewtwos and Gengar. Two-S rank mons right there. It also does well vs Deoxys-S and Deoxys-A who are very key components in many HO-teams.

Your argument boils down to: There are existing options in teambuilder to deal with Shadow Tag and therefore it is not sufficiently uncompetitive. This has never been a precedent for any existing clauses. Own Tempo Numel, Haze Murkrow, Insomnia Noctowl, etc. I could list less gimmicky options if that becomes part of your argument but I shouldn't have to.
You can run Swagger on any mon, like kyogre, I dont think Numel can handlle that. Gengarite is restricted to a single pokemon.
I dont think murkrow is a reliable answer to moody user glalie.
Im not sure that Noctowl even beats Darkrai.

It would actually be great if you could actully list pokemon that could suport you argument instead of just: Hope noone care to respond to this bs so I can pretend that its a legit argument.


1. Shadow Tag Gengarite significantly removes choice
2. Shadow Tag's Gengarite's ability to do so is clearly noticeable in the metagame
Okey, pretty much every pokemon does this:
-I would love to go for scarf Outrage to stop this banded Zekrom from destroying my team. Wait he have a Xerneas in the back.
-I would love to not give this Mega Blaziken a free SD but what if he attacks and KOs my Klefki/Aegislash and sweeps me with Xerneas later.
 
Last edited:

jpw234

Catastrophic Event Specialist
fat Melee Mewtwo said:
1. Shadow Tag Gengarite significantly removes choice
2. Shadow Tag's Gengarite's ability to do so is clearly noticeable in the metagame

Okey, pretty much every pokemon does this:
-I would love to go for scarf Outrage to stop this banded Zekrom from destroying my team. Wait he have a Xerneas in the back.
-I would love to not give this Mega Blaziken a free SD but what if he attacks and KOs my Klefki/Aegislash and sweeps me with Xerneas later.
This is an incredibly obtuse thing to say (and shrang said basically the same thing earlier, which is very strange to me).

Your opponent having Xerneas in the back does not "remove the choice" of using Outrage to kill something - it adds risk to that choice. It changes the calculation, but it doesn't remove an option.
Shadow Tag literally removes the option of switching. It removes choice. You cannot switch out of a Shadow Tag mon. There is a massive difference between literally removing a choice and just skewing an opportunity-cost calculation.
 

shrang

General Kenobi
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
This is an incredibly obtuse thing to say (and shrang said basically the same thing earlier, which is very strange to me).

Your opponent having Xerneas in the back does not "remove the choice" of using Outrage to kill something - it adds risk to that choice. It changes the calculation, but it doesn't remove an option.
Shadow Tag literally removes the option of switching. It removes choice. You cannot switch out of a Shadow Tag mon. There is a massive difference between literally removing a choice and just skewing an opportunity-cost calculation.
My problem with that was that it removed some choice. Just for the sake of simplicity, we'll talk about Mega Gengar and leave out Goth and Wobb for now. Two problems, without getting into U-turn or Shed Shell, are:

1) Even if Gengar DOES trap said Pokemon (big if, due to safe switch-ins, and the mega evolution turn itself), unless you're running a Pokemon that's totally helpless against Mega Gengar (which unless it's absolutely critical, you'd avoid using, obviously), it's not like Gengar will get a free kill. You have the "choice" to predict whether he'll use Taunt or Destiny Bond with your Ekiller, for example. Again, this 50/50 is no different than 50/50 switches against Zekrom with your Ground or your Fairy. So yeah, you lost the choice of switching out, but it's not like you lost control of the game immediately.
2) Again, I'm going to reiterate that removing choice from one turn =/= removing control of the game. Pro-banners seem to have this mentality that this one turn will lose you the game. Well, maybe they aren't saying that directly, but with the hyperbole of "Shadow Tag takes away control of the game and gives it to team matchup" comes the implication that this one turn of trapping is profoundly more important than every other turn, as if you win that turn you win the game (otherwise why is this such a big deal) and therefore it's uncompetitive to give someone that much control on that turn. This is quite frankly bs. Yes, you've lost the choice to switch for one turn, but that does not mean you've had an entire game of choice taken away from you.

Also, if we really want to dig into this, care to explain why adding an amount of risk to a choice such that there is only one reasonable choice is substantiatively different from taking away that choice altogether? I did remember Melee use quite an interesting phrase before: Illusion of choice. Is that implying that you actually don't have that choice? Is there anything different from being coerced into the result (Shadow Tag) as compared to being manipulated into making you think that you chose that result (risk)? This isn't a rhetorical question and I'm very open to everyone's interpretations on this, but my opinion is that if any reasonable person would choose the same choice given the risk, that there really isn't anything specifically different apart from the fact that you thought that you made a choice. If it really is an illusion of choice, why the hell do we even care about it anyway?
 
I find it difficult to believe that some good players are actually advocating a ban on Mega Gengar in some form. Two critical points I think Dice's post on the first page is missing:

1) If a Pokemon traps another such that another can sweep, it's well played by the player and not a case for the Pokemon to be banned. In one of the logs cited Dice writes that aim's Mega Gengar traps Skarmory, which opens up the way for Groudon and Arceus to sweep - well good job to aim then. It's no different from things like Rayquazza punching holes so Salamence can sweep, which in no way makes Rayquazza overpowered.
2) "CM Rest Gothitelle can trap a bulky Arceus and 6-0 their team if they lack a Dark-type for the most part" - sure, and GeoXern can Geomancy on choice-locked Spacial Rend and 6-0 the enemy team if they lack a GeoXern counter. Big deal. If a player is concerned about CM Rest Gothitelle, he / she should start running counters.

Skimming the arguments later raised it seems some people object to how Mega Gengar causes 50-50s, e.g. if you have Bronzong in vs. Xerneas but the other guy has a Mega Gengar, do you stay in or switch? Predict wrong and you either lose a critical Pokemon or you lose half your team. Yes, it's not an easy decision. But it's also a difficult decision for the other guy. What if he stays in with Xerneas as you Gyro Ball? What if he goes to Mega Gengar and you go to ScarfOgre? Predict wrong and he either loses a critical Pokemon or half his team too.

I've seen also that some people object to how Mega Gengar might be carrying HP Fire and using it to kill Scizor. I'm guessing that these people play mostly tournament matches, because that's when this issue is at its greatest. The point is that when games are best of one, then an unconventional move that scores a kill can win a game. However averaged over many games and especially when the other player knows about the unconventional move, said unconventional move is unconventional for a reason: it is not as consistent. Dark Pulse on Deoxys-A could be a valid move in tournament matches, while virtually no Deoxys-A will run that on the ladder. Why? Threats such as mixed LO Xerneas actually exists in tournament matches while GeoXern is by far more common on the ladder. Why? This has always been the case in tournament matches and is something that simply has to be dealt with.

Here's my case for not banning Mega Gengar.

1) Mega Gengar is not bulky - it is not easy to switch in.
2) Team preview warns you if your opponent has a Mega Gengar.
3) Gengar has to mega evolve before it can trap something. That gives you one get-out-of-jail-free card.

If you do things like get Grass Arceus trapped after spotting a Gengar in team preview and giving it a turn to mega evolve before getting swept by ScarfOgre, you've been outplayed and deserve to lose. One can see this in the logs given by Dice. Game 2 of Hack vs. MM2, MM2 leads with Gengar. Hack goes to Giratina-O. He then proceeds to switch to Klefki, presumably predicting a switch, but MM2 stays in. Hack's been outpredicted and is therefore put at a serious disadvantage. 'doh. How can you call Mega Gengar ban-worthy after it does something like this? If you use CB Ho-oh's Sleep Talk against Darkrai predicting Dark Void, but it uses Substitute instead, can you really call Darkrai ban-worthy after it NPs up, sleeps something and then KOs something else while you break the sub?

tl; dr: If a day comes when every single team in the top 16 of every major Ubers tournament held in a year is running Mega Gengar (or Shadow Tag, for that matter), then we can consider a Mega Gengar ban. Until then, deal with it.
 
Last edited:

jpw234

Catastrophic Event Specialist
My problem with that was that it removed some choice. Just for the sake of simplicity, we'll talk about Mega Gengar and leave out Goth and Wobb for now. Two problems, without getting into U-turn or Shed Shell, are:

1) Even if Gengar DOES trap said Pokemon (big if, due to safe switch-ins, and the mega evolution turn itself), unless you're running a Pokemon that's totally helpless against Mega Gengar (which unless it's absolutely critical, you'd avoid using, obviously), it's not like Gengar will get a free kill. You have the "choice" to predict whether he'll use Taunt or Destiny Bond with your Ekiller, for example. Again, this 50/50 is no different than 50/50 switches against Zekrom with your Ground or your Fairy. So yeah, you lost the choice of switching out, but it's not like you lost control of the game immediately.
2) Again, I'm going to reiterate that removing choice from one turn =/= removing control of the game. Pro-banners seem to have this mentality that this one turn will lose you the game. Well, maybe they aren't saying that directly, but with the hyperbole of "Shadow Tag takes away control of the game and gives it to team matchup" comes the implication that this one turn of trapping is profoundly more important than every other turn, as if you win that turn you win the game (otherwise why is this such a big deal) and therefore it's uncompetitive to give someone that much control on that turn. This is quite frankly bs. Yes, you've lost the choice to switch for one turn, but that does not mean you've had an entire game of choice taken away from you.

Also, if we really want to dig into this, care to explain why adding an amount of risk to a choice such that there is only one reasonable choice is substantiatively different from taking away that choice altogether? I did remember Melee use quite an interesting phrase before: Illusion of choice. Is that implying that you actually don't have that choice? Is there anything different from being coerced into the result (Shadow Tag) as compared to being manipulated into making you think that you chose that result (risk)? This isn't a rhetorical question and I'm very open to everyone's interpretations on this, but my opinion is that if any reasonable person would choose the same choice given the risk, that there really isn't anything specifically different apart from the fact that you thought that you made a choice. If it really is an illusion of choice, why the hell do we even care about it anyway?
I'm not qualified to respond to your first point because I don't play enough Ubers.
On the second point, I think you're misrepresenting the argument (or at least misunderstanding it). Power creep leads to specialization and many teams only carry one solid check or counter to several threatening Pokemon. In this case control over "a single turn" will often mean removal of a Pokemon that is the linchpin of your strategy. More generally, the ability to selectively remove a single opposing pokemon heavily favors teams on the offensive side of the spectrum, who can tailor the list of Pokemon they are weak to and then remove then with STag (a reason why the "it just trades 1 for 1" line is silly, because Gengar is essentially a suicide bomber for the most important opposing Pokemon). That ability is why STag makes team matchup such a big deal, since if your best answer to X is Gar-weak you're likely to lose. Essentially STag is an easy button for the concept of "overloading a counter".

As for the last paragraph - type immunities do not restrict you to the extent that the illusion of choice applies. You can make predictions still, and running an Outrage into a Fairy type does not constitute a lost Pokemon. More importantly, restricting choice at the level of picking a move cannot be uncompetitive. Few (no?) Pokemon have good matchups against everything which is why switching exists - and why the in-game AI is not a model for good battlers. For example, the move Disable (and Torment, Taunt, etc) literally restricts choice at the level of picking a move but nobody in their right mind would claim it was broken because you can rectify the bad matchup by switching. The ability to switch is the core mechanic of competitive pokemon - it's why U-Turn and Volt Switch are so good (they make switching easier) and why entry hazards are so important (they punish opponent's switches) - and why STag is uncompetitive.
 
Last edited:

shrang

General Kenobi
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
On the second point, I think you're misrepresenting the argument (or at least misunderstanding it). Power creep leads to specialization and many teams only carry one solid check or counter to several threatening Pokemon. In this case control over "a single turn" will often mean removal of a Pokemon that is the linchpin of your strategy. More generally, the ability to selectively remove a single opposing pokemon heavily favors teams on the offensive side of the spectrum, who can tailor the list of Pokemon they are weak to and then remove then with STag (a reason why the "it just trades 1 for 1" line is silly, because Gengar is essentially a suicide bomber for the most important opposing Pokemon). That ability is why STag makes team matchup such a big deal, since if your best answer to X is Gar-weak you're likely to lose. Essentially STag is an easy button for the concept of "overloading a counter".
Personally, if "one turn" is all it takes to dismantle your entire defense for the opponent's strategy so you are guaranteed to lose, you've made a sub-optimal team. Again just because Mega Gengar dismantles say, your Poisonceus and makes it easier for your opponent's GeoXern, and you have nothing else that can remotely stand a chance against stopping GeoXern either setting up or sweeping, then I think it's better for you to go modify your team instead of blaming it all on Gengar. I understand that you can say "well Pokemon isn't a vacuum, your other Pokemon might be down too, it could be late-game and MGengar just removed your last check", but unless Gengar removed or helped to remove EVERY one of them (not an impossible scenario, it could happen, but which I'd question how you made your team to be that Gengar weak), it just says that you got outplayed in every other part of the game too. I'm not saying that you'd have to carry multiple checks to every Pokemon because it's impossible, but I am saying just because Mega Gengar removed your choice in that one turn does not mean the rest of the choices you make in the game suddenly become moot. You can blame Shadow Tag for that one turn, but you sure as hell cannot blame it for the whole game.

As for the last paragraph - type immunities do not restrict you to the extent that the illusion of choice applies. You can make predictions still, and running an Outrage into a Fairy type does not constitute a lost Pokemon. More importantly, restricting choice at the level of picking a move cannot be uncompetitive. Few (no?) Pokemon have good matchups against everything which is why switching exists - and why the in-game AI is not a model for good battlers. For example, the move Disable (and Torment, Taunt, etc) literally restricts choice at the level of picking a move but nobody in their right mind would claim it was broken because you can rectify the bad matchup by switching. The ability to switch is the core mechanic of competitive pokemon - it's why U-Turn and Volt Switch are so good (they make switching easier) and why entry hazards are so important (they punish opponent's switches) - and why STag is uncompetitive.
Can you read that last paragraph before you comment on it? I'm questioning whether illusion of choice is even a thing here. Again, does it make a difference that you were coerced into a situation or you were manipulated into thinking you made the choice which led to that situation? That Outrage example is a bit extreme, but actually, if you do use Outrage to kill the Zekrom in Kebabe's situation when Xerneas, you HAVE lost a Pokemon (or possibly the game). There's really no choice involved in that situation. You'd either click something and switch and watch Zekrom kill something else, or do you use Outrage and watch Xerneas get a free switch? You might think you're making a choice based on risk here, but the result is the same. Again, I'm posing the question to rest of the community even though it might be something that is just too deep for everyone to give a proper answer to. Is there really a choice when you are manipulated into it by risk, and how is that different from being coerced into it outright?
 
Last edited:
M Gengar is uncompetitive, but it's nothing like the Moody clause or the Swagger clause. Those clauses remove a mechanic which turns the entire game to RNG. There is literally, absolutely no counterplay to it. M Gengar has counterplay and it has higher opportunity cost. You lose your mega slot, it can be trapped by pursuit, it can't even trap anyone on your first turn in, and it's pretty weak against hyper-offense.

Stall, the playstyle which M Gengar is supposed to threaten most, is doing fine regardless of its presence.

Finally, Ubers is supposed to be a place where you can use all the most powerful pokemon. Banning a pokemon from Ubers just because some people are a little annoyed that they can't switch in walls for free would violate the spirit of Ubers. The only things that are banned from Ubers are the things that devalue the game into RNG.
 
"Absolutely no counterplay to it" is probably going too far. Take a look at this replay: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uberssuspecttest-147030896. I<3Cynthia makes plays that clearly indicate that he / she knows what he's doing, and is basing his gameplan on trapping Blissey (which evidently doesn't have Shed Shell / Flamethrower, since it has SR) before sweeping with GeoXern, and yet ... it doesn't happen.

In my view, I'd say that he's been outplayed, just as if the gameplan actually did come to fruition then Hubet would've been the one that was outplayed.
 
I find it difficult to believe that some good players are actually advocating a ban on Mega Gengar in some form. Two critical points I think Dice's post on the first page is missing:

1) If a Pokemon traps another such that another can sweep, it's well played by the player and not a case for the Pokemon to be banned. In one of the logs cited Dice writes that aim's Mega Gengar traps Skarmory, which opens up the way for Groudon and Arceus to sweep - well good job to aim then. It's no different from things like Rayquazza punching holes so Salamence can sweep, which in no way makes Rayquazza overpowered.
2) "CM Rest Gothitelle can trap a bulky Arceus and 6-0 their team if they lack a Dark-type for the most part" - sure, and GeoXern can Geomancy on choice-locked Spacial Rend and 6-0 the enemy team if they lack a GeoXern counter. Big deal. If a player is concerned about CM Rest Gothitelle, he / she should start running counters.

Skimming the arguments later raised it seems some people object to how Mega Gengar causes 50-50s, e.g. if you have Bronzong in vs. Xerneas but the other guy has a Mega Gengar, do you stay in or switch? Predict wrong and you either lose a critical Pokemon or you lose half your team. Yes, it's not an easy decision. But it's also a difficult decision for the other guy. What if he stays in with Xerneas as you Gyro Ball? What if he goes to Mega Gengar and you go to ScarfOgre? Predict wrong and he either loses a critical Pokemon or half his team too.

I've seen also that some people object to how Mega Gengar might be carrying HP Fire and using it to kill Scizor. I'm guessing that these people play mostly tournament matches, because that's when this issue is at its greatest. The point is that when games are best of one, then an unconventional move that scores a kill can win a game. However averaged over many games and especially when the other player knows about the unconventional move, said unconventional move is unconventional for a reason: it is not as consistent. Dark Pulse on Deoxys-A could be a valid move in tournament matches, while virtually no Deoxys-A will run that on the ladder. Why? Threats such as mixed LO Xerneas actually exists in tournament matches while GeoXern is by far more common on the ladder. Why? This has always been the case in tournament matches and is something that simply has to be dealt with.

Here's my case for not banning Mega Gengar.

1) Mega Gengar is not bulky - it is not easy to switch in.
2) Team preview warns you if your opponent has a Mega Gengar.
3) Gengar has to mega evolve before it can trap something. That gives you one get-out-of-jail-free card.

If you do things like get Grass Arceus trapped after spotting a Gengar in team preview and giving it a turn to mega evolve before getting swept by ScarfOgre, you've been outplayed and deserve to lose. One can see this in the logs given by Dice. Game 2 of Hack vs. MM2, MM2 leads with Gengar. Hack goes to Giratina-O. He then proceeds to switch to Klefki, presumably predicting a switch, but MM2 stays in. Hack's been outpredicted and is therefore put at a serious disadvantage. 'doh. How can you call Mega Gengar ban-worthy after it does something like this? If you use CB Ho-oh's Sleep Talk against Darkrai predicting Dark Void, but it uses Substitute instead, can you really call Darkrai ban-worthy after it NPs up, sleeps something and then KOs something else while you break the sub?

tl; dr: If a day comes when every single team in the top 16 of every major Ubers tournament held in a year is running Mega Gengar (or Shadow Tag, for that matter), then we can consider a Mega Gengar ban. Until then, deal with it.
Your examples aren't addressing the issue here. If a player needs a Groudon to prevent a Salamence from sweeping, he is perfectly free to switch something else into Rayquaza to keep the Groudon healthy. He has choice in the matter. With Gengar/Gothitelle, once it enters the wall is pretty much dead (or reduced to a 50/50, etc.)

Sure, GeoXern can come in on a choice-locked dragon move, but even after a geomancy it still can't beat things like Aegislash. A +4/+4 Gothitelle with a sub is pretty much guaranteed to take out at least two opposing pokemon, or several more against a stall team.

Yes, it's pretty difficult to switch Gengar in, but it can usually take at least one non-SE hit, and it can always come in for a revenge kill. In the example you gave with the Bronzong and Xerneas, the Xerneas user's choice is pretty simple (depending on what the rest of his team is): either sacrifice something that's at low health (and bring in Gengar afterwards to take out Bronzong, setting up a Xerneas sweep), or send in something that can take a gyro ball and a water spout (e.g. Palkia), leaving the Gengar waiting to take out Bronzong whenever it shows itself again.
 
Alright so I've now nearly got reqs on the suspect ladder, but am now taking a break because it's becoming quite boring. I've played about 45 games now using Edgar's sample team with a couple of variations, and have obviously not had huge issues with Gengar at all (except for when it leads against Scolipede, but that's pretty easy to predict). Arceus-Ghost can't be trapped, ResTalk Kyogre doesn't give a damn, it can't kill Landorus before Landorus kills it or U-Turns out on a predicted Destiny Bond, Skymin outspeeds and flinches, and while it can Destiny Bond Mawile, this has not yet happened. The most annoying aspect of Mega Gengar to this team is that it absorbs Toxic Spikes lol. I'll be constructing my view on the matter in three points: personal experience, my stance on Ubers banning things, and the theory behind Shadow Tag.

Anyway, I very much doubt that I'll be bringing anything new to the discussion that hasn't probably already been said, but speaking from personal experience (just on the ladder, I have never attempted Ubers at a higher level of play) I find it to be an excellent Pokemon that one must watch out for, but honestly to no greater extent than the other big Uber titans. The fact that Shadow Tag isn't instantaneous but requires a turn to obtain has played a large role in my opinion of this, as it's not hard to double switch into a favourable matchup and gain momentum against the opponent. Granted I have been using a team that is relatively unphased by Mega Gengar, but I've seen replays of teams with a worse matchup and still prevail through smart play. And honestly, why WOULD you use a team weak to Mega Gengar at the moment? Concerns of "blabla makes X unviable" don't really concern me when regarding Ubers (less so in different tiers), because this IS the realm of broken Pokemon. It's nice that beforehand all of these behemoths seemed to nicely balance eachother out, but I see Ubers as the place where I can choose to use anything, where I'm free to use extremely powerful Pokemon that make it easier for me to win. You simply adapt, and don't use the things that are weak to the strongest threat in the metagame. If you desperately need a Pokemon that is helpless against Mega Gengar, you run Shed Shell on it (most of them have reliable recovery anyway).

My personal stance on things being banned from Ubers is that the strategy/item/Pokemon/whatever needs to be extremely overpowered, have almost no opportunity cost in selecting that thing over something else, or be entirely luck based. Mega Gengar doesn't really fit into any of these categories for me, as plenty of teams are completely viable despite not using Mega Gengar, many teams don't crumble to Mega Gengar alone (yes I'm aware that people want it banned under a supportive characteristic, not an offensive one, which is the case with most things that Smogon suspects nowadays) but just because Mega Gengar can remove a counter to one of its teammates doesn't mean that it will.

I, like many other people, believe that the main problem lies in the concept of Shadow Tag itself. Not allowing your opponent to switch out means that if your Pokemon has an advantage over the trapped one, your opponent cannot even attempt to outplay you. Once you're trapped, that's it, and your opponent has 100% of the advantage and can do whatever the hell he wants. I'd be more comfortable seeing this "claused" than seeing Gengarite banned. Yes I'm aware that it's just semantics, but if I'm honest I don't particularly care. Take from my opinion what you will, I have far less experience than top Ubers players, and know that my opinion may be biased because I don't avidly concern myself with the tier, and only have my own experience to base my eventual decision off, but I wanted to participate in this Suspect test because as said in the OP, it's pretty much the biggest one in Ubers history and because i can now get TC alumn
 
Last edited:

jpw234

Catastrophic Event Specialist
So, I'm concerned that this thread isn't going anywhere because the two sides are arguing across each other, and I'm additionally concerned that this is because we're suspecting Gengarite rather than Shadow Tag, which is putting the focus on the Pokemon rather than what is clearly the actual concern (and Hack He Must correctly pointed this out earlier on). Melee Mewtwo and Dice have made, to me, several convincing argument concerning the uncompetitiveness of the ability Shadow Tag. Everything I'm hearing in response is essentially stating in some roundabout terms, "MGar has flaws X, Y, and Z that make it difficult for a user of MGar to maneuver the battle in such a way that Shadow Tag has a large effect on the outcome". For example, I've heard that MGar lacks coverage to take out a large set of Pokemon, that it's vulnerable to Pursuit trapping, that it doesn't guarantee a kill (Taunt/Destiny Bond is a 50/50), and that it can be played around somewhat because it requires a turn to Mega-Evolve.
The issue is that even if all of these arguments are true, none of them actually address what is ostensibly the real issue here, which is the uncompetitiveness of Shadow Tag. For example, we don't debate the uncompetitiveness of Moody by talking about the flaws of Bidoof, rather, we recognize that the ability itself is uncompetitive independent of its abusers. The move Swagger is uncompetitive independent of its abusers. The ability Shadow Tag is uncompetitive because it takes switching away from players which is the core of competitive Pokemon. Until I hear an argument about why STag is not an uncompetitive ability, the best choice seems to be to ban STag. So, can an anti ban user make (or clarify) an argument about the competitiveness of the ability STag?
 

jpw234

Catastrophic Event Specialist
The issue is that as far as I can tell, Hugendugen has indicated that the Gengarite suspect is a prerequisite to any STag suspect, which doesn't make sense as they're totally different issues.

This is also a good point at which to clarify that a ban on Gengarite and a ban on Shadow Tag are completely different things. While they have the same impact on Mega-Gengar, a Gengarite ban indicates a decision that MGar is a broken pokemon (which does not necessarily indicate anything about STag), while a ban on STag indicates a decision that STag is an uncompetitive game element. The difference between a ban based on brokenness and uncompetitiveness is particularly large.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top