Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

[DoABarrelRoll]

I think Hydreigon should rise to B-. He is an excellent wallbreaker in this metagame, despite its not-so-high speed stat. He has a wide movepool and great attacking stats. Despite him gaining a quad-weakness to Fairy, do remember Steel-types lost their resistances to Dark. He is also outclassed a bit by Kyurem-B and Mega Garchomp thanks to their much higher attacking stats and bulk. However, he can do the following things which allow it in my eyes to be on par with Pokemon such as Victini and Weavile:

- usually outspeeds Mega Zard X since most of them run Adamant and OHKO with Draco Meteor
- can OHKO Mega Mawile with Fire Blast (252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Mawile: 317-374 (104.2 - 123%) -- guaranteed OHKO)
- beats Thundurus/Landorus 1-on-1 since it can live a LO Hidden Power Ice
- resists Sucker Punch and can act as an effective Bisharp check thanks to its decent bulk
- easily threatens Tyranitar with Superpower
- eliminates Excadrill with Fire Blast
- unlike Lati@s, it has no problems disposing of Ferrothorn and some Mandibuzz
- OHKOes Heatran with Earthquake, another problem for the two Latis
- is a great switch-in to Rotom-W
- outspeeds Kyurem-B and Mamoswine and can live an Ice Shard from the latter
- threatens Skarmory, Mega Heracross, Amoonguss, Quagsire, Zapdos, Mew, Mega Manectric and Slowbro
- can 2HKO Landorus-T, Chansey and most Fairy-types on the switch
- and last, but not least, has access to U-turn to scout for Fairies and switch to the appropriate counter, such as Heatran.

Disagree with Keldeo for S, it relies too much on Choice Specs, has some annoying counters in the form of Mega Venusaur, Amoonguss and Latias which it struggles to get past and can't do that much against bird spam and hyperoffense. Keldeo is a bitch to handle if it's used in rain teams, though. Keep it A+

 

[Gloating]

vyomov those are checks lol things that force it out before giving it a chance to attack see the difference? learn to read please.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

I'd like to nominate Doublade for D Rank. Maybe a little higher after I've tested him more, but I think a humble D Rank should be good for now. Long story short, I've seen a lot of people forgoing Earthquake on Terrakion / Mega Heracross / Mega Pinsir, Fire Punch on Mega Medicham, Shadow Ball on Mega Gardevoir, etc. now that they don't have to worry about Aegislash anymore. Once they do drop those coverage moves, Doublade swoops in and shuts them down. With the Eviolite and a specially defensive spread, Doublade has effective 59 / 234 / 98 defenses, which is excellent when combined with a solid Steel / Ghost typing. Even with no investment, Doublade generally has more than enough physical bulk to handle the physical wallbreakers that it needs to beat, and it has just enough special bulk to put a stop to non-Shadow Ball Mega Gardevoir and the Lati twins. Base 110 Atk is pretty cool for a defensive Pokemon, giving it pretty solid power behind it's powerful STAB Gyro Ball, not to mention that it can use Shadow Sneak to pick off opponents that barely survive its attacks before they can retaliate. Of course, it does have its fair share of problems. It has no recovery outside of Rest (not even Leftovers) which often forces it to rely on Heal Bell support to wake it up early, Sleep Talk to keep from being useless for 2 turns, or Wish support to keep it healthy. Its special bulk is also somewhat unimpressive even with the Eviolite and maximum investment; while it's a great answer to a couple of things like Mega Gardevoir and Latios/Latias, it can't hope to take hits from special attackers like Keldeo very easily (although Thundurus's Life Orb Thunderbolt usually fails to 2HKO 252/252+ Doublade, which is cool). It also seems to want just a little more power sometimes since outside of Gyro Ball against fast opponents, none of its moves have all that high of base power (STAB Iron Head fails to 2HKO Def Clefable without significant Atk investment). However, it does still have a niche on defensive teams as an catch-all answer to a lot of key wallbreakers that have dropped their Aegislash coverage for other moves and would normally be a real problem for stall teams. It's a pretty specific niche, but Doublade does do its job pretty well, so I think D Rank would be fair.

If we still need to wait a little longer for new post-Aegislash nominations, then just keep this post in mind for later down the road.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

Starmie should stay C+ (since I saw some posts regarding its eventual rise). It's main problems are the Defog buff, Excadrill and Greninja (not Aegislash since the latter dislikes Analytic Hydro Pump). It's pokemon such as the Lati twins, which have higher Special Attack, good bulk (at least on the special side) and better resistances and Zapdos with its much higher bulk and access to Heat Wave to OHKO Ferrothorn. Also, Excadrill is a better offensive spinner because it has much higher offensive presence, be it either with Sand Rush or Mold Breaker (especially with Sand Rush since it can outspeed anything bar prio users). Greninja outclasses Starmie as a speedy special attacker despite not having Rapid Spin, as it gets STAB on all of its attacks, has slightly higher Special Attack and better Speed, which allows it to troll Tornadus-T, Alakazam and the rare ScarfTar.

 

[vyomov]

vyomov those are checks lol things that force it out before giving it a chance to attack see the difference? learn to read please.

You should then make it clear what counters and what you define as forcing it out - because you used the phrasing "force out or counter" for the whole list.
Also relying on these mons to "force Keldeo out" means you need another check to Keldeo to switch into it, otherwise nothing on your team can actually switch into Keldeo(you can't rely on say, Greninja, to be your primary check to Keldeo).

 

[AsynchronousIO]

Starmie should stay C+ (since I saw some posts regarding its eventual rise). It's main problems are the Defog buff, Excadrill and Greninja (not Aegislash since the latter dislikes Analytic Hydro Pump). It's pokemon such as the Lati twins, which have higher Special Attack, good bulk (at least on the special side) and better resistances and Zapdos with its much higher bulk and access to Heat Wave to OHKO Ferrothorn. Also, Excadrill is a better offensive spinner because it has much higher offensive presence, be it either with Sand Rush or Mold Breaker (especially with Sand Rush since it can outspeed anything bar prio users). Greninja outclasses Starmie as a speedy special attacker despite not having Rapid Spin, as it gets STAB on all of its attacks, has slightly higher Special Attack and better Speed, which allows it to troll Tornadus-T, Alakazam and the rare ScarfTar.

Aegislash never really had a problem with Analytic Hydro Pump. Starmie would've needed to catch Aegislash on the switch to use that, twice, and that's a risky proposition because Hydro Pump misses.

Defog isn't always the best option because it removes your hazards too and there aren't too many good defoggers on offensive teams. Excadrill depends on sand support or Scarf to spin because it has rather low speed. Starmie also has better coverage even if it has a little less power, and a sexy speed tier that allows him to beat Gengar. I'll give that Starmie is mostly outclassed by Greninja, but Greninja can't spin, and that's what's important.

I dunno how much better Starmie got, but I think it got significantly better with the Aegislash ban, because Starmie can now beat the next best spinblockers, such as Gengar, Gourgeist-S, and Jellicent.

 

[Numera]

Starmie should stay C+ (since I saw some posts regarding its eventual rise). It's main problems are the Defog buff, Excadrill and Greninja (not Aegislash since the latter dislikes Analytic Hydro Pump). It's pokemon such as the Lati twins, which have higher Special Attack, good bulk (at least on the special side) and better resistances and Zapdos with its much higher bulk and access to Heat Wave to OHKO Ferrothorn. Also, Excadrill is a better offensive spinner because it has much higher offensive presence, be it either with Sand Rush or Mold Breaker (especially with Sand Rush since it can outspeed anything bar prio users). Greninja outclasses Starmie as a speedy special attacker despite not having Rapid Spin, as it gets STAB on all of its attacks, has slightly higher Special Attack and better Speed, which allows it to troll Tornadus-T, Alakazam and the rare ScarfTar.

Look it's all well and nice saying what partially eclipses Starmie, but remember that Pokemon in C rank are COMPLETELY eclipsed by higher ranked Pokemon. The Latis sure do a better job at hazard clearing but Starmie has it's uses over them (such as, y'know, NOT REMOVING YOUR OWN HAZARDS), as well as Excadrill. For starters, I've already said that Starmie, unlike all of those things you listed, is able to check every single rock setter. This is a very nice advantage Starmie has over all of the other hazard cleaners which gives it a reason to be used over them immediately. 2nd of all, Starmie has Natural Cure, allowing it to absorb status effectively, again, unlike all the other cleaners of hazards. Having a status absorber on offensive teams is always neat. As an offensive spinner, it really does have reasons to be used over Excadrill for all the reasons I stated above, as well as the fact it doesn't need Ttar support or a scarf to be fast right off the get go. And it you are going to say "pursuit", Starmie has access to Reflect Type, which is yet another thing preventing it from being completely outclassed from everything so far listed. I personally think B is a nice place for Starmie to say "Look, the other offensive spinner in the tier kind of outclasses me, but I have a lot of useful things that make me not 100% outclassed like the Pokemon in C rank.".

Btw, ScarfTar isn't exactly rare.

 

[alexwolf]

I'm sorry but saying that those Landorus sets don't need any support is just 100% wrong. All of these sets need considerably more support than Keldeo to actually work. CM Landorus might be a great wallbreaker but if you're using that, you should really use a Pursuiter, as otherwise against offensive teams that Lando is not very good. They are the kind of team that will run a Lati most often and they will both switch into Lando really easily, Defogging off your Rocks and just hitting stuff hard. SR + Knock Lando is just a bad set. I'm assuming you're dropping Focus Blast because I can't see Lando dropping either Earth Power or Psychic, and dropping Focus Blast leaves you open to half the Defoggers in the tier, in particular Skarmory, Stall's #1 Defogger. Stall is the match up you want your rocks against the most because it's very hard to break without it. If your rocker can pressure their defogger, you will have a much easier time beating them. Running Knock Off on that set would mean you'd need to get some seriously powerful stall killer to beat those teams, and without it, you'll probably need a Pursuiter to help it against Offense, at least if you're running it on an offense of your own. RP Lando not needing any support is just silly. There is a ton of mons you can't cover with that coverage, meaning that you will be forced into running something on your team to give it a chance at sweeping. RP Lando is something your team should be supporting in order for it to be effective because otherwise it's gonna do jackshit in 80% of the games you're gonna play. That doesn't change that Landorus is one of the best Pokemon in the tier and fully deserving of S rank.

You say that Keldeo needs support in order to do work, but I'm not exactly sure what support it needs. It can threaten 99% of the metagame with its basic Specs set which absolutely no playstyle wants to face. Most of its "hard counters" are semi-common mons exclusively seen on Stall (like Slowbro) which is quite frankly not saying much. Keldeo is both exceptionally threatening and helpful to its team thanks to its great typing and stats, which combined makes it an S-rank.

If you want to cover your basis against stall, running CM Lando without a Pursuit users is a very legitimate option. Yeah, you have to cover stuff such as Latios and Latias, but this is just for offense, as CM Landorus needs little to no support to do its main job, which is wallbreaking. You say that SR + Knock Off Landorus is a bad set but you don't explain why. Psychic is not that necessary to begin with, as Knock Off still cripples badly some of Psychic's targets (offensive Talonflame, Landorus, Gengar, Thundurus). Yeah Psychic is nice to have a reliable move against Rotom-W and Breloom, while also dealing good damage to Dragonite, Landorus-T, and Gyarados, but Rotom-W and Breloom are 2HKOed anyway (Rotom-W by Focus Blast and Breloom by Earth Power), Dragonite and Gyarados are SR weak and usually lack recovery, and Lando-T is admittedly a problem. However, SR + Knock Off beats most Rapid Spin and Defog users while still having respectable offensive presence, so i don't see why it's a bad or even a mediocre SR setter. If you want to have Psychic > Knock Off and use Tyranitar / Mega Scizor / Bisharp to beat Lati@s be my guest, but Landorus is perfectly able to beat those two on its own. And you are right about Rock Polish Landorus, my bad on this one, but it's a late-game sweeper and all late-game sweepers need some kind of support in general.

I already explained what i mean by saying that Keldeo needs a lot of support. Keldeo has enough hard checks in the top rankings (Mega Venusaur, Latios, Latias) and hard counters on stall / defensive teams (Slowbro, Amoonguss, SpD Gyarados), to either need teammates that check those Pokemon for a long time, or be paired with a Pursuit user to deal with them.

Finally, something that i forgot to mention is that Keldeo's best set is choice locked, something that obviously comes with a huge drawback. No other Pokemon with a Choiceed set as its best set is currently in the S rank tier, so this is also a limitation that can't be ignored.

 

[Jukain]

jirachee already addressed most of what i was going to say, but uhh...since when was slowbro a good keldeo answer? it even needs 24 evs to always avoid the hydro 2hko after rocks, and most any other prior damage will put it in 2hko range, such as if keldeo is spamming scald (normal) and slowbro gets burnt it's now 2hkoed regardless. as an answer it's mediocre at best.

i agree with agent gibbs about doublade for d rank. it's actually kinda nice. i ran a toxic 3 atks set with mola support and full hp + some atk evs + a lot of spdef which is what i personally found to be the most effective set. it handles a bunch of different things effectively, like cham hera gard pinsir terrak azu mttar latis noepkyub. there are some definite cons, as it really wishes it had more power and a pure sd set with atk evs was not effective from my experience. it's also rather vulnerable to special attacks. however, by virtue of its sexy ghost steel typing and enough power to get by the things it's supposed to answer, doublade can be effective.

bronzong is another thing that ought to be added (unless you consider post-aegi mons irrelevant), at least in d rank. i ran a spdef sr - gyro - toxic - eq set and it worked pretty well. works best paired with mola like doublade, but i actually used it as a glue for one of my more offensive teams for some insurance vs various threats. bronzong beats both the improved gard and sand exca, among other threats it can check/counter like latis, kyub, mamo, lando, thund, chomper, greninja, non-fire punch ttar mega, and aerodactyl mega (kinda annoying in this meta, thnx tesung <3). all of these are highly relevant offensive threats that threaten more offensive teams which zong can beat, and i haven't even mentioned different defensive threats where zong can come in and cripple with toxic. eq lures tran and hits mawile decently, oh and zong takes shit from zone which is pretty neat bc it's gained a bit of notoriety espec combined with things like gard mega, pinsir mega, and gyara mega in this meta (not implying zong is used to answer all 3). prolly c- for now, zong is better than d rank at the least imo.

 

[0besity]

Also MMawile has like 2 sets. SD Sweeper and SubPunch with little variations on each. Just sayin.

Mawile's two sets allow it to check pokemon which previously checked them. For example, Heatran completely walls MMawile's SD Sweeper set whilst Mawile can OHKO Heatran with Focus Punch on the SubPunch set. Mawile needs to be scouted and prepared for cautiously before sending in the appropriate check/counter. Hippowdon can tank any hit from MegaZard X at +1 and then status it with Toxic, phase it out or even outright KO it if Charizard has received prior damage. Wheras, if it's the bulky WoW set, Hippowdon can out-stall it with Slack Off and Toxic.

Isn't as easy to slap on teams: Care to explain why? No? Okay then.

Mega Charizard X faces far more competition for its role than any other S ranked mon. Many other Pokemon are suitable for the role as a bulky physical sweeper. Mega Gyarados and Mega Tyranitar are prime examples; whereas, if you required a Pokemon to cripple opposing sweepers, you would opt for Thundurus almost instantly. Mega Charizard X also faces competition for a mega slot.

 

[Rosen]

Bronzong def needs to be ranked, totally shuts down Sand Rush Exca and Mega Gard, two really threatening pokes atm

Also Jukain while Toxic is tempting to put on Zongers, Protect really is the better option here, other mons can run toxic much better (like Quag) cuz Zong doesn't have instant recovery to patch up the hit you're gonna take when using Toxic. Set I use is 248 HP / 4 Atk / 88 Def / 168 SDef, Sassy nature 0 speed IVs ofc with SR - EQ - Gyro - Protect, if you're interested

Yeah Zong has a niche role but it's a pretty fucken stout niche, I'd say start it out in C- and see where it goes from there (don't put it in the same tier as Mobama pls)

 

[Anduril]

Mega Charizard X faces far more competition for its role than any other S ranked mon. Many other Pokemon are suitable for the role as a bulky physical sweeper. Mega Gyarados and Mega Tyranitar are prime examples; whereas, if you required a Pokemon to cripple opposing sweepers, you would opt for Thundurus almost instantly. Mega Charizard X also faces competition for a mega slot.

CharX has a far better speed tier than both of them, is immune to burn, and is extremely hard to revenge after a DD. Just because it has competition for a role doesn't mean it's extremely dangerous with a DD up. And don't all mons face competition?
Edit: Thank you Dygenguar for stating it more eloquently than me

 

[Sanger Zonvolt]

Mawile's two sets allow it to check pokemon which previously checked them. For example, Heatran completely walls MMawile's SD Sweeper set whilst Mawile can OHKO Heatran with Focus Punch on the SubPunch set. Mawile needs to be scouted and prepared for cautiously before sending in the appropriate check/counter. Hippowdon can tank any hit from MegaZard X at +1 and then status it with Toxic, phase it out or even outright KO it if Charizard has received prior damage. Wheras, if it's the bulky WoW set, Hippowdon can out-stall it with Slack Off and Toxic.

Mega Charizard X faces far more competition for its role than any other S ranked mon. Many other Pokemon are suitable for the role as a bulky physical sweeper. Mega Gyarados and Mega Tyranitar are prime examples; whereas, if you required a Pokemon to cripple opposing sweepers, you would opt for Thundurus almost instantly. Mega Charizard X also faces competition for a mega slot.

Mega Charizard X burns enemies and Thundurus causes paralysis. I don't see how you can say that Thundurus can replace Mega Charizard X in that regard since the effects and repercussions of their statuses are completely different. Also, neither Mega Gyarados nor Mega Tyranitar have the versatility that Mega Charizard X has. Yes, all three can be used as Bulky DD sweepers, but Mega Charizard X can also be used as a faster DD sweeper by moving its EVS to speed instead of and it can also be used in Stall teams as a Will-o-Wisper. So, if it does Mega Gyarados's job and Mega Tyranitar's job just as well as them and can still pull off other sets for other play styles, it only makes sense to rank it higher than them. Lastly, Mega Charizard X may face competition for a mega slot, but it brings a lot to the table with very few drawbacks, so it's a much safer option than some of the other options like Mega Heracross and Mega Gardevoir.

 

[Karxrida]

Are we seriously discussing Zard X dropping? That thing is one of the most versatile, threatening, hard to stop, badass, sexy, and black Pokemon in existence.

Joking aside, WTF is wrong with you people? While it needs support, it pulls its weight IMMENSELY to the point that the support is more than worth it, has one of the best STAB combos in the game, isn't weak to any priority, can get past its checks depending on its moves (Outrage beats Quagsire for example), and IS A SWEEPER IMMUNE TO BURNS.

#ZardXForPresident

 

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

I think Hydreigon should rise to B-. He is an excellent wallbreaker in this metagame, despite its not-so-high speed stat. He has a wide movepool and great attacking stats. Despite him gaining a quad-weakness to Fairy, do remember Steel-types lost their resistances to Dark. He is also outclassed a bit by Kyurem-B and Mega Garchomp thanks to their much higher attacking stats and bulk. However, he can do the following things which allow it in my eyes to be on par with Pokemon such as Victini and Weavile:

- usually outspeeds Mega Zard X since most of them run Adamant and OHKO with Draco Meteor
- can OHKO Mega Mawile with Fire Blast (252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Mawile: 317-374 (104.2 - 123%) -- guaranteed OHKO)
- beats Thundurus/Landorus 1-on-1 since it can live a LO Hidden Power Ice
- resists Sucker Punch and can act as an effective Bisharp check thanks to its decent bulk
- easily threatens Tyranitar with Superpower
- eliminates Excadrill with Fire Blast
- unlike Lati@s, it has no problems disposing of Ferrothorn and some Mandibuzz
- OHKOes Heatran with Earthquake, another problem for the two Latis
- is a great switch-in to Rotom-W
- outspeeds Kyurem-B and Mamoswine and can live an Ice Shard from the latter
- threatens Skarmory, Mega Heracross, Amoonguss, Quagsire, Zapdos, Mew, Mega Manectric and Slowbro
- can 2HKO Landorus-T, Chansey and most Fairy-types on the switch
- and last, but not least, has access to U-turn to scout for Fairies and switch to the appropriate counter, such as Heatran.

Disagree with Keldeo for S, it relies too much on Choice Specs, has some annoying counters in the form of Mega Venusaur, Amoonguss and Latias which it struggles to get past and can't do that much against bird spam and hyperoffense. Keldeo is a bitch to handle if it's used in rain teams, though. Keep it A+

I think it is better than Conkeldurr, and for arbitrage, Conk should fall or Hydreigon should rise. Still, it has little "staying power" if it has to use Draco Meteor and Superpower, since it loses its defensive and offensive capabilities, and Fire Blast is a little unreliable. Still, a Sucker Punch resist, in addition to some of its useful resistances, and some useful speed (unlike Conkeldurr) makes it a nice check for most offensive Pokemon (except Azumarill) below 70 base speed (or, if need to, it can even speed creep Heracross or Excadrill, which should be wary of Mold Breaker Earthquake) and some walls too.

Still, if you want to outrun Adamant Mega Zard X, you have to sacrifice some bulky, which reduces its allure as bulky pivot, since it now has merely Keldeo level bulk (actually a little less due to a negative defensive nature if it opts for Superpower), without outspeeding a few more threats above the 100 tier.

 

[Oddish is the best]

Shouldn't Meloetta have a rank? Didn't it get above 3.41% usage in the 1830 stats? I don't know where it would go but it seems weird it doesn't have a rank.

 

[Karxrida]

Shouldn't Meloetta have a rank? Didn't it get above 3.41% usage in the 1830 stats? I don't know where it would go but it seems weird it doesn't have a rank.

It needs to hold that position for 3 months before it officially becomes OU (I think?). I do agree that it needs a rank since I've heard good things about it but haven't seen it in action. C sounds good based off of pure theorymon (aka me being lazy and ranking it without doing any research).

 

[Super Mario Bro]

Shouldn't Meloetta have a rank? Didn't it get above 3.41% usage in the 1830 stats? I don't know where it would go but it seems weird it doesn't have a rank.

I'm guessing that the main reason it had high usage is that it was a good Aegislash counter. It will probably sink in next month's stats.

 

[MikeDawg]

Mega Charizard X burns enemies and Thundurus causes paralysis. I don't see how you can say that Thundurus can replace Mega Charizard X in that regard since the effects and repercussions of their statuses are completely different. Also, neither Mega Gyarados nor Mega Tyranitar have the versatility that Mega Charizard X has. Yes, all three can be used as Bulky DD sweepers, but Mega Charizard X can also be used as a faster DD sweeper by moving its EVS to speed instead of and it can also be used in Stall teams as a Will-o-Wisper. So, if it does Mega Gyarados's job and Mega Tyranitar's job just as well as them and can still pull off other sets for other play styles, it only makes sense to rank it higher than them. Lastly, Mega Charizard X may face competition for a mega slot, but it brings a lot to the table with very few drawbacks, so it's a much safer option than some of the other options like Mega Heracross and Mega Gardevoir.

How exactly are you going to stop a +1 mega gyarados with a 0 priority burn? Just wondering.

Char has plenty of uses; stopping set-up sweepers is not one of them.

 

[Sucker Lunch]

Rotom-Wash

Now your team is 16% less shitty.
You figure out the remaining 84%

I believe that Rotom-Wash should be moved to A+ Rank due to its utility as a pivot, and the fact that it supports a significant portion of the current metagame. Rotom-W is the gold standard when it comes to providing some bulk for offensive teams that need something to tank a hit, while also retaining momentum as well. Yes, Rotom-W will not heal your team, and he’s not a wall that will last forever, but the machine is one hell of a Band-Aid. Rotom is an outstanding asset for patching up defense on nearly every style of offensive play. Best of all, he can go physical or special depending on what your team needs.

In addition, Rotom-W can toss out crippling burns, and is pretty impressive when it comes to dealing a little damage. All in all, I think that Rotom-W is being undervalued in the meta right now. Especially if the viability thread is supposed to help new players. I guarantee that every newbie’s team will be better if they slap a Rotom-Wash on it. It’s that freaking good. Wash checks many things, has a great typing with only one rare weakness, provides a reliable switch-in, and is really easy to teambuild with.

Needs to be bumped up IMO

 

[skies]

Unranked ----> D​

Bronzong fulfills a niche in OU as being a very reliable Trick Room setter. It also has access to a variety of support moves from Dual Screens, to Stealth Rock, to Explosion. It has very high Defense and a cool typing. However, Bronzong really doesn't shine. It has a weakness to the common Knock Off, and Shadow Ball of all things. It can't dish out any damage, it lacks recovery, and it's outclassed by practically everything. Despite this, it does have the tiniest niche of being able to set Trick Room reliably with Stealth Rock, and I do think it needs a ranking in the lowest, D.

Bringing back a post I made like a week ago about Bronzong before Aegislash was banned. Now that Aegislash is banned, this really does improve a lot. Definitely a solid Pokemon that needs to be ranked. Also, for reasons Jukain said and others as well.

 

[Srn]

Mega Charizard X burns enemies and Thundurus causes paralysis. I don't see how you can say that Thundurus can replace Mega Charizard X in that regard since the effects and repercussions of their statuses are completely different. Also, neither Mega Gyarados nor Mega Tyranitar have the versatility that Mega Charizard X has. Yes, all three can be used as Bulky DD sweepers, but Mega Charizard X can also be used as a faster DD sweeper by moving its EVS to speed instead of and it can also be used in Stall teams as a Will-o-Wisper. So, if it does Mega Gyarados's job and Mega Tyranitar's job just as well as them and can still pull off other sets for other play styles, it only makes sense to rank it higher than them. Lastly, Mega Charizard X may face competition for a mega slot, but it brings a lot to the table with very few drawbacks, so it's a much safer option than some of the other options like Mega Heracross and Mega Gardevoir.

Nah, while mega gyarados does indeed only dragon dance, it can change around its moves a little bit and greatly affect the way it plays. Mega Tyranitar is basically just changing fire punch for ice punch or vice versa, not too versatile like you said. But while mega gyarados only dragon dances, Taunt, sub, and the variation between ice fang or stone edge is enough to require different answers to mega gyara.
For example, slowbro could probably just toxic and spam slack off on a mega gyarados with 3 attacks, but slowbro is practically set up fodder against a mega gyara with taunt or sub.

 

[trc]

I think Bronzong should be ranked, I brought it up to Jukain and we talked about it a bit on IRC but he posted so I might as well say something. Basically it's a nice check to sand, Gard, Pinsir, sets up SR, resists choices flyers and stuff. TR isn't really it's main niche though.

 

[Jukain]

i have no real position on where zard x should be, but:

Gonna go down these one by one
Stealth Rock: Pack a Rapid Spinner/Defogger, which most good teams should have. Not really an issue.
Easy to revenge kill: and you don't explain how, maybe because it isn't. Besides a few things like Scarfchomp and Azumarill.
Overcrowded speed tier: Dragon Dance exists.
Lack of versatility: Versatile =\= good. Otherwise Mew would be Ubers. Also MMawile has like 2 sets. SD Sweeper and SubPunch with little variations on each. Just sayin.
Isn't as easy to slap on teams: Care to explain why? No? Okay then.
The main problem with this that there's little explanation of your reasoning. Which makes it way easier for me to destroy your arguments. And welcome to Smogon!

ironic you say lack of explanation, because your explanation is mediocre at best. dd mega charizard x is one of the most overhyped pokemon in the ou tier. it requires extensive support and specific conditions to sweep, as it has multiple common checks/counters on stall and offense. it needs sr gone, so you have to get a defogger or rapid spin, though most teams run this. it can't sweep offense in the face of azumarill, scarfchomp, (especially defensive) ttar, sand exca, thund, scarf landt, scarf terrak, heatran (unless eq, then it has other issues), and others. it can't sweep stall effectively in the presence of quag, aforementioned tran, phys def hippowdon, alomomola, and slowbro, pokemon which are very common on said teams. there are too many prerequisites and checks/counters that need to be accounted for for it to sweep.

that said, charizard x for its will-o-wisp set is probably worthy of at least a+ rank alone, and sd tw is a powerful breaker vs stall and can slam big holes in offense, and dd is still pretty good, so s rank is fair enough, but can everyone please stop acting like dd charizard x is this amazing god that can easily sweep teams with a +1 boost? thanks :]
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gengar -> a- rank

gengar isn't really that good. from my experiences lo sets are mediocre at best, and really the only especially threatening/good set is subwisp taunt. it's a decent stallbreaker, but with the presence of things like knock off spdef gliscor, spdef charizard x, and heatran, it's not nearly as good at this role as it once was. it also faces heavy competition with mew, which trades real offensive capabilities for knock off, a lot of bulk, and thus the ability to dismantle many offensive, balanced, and stall teams alike. i never really thought gar deserved a, it sure doesn't now.

mamoswine -> a rank

this is long deserved. mamoswine is very threatening to offensive teams, which often have little-to-no switch-ins for it. the sash set can get off sr very reliably, and usually put in serious work throughout the game if played well espec combined with hw support. it forces many guessing games that often result in many of offense's pokemon being screwed over. if you opt for endeavor over icicle spear, it even becomes a notable breaker against defensive teams. this isn't even mentioning the life orb set, which offense has even more reduced switch-ins/answers for. a great pokemon in the meta for awhile that's fully deserving of a rank. move it up :]

agree with heatran -> a+ rank, primarily for its offensive sets. scarftran is incredibly good, as we've seen from cbb's team. it serves as an effective revenge killer and nuke, so much has been said like it does 40% to keldeo and 2hkos latis, and revenges things like pinsir, charizard y, etc. air balloon + will-o-wisp is a good sr setter and mawile check. that can put an immense amount of pressure on the opposing team. finally, there's specstran, which isn't really used often but is an incredible nuke with almost no switch-ins besides chansey and av azumarill, it does like 65% to keldeo lol. heatran is a versatile and effective nuke/check to various threats for teams with its offensive sets. defensive sets are good, too, like subtoxic is a good staller/win con vs stall, it can check various different big threats, all that. albacore explained it really well, heatran is a natural a+ rank imo.

 

[Sanger Zonvolt]

How exactly are you going to stop a +1 mega gyarados with a 0 priority burn? Just wondering.

Char has plenty of uses; stopping set-up sweepers is not one of them.

I agree with you. In that situation, Thundurus will more likely save you. My point was more that Thundurus and Mega Charizard X spread two different status effects: one reduces attack and longevity, while one lowers speed and creates a hax chance. While both can be used to mess up potential sweepers, there are those who care far more about being burned than being paralyzed. Conversely, there are those that care more about being paralyzed than burned. Thus, comparing their ability to spread a status effect is like comparing apples and oranges, and to categorize Thundurus and Mega Charizard as just "status spreaders" ignores that subtle difference.

Nah, while mega gyarados does indeed only dragon dance, it can change around its moves a little bit and greatly affect the way it plays. Mega Tyranitar is basically just changing fire punch for ice punch or vice versa, not too versatile like you said. But while mega gyarados only dragon dances, Taunt, sub, and the variation between ice fang or stone edge is enough to require different answers to mega gyara.
For example, slowbro could probably just toxic and spam slack off on a mega gyarados with 3 attacks, but slowbro is practically set up fodder against a mega gyara with taunt or sub.

After reading the BP nerf threads I was under the impression that dropping a coverage move on Mega Gyarados was considered sub-par, but I never use it so I'll refrain from commenting on it any further.