Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

[kabbes]

I just don't get the Greninja hype. Maybe it's the nature of the teams I tend to run, but I never have a problem with it. It's certainly not like some of the other threats that worry me as soon as I see them on team preview. It's just not powerful enough, it lacks priority (aside from piss-weak Shadow Sneak and Water Shiriken), it's as frail as fuck and it is flat out outsped and killed by many choice scarf users. The biggest headache is usually second-guessing whether it is running either or both of Extrasensory and Grass Knot.

 

[Scubasage]

you don't have to spam shadow sneak. You use it once on the quick attack and you stay ghost type until ninja's next attack. If diggersby tries to qa again you will still be ghost type and now you can hit it with a super effective attack. Same for scarfed return

Shadow sneak is still niche as hell but know how to use it...

Fair enough, it beats Scarfed Diggersby locked into Normal attacks. And that's about it. Too niche to be a reason to put it up to S rank.

 

[Prinz]

I just don't get the Greninja hype. Maybe it's the nature of the teams I tend to run, but I never have a problem with it. It's certainly not like some of the other threats that worry me as soon as I see them on team preview. The biggest headache is usually second-guessing whether it is running either or both of Extrasensory and Grass Knot.

You are right, it's really frail and it can be taken out very easily, but alongside its speed and its wonderful ability, its strength is given to the fact that you will rarely know what it's carring at the moment. Hydro Pump / Ice Beam / Extrasensory are pretty common for the first 3 slots, but in the 4th slot as I already explained before it can run Hidden Power Fire, Grass, Grass Knot, U-Turn, Spikes, Shadow Sneak and Substitute making you in a bad position if it has the right move in the right moment and thats something that Keldeo can't do because of his more predictability, it's much bulkier than Keldeo thats true, but Greninja has some rly useful niches that make it of the top mon at the moment imo.

Scubasage

I wouldn't put it up to S rank just because of it can be scarfed diggersby, but because as I explained before, the unpredictabity of the moves it can run, that are all pretty useful and allows to bypass some of his checks or as well to support the team it's into too. Don't tell me Spikes isn't a big niche because I doubt it isnt true, hyper offense teams love Spikes and the fact that Greninja beats the most used Defog users (Lati twins and Mandibuzz) and some spinners too it's a great thing, or U-Turn to get momentum in hyper offense, thats a good niche as well. It's also extremely powerful thanks to Protean and it's very fast and outspeed and hits hard almost everything bar some Choice Scarf users (because yes, it can outspeed some like Magnezone as well) so in my opinion it deserves to be discussed about S rank cus it would deserve it, in case of.

 

[kabbes]

Ferrothorn with Gyro Ball stops all of those cold, though, except Hidden Fire (which still doesn't OHKO, if memory serves). And once you know it is running Hidden Fire, you know its set and can play around with it accordingly. I sometimes play Ferrothorn + specially defensive Rotom-W, for example, which isn't a core an HP Fire Greninja is going to enjoy. And meanwhile, it is losing 10% with every LO-powered attack.

I know that's a very specific example, but one way or other, every Greninja seems to end up hitting some wall or other.

 

[Scubasage]

Realistically, only Hidden Power Fire and Grass are the ones to worry about. Spikes is laughable because Greninja won't be able to consistently spread them throughout the match, U-turn is okay but it doesn't hit particularly hard and tons of pokemon get access to those momentum moves, shadow sneak and substitute are incredibly niche and will be dead weight against most teams, and even half the teams that have "targets" for those moves. Grass Knot is an option over HP Grass, of course, but it's weaker against Rotom-W, the third most common Water type after Keldeo and Azumarill (who are hit equally hard by either grass option). In fact, in the top 50, Slowbro is the only other water type besides those three and Greninja, and it's the only one hit harder by Grass Knot (not that Slowbro should ever really stay in on Greninja anyways).

EDIT: Forgot Gyarados, who is neutral to either Grass option pre-mega evolved, Grass Knot is stronger versus Mega Gyarados.

 

[AsynchronousIO]

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 40 SpD Ferrothorn: 374-442 (106.2 - 125.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

That aside, I don't think Greninja hitting a wall or two means that Greninja isn't deserving of S-Rank. Greninja may be fantastic, but it doesn't have to do everything, as it's one mon on a team of six. It may have problems with one mon or another, but remember that it will have teammates that can take them on. No S-Rank mon nowadays is expected to do everything all at once (if it can, it's probably getting suspected at some point). Zard X would still rather have hazards removed and things like Azumarill, Thundurus and Talonflame out of the way first. Azu doesn't appreciate Mega Venusaur's presence, Slowbro, or getting worn down. Plus Greninja's job isn't so much to wallbreak as to clean up, and it does that pretty awesomely.

 

[alexwolf]

I know very well that Greninja is a super frail pokèmon, but Keldeo isn't used to switch on things as well. Of course it has better defenses overall, but it has also lower Speed and it's much more predictable, being its much used set Choice Specs or Choice Scarf (I have also seen some Substitute set with Petaya/Salac berry but it doesnt mean much imo), while Greninja can run lots of moves at his 4th slot that let it be very threatening to deal with. Also while it's very frail, you guys should admit that it can hits really hard everything bar Chansey / Blissey, and it's one of the best pokèmon in hyper offense overall.

This is just false. Keldeo commonly switches in against Pokemon such as Bisharp, Mega Tyranitar, Mega Gyarados, Heatran, and Mega Scizor, because it is often offense's best bet against them. Of course if you need Keldeo healthy to check something late-game you will preserve it, but if not then Keldeo is an excellent early and mid-game check to many dangerous Pokemon. Greninja can't do this, in addition to being much weaker to every single kind of priority.

Also, another very important thing is that for an attacker / defender / supporter to fit the S rank criteria, it must either have plenty of switch-in chances, be very versatile to make countering / checking very hard or straight up broken offensively (Mega Kangaskhan), do its job reliably in most games, or a combination of all those three. Every single S rank Pokemon, including the banned suspects, fulfills those criteria, but Greninja doesn't. It is a very one sided Pokemon that has little to no versatility (especially with the Aegislash ban opening up one slot, meaning that the only variation you will see on Greninja is HP Grass / Fire), lacks switch-in chances, and can't do its job reliably against defensive and even some balanced teams, at least not without support. Yeah it is almost impossible to wall for offensive teams, and very hard to check, but the same is true for many other Pokemon, such as Mega Alakazam, Mega Aerodactyl, and Starmie. I am not saying Greninja and those three are on the same level, or similar, or anything like this, just giving an example of how being incredibly potent against offense doesn't make something S rank.

Not to mention that Greninja is a bit overrated because there are plenty of bulky Pokemon neutral to its moves that can wall it, such as Mew, SpD Mega Zard Y (sun up), Clefable, Chansey, bulky Kyu-B, SpD Gyarados, and plenty others that can act as very solid checks, such as AV Azumarill, SpD Mega Scizor (without HP Fire), Ferrothorn (without HP Fire), Suicune (without HP Grass, SpD Rotom-W (without HP Grass), Alomomola (without HP Grass), Slowbro (without HP Grass), and bulky Starmie (without HP Grass).

 

[Prinz]

Scubasage

I dont think so. Spikes is a very good option as well as the Hidden Powers, it also lets you to bypass Sucker Punch users that try to revenge-kill you thats another good thing the move gives and that I forgot to mention. You can also spread them easier than you think, as I have seen lot of people using Spikes Greninja on ladder and on Smogon Frontier / other tournament games with success.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-18071

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-17074

Just got these 2 replays, which can help you to see Spikes Greninja in action. As you can see, it isnt too difficult to spread the Spikes, especially on stall teams like DU's battle. Also remember that Greninja's very good coverage forces more mons out and thats something you can take advantage of, being careful of course because of its fragility

alexwolf

What you said its true, Keldeo is a solid switch-in on many things atm, but its completely false that its versatile. It runs or Specs or Scarf and thats it, and you can easily scout the set by the damages it does on your check (Latias for example), some people used it with Substitute + Salac or Petaya berry during World Cup and while these sets werent bad, they were quite gimmicky and situational so thats it. Also I wouldnt say that Greninja's 4th is either HP Fire or Grass because thats not true as well. Spikes is being more and more common and Substitute is a cool move too, alongside with U-Turn and Shadow Sneak even if they are less common. Keldeo is much bulkier and can actually checks threats which is something that Greninja can't do, but it's much more predictable as well, while Greninja is better against offense too, and if you are running Spikes it actually becomes a threat for balanced and stall teams as well, being capable to setup Spikes and to beat pretty much all the defog users we can see in the metagame (Skarmory, Mandibuzz and the lati twins). Also as you said, some counter / check are smashed by the right move if it is happening in the right moment, but you can't exactly know if its actually running it which let it becomes even more threatening. In summary I think that it can do some things that Keldeo can't do, and Greninja has some things that are worthy to take consideration of.

 

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

alright, since all the water types of A+ are going to S

-> S

in my opinion, Mega Gyarados is S rank worthy. It has the combination of a great setup move in Dragon Dance, 95/109/130 bulk bolstered by Intimidate, and Mold Breaker+Earthquake. Water/Flying typing pre-mega allows it to set up on Keldeo, non-Rock Slide/Stone Edge Lando-T, and with sub you set up on a variety of bulky waters like Alomomola, Slowbro, Suicune, Quagsire, as well as Gliscor and Skarmory. Mold Breaker in particular allows it to get by Rotom-W, Unaware users, and it can break Skarmory's Sturdy, so its really easy to set up on. Normal Gyarados' rising popularity is also beneficial to Mega Gyarados, since now its a crazy guessing game as to which it is. I honestly feel that its better than Greninja which is being nommed for S, and its an overall better setup sweeper than Zard X because it's way more consistent.

 

[alexwolf]

What you said its true, Keldeo is a solid switch-in on many things atm, but its completely false that its versatile. It runs or Specs or Scarf and thats it, and you can easily scout the set by the damages it does on your check (Latias for example), some people used it with Substitute + Salac or Petaya berry during World Cup and while these sets werent bad, they were quite gimmicky and situational so thats it. Also I wouldnt say that Greninja's 4th is either HP Fire or Grass because thats not true as well. Spikes is being more and more common and Substitute is a cool move too, alongside with U-Turn and Shadow Sneak even if they are less common. Keldeo is much bulkier and can actually checks threats which is something that Greninja can't do, but it's much more predictable as well, while Greninja is better against offense too, and if you are running Spikes it actually becomes a threat for balanced and stall teams as well, being capable to setup Spikes and to beat pretty much all the defog users we can see in the metagame (Skarmory, Mandibuzz and the lati twins). Also as you said, some counter / check are smashed by the right move if it is happening in the right moment, but you can't exactly know if its actually running it which let it becomes even more threatening. In summary I think that it can do some things that Keldeo can't do, and Greninja has some things that are worthy to take consideration of.

I didn't say that Keldeo is versatile, i said that it fulfills at least one of those criteria. You are right about Greninja's last slot, but a bit of versatility doesn't prevent it from having a lot of viable counters. Finally, all the counters i mentioned wall Greninja regardless of which common coverage moves it carries, that's why they are counters. The Pokemon that can wall Greninja if it lacks a certain Hidden Power are checks to it, and i labeled them as such.

 

[AM]

alright, since all the water types of A+ are going to S

-> S

in my opinion, Mega Gyarados is S rank worthy. It has the combination of a great setup move in Dragon Dance, 95/109/130 bulk bolstered by Intimidate, and Mold Breaker+Earthquake. Water/Flying typing pre-mega allows it to set up on Keldeo, non-Rock Slide/Stone Edge Lando-T, and with sub you set up on a variety of bulky waters like Alomomola, Slowbro, Suicune, Quagsire, as well as Gliscor and Skarmory. Mold Breaker in particular allows it to get by Rotom-W, Unaware users, and it can break Skarmory's Sturdy, so its really easy to set up on. Normal Gyarados' rising popularity is also beneficial to Mega Gyarados, since now its a crazy guessing game as to which it is. I honestly feel that its better than Greninja which is being nommed for S, and its an overall better setup sweeper than Zard X because it's way more consistent.

I understand we're establishing that S rank is having a little more leniency in what can be nominated but can we at least be realistic about some of these nominations and not just go off the obvious pros?. Greninja has been covered so not going to really say anything about that, I don't really care if it moves up or stays honestly. The problem I have with this nomination is that some of these things M-Gyarados still doesn't handle well. Like Foul Play Slowbro doesn't have a single care in the world about Sub M-Gyarados or M-Gyarados in general. Some variants of Keldeo opt to run HP electric for Gyarados to ease the mind games so it's usually not in M-Gyarados' favor. Suicune is somewhat ok but it doesn't change the fact that M-Gyarados is running a huge risk of being burnt by Scald. Mold Breaker is pretty awesome I'll give you that but I wouldn't say Skarmory is getting beat by M-Gyarados on a consistent basis unless you're getting flinched to death by waterfall, besides the fact you're not beating Taunt+Counter (<- Edit) Skarmory or you're getting phased out by Whirlwind. All in all sure, M-Gyarados can pull off what it does consistently but I don't believe it's an S rank mon. Maybe like top A+ sure, but idk seems like the line of what defines an A+ and S ranked mon is becoming pretty blurred with some of the recent noms and misunderstandings.

 

[Prinz]

I didn't say that Keldeo is versatile, i said that it fulfills at least one of those criteria. You are right about Greninja's last slot, but a bit of versatility doesn't prevent it from having a lot of viable counters. Finally, all the counters i mentioned wall Greninja regardless of which common coverage moves it carries, that's why they are counters. The Pokemon that can wall Greninja if it lacks a certain Hidden Power are checks to it, and i labeled them as such.

Well sorry for misunderstanding you on that. Even if in all your list of pokèmon that are somewhat solid answers to Greninja, I think that just Chansey, Blissey, SpD Mew, some Clefable (who run 96 EVs on SDef + Calm to being able to tank 2 HPumps) and SpD Gyara (even if rly not common.. I have seen it maybe 2 times in all world cup games, and as well as frontier games) can rly counter it not caring the moves it can run. As you said SpD Zor and Ferrothorn can be knocked out by HP Fire, Rotom-W by HP Grass etc so they are just situation checks. Anyway I completely know Greninja's limits (not being able to switch in pretty anything for example) so Im perfectly fine with it staying in A+ rank, just wanted to discuss a bit about that.

About Mega Gyarados I don't rly know, it's extremely good (it can actually setup on things thanks to Intimidate, can use Substitute to prevent status, can run Taunt to completely destroy stalls -expect against Amoonguss and M Venusaur and Mold Breakers is a very good trait, that lets it to bypass Rotom-W and Unaware users for example) but I don't think it really is S rank material, it's always revenge-killed by stuff (Scarf HP Electric Keldeo is becoming more and more common) and if its running Substitute or Taunt it lacks lot of coverage on things like Latios, Latias, M Venu and the list can go on.

 

[Kyuzeth]

Greninja (A+) -> S | I'm with the majority on this move. Greninja has all the tools it needs to rank itself amongst the other S-Rankers: a fantastic movepool, a fantastic stat spread that allow it to do what it does like no other and, above all, a fantastic Ability. Protean's type alteration to allow STAB and even supereffective damage is absolutely marvelous on a Pokémon like Greninja; frail as it may be, surviving a move after a type change is useful and can be abused quite easily and to great effect. Its movepool contains everything it needs to sweep entire teams and allow little to switch in on this shinobi amphibian: Hydro Pump as a massive Water-type STAB, Ice Beam as quintessential coverage for Water-types to ruin Dragon-, Flying- and Grass-types' days, Extrasensory to screw over Mega Venusaur and the Fighting-types in the tier, Grass Knot to strike Water-types like Mega Gyarados, Slowbro and Suicune and lastly, Hidden Power Fire to hit Ferrothorn, Mega Scizor and other Steel-types. Coupled with its signature Life Orb and you have yourself quite possibly the best special revenge killer and sweeper in the OU tier. 103 Special Attack initially doesn't seem like much, but when you consider it gets STAB on all of its moves, that's suddenly quite a frightening thought, especially when paired wit 122 Speed.
As with the current S-Rankers, Greninja isn't without its flaws. It's about as resilient as a paper airplane with its 72/67/71 defenses, which means it has trouble switching in and is susceptible to priority. Protean can be exploited as easily as it's abused and, as such, can leave Greninja in tight spots at times. As mentioned before, the ninja frog has a slight case of 4MSS, leaving it walled by at least something; Mega Venusaur if not running Extrasensory; Mega Gyarados, Slowbro and Suicune if not running Grass Knot and Steel-types, especially Ferrothorn, if not running HP Fire.
Don't let these flaws deter you from using what is legitimately a top-class Pokémon in contemporary OU, as Greninja is always capable of pulling its weight in every battle. If there's something you can't hit, a teammate can deal with it. Remember when Greninja was compared to Keldeo, a Pokémon currently residing in S-Rank who's always been on the same height as the frog up until it got moved? Well, I say Greninja's still on the same level as its equine rival. As mentioned by AsynchronousIO, other S-Rank Pokémon need support, just not too much. Greninja is a highly comparable case. Shinobi starts with S, where Greninja belongs.http://www.smogon.com/forums/members/asynchronousio.85479/

 

[trc]

I disagree with Greninja going to S Rank. It is a powerful, fast Pokemon that can do well against unprepared offenses, and it also shows that Water-types are some of the most dominant Pokemon in the tier right now. However, unlike the Pokemon in S Rank in which it can be compared to, it has far less switch-in opportunities, as well as more common answers. Greninja is vulnerable to a ton of priority moves simply because it changes types, and even strong priority that isn't super effective in most conditions (like Talonflame's Brave Bird) does a huge amount. Unlike Keldeo, another fast Water-type, Greninja has no resistances to take advantage of since its bulk is so poor, whereas Keldeo can switch into things like Bisharp, Mega Scizor, and Mega Gyarados. S Rank Pokemon should be effective against almost all playstyles, and have few checks / counters that appear commonly on both offensive and defensive teams. Offensive teams in general have a Choice Scarf user that outspeeds it and a Pokemon that can tank its moves, such as Choice Scarf Garchomp, Terrakion, and Keldeo for the former, and Mew, Clefable, SpD Rotom-W, and AV Azumarill as examples for the latter. Thundurus being everywhere on offensive teams also doesn't help. Defensive teams have no problem once they scout the Hidden Power which is easy to do as Ferrothorn commonly carries Protect, as do common victims of HP Grass such as Alomomola. Once that is done, defensive teams should have no problem with it as they commonly carry Pokemon like Chansey, Ferrothorn, Slowbro, Alomomola, Suicune, Rotom-W, SpD Mega Scizor, and SpD Gyarados.

 

[Vert]

Greninja is way to frail to even be S Rank. Its bulk is non existent and it faces with a plethora of 'mons depending on its last slot. You have even things that can set up on it like Gyarados, Clefable, Mega Tyranitar to an extent..., and priority and Choice Scarf is omnipresent. Walled by Alommomola, Azumarill, Rotom-W, and most bulky water-types is a pain as well. The Spikes set is good, but it is giving up a valuable slot. Its definitely one of the best PKMN in A+ Rank, but those flaws are not getting it to S Rank. It's facing these challenges and as the metagame progresses, we will see more of these users. Its a huge threat, but it's not deserving that rank. Keldeo is definitely worthy of S Rank. It can be easily slapped on any team to be a wallbreaker, revenge killer, CM booster, etc. It fills up many roles as well. Probably the worst 'mon in S Rank, but still a worthy candidate of it.

Tornadus-T needs to be bumped up to A- Rank ASAP in my opinion. I've nominated this thing to A- a million times this generation to be ignored by everyone. The bird has been a powerful tool for both stall and offensive teams which allows it to be used in unbreakable Regenerator cores or SPAMming powerful Hurricanes. I'm going to break this analysis into separate points.

1. Tornadus-T fits onto many teams with very little opportunity cost

This is the biggest draw out of using any PKMN. This things ability to fit on BirdSPAM, VoltTurn, Rain Offense, Stall, and [Semi] Bulky Offense easily makes it an excellent choice on any teams. Having low opportunity cost is great too. Regenerator allows it to continuously use U-turn, Knock Off / Taunt, and Hurricane through out the game is great making it a wise choice for a pivot. Regenerator either (or both) [A] allows it to avoid Stealth Rock gets it out of Life Orb trouble [C] recovers health from switching into moves like Keldeo's Secret Sword or tanking Bisharp's Sucker Punch [D] gives a useful pivot for offensive teams trying not to lose momentum, power, or something that can't tank hits all the time like Rotom-W. Combine all these facts with the Aegislash Ban, ability to use a powerful Hurricane, and make great cores, Tornadus-T is already standing high in its position.

2. Useful Movepool

Tornadus-T's movepool makes it a unique threat for the opponent. Its speed tier is great and it can abuse moves like Taunt, Knock Off, U-turn, and Rain Dance really well. Hurricane may have 70% accuracy, but it still is a good tool to threaten the offense. The main argument I am seeing is that Hurricane is poor so it is not worthy of A- Rank. Valmanway If you are basing your argument at this alone, you clearly have never used it. How about we drop Keldeo because it most powerful STAB only has 80% accuracy? Nah. Hurricane remains a powerful move that can put your opponent into a checkmate position due to it lack of resists and if your opponent does have one, Knock Off or Superpower is going to be crippling / beating those 'mons like Chansey, Tyranitar, and Thundurus-I (on switch).

3. Tornadus-T fairs well against most of the metagame

This is the ultimate reason why you use this thing. Its coming in on things like Mega Venusaur and Chansey to make them crap their pants and its speed tier allows it to revenge kill dangerous threats like Garchomp and Latios (assuming they are weakened a little bit). U-turn forces in counters / check to make your opponent lose their momentum. A fast U-turn especially paired with Knock Off / Taunt. It has excellent coverage move to beat like Heatran and Mega Scizor. Assault Vest sets are amazing pivots that can tank repeated hits, etc. If we never had a metagame like this, tornadus-T wouldn't be going past B Rank this generation.

There are other points, but these are the standard ones. The increasing usage of this thing is the fact that people are realizing these things. We have things like Mew in A-, but not this bird?

EDIT: Fuck you Jukain

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

I don't like Greninja in S rank, either. It basically has zero defensive capabilities, with low bulk and reliance on Life Orb. For any archetype that's not HO, it's not that hard to handle, especially after you know its fourth move. It has a lot of checks depending on its moveset and it's walled by any generic special wall not weak to its coverage.

Alexwolf is right imo. For something to be S-rank, it should either excel in numerous places (easy to switch in/adds defensive synergy, hard to check/counter, reliable, support options [e.g. pranskter twave]) or just be completely broken in one area. Greninja doesn't meet that.

 

[Slayerblade]

Clefable A+ ---> A It's versatile as hell and has a great typing and abilities. But It's stats are mediocre all around. It doesn't have that much raw bulk and most of the higher ranked mons can just muscle past it. A+ seems too high for it.

 

[Valmanway]

Greninja is way to frail to even be S Rank. Its bulk is non existent and it faces with a plethora of 'mons depending on its last slot. You have even things that can set up on it like Gyarados, Clefable, Mega Tyranitar to an extent..., and priority and Choice Scarf is omnipresent. Walled by Alommomola, Azumarill, Rotom-W, and most bulky water-types is a pain as well. The Spikes set is good, but it is giving up a valuable slot. Its definitely one of the best PKMN in A+ Rank, but those flaws are not getting it to S Rank. It's facing these challenges and as the metagame progresses, we will see more of these users. Its a huge threat, but it's not deserving that rank. Keldeo is definitely worthy of S Rank. It can be easily slapped on any team to be a wallbreaker, revenge killer, CM booster, etc. It fills up many roles as well. Probably the worst 'mon in S Rank, but still a worthy candidate of it.

Tornadus-T needs to be bumped up to A- Rank ASAP in my opinion. I've nominated this thing to A- a million times this generation to be ignored by everyone. The bird has been a powerful tool for both stall and offensive teams which allows it to be used in unbreakable Regenerator cores or SPAMming powerful Hurricanes. I'm going to break this analysis into separate points.

1. Tornadus-T fits onto many teams with very little opportunity cost

This is the biggest draw out of using any PKMN. This things ability to fit on BirdSPAM, VoltTurn, Rain Offense, Stall, and [Semi] Bulky Offense easily makes it an excellent choice on any teams. Having low opportunity cost is great too. Regenerator allows it to continuously use U-turn, Knock Off / Taunt, and Hurricane through out the game is great making it a wise choice for a pivot. Regenerator either (or both) [A] allows it to avoid Stealth Rock gets it out of Life Orb trouble [C] recovers health from switching into moves like Keldeo's Secret Sword or tanking Bisharp's Sucker Punch [D] gives a useful pivot for offensive teams trying not to lose momentum, power, or something that can't tank hits all the time like Rotom-W. Combine all these facts with the Aegislash Ban, ability to use a powerful Hurricane, and make great cores, Tornadus-T is already standing high in its position.

2. Useful Movepool

Tornadus-T's movepool makes it a unique threat for the opponent. Its speed tier is great and it can abuse moves like Taunt, Knock Off, U-turn, and Rain Dance really well. Hurricane may have 70% accuracy, but it still is a good tool to threaten the offense. The main argument I am seeing is that Hurricane is poor so it is not worthy of A- Rank. Valmanway If you are basing your argument at this alone, you clearly have never used it. How about we drop Keldeo because it most powerful STAB only has 80% accuracy? Nah. Hurricane remains a powerful move that can put your opponent into a checkmate position due to it lack of resists and if your opponent does have one, Knock Off or Superpower is going to be crippling / beating those 'mons like Chansey, Tyranitar, and Thundurus-I (on switch).

3. Tornadus-T fairs well against most of the metagame

This is the ultimate reason why you use this thing. Its coming in on things like Mega Venusaur and Chansey to make them crap their pants and its speed tier allows it to revenge kill dangerous threats like Garchomp and Latios (assuming they are weakened a little bit). U-turn forces in counters / check to make your opponent lose their momentum. A fast U-turn especially paired with Knock Off / Taunt. It has excellent coverage move to beat like Heatran and Mega Scizor. Assault Vest sets are amazing pivots that can tank repeated hits, etc. If we never had a metagame like this, tornadus-T wouldn't be going past B Rank this generation.

There are other points, but these are the standard ones. The increasing usage of this thing is the fact that people are realizing these things. We have things like Mew in A-, but not this bird?

Jukain was the one to bring up the accuracy issues, not me (though I do agree with his argument), and he brought up some other issues as well, so I don't know why you tagged me and not him.

 

[Karxrida]

I don't agree with Greninja going to S. It wrecks a lot of HO teams but other teams usually have like 3 answers to it without even trying.

 

[AM]

Clefable A+ ---> A It's versatile as hell and has a great typing and abilities. But It's stats are mediocre all around. It doesn't have that much raw bulk and most of the higher ranked mons can just muscle past it. A+ seems too high for it.

most of the higher tier stuff muscle past a lot, that doesn't necessarily mean something like clefable is bad. With access to Magic guard and unaware, great typing with Fairy, access to a bunch of useful tools like CM, Stealth Rock, Twave, and a handful of options for use as a cleric, it's wicked useful. It can stay in A+

 

[Gloating]

I think Dragonite should move down. The meta just isn't kind to it from my experience, CB is pretty much it's only good set as everything else is pretty mediocre or done better by something else. Multiscale is so easy to break it's not even funny. The CB set has to predict things like Ferrothorn to catch it with a Fire Punch and if you don't predict correctly you can get screwed over. It doesn't have an easy time switching in either because of SR and mediocre defenses with Multiscale broken. It can't even use it's most powerful move Outrage because of Fairies and Steels and it never uses Life Orb because it really wants Multiscale. I may be wrong so I'd like to hear people's opinions about this.

 

[alexwolf]

I think Dragonite should move down. The meta just isn't kind to it from my experience, CB is pretty much it's only good set as everything else is pretty mediocre or done better by something else. Multiscale is so easy to break it's not even funny. The CB set has to predict things like Ferrothorn to catch it with a Fire Punch and if you don't predict correctly you can get screwed over. It doesn't have an easy time switching in either because of SR and mediocre defenses with Multiscale broken. It can't even use it's most powerful move Outrage because of Fairies and Steels and it never uses Life Orb because it really wants Multiscale. I may be wrong so I'd like to hear people's opinions about this.

From my experience, the opposite is true. Offensive teams can't run Aegislash to protect from CBNite anymore, and soon Mega Mawile will be leaving too, leaving those kinds of teams at the mercy of Dragonite. Starmie becoming more viable definitely helps a lot in keeping SR off the field, as well as giving to Dragonite a great partner to deal with a lot of its checks such as bulky Ground-types and Skarmory. Not to mention that CB ES is even better because the metagame is getting more offensive. Cleaning up with Extremespeed has become even easier with improved frail strong Pokemon (Mega Medicham, Starmie, Hawlucha, Mega Alakazam) getting more and more common.

 

[Scubasage]

Scubasage

I dont think so. Spikes is a very good option as well as the Hidden Powers, it also lets you to bypass Sucker Punch users that try to revenge-kill you thats another good thing the move gives and that I forgot to mention. You can also spread them easier than you think, as I have seen lot of people using Spikes Greninja on ladder and on Smogon Frontier / other tournament games with success.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-18071

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-17074

Just got these 2 replays, which can help you to see Spikes Greninja in action. As you can see, it isnt too difficult to spread the Spikes, especially on stall teams like DU's battle. Also remember that Greninja's very good coverage forces more mons out and thats something you can take advantage of, being careful of course because of its fragility

So in the first replay, Greninja sacrificed itself to get up two layers of spikes...that didn't actually matter. Those spikes didn't change any 2HKOs into OHKOs, nor did constant switching cause a pokemon to be worn down considerably by them.

In the second replay, the spikes only mattered against Quagsire, nothing else was bothered by them much. On top of that, Greninja was gonna get stalled out by Skarmory if Mien wanted it, but he figured a layer of spikes was worth more than his Skarmory.

And in both replays the Greninja user lost. Granted, the first one was cause of hax, but in the first replay the spikes had no real impact.

Not the best ones to try and argue for Spikes on Greninja.

 

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

call me batshit insane but i think granbull could go to d. its a counter to heracross and medicham. want sum calcs?

-1 252+ Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Granbull: 115-140 (29.9 - 36.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

-1 252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Granbull: 138-163 (35.9 - 42.4%) -- 92.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

granbull also has some utility in heal bell, but its mostly outclassed by clefable in this role. it also kinda needs to run rest, so u either need sleep talk or a cleric. granbull also isnt completely passive, because heracross can't overpower it as it is 2hko'd by play rough. medicham is almost always KO'd, SR guarantees. it also beats some misc shit like dnite and ttar. granbull is ass but if arcanine is ranked then why isn't granbull?

 

[Salemance]

call me batshit insane but i think granbull could go to d. its a counter to heracross and medicham. want sum calcs?

-1 252+ Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Granbull: 115-140 (29.9 - 36.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

-1 252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Granbull: 138-163 (35.9 - 42.4%) -- 92.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

granbull also has some utility in heal bell, but its mostly outclassed by clefable in this role. it also kinda needs to run rest, so u either need sleep talk or a cleric. granbull also isnt completely passive, because heracross can't overpower it as it is 2hko'd by play rough. medicham is almost always KO'd, SR guarantees. it also beats some misc shit like dnite and ttar. granbull is ass but if arcanine is ranked then why isn't granbull?

I feel as if I could annoyed by that sentence somehow but regardless:

Granbull is a very interesting Fairy type (can actually be physically defensive and an offensive mon) and I think it has the tools to be ranked personally but idk if for necessarily those reasons. One thing to note is that Mega Heracross, if taking the stall breaker route, will attempt to SD, making a calc look like this:

+1 252 Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Granbull: 235-280 (61.1 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Which is still quite impressive, but nothing more than what Clefable can already do (if albeit sort of if not suffering any prior damage) and Granbull can reply only in kind with (as you stated but im just bringing it up anyway):

0 Atk Granbull Play Rough vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Heracross: 204-240 (67.5 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

But hell, we've ranked weirder stuff before. I think Granbull could do fine but idk, D may seem justified (like alongside Mantine) so that's bout it :D