CAP 19 CAP 19 - Part 4 - Primary Ability Discussion

[jas61292]

Of the abilities mentioned so far, I think that Water Absorb and its ilk are some of the best options. Gyarados does not specifically have trouble with most water types, but the threat of scald makes it hard to reliably set up on things like Keldeo, even with a full resistance to its movesets. As alexwolf mentioned, these do have the downside of taking away things like choice locked Hydro Pump as set up opportunities for Gyarados, over all, I see it playing to our advantages. With that said, I personally prefer Water Absorb over Dry Skin. Being slightly bigger bait for fire type moves is kinda nice, what with Gyarados resisting them. However, at the same time, Dry Skin does a bit to encourage placing the CAP on a rain team, which usually have their own set of set up sweepers that they would go with, rather than Gyarados. Its not a major concern, but I personally don't think that a 1.25x weakness is worth the possible distraction. Storm Drain, on the other hand, is a definitely viable options. The contrast between Storm Drain and Water Absorb is all about what role we want to take.

On the other hand, one ability that has been mentioned a decent amount that I very much dislike is Iron Barbs/Rough Skin. I understand some of the benefits that people have mentioned, however I think that any ability that could kill the opponent is very dangerous for this concept. The entire goal we have is free setup, and if the opponent is KOed at the same time as us, which is very possible with an ability like this, we could very easily lose any opportunity that we otherwise could have had. While I will admit that punishing U-Turners further than simply by resisting their moves is kinda nice, I believe that this could be done better with something like Static, which inflicts a crippling condition on contact users without ever risking losing our set up opportunities.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

Of the abilities mentioned so far, I think that Water Absorb and its ilk are some of the best options. Gyarados does not specifically have trouble with most water types, but the threat of scald makes it hard to reliably set up on things like Keldeo, even with a full resistance to its movesets. As alexwolf mentioned, these do have the downside of taking away things like choice locked Hydro Pump as set up opportunities for Gyarados, over all, I see it playing to our advantages. With that said, I personally prefer Water Absorb over Dry Skin. Being slightly bigger bait for fire type moves is kinda nice, what with Gyarados resisting them. However, at the same time, Dry Skin does a bit to encourage placing the CAP on a rain team, which usually have their own set of set up sweepers that they would go with, rather than Gyarados. Its not a major concern, but I personally don't think that a 1.25x weakness is worth the possible distraction. Storm Drain, on the other hand, is a definitely viable options. The contrast between Storm Drain and Water Absorb is all about what role we want to take.

On the other hand, one ability that has been mentioned a decent amount that I very much dislike is Iron Barbs/Rough Skin. I understand some of the benefits that people have mentioned, however I think that any ability that could kill the opponent is very dangerous for this concept. The entire goal we have is free setup, and if the opponent is KOed at the same time as us, which is very possible with an ability like this, we could very easily lose any opportunity that we otherwise could have had. While I will admit that punishing U-Turners further than simply by resisting their moves is kinda nice, I believe that this could be done better with something like Static, which inflicts a crippling condition on contact users without ever risking losing our set up opportunities.

I don't see the problem with being able to be used on a rain team, since they are not all that common this gen and I don't see it being as good as set up bait on for rain sweepers instead of Mega Gyarados, if it has a niche on a rain team I'm fine with that, but if its more viable on a rain team then as a lure for Mega Gyarados setup bait, then we have a problem. Also I definitely agree with you on the Iron Barbs/Rough skin thing, we want to keep our setup bait alive, if we have a damaging ability like these than that can be kinda hard to do, options like Gooey or Static would be better.

 

[FireArrow]

What we do NOT want is something like Tinted Lens, or any offensive ability really. Gyarados is the sweeper, CAP should provide support by dealing with his threats primarily.

Supporting a sweeper =/= defensive.

Ever heard of fly spam? Spamming flying-type attacks from a wall breaker like Staraptor to break down Pinsir's counters. I've always imagined CAP19 doing this, then once it's job is done, handing it off to Gyarados to finish the show.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

Supporting a sweeper =/= defensive.

Ever heard of fly spam? Spamming flying-type attacks from a wall breaker like Staraptor to break down Pinsir's counters. I've always imagined CAP19 doing this, then once it's job is done, handing it off to Gyarados to finish the show.

The difference between that Flyspam core and the relationship we are making between CAP19 and Mega Gyarados is that Staraptor is not a lure, it is not trying to bring in something that Mega Pinsir can set up on, instead, its trying to kill everything that can wall out Mega Pinsir.

 

[FireArrow]

The difference between that Flyspam core and the relationship we are making between CAP19 and Mega Gyarados is that Staraptor is not a lure, it is not trying to bring in something that Mega Pinsir can set up on, instead, its trying to kill everything that can wall out Mega Pinsir.

But those two things aren't mutually exclusive.

Being a wallbreaker that the opponent needs to revenge kill with *insert something we want to bait* does what we want so much better than any other ideas I've seen.

 

[Polydrake]

aftermath is a nice ability as it breaks excadrill, gengar, and brelooms sash so it could open up opportunity for gyarados to gain a moxie boost from the weakened pokemon then mega evolve and have a free +1 boost to it's attack. It could also add even more recoil to talonflame's brave bird. (assuming that talon would kill Cap 19 in a weakened state.

regenerater could also work as this thing isn't SR weak and could switch into the thunderbolts and grass knots aimed at mega gyarados. Not much to expland upon here just a good way to keep Cap 19 aliv.

 

[NumberCruncher]

Of the abilities mentioned so far, I think that Water Absorb and its ilk are some of the best options. Gyarados does not specifically have trouble with most water types, but the threat of scald makes it hard to reliably set up on things like Keldeo, even with a full resistance to its movesets. As alexwolf mentioned, these do have the downside of taking away things like choice locked Hydro Pump as set up opportunities for Gyarados, over all, I see it playing to our advantages. With that said, I personally prefer Water Absorb over Dry Skin. Being slightly bigger bait for fire type moves is kinda nice, what with Gyarados resisting them. However, at the same time, Dry Skin does a bit to encourage placing the CAP on a rain team, which usually have their own set of set up sweepers that they would go with, rather than Gyarados. Its not a major concern, but I personally don't think that a 1.25x weakness is worth the possible distraction. Storm Drain, on the other hand, is a definitely viable options. The contrast between Storm Drain and Water Absorb is all about what role we want to take.

The problem is that CAP needs to be speedy to make up for his rather awkward typing, at least quick enough to take down Mega-Gardevoir. At the point it becomes faster than Mega Gardevoir, it's now faster than every Water type in the format barring Scarfed Keldeos and Greninjas. That means we can plow them under with Electric STAB before they can land a hit. And being Choiced into Scald is hardly an advantageous situation even if you do get the burn, since you still have to switch to keep Gyarados from doing more Dragon Dancing and completing the sweep anyway, especially since you gave up the ability to have an item that increases damage output for Choice Scarf. Further, Scald is only normal-efficiency anyway, so there's no reason to assume Scald would be terrible for CAP to take, especially since most people seem to be looking at this as possibly a Special-oriented 'mon.

regenerater could also work as this thing isn't SR weak and could switch into the thunderbolts and grass knots aimed at mega gyarados. Not much to expland upon here just a good way to keep Cap 19 aliv.

This is also a very workable ability for it to have. There are situations where the opponent just slams against it with random moves until his lead dies, then take out CAP with a Pokemon we were planning to hard counter with it. This is a way the opponent can flip the concept on us, where running the CAP means we feel uncomfortable killing the opponent's Pokemon, since that might open up a sweep on the other end of the table. Regenerator stops those from happening by keeping CAP fresh and healthy without having to give up a turn for recovery moves.

 

[FoxOfShadows]

aftermath is a nice ability as it breaks excadrill, gengar, and brelooms sash

Aftermath only works when the user is knocked out by a physical move so unless you're running physical Gengar, that's not going to happen

 

[Boss jr.]

I would like to point out that we've never said at any point that we didn't want CAP 19 to be able to KO other Pokemon, nor were we to design a Pokemon that was a sacrifice or anything like that. It seems that we're still having trouble shaking the stigma that CAP 19 is made to die even though that was never the goal. It's made so that IF it dies it will hopefully have baited in something that MGyara and/or other Dragon Dancing Pokemon could easily set up on and revenge kill, kicking off a sweep as this seemed like the best way for a Pokemon to leave a "lasting impact" on the field "after it dies".

Chances are pretty good with such obviously exploitable weaknesses that CAP 19 won't actually be using any of these abilities (iron barbs, rough skin etc.) to actualy KO any of it's counters. Neither do I think that the damage inflicted will leave a substantial impact on the game that gives Guarados or any other possible partners, any kind of considerable advantage as far as setting up is concerned. Not only because these abilities are highly situational and dependent upon making physical contact, but also because if an opponent was going to risk it (considering the cost), they would probably make sure they dealt a fatal blow. Not like it really matters because knowing that they've been baited there are only two options; Stay in and maybe lose a Pokemon in an effort to destabilize a setup attempt. OR; Switch out into something that can compete with Mgyara better (which gives us a free turn to DD).

Edit: BTW... Earthquake is a move that we are definitely likely to lose CAP 19 to (because of a 4x weakness and ridiculous distribution) is Physical and would activate any of the abilities that are conditional upon making physical contact. It's unlikely that with the weakness, the opponent would suffer the loss of a Pokemon. Considering the kind of damage a Poison/Electric Pokemon could do to a team just spreading status around it's unlikely the opponent would want CAP 19 to survive for very long. Exploiting the obvious 4x ground weakness seems to be the most reliable way to get rid of it. Tack STAB on top of that and (barring the possibility of absurd physical bulk) CAP 19 is unlikely to survive. If we caused a little damage in return, how much of a difference does that make? Considering also that we probably didn't cause enough damage to discourage killing CAP 19. (either in the form of aftermath, recoil or burn status)

 

[V4LOVER]

Earthquake (...) would activate any of the abilities that are conditional upon making physical contact.

Earthquake is not a contact move and would not activate Aftermath.

 

[Sun King]

Something worth noting--if we want to be beaten by Keldeo, giving CAP 19 an immunity to Water will completely reverse that; if I'm not mistaken, we want to draw the water type attacks--not deter them. Also, if we want to remove things like Breloom and Amoongus from the game, we might want to look at things that eliminate their Spore. With that said, perhaps an ability like Overcoat that makes CAP 19 immune to the incoming Spore.

OR you could take another route, which someone proposed earlier, with Bulletproof. I actually really like this one because it makes you immune to Breloom's Bullet Seed, Amoongus' Sludge Bomb, and Ferrothorn's Gyro Ball. As ginganinja said, we want this thing to function in a vacuum, which it definitely could with Bulletproof.

Regardless--I think we should focus on an ability that helps deter Gyarados' counters.

Hide

I must admit it's a shame Aegi's not in the metagame, because Bulletproof would have made this CAP a great answer to Aegi

 

[V4LOVER]

OR you could take another route, which someone proposed earlier, with Bulletproof. I actually really like this one because it makes you immune to Breloom's Bullet Seed, Amoongus' Sludge Bomb, and Ferrothorn's Gyro Ball.

While being immune to those would be nice, all of those are resisted. In fact, Electric/Poison typing resists quite a lot of the Bulletproof moves already. It would work better as a secondary ability and not a primary, as while it does serve a purpose it isn't important enough to promote as the primary ability.

 

[Deck Knight]

In general I'm opposed to Water immunity abilities because it makes CAP19 a full stop to Gyarados itself (as well as Quagsire, which wouldn't even be able to poison CAP with Toxic). Air Balloon + Water Absorbing ability would allow it to completely counter Gyarados w/out Ice Fang, and as Gyarados would never lead with it and would prefer to have the option to Taunt or Substitute, I think water absorbing abilities are not the way to go. While they do discourage Scald SPAM, it discourages *all* water moves, including the ones Gyarados would like to set up on.

I think Static is a good middle ground between the residual damage benefits of Iron Barbs and the potential loss of set-up opportunities. Iron Barbs does have the advantage of reliably initiating its effect on contact, where Static doesn't. That said, Iron Barbs forcing a double-KO would already tend to be in Gyarados' favor because of the moves being used, and it wouldn't cause double KO's in a situation Gyarados would want to immediately take over (like against EQ or Psychic.)

 

[Zebstrika]

I support Flame Body, Mummy, Static and Effect Spore.

There was some support on the first page for Iron Barbs, and the way it can screw with physical attackers like priority users and u turn. Status, even at only 30% chance is far better than chip damage though, because it leads to a set up turn much more easily.

Flame Body kills the attacker's offensive presence. It's not hard to see why that can lead to a free turn. Oh and just for fun, it also does the same chip damage as Iron Barbs.

Static allows the set up sweeper to offensively scare out pokemon it would be easily scared out by otherwise. For example, you can sac CAP on a boosted Mega Tyranitar's Crunch, which allows Gyarados to scare it out with Waterfall. Without the paralysis, Mega Tyranitar could just smack it with Stone Edge and call it a day. Gooey has this same effect at a lot more consistency, but lacks Static's nice way of haxing its way into a few more free turns. More importantly, Gooey is temporary. While Gooey can be just as good of a KO deterrent in the short term, Static is far better at deterring KOs in the long run because it cripples the attacker permanently.

Effect Spore is kind of like Static, trading 20% of the paralysis chance for 9% poison and 11% sleep (fun fact, it's actually not split 10/10). The poison gets off some extra damage but ultimately isn't that important. But the Sleep chance is amazing when it activates, that totally cripples the attacker AND creates a set up turn all in one.

Mummy doesn't have the same kind of permanent crippling that the others do, but it can cripple some pokemon like Azumarill or Greninja more reliably since it has a 100% activation rate, so it can still lead to a free set up turn. It also lets me use that gimmicky core with Slaking where I can Pursuit the attacker to get Mummy on Slaking.

All of these anti-contact abilities are better than Iron Barbs, which only gets chip damage. Iron Barbs discourages using contact moves to KO, but isn't very crippling. It does absolutely nothing to help generate a free turn upon KO. It can actually be slightly detrimental to this by KOing the attacker, letting the opponent put out a more threatening pokemon to prevent a free turn.

 

[alexwolf]

In general I'm opposed to Water immunity abilities because it makes CAP19 a full stop to Gyarados itself (as well as Quagsire, which wouldn't even be able to poison CAP with Toxic). Air Balloon + Water Absorbing ability would allow it to completely counter Gyarados w/out Ice Fang, and as Gyarados would never lead with it and would prefer to have the option to Taunt or Substitute, I think water absorbing abilities are not the way to go. While they do discourage Scald SPAM, it discourages *all* water moves, including the ones Gyarados would like to set up on.

I think Static is a good middle ground between the residual damage benefits of Iron Barbs and the potential loss of set-up opportunities. Iron Barbs does have the advantage of reliably initiating its effect on contact, where Static doesn't. That said, Iron Barbs forcing a double-KO would already tend to be in Gyarados' favor because of the moves being used, and it wouldn't cause double KO's in a situation Gyarados would want to immediately take over (like against EQ or Psychic.)

Mega Gyarados doesn't care about Water immunity abilities as it has Mold Breaker. Also, the only Water move that is discouraged with those abilities is Hydro Pump from Keldeo, as most other Water-types use Scald, such as Suicune, Slowbro, and Alomomola. Rotom-W has Volt Switch and WoW to fuck up with Mega Gyarados, so it's not a good set up target, while Azumarill has Play Rough, so it's also not a good target. Basically, the only thing we are discouraging as a set up target for Mega Gyarados is choice locked Keldeo into Hydro Pump, which is not that big of a deal considering the benefits of those abilities.

Static is a decent idea that can punish U-turn users and revenge killers to Mega Gyarados, such as Brave Bird Talonflame, Close Combat Terrakion, and Play Rough Azumarill, but i think there are better options right now and Static seems more like a secondary ability.

 

[Stratos]

I don't like the idea of almost any of these after-contact effects, when Ground attacks that hit CAP 19 won't be making contact.

Instead, I have a somewhat radical proposal: Arena Trap

With Arena Trap, we can make Gyarados's ability to set up a lot more secure by first removing Breloom from the field. Want to weaken or maybe even remove some Bulky Waters or Clefable? Want to force Greninja to be the thing that kills you? Simple, don't let them switch out.

I think what this idea of enabling a Mega Gyarados sweep needs to succeed is some removal of choice. Prankster support moves are great and all, but not if you use them on the wrong Pokemon because it could switch out. If we want to go that sort of route, it'd be better to use Arena Trap and simply give high enough speed to grant support when we get to stats.

This ability arguably is also the best in terms of general aid to a set-up teammate because you can trap and weaken/status/remove anything grounded. Want that Heatran gone for your Mega Mawile? Maybe it has a Ground move, or if nothing else Specs HP Ground (lol).

While Arena Trap is a very powerful ability I think it's important to remember its weaknesses in the context of OU and the type we chose.

Mons we cannot trap or don't easily beat with our typing:
S rank: Mega Charizard-X, Landorus, Thundurus, Mega Mawile
A rank: Mega Charizard-Y, Excadrill, Garchomp, Latias, Latios, Mega Pinsir, Talonflame, (Mega) Tyranitar, Mega Venusaur, Dragonite, Ferrothorn, Gliscor, Hippowdon, Landorus-T, Mamoswine, Mandibuzz, Rotom-W, Diggersby, Kyurem-B
etc, etc.

We will need to be cautious in stats and movepool (particuarly stats) if we go this route, but I think it is the most pro-concept in terms of "leaving its presence on the field even after it faints" in that it can pick and choose what opposing Pokemon will be the one to take it out.

absolutely not. Remember that the concept is actually nothing to do with mega gyarados, but "a pokemon that discourages its own knockout." Trapping a Pokemon is about as far from discouraging your own knockout as you can get.

I'd recommend that everyone keep this in the forefront of their mind. We are trying to discourage our own knockout via the threat of gyarados, yes, but still discourage our own knockout. Anything which throws our life away intentionally to help Gyarados sweep is anti-concept.

 

[UUisthebest]

I think that the water immunity abilities would be good as the only thing that they prevent from hitting the CAP is Keldeo as Greninja should have psychic type coverage to deal with the CAP. Another possibility would be Magic Guard to switch in and absorb will-o-wisp burns. This also encourages Keldeo to use Hydro Pump rather than wall it completely.

 

[ginganinja]

Regenerator

Is just a generically good ability. Yes, it helps this CAP pivot around a bit more, but then again, I don't see Gyarados switching in over over the course of the match. If it hasn't Mega Evo'd, then its SR weak with a lack of leftovers, so residual damage is a killer, and if it has Mega Evo'd, then its lost Intimidate, one of the best tools for Gyarados to set up with, as well as switching to a typing that makes it a little harder to set up. Ergo, I don't think out CAP NEEDS regen in order to take Thunderbolts / Grass Knots directed at Gyarados, because I see Gyarados making the use of its one free turn, as opposed to something like Aegislash that could switch in and out and still find easy opportunities to go for a sweep.

Mummy

Is a nice ability until Gyarados decides to use a contact move on a pokemon with Mummy which removes Mold Breaker. Yes, its a nice ability but its heavily reliant on contact moves (so as such special attacks are unaided), and its still a situationally useful ability even if it does trigger. If Gyarados didn't often use so many contact moves, I would be a little more open to it, but as it stands, its still only a situationally useful ability that can be situationally undesirable for Mega Gyarados so for this reason I am currently unfavourable toward it.

Static / Flame Body / Effect Spore

These are all good abilities and they all do pretty similar things, so I'm lumping them into the same category. Strictly speaking, there isn't anything wrong with these abilities, although I have a personal dislike of abilities that pretty much only trigger if you are lucky (or unlucky if you are the opponent). Everyone knew how dumb it was to lose to an untimely scald burn in BW, and I would prefer to have an ability that you can rely on activating, rather than flipping a coin and hoping you get heads. I guess there is nothing wrong with them as a whole, and would consider slating one provided it had strong supporting arguments, but at this stage I would prefer something thats a little more reliable.

 

[FireArrow]

Iron barbs has been getting a lot of bandwagoning, but it has the same inherit issue as aftermath. We should avoid all moves that deal indirect damage to the opponent as we could potentially take the opponent down with us, robbing us of our free switch.

Iron Barbs seems like an ideal ability to both foster independence from Gyarados and align with the concept's notion of creating a Pokemon your opponent does not want to faint immediately. Electric/Poison resists the most ubiquitous forms of priority in the tier in FlySPAM, Bullet Punch, and Mach Punch - and Iron Barbs also does nothing to discourage the Ground types we want CAP to lure in. Earthquake and Earth Power are both non-contact.

By giving CAP the opportunity to switch into these moves which so commonly threaten a Mega Gyarados sweep (well, FlySPAM and Mach Punch anyway), and weaken or even KO the threats with recoil, we facilitate its role both as a Gyarados partner and a threat unto itself. The fact Iron Barbs also punishes U-turn given CAP's Bug resistance also reduces the ability of U-turn users to dissuade Gyarados from Mega Evolving. Gyarados also enjoys facing threats that have suffered residual damage, and Iron Barbs can act as a psuedo-Stealth Rock or Spikes layer with proper prediction.

As to Iron Barbs vs. Rough Skin, I just like the idea of Barbs for a Poison type...

 

[Burt Racecar]

I am very much opposed to the water absorbing abilities.
Gyarados can potentially set up on water mons, absorbing their STABs will just serve to chase most of them away.
Not like they won't already be chased away due to our typing... Exceptions being Greninja, which is arguably one of the best things for Gyarados to set up on, and possibly psyshock Slowbro, and of course Quagsire who will be major pain regardless of ability. The latter two are not pokemon for Gyarados to set up on, both having impressive physical bulk and access to Scald.
Yeah, I'm aware that this is the purpose of the water absorbing abilities, to prevent Gyarados from being burned, which is why CAP19 should sensibly knock out Scald users.

The way I see it we have other options to cope with stray burns from scald, our other four teammates for example, we don't have to try and deal with every problem Gyarados could encounter with CAP. Our other team members are there to provide support to Gyarados as well as CAP19.
The other option is Guts/Flare Boost this should discourage scald spam somewhat, and allow CAP19 to take Scald with impunity.

Currently my favoured abilities are Static and Iron Barbs though.

EDIT: cleaned up, added a little more.

 

[GoldNinja]

I am very much opposed to water absorbing abilities.
Gyarados can potentially set up on water mons, absorbing their STABs will just serve to chase most of them away.
Not like they shouldn't already be chased away due to our typing. Exceptions being Greninja, which is arguably one of the best things for Gya to set up on, and possibly psyshock Slowbro, and of course Quagsire who will be major pain regardless of ability.

The way I see it we have other options to cope with stray burns from scald, our other four teammates for example, we don't have to try and deal with every problem Gyarados has. CAP19 functions as a lure in regards to Gyarados not a perfect partner.
The other option is Guts/Flare Boost this should discourage scald spam somewhat.

But my favoured abilities are Static and Iron Barbs.

I'll clean up this post later when I'm not on my phone

I'll reiterate what a few others have said in regard to Iron Barbs and Aftermath. We DON'T want passive damage because if it takes out the opponent we lose the free switch that we're trying to gain. Flare Boost is an interesting option though. The main thing we're trying to avoid here is the possibility of Gyara getting burned through Scald spam or a stray WoW. Even though I'm not necessarily wanting CAP 19 to have an offensively based ability, the threat of a potential powerhouse via Flare Boost could give Gyara a chance to switch in without the threat of being burned.

 

[Burt Racecar]

I'll reiterate what a few others have said in regard to Iron Barbs and Aftermath. We DON'T want passive damage because if it takes out the opponent we lose the free switch that we're trying to gain. Flare Boost is an interesting option though. The main thing we're trying to avoid here is the possibility of Gyara getting burned through Scald spam or a stray WoW. Even though I'm not necessarily wanting CAP 19 to have an offensively based ability, the threat of a potential powerhouse via Flare Boost could give Gyara a chance to switch in without the threat of being burned.

I completely understand that we don't want Gyarados to be burned and that that's the primary purpose of the water absorbing abilities, but our typing already achieves this, through threat of a KO in my opinion. Water Absorb et. al. and even Guts and Flare Boost simply give CAP a means to switch into scald freely or relatively so.
These abilities just further secure what CAP does through typing imo.


Now, as for Iron Barbs, I think you guys misunderstand just how pro-concept this ability is. Yes, CAP's team doesn't want to lose out on the free switch from a double KO due to Iron Barbs, but that won't happen if CAP is KO'd in the 'safest' way, by Earthquake. If the player is sensible, then Iron barbs actively encourages the opponent to plan how to remove CAP without losing their momentum, but by doing so they themselves make somewhat of a sacrifice. This ability with regards to CAP and Gyarados is NOT about the passive damage it brings, instead it's about filtering the moves used to KO CAP.

In short:
Kill CAP quickly and suffer Gyarados.
Kill CAP cautiously, suffer immediate damage (iron barbs, CAP's moves), but prevent Gyarados from setting up.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

I completely understand that we don't want Gyarados to be burned and that that's the primary purpose of the water absorbing abilities, but our typing already achieves this, through threat of a KO in my opinion. Water Absorb et. al. and even Guts and Flare Boost simply give CAP a means to switch into scald freely or relatively so.
These abilities just further secure what CAP does through typing imo.


Now, as for Iron Barbs, I think you guys misunderstand just how pro-concept this ability is. Yes, CAP's team doesn't want to lose out on the free switch from a double KO due to Iron Barbs, but that won't happen if CAP is KO'd in the 'safest' way, by Earthquake. If the player is sensible, then Iron barbs actively encourages the opponent to plan how to remove CAP without losing their momentum, but by doing so they themselves make somewhat of a sacrifice. This ability with regards to CAP and Gyarados is NOT about the passive damage it brings, instead it's about filtering the moves used to KO CAP.

In short:
Kill CAP quickly and suffer Gyarados.
Kill CAP cautiously, suffer immediate damage (iron barbs, CAP's moves), but prevent Gyarados from setting up.

The concept is to basically try to prevent the opponent from Koing us. Iron Barbs is rather exploitable for the opponent because they can KO us, KO themselves from the residual damage, and then bring in something to stop Mega Gyarados from sweeping, or just plain out KO it. Sure, the opponent lost 1 Pokemon, no big deal, but we have just lost 2 Pokemon, so not only is the match now at a 4-5 (Atleast), but we have just lost a pretty powerful pokemon in the form of Mega Gyarados, also on Mega Gyarados teams the opponent just basically took out our core member. So really, its not going to help since it encourages the opponent to kill us. The concept is to try to prevent the opponent from KOing us in general, not to prevent KOing us through obvious plays. Gooey and Static I personally feel like would be better for us than Iron Barbs, Rough Skin, or Flame Body, since these two abilities don't do damage to our opponent, and with the reduced speed and for the case in static a chance to get parahaxed, we can get the opportunity to have Mega Gyarados set up on more pokes.

 

[CerberusSONE]

I really like the idea of Dry Skin. It doesn't necessarily give the CAP a spot on a Rain team, and it baits strong Fire moves from the opponent. If they knocked out CAP19, then the opponent must face Gyarados.

In short:
Kill CAP quickly and suffer Gyarados.
Kill CAP cautiously, suffer immediate damage (iron barbs, CAP's moves), but prevent Gyarados from setting up.

Wow, did we really pick a concept that became the two-pronged threat approach?

Also, if we want to remove things like Breloom and Amoongus from the game, we might want to look at things that eliminate their Spore. With that said, perhaps an ability like Overcoat that makes CAP 19 immune to the incoming Spore.

Overcoat sounds a bit situational. It doesn't really matter if we resist weather and Spores. In terms of weather, more specifically Sand, we'd be screwed by Excadrill, which is a situation we don't want to be in.
If we're hit by Spores, I'd rather have Guts on CAP than this.

 

[Burt Racecar]

Cerberus, what you quoted was just a simplification to Iron Barbs and how it could work for the concept.

I agree with you Pizza Man, I too would prefer Static over Iron Barbs, I was just a little concerned that the true application behind it wasn't understood. But in reality Static and Iron Barbs have the same benefit, albeit Static does it better, the paralysis is perfect for deterring contact moves - more so than iron barbs, further ensuring CAP is KO'd in that 'safe' way.