Regarding Ferroseed I have definitely seen an increase it makes Foongus practically useless it can switch into anything it has and start setting up hazards. Walls shell smashers, chinchou a surprisingly good amount of common stuff despite it's Fighting weakness for a defensive mon
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Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread!
- Thread starter Rowan
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GlassGlaceon
My heart has now been set on love
Ferroseed is definitely a fantastic mon in this meta, as it beats the meta's most annoying poke: Chinchou. Chinchou is literally the most annoying thing to face unless you consistently run ferroseed/foongus, as it fares fantatically against half the meta, has access to the holy grail water move scald, good bulk, and volt switch. I've also noticed that the 19 speed tier has also become a lot more prevalent, relevant, and important, as most 19 + speed attackers outrun the whole unboosted tier and nothing in the 19 speed tier is really bulky anymore b/c missy gone so it's a fantastic benchmark for some pretty cool, good and underrated mons such as aipom, Staryu, abra, meowth, and more. Speaking of abra, I'm loving it even more than in missy era as it doesn't have to waste a slot for shadow ball anymore, allowing it to run either protect or knock off, two very good moves under any situation. Protect helps scout potential scarfmons and reveal potential hidden powers and odd moves the opp may have while knock off allows abra to break down its counters with ease. I'm liking this new meta a lot, mostly because of the diversity though :0
chinchou I the most annoying Pokemon in the meta as you said it is very hard to stop it from grabbing momentum ground-types are very difficult to switch in because of its water Stab and this allows chinchou to volt switch freely unless you run a chinchou of your own (lol) or a Trace Porygon. Ferroseed and Foongus are good against its while they can't stop Volt Switch, they don't take much from it and can just set up hazards or Spore something so it makes up for the loss of momentum.
Also keep in mind Abra can also run Substitute on the last slot even on sash if you find the need to break it but yeah I have found that Shadow Ball isn't always needed in this meta
Drilbur is extremely amazing.
SD Drilbur not only spins hazards, it does a great job beating volt turn. 17 speed is a great speed tier esp with Missy gone, and Staryu is pretty uncommon for some reason. +2 Drilbur w/ Equake, the only thing I see switchin in are pure grass types. It's the best way to remove hazards despite it's lack of recovery.
SD Drilbur not only spins hazards, it does a great job beating volt turn. 17 speed is a great speed tier esp with Missy gone, and Staryu is pretty uncommon for some reason. +2 Drilbur w/ Equake, the only thing I see switchin in are pure grass types. It's the best way to remove hazards despite it's lack of recovery.
haven't had the time to really post that much lately so i'll just rattle off some of my thoughts about the meta now...
- as mentioned, abra is really fucking good. i know there has been a recent influx in sub lo abra, but honestly there is so much utility that sashbra provides that id almost use sash everytime. abra is usually more suited for a lategame roll anyways, and sash still has the power to do well in that roll, but sash guarantees that you will have the opportunity to clean up every single time. it's absolutely perfect for strong hitting bo teams looking for a revenge killer / lategame cleaner.
- speaking of 19 speeders like abra, that speed tier is so wide open right now. it's part of the reason why i love this meta so much (except for fucking fletch). ponyta, aipom, staryu, abra can all finally breath easy and function how they're supposed to with missy gone and it opens up so many venues for teams right now. ponyta, the best of the 19 speeders alongside abra imo, is the best wow user right now and sunny day is a great set to lure in chou and midgame wallbreak.
- also talked about a bit, ferroseed is a godsend right now. it's typing allows it to soak up hits form some of the best mons right now (abra, chou, shell smashers, magnemite) and it provides and impeccable amount of support. sr, spikes, leech seed, twave, and iron barbs all can prove incredibly useful to the point where u can just tailor make a ferro set for every team and support half your team while covering half the threats in the meta.
there's also some other specific sets right now that id love to talk about but are too good to give away before lc open ends :)
and like i said i love the meta,,,,,,,,,,,other than fletch :)
- as mentioned, abra is really fucking good. i know there has been a recent influx in sub lo abra, but honestly there is so much utility that sashbra provides that id almost use sash everytime. abra is usually more suited for a lategame roll anyways, and sash still has the power to do well in that roll, but sash guarantees that you will have the opportunity to clean up every single time. it's absolutely perfect for strong hitting bo teams looking for a revenge killer / lategame cleaner.
- speaking of 19 speeders like abra, that speed tier is so wide open right now. it's part of the reason why i love this meta so much (except for fucking fletch). ponyta, aipom, staryu, abra can all finally breath easy and function how they're supposed to with missy gone and it opens up so many venues for teams right now. ponyta, the best of the 19 speeders alongside abra imo, is the best wow user right now and sunny day is a great set to lure in chou and midgame wallbreak.
- also talked about a bit, ferroseed is a godsend right now. it's typing allows it to soak up hits form some of the best mons right now (abra, chou, shell smashers, magnemite) and it provides and impeccable amount of support. sr, spikes, leech seed, twave, and iron barbs all can prove incredibly useful to the point where u can just tailor make a ferro set for every team and support half your team while covering half the threats in the meta.
there's also some other specific sets right now that id love to talk about but are too good to give away before lc open ends :)
and like i said i love the meta,,,,,,,,,,,other than fletch :)
I think this month is going to have perhaps some of the most interesting usage statistics of a long time. Not only do we have basically an entire month without starting like the day after it was banned, but speculatively it seems LC is just about busier than ever. Most of the comments / anecdotal evidence seems to promote a lot of balance, which explains the resurgence in Sashbra (it basically affords you the option of being a bad player or a good player with a free mistake every game and still having a guaranteed fast hard move or two). The Chinchou popularity will keep Mienfoo in check for now (too much Scald) but I think it's just a matter of time before that guy surges to Gen V levels of overuse. Even with Fletchling, I just don't see Mienfoo ever going away.
(warning: kinda meta and borderline sappy) While I no longer play too much competitively, I'm really interested in the direction LC goes from here. I think LC is at a point now where you guys, the community, are going to define what Gen VI LC is... are we banhappy? I don't think we are yet, but the next round could push us there. Are we stuck in the past? I don't think we are, but a meta centered around Mienfoo and Chinchou certainly isn't groundbreaking. I think there's a lot of room, perhaps more than ever, for fresh talent and innovation in the "new" LC, so we'll see how it goes!
Also, IDK how this discussion thread isn't named "np: Fletch will never happen"... it just seems obvious. mods pls respond
(warning: kinda meta and borderline sappy) While I no longer play too much competitively, I'm really interested in the direction LC goes from here. I think LC is at a point now where you guys, the community, are going to define what Gen VI LC is... are we banhappy? I don't think we are yet, but the next round could push us there. Are we stuck in the past? I don't think we are, but a meta centered around Mienfoo and Chinchou certainly isn't groundbreaking. I think there's a lot of room, perhaps more than ever, for fresh talent and innovation in the "new" LC, so we'll see how it goes!
Also, IDK how this discussion thread isn't named "np: Fletch will never happen"... it just seems obvious. mods pls respond
Obligatory: ERMAGERD ITS RAY JAY!
Mienfoo is a god. Has crazy good stats, a killer ability, and a godlike movepool. Stone Edge or Acro Foo allows you to get around a lot of its main checks. Its by far the most powerful mon in LC right now imo, but you can deal with it, so nobody really cares. Reckless LO HJK shrekts worlds.
Sashbra... the god, the legend. As good as sashbra is, I personally like SubLO Abra more. I mean, I've been hyping it all gen, just because it 2HKO's just about everything in the meta but specially defensive Ferroseed and Houndour. SubLO also is a fun way to get around Pawniard imo.
Fuck Chinchou. Any mon who's best switchin is itself is a shit. End of story.
Fletchling causes Chinchou use imo, so fuck Fletching. In all seriousness, I'm happy we didn't ban Fletchling last test. Its a fun mon to use that requires good handling to really profit from it. My only concern with it is that it is the best revenge killer in the game outside of Sashbra, so it lessens the viability of a lot of cool sweeping mons all by itself.
Pawniard is seeing less use now for whatever reason, but there really isn't a reason for that to happen. Scarf Pawniard should drop obviously, but Eviolite and LO Pawn are amazing. The one thing that makes me sad about Pawniard is that it almost removes the viability of Sticky Web all by itself. People are too scared to run it because of the huge Defiant boost that Pawn can get, along with Sucker Punch. Superpowerdude has been running webs to great effect, but outside of him, very few competitive people are running Sticky Web, which is unfortunate, because in Little Cup, it probably has the most noticable effect.
I've really been enjoying watching this meta develop. There seem to be quite a few mons running around that weren't seen prior to this meta. Things I'd like to hype: SubLO Abra(not stopping the hype now), Spritzee(Where the heck did this mon's usage go, it used to be near the top. It has premier defensive stats), and Caleloin(This is a fantastic pivot ^-^).
Mienfoo is a god. Has crazy good stats, a killer ability, and a godlike movepool. Stone Edge or Acro Foo allows you to get around a lot of its main checks. Its by far the most powerful mon in LC right now imo, but you can deal with it, so nobody really cares. Reckless LO HJK shrekts worlds.
Sashbra... the god, the legend. As good as sashbra is, I personally like SubLO Abra more. I mean, I've been hyping it all gen, just because it 2HKO's just about everything in the meta but specially defensive Ferroseed and Houndour. SubLO also is a fun way to get around Pawniard imo.
Fuck Chinchou. Any mon who's best switchin is itself is a shit. End of story.
Fletchling causes Chinchou use imo, so fuck Fletching. In all seriousness, I'm happy we didn't ban Fletchling last test. Its a fun mon to use that requires good handling to really profit from it. My only concern with it is that it is the best revenge killer in the game outside of Sashbra, so it lessens the viability of a lot of cool sweeping mons all by itself.
Pawniard is seeing less use now for whatever reason, but there really isn't a reason for that to happen. Scarf Pawniard should drop obviously, but Eviolite and LO Pawn are amazing. The one thing that makes me sad about Pawniard is that it almost removes the viability of Sticky Web all by itself. People are too scared to run it because of the huge Defiant boost that Pawn can get, along with Sucker Punch. Superpowerdude has been running webs to great effect, but outside of him, very few competitive people are running Sticky Web, which is unfortunate, because in Little Cup, it probably has the most noticable effect.
I've really been enjoying watching this meta develop. There seem to be quite a few mons running around that weren't seen prior to this meta. Things I'd like to hype: SubLO Abra(not stopping the hype now), Spritzee(Where the heck did this mon's usage go, it used to be near the top. It has premier defensive stats), and Caleloin(This is a fantastic pivot ^-^).
I agree with Ray Jay with the amount of innovation that is possible now. I've stated it before, but the amount of scarfers that have suddenly become viable is outstanding, because you no longer need something that is able one-shot Misdreavus. We have Pokemon like Amaura and Snover, who's Ice-type STAB is actually pretty decent in the meta, and Snover especially can limit Ponyta's recovery, fuck with sun, and handle Water-types with Giga Drain. Gastly is probably one of the most used scarfers rn, because it's so powerful and gets Trick. I can see Frillish being a decent scarfer with Water-spout and trick, Cranidos is a nice scarfer that has a really useful Flying-resist so Fletchling can't fuck it over with Acrobatics. Mienfoo is a really underated scarfer, taking on a more offensive role with HJK, which is 10x better now that Missy isn't everywhere - the thing I like about Mienfoo is you don't need to play as safe, because you can switch it into hits that can't quite OHKO, and then take them out, switch out and get 33% health back - other scarfers can't afford to lose health so easily. Like Foo, Bunnelby is an amazing U-turn scarfer that likes the loss of Misdreavus, I expect it to have a large impact on this meta. Volt Switch users like Chou and Magnemite become nice scarfers again (though Magnemite was always good imo). But yeah there's loads of Pokemon that you can slap a scarf on and call it a revenge killer now.
As for sun: I feel like it's always been good, but I see it coming into the limelight, especially if lucy keeps spamming the fuck out of it. If you don't use Fletchling, Sun is actually really hard to prepare for, especially when you take into account Bellsprout's Sleep Powder. I've been using Rest-Talk Munchlax with Stall, or Fletchling with Offense, and either with Balance just to be able to beat it reliably. I think a Cloud Nine Lickitung set might work, but it loses Wish+Tect so it's probably outclassed by Munch. Hippopotas is a nice switch-in to Bellsprout, and it's a really strong Physical wall that can check a plethora of Physical threats, like Fletch, Bunnelby, Fighting-types, Drilbur. And as I mentioned before, Snover can do work vs. sun, especially if you get rocks up to mess with Vulpix.
I haven't seen much Timburr recently, I feel like everyone just runs Mienfoo. This is nice and all, but Shell Smashers are basically the best set-up sweepers in the game atm, so I expect Timburr and Croagunk to make a resurgence of usage with their prio. Mienfoo hype needs to die down, I know it's the best Pokemon in the meta right now, but if you find yourself building a team that gets wrecked by Omanyte or Binacle or Shellder, which often happens, try out Timburr + Gunk.
And as people say, fuck Chinchou. Like seriously it causes so many 50/50s with it's Water STAB vs. Volt Switch, it's an amazing momentum grabber, probably the best pivot in the game (even better than Mienfoo imo, I'm serious). Chinchou is the best counter to itself as well which is annoying as fuck, which just promotes its own usage. I wouldn't be surprised If Chinchou ends up the no.1 most used Pokemon by the time the next suspect comes along. Best other switch-in is Goldeen, which can do some work, but hates Scald-burns which is annoying. Basically if there's no Ground-type or Lightningrod/Volt Absorb Pokemon, Chinchou is a fantastic momentum gainer, and it can wear down opposing Chinchou with HP Grass/Ground and threaten Ground-types with Scald/Hydro Pump, making it a large risk switching them in.
On the topic of Chinchou counters, why is no-one using Lileep - It's got a great typing, can take on all Water-types, can use its massive bulk to check a load of Offensive Pokemon like Fletch, Smashers, Carvanha, Drilbur, Abra, Ponyta, Zigzagoon. Unlike other Rock-types it doesn't get wrecked by Diglett which makes it one of the best counters to ZigDig or Bunnelby+Diglett.
Also, great as ever to see a Ray Jay post, you don't play LC anymore, but you still make the most relevant and insightful posts.
As for sun: I feel like it's always been good, but I see it coming into the limelight, especially if lucy keeps spamming the fuck out of it. If you don't use Fletchling, Sun is actually really hard to prepare for, especially when you take into account Bellsprout's Sleep Powder. I've been using Rest-Talk Munchlax with Stall, or Fletchling with Offense, and either with Balance just to be able to beat it reliably. I think a Cloud Nine Lickitung set might work, but it loses Wish+Tect so it's probably outclassed by Munch. Hippopotas is a nice switch-in to Bellsprout, and it's a really strong Physical wall that can check a plethora of Physical threats, like Fletch, Bunnelby, Fighting-types, Drilbur. And as I mentioned before, Snover can do work vs. sun, especially if you get rocks up to mess with Vulpix.
I haven't seen much Timburr recently, I feel like everyone just runs Mienfoo. This is nice and all, but Shell Smashers are basically the best set-up sweepers in the game atm, so I expect Timburr and Croagunk to make a resurgence of usage with their prio. Mienfoo hype needs to die down, I know it's the best Pokemon in the meta right now, but if you find yourself building a team that gets wrecked by Omanyte or Binacle or Shellder, which often happens, try out Timburr + Gunk.
And as people say, fuck Chinchou. Like seriously it causes so many 50/50s with it's Water STAB vs. Volt Switch, it's an amazing momentum grabber, probably the best pivot in the game (even better than Mienfoo imo, I'm serious). Chinchou is the best counter to itself as well which is annoying as fuck, which just promotes its own usage. I wouldn't be surprised If Chinchou ends up the no.1 most used Pokemon by the time the next suspect comes along. Best other switch-in is Goldeen, which can do some work, but hates Scald-burns which is annoying. Basically if there's no Ground-type or Lightningrod/Volt Absorb Pokemon, Chinchou is a fantastic momentum gainer, and it can wear down opposing Chinchou with HP Grass/Ground and threaten Ground-types with Scald/Hydro Pump, making it a large risk switching them in.
On the topic of Chinchou counters, why is no-one using Lileep - It's got a great typing, can take on all Water-types, can use its massive bulk to check a load of Offensive Pokemon like Fletch, Smashers, Carvanha, Drilbur, Abra, Ponyta, Zigzagoon. Unlike other Rock-types it doesn't get wrecked by Diglett which makes it one of the best counters to ZigDig or Bunnelby+Diglett.
Also, great as ever to see a Ray Jay post, you don't play LC anymore, but you still make the most relevant and insightful posts.
GlassGlaceon
My heart has now been set on love
ok rowan you proposed the same q i had at the beginning of the XY LC Meta, and I've quickly figured out even with all of these mostly helpful bans why lileep's usage has dropped since BW2. Now I myself love lileep, and I continue to use the cute plant mon to this day, but a bunch of things have hindered it as a consistent wall. c: and ive separated it into two factors, with the biggest being:
No More Permanent Sand: Perma-Sand was definitely lileep's biggest boon and it's been stripped away. For those who don't know/aren't aware why this is so big, Sand increses the SDef of Rock types by 1.5, which essentially gave Lileep another Eviolite boost, making it great for sand teams against powerful special attackers like Misdreavus and Specially Based MixKrow amongst other things. Lileep no longer has permanent sand, and the requirement of a teamslot to be a fantastic wall for like 4 turns isn't really worth it. It also significantly decreases its stalling abilities because a combination of sand boost+residual sand+recover+toxic is not possible any more so it isn't as easy to stall out some mons it used to be able to.
Pawn's usage spike/Fighting Types have been given a chance to breathe with both krow and missy's banning: This is an undeniable fact: Fighters are better than they ever were. Timburr, Mienfoo, Riolu, and Gunk are all fantastic in this meta and that really constricts lileep. Chinchou is commonly paired with fighters as it makes a fantastic pivot so it just volt switches out on the lkileep switch in and is immediately put into an unfavorable matchup in which: Mienfoo can Knock Off, U-Turn, Swords Dance, or HJK; Gunk can NP, Bulk Up, Knock Off, or Drain Punch. Riolu can SD, or Copycat volt switch on a predicted switch out of the situation, and Timburr can Bulk Up, Knock off, or drain punch. This wears down lileep very quickly, especially paired with hazards, and i find lileep finds itself in a bunch of unfavorable matchups. Oh also screw pawn it gets a free SD and then ugh ;;;;
Will write the rest when im back but ya i rly like lileep. Just saying why its usage has gone down the crapper ;;;;
#bringitback
I understand that Pawniard and Sand are massive factors as to why Lileep isn't as good as it was in BW, but don't forget, Lileep was probably one of, if the not the best, Defensive Pokemon in the BW2 metagame (Fighting-types were still pretty fucking good in BW btw). I'm not saying Lileep will ever get up to the A+ rank that it was, I just think that in this meta, especially one where people are hyping up Diglett + Normal/Flying types, that Lileep actually has a pretty decent niche as a Defensive mon to wreck these cores, whilst still being able to check a few other things.
Funny you guys mentioned Lileep because I was considering it on a team that had problems with Chinchou + Fletchling
as others have said Chinchou is the most annoying Pokemon to deal with. It's just so good offensively and Defensively, walls Fletch one of the most relevant Pokemon in the tier, it makes Opposing Magnemite completely useless and it is so good at grabbing momentum with Volt Switch because Pokemon immune to Volt Switch are weak to Scald and there are no relevant Ground / water Type Pokemon if any. I feel like any team made without having a Trace Porygon or a Chinchou of your own is going to at least find Chinchou annoying because stopping it from pivoting is practically impossible which is why I believe Rowan is right when he says it's a better Pivot than foo. Also Staryu would be expected to rise since it hits 19 Speed and can't be spin blocked by Missy anymore and Chinchou just wrecks it.
Also going back to Lileep, although there is no perms sand it doesn't hamper Lileep to much. Maybe with Missy around it would because it would struggle to wall Missy then but it's still hella bulky and Soaking damage while Toxicing stuff and recovering is always great.
as others have said Chinchou is the most annoying Pokemon to deal with. It's just so good offensively and Defensively, walls Fletch one of the most relevant Pokemon in the tier, it makes Opposing Magnemite completely useless and it is so good at grabbing momentum with Volt Switch because Pokemon immune to Volt Switch are weak to Scald and there are no relevant Ground / water Type Pokemon if any. I feel like any team made without having a Trace Porygon or a Chinchou of your own is going to at least find Chinchou annoying because stopping it from pivoting is practically impossible which is why I believe Rowan is right when he says it's a better Pivot than foo. Also Staryu would be expected to rise since it hits 19 Speed and can't be spin blocked by Missy anymore and Chinchou just wrecks it.
Also going back to Lileep, although there is no perms sand it doesn't hamper Lileep to much. Maybe with Missy around it would because it would struggle to wall Missy then but it's still hella bulky and Soaking damage while Toxicing stuff and recovering is always great.
I'm relatively new to competitive battling in general as well as LC. I built my first other team the other day and am sure it is not very good. It's a stall team utilizing hippotas and lileep and honestly it has been really strong (lileep that is). I am losing a lot of games because of lack of metagame knowledge etc but lileep has been so strong. I ham running it as a special wall in sand and it's bulk is good enough to tank most neutral or resistant hits whether physical or special even outside of sand. I'm running a toxic giga drain recover infestation set and it's probably because I'm playing bad players low on the ladder but if you can get an infestation on something lilly walls you can rack up a lot of damage with sandstorm + toxic. Like others it makes a great check to fletchling (although with ancient power it doesn't really threaten it) and chinchou with storm drain. You do need a chekc to strong fighting types though. I've been using spritzee personally because of wish pass and aromatherapy. Lileep is also pretty nice answer to foongus' spore although it can't do anything back so you have to be clever with predictions otherwise it can go very wrong.
Lileep may appear good at first, but its lackluster typing is the death of it. Not only is it weak to the dominant fighting types, but also weak to the ever present u-turn and struggles dealing with one of the most popular special attackers in magnemite. But the worst part is that is has no good resistances leaving it being easy to worn down and not a defensive threat.
I think that Lileep's niche isn't only that it deals with Chinchou but it can also wall a lot of stuff thanks to its 66/77/87 bulk and its Rock/Grass typing with Storm Drain which allow it to a lot of Pokémon like Chinchou, Abra, Staryu, Carvanha etc.. But Lileep has two problems, first is the lack of an offensive presence (61 SAtk is actually good but the EVs are usually used on HP and defenses) unless Storm Drain got activated, the second one is its weakness to the common Fighting- and Steel-types which makes it a great setup bait for Pokémon like Swords Dance Pawniard and Dragon Dance Scraggy. Some people tend to use Sand support to boost its SDef and also do some passive damage to the opponent, but the fact that sand isn't permanent anymore made it less reliable as a wall. Another problem is that Lileep has a sligh 4MSS, it wants to run Earth Power as a fourth moveslot to deal with Magnemite, Toxic to do some damage while stalling with Recover, and Ancientpower to deal with Fletchling that can use it as a set up bait instead.
Speaking of Chinchou I do find that it's problematic and like Rowan said it grabs the momentum rather easily which creates a lot of annoying mind games which can be really unhealthy. Chinchou has a lot of set options to run: Choice Scarf, Bulky attacker w/ Berry Juice or Eviolite, RestTalk.. It also has great support moves in Heal Bell and Thunder Wave, but to be honest it does have some cool counters and checks which isn't just Lileep which are mainly:
-Chinchou itself: Yes this is bad and countering a Pokémon with the same Pokémon is totally unhealthy as it'll just raise its usage but Chinchou can't do much damage to other Chinchous.
-Bulky Grass-types like Foongus, Ferroseed and even Snover can wall it really hard (unless it runs HP Fire or Soak but those are really rare).
-Special walls like Porygon (Which can copy Volt Absorb with Trace making Electric-type attacks useless), Munchlax and Lickitung are also great counters.
-Diglett: Yeah this isn't really the best counter but it's the easiest way to take Chinchou down, switch into Volt Switch or another Electric-type move, trap it and straight outspeed and OHKO with Earthquake (Unless it's the physically defensive set).
Speaking of Chinchou I do find that it's problematic and like Rowan said it grabs the momentum rather easily which creates a lot of annoying mind games which can be really unhealthy. Chinchou has a lot of set options to run: Choice Scarf, Bulky attacker w/ Berry Juice or Eviolite, RestTalk.. It also has great support moves in Heal Bell and Thunder Wave, but to be honest it does have some cool counters and checks which isn't just Lileep which are mainly:
-Chinchou itself: Yes this is bad and countering a Pokémon with the same Pokémon is totally unhealthy as it'll just raise its usage but Chinchou can't do much damage to other Chinchous.
-Bulky Grass-types like Foongus, Ferroseed and even Snover can wall it really hard (unless it runs HP Fire or Soak but those are really rare).
-Special walls like Porygon (Which can copy Volt Absorb with Trace making Electric-type attacks useless), Munchlax and Lickitung are also great counters.
-Diglett: Yeah this isn't really the best counter but it's the easiest way to take Chinchou down, switch into Volt Switch or another Electric-type move, trap it and straight outspeed and OHKO with Earthquake (Unless it's the physically defensive set).
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Yagura Lileep doesn't really want to run Earth Power to beat Chinchou as it doesn't get Stab and Giga Drain deals with Chinchou anyway. Earth Power would be interesting to deal with Magnemite and give it something to hit Pawnaird though and 4mss is present but if you have another Stealth Rocket on your team you can free up a slot
Oh sorry, wanted to say Magnemite thanks for pointing that out.
And what about Chinchou on teams with Drilbur and Diglett that don't need Volt Absorb and opt for Water Absorb? Munchlax and Lickitung are still viable, but all three will still lose any potential momentum in the case of Volt Switching out to something that that checks them/takes advantage of weaknesses.
Usually when we talk about counters of Pokémon with Volt Switch/U-turn we avoid the fact that they can use Volt Switch and escape. And trust me you'll rarely see Water Absorb, it has 13.117% usage on the ladder and why would you use an ability to be immune to a not very effective type when you can use one that grants you an immunity to a type that does neutral damage? Yes, some people tend to use it for some surprise factor but it's gimmicky. So when we speak about counters of VoltTurn Pokémon we consider it as a 1v1 because the moves mentioned before makes all counters (except Ground-types and Pokémon with Electric-type immunity thanks to an ability that are immune to Volt Switch).
Goddess Briyella
Banned deucer.
Lileep's main problem, from what I've seen throughout BW and XY, is that it's pretty much bait for Fighting-types, and there's a Fighting-type on almost every team. Scraggy can switch in and set up on it, and Mienfoo can come in and threaten it with Drain Punch, while also getting a super effective hit on it with U-turn or getting switch advantage if Lileep switches out to avoid Drain Punch or High Jump Kick.
And yea, switching Lileep into Chinchou is not a super safe play, because if it uses Volt Switch as Lileep switches into the battlefield, in comes the Fighting-type and Lileep becomes immediately pressured.
Lileep was able to function outside of sand teams because while it was bait for fighting types, less use of knock off meant drain punches don't entirely cripple it, meaning it can take around 40/50%, toxic the fighting type (assuming mienfoo because timburr is a counter but overall easier to deal with unless you let it bu too much) and the lack of clerics outside of chou, which give lileep momentum, made it function as an awesome pivot. Toxic is for late game purposes with mienfoo and will make an impact if they can't drain punch for consistently good damage. Also checks missy/krow and who doesn't like an sr setter with good switch in opportunities.
It's a shame Lileep has that stat spread to go with its typing, because its typing would be awesome for a tank. No real weaknesses balancing out no real resistances mean it basically could just take hits from everything and hit hard in return until it goes down inevitably. But it looks more designed for a wall and because of its lack of resistances it just doesn't really match well against anything significant. If only rock resisted rock, then it could counter Tirt ;-;
Its stats are awesome and it does counter tirt ._. Also it hits decently hard especially when it gets storm drain boost
Am I the only one who finds it way to easy to win with Abra now?
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