[17:57]
Thugly Duckling: In
my post, i use the "definition" of ubers just as a starting argument, but i feel all other points are solid.
[17:58]
Minority Suspect: okay
[17:58]
Minority Suspect: you can't use that defintion as the basis of anything though
[17:58]
Minority Suspect: because it is a fallicy
[18:00]
Thugly Duckling: btw, ubers cant be defined as "the most inclusive of Smogon's tiers, allowing the use of any Pokémon species EXCEPT Mega-Gengar" because then, the tier wouldnt be the "Uber" tier. The tier allowing the Gengarite would be the true "Uber" tier.
[18:00]
Minority Suspect: uh ducky
[18:00]
Minority Suspect: that definition is the product of the Ubers tier
[18:00]
Thugly Duckling: yo
[18:00]
Minority Suspect: it does not define the Ubers tier
[18:01]
Minority Suspect: for example
[18:01]
Minority Suspect: I could define the US senate as having 100 seats
[18:01]
Thugly Duckling: ok
[18:01]
Minority Suspect: but what if we got a 51st state
[18:01]
Minority Suspect: then we would need 102
[18:01]
Minority Suspect: the definition created after the senate existed cannot control it
[18:01]
Thugly Duckling: a defintion must be current
[18:02]
Minority Suspect: the definition was simply based on what was at the time
[18:02]
Thugly Duckling: meaning the "definition" of ubers must be current as well
[18:02]
Minority Suspect: the point is that Ubers came before the definition
[18:03]
Minority Suspect: thus the definition does not truely define the tier
[18:03]
Thugly Duckling: they came at the same time didnt they?
[18:03]
Minority Suspect: no
[18:04]
Minority Suspect: that is really a definition anyways
[18:04]
Minority Suspect: its more like
[18:04]
Minority Suspect: a description of the Ubers tier
[18:04]
Minority Suspect: as it is right now
[18:04]
Thugly Duckling: gotcha
[18:07]
Thugly Duckling: This is like the article V of the U.S constitution
[18:07]
Minority Suspect: kinda
[18:07]
Thugly Duckling: wait, what is the basis of why the Uber tier was founded and is it legitimate?
[18:07]
Minority Suspect: its was founded as a banlist for OU
[18:08]
Minority Suspect: nothing more at the time
[18:08]
Minority Suspect: but people started to play it
[18:08]
Minority Suspect: and then it became a competitive metagame
[18:08]
Thugly Duckling: so say "article V" allows the uber tier to change its current state out of its legitimacy
[18:09]
Minority Suspect: ban uncompetitive stuff is not illegitamate
[18:09]
Minority Suspect: thats been around since Ubers was competitive
[18:10]
Thugly Duckling: but is it
really legitimate and was it ORIGINALLY allowed to change itself as the PEOPLE and it changed
[18:10]
Minority Suspect: before Ubers was competitive, banning anything from it would make no diffrence
[18:10]
Minority Suspect: because nobody played it
[18:11]
Minority Suspect: so there would be no inital rule that Ubers is defined as a meta where all mons have to be legal
[18:11]
Minority Suspect: rules only exist because you need them, and Ubers needed no such rule
[18:12]
Thugly Duckling: however, you see now it does make a difference. And all mons
should be allowed but only to satisfy the people
[18:12]
Minority Suspect: well
[18:12]
Minority Suspect: I disagree
[18:12]
Minority Suspect: what if gf
[18:12]
Minority Suspect: came out with a mon
[18:12]
Minority Suspect: that auto won every game
[18:12]
Minority Suspect: it would have to be banned
[18:12]
Minority Suspect: if Ubers was to be played
[18:13]
Thugly Duckling: Well no shit it would have to be banned because it has a justified reason. Nothing justifies the banning of STag
[18:14]
Minority Suspect: we're not talking about tag, we are talking about if banning a mon is legitamate for the tier
[18:14]
Minority Suspect: you agree that it is legitimate
[18:14]
Thugly Duckling: I do not agree with a mon being banned from ubers.
[18:14]
Minority Suspect: but you just said that an auto win mon would have to be banned...
[18:15]
Thugly Duckling: because then "Ubers" wouldnt be ubers. there would be a tier higher than it.
[18:15]
Minority Suspect: there already is a tier higher than it
[18:15]
Thugly Duckling: The justified reason for the "auto-win" pokemon is that it can be proven uncompetitive by its virtue to allow completely unskilled players to beat skilled players.
[18:16]
Minority Suspect: look
[18:16]
Minority Suspect: either you believe no mon should ever be banned from Ubers
[18:16]
Minority Suspect: or you believe that banning a mon from Ubers is acceptable
[18:17]
Thugly Duckling: You see the "auto win" mon isnt just a pokemon, its a free win. And its traits as a free win overshadow its traits as a pokemon.
[18:18]
Thugly Duckling: "overshadow" - pun unintended lol
[18:18]
Minority Suspect: selective framing in argument
[18:18]
Minority Suspect: is one of the most destructive things in philosophy
[18:20]
Thugly Duckling: hmmm
[18:20]
Minority Suspect: you don't need to try so hard to prove that Gar shouldn't be banned
[18:20]
Minority Suspect: the burden of proof lies on the pro-ban side
[18:20]
Minority Suspect: bye