Gen 6 The XY Ubers Viability Ranking Thread [Read Post #1000]

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I'd go far as moving Gastro up to B-, it can check eleceus, blaziken, kyogre, xern, and waterceus. These are all very popular and prominent threats that has very little overlap in terms of checking, yet gastro manages to do it. It's a good niche mon that deserves more usage. It's an excellent mon to use on stall teams.

e: Magcargo The fact that pokemon has to give up coverage just to hit scizor only shows how good it is. Scizor is a jack of trades, and master of none. Don't expect it to do much but it'll do what it needs to. It should remain in A-, maybe B+ at lowest.
 
CB scizor doesn't care about the hp fire on Xerneas (or even weakened Mgar). I have to admit, Scizor takes a lot of skill and prediction to use effectively, but still its usefulness is unique and just fills many holes in a team.
 

Minority

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I hear a lot of the "Scizor sucks" and it's true to some extent, but it really shouldn't be lower than A-. Sure it can't check EKiller if it has the right coverage, but this applies to most EKiller checks anyways, Scizor also does it's job against Xern regardless and you can also run SpD spread to escape HP Fire from stuff like Gengar. Sure it tends to suck on HO / Stall but it does well on balance and bulky offense.
 
Gastrodon: C- --> C+

A very specialized Pokemon that performs its role excellently. Outside of checking all viable Kyogre variants, it can be relied upon to emergency-stop CM Arceus, notably checking Electric Arceus rather well. Also, it isn't huge Gengar bait unlike many other stallmons, and can actually beat Mega Blaziken 1v1. Instrumental mon on some stall builds, really, as it's the only thing that can stop something like Specs or CM RestTalk Kyogre from ravaging these teams. No B-rank because it simply does not possess "large offensive or defensive capability", just a very usable niche; however, being grouped with the likes of Abomasnow is completely unfair and C+ is a far more accurate representation of its abilities imo.
Bringing this up from a few pages back since Gastrodon is being discussed again. C+ is reasonable; maybe B- if only because it requires significantly less support than other C+ mons... but at any rate, slugger needs to get out of C-. Agreeing with Forretress for C+ as well; the loss of Steel's resistances to Dark and Ghost coupled with a bad secondary typing relative to its fellow Spikers just seals it.

A few other mons look kinda out of place; I'm going to make 2 other noms that should be fairly straightforward:

Deoxys-D (B --> C+)
Same general premise as Forretress. Its only viable set is Recover/Toxic/Knock Off/Taunt|Spikes. Aside from being completely unviable on offense, it faces massive competition from alternative Spikers/Stalltwo depending on the choice of 4th move. Mono Psychic typing isn't doing it any favors defensively. A dedicated hazard lead is markedly inferior to Deo-S/A in the same role.

Whimsicott (B --> C+)
I used to hype this up some, but objectively it's really just an elevated gimmick due to that new Fairy sub-typing, which lets it check Zekrom in the interim and Encore opponents into Dragon-type moves. It might have a wealth of support moves, but it's quite hard to justify putting this on a serious build as it's incredibly frail (attacks like a neutral Judgment just wreck it) and has effectively 0 actual offensive capability. Relatively speaking, quite self-explanatory given the tier placements of other Pokemon.
 
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Okay, I've been ignoring this thread for some time because I was expecting it to have to be completely revamped from potentially soon to come meta shifts. However, those are still actually a fair ways away and there's a lot of things that bother me about this list. I'm just going to suggest a bunch of changes and may or may not provide justification. I might not argue them out much either, depends how much I care about it.

Mewtwo drop to A+ - Mewtwo's a great mon and all but it's not really that splashable and I don't see why it should be favored anymore than other hot offensive threats like Mega Blaze and Ekiller.

Darkrai to B+ - It's not a bad mon it just faces massive competition from Ygod and doesn't really give a major role now that Ghost Arceus isn't running the meta anymore.

Deo A to B and Deo S to B- - I disagree with many that Spikes Offense is dead but it's very much a limited playstyle. Deo A is still fucking Deo A, though, and does more than Spike stack so a higher level sounds fair.

Dialga to A+ - This mon is so amazing and is probably the only good mon that you can use on an offensive oriented team to not be weak to electric arceus.

Ho-Oh to A- or B+ - idc how good Ho-Oh is, it's utter cancer in teambuilder and probably one of the most limiting fucking things that you could ever add to a team short of gimmicks and those obscure niche mons. Keep in mind this list is from a teambuilding perspective so that's why I'm being so harsh on it in that regards.

Keys to A+ - This mon is still amazing and ridiculously splashable. blah blah blah, you need strong physical attacker but you'd have that anyways so that's not even a problem. It's also probably the only big spikes user in the meta that's good because of the ease in which it finds free turns and is quite a threat to teams through them.

Zekrom to A- or B+ - Meta's changed. Scarf Zekrom is ridiculously inconsistent and is a very all or nothing mon. The none-choice sets are cool for stall breaking, tho.

Arceus Electric to A - Such a hard mon to check on offensive teams and it gives you quite a few hard to find advantages defensively such as checking ygod and ho-oh. Not being a good wisp user kinda hurts it tho.

Gothitelle to S

Arceus Fairy to A- - This is the best Ygod check around and that's not something to be looking down on. It fits on a lot of builds since it doesn't really *need* pursuit support and it covers a lot of things while being scary itself.

Arceus Ground to B - It's not a bad mon, it's just that using any ground-type that isn't lando or gdon indirectly limits your building options. You now have to use something else to fill the SR role and most of the none-ground type SR users share common weaknesses like Kyogre and Earthquake. You also miss out on the flying immunity Lando brings and have already swallowed up your Arceus forme with something that can't Wisp or Espeed Xern. Checking Zekrom isn't really a big defensive niche.

Zong to C+ - A bad xern check and a bad SR setter, you should probably rebuild your team if you are using this.

Deo-D to C+

Forry to C - The meta is too shallow in the hazards game right now for this to be any good

Whims to B- - It just looks kidna odd man out in the B rank and it's not the most flexible mon in teambuilder. I've seen some really good builds with it tho so I don't want to put it in C+ but it's also not the easiest mon to build around so it's maybe best to go there.

Arceus Steel to C

Kyurem-W to C - This is probably only good if you are 100% sure the other guy is bringing stall.

Scolipede to B - See Deoxys A/S

Charizard to B - Can we stop underrating these guys? Both formes are really good on the right builds. I'll talk B- but come on not C+

Diancie to B- - It's a pretty limited mon in teambuilder, mostly cause of Keys imo, but it's also got a lot of really good things going for it that can let you really innovate.

Tina A to C

Arc fire to C - About as viable as Dragonceus, imo.

Webs setters to B+ - I strongly disagree with webs being a bad playstyle and I think if, anything, it's even better in a thread like this because it's kidna a teambuilder's dream. The speed control just opens up sooo many new options but that simply wouldn't work otherwise. There's no reason these guys should be in B. I also disagree that Shuckle outclasses. Smeargle isn't Keys fodder which is quite big and the inconsistencies it has are mostly wiped out by running the good Nuzzle set and a complete non-issue if you have a teammate like Genesect.

Abomasnow to off the map - I don't think this is viable, wasn't it rejected for an analysis?
 
Rhyperior for C+

EDIT: Also Rhydon for C+, for exactly the same reasons

I've used Rhyperior to great success on the ladder, mostly as a Ho-oh/Zekrom check.

Sample set:

Rhyperior @ Leftovers
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Rest/Toxic
- Rock Blast
- Earthquake

In addition to acting as a team's Stealth Rock setter, it can switch into almost any Ho-oh set. (It does take around 40% from banded Earthquake, but with Ho-oh locked onto a ground move the Rhyperior user can easily switch/setup rocks/kill Ho-oh.) Even if it gets burned by sacred fire, Rock Blast still does plenty to Ho-oh, and on a stall team it can usually be healed by a cleric. In a pinch, it can also wear down Ekiller without earthquake. I personally use rest with cleric support on a full stall team, but Toxic can also be used in exchange for longevity.

However, there are some clear disadvantages to Rhyperior. Groudon (and to a lesser extent, Kyogre) can switch in on it and force it out, requiring the team to carry checks for these two threats. Its special bulk is also somewhat poor.

In effect, I'd consider Rhyperior to be a slightly worse form of Arceus-Rock. Rock Arceus carries the same advantages (checking Ho-Oh) while being weak to the same switch-ins (Groudon, Kyogre, etc). Rhyperior's advantage is that it doesn't take up an Arceus slot, freeing up the team to use another form of Arceus.

EDIT: MM2 mentioned Eviolite Rhydon in PS chat, for taking random draco meteors, so here are some calcs.

4 SpA Life Orb Teravolt Zekrom Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rhyperior: 344-407 (79.2 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 SpA Life Orb Teravolt Zekrom Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 266-316 (64.2 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


8 Atk Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zekrom: 248-294 (72.7 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
8 Atk Rhydon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zekrom: 234-276 (68.6 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Rhydon takes Draco Meteors a bit better, but not by a great amount -- it doesn't OHKO either after Stealth rock, and with Leftovers Rhyperior is much easier to keep at high health. Neither of them can OHKO in return, even after rocks.

_____


252+ Atk Choice Band Ho-Oh Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 178-210 (41.1 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Ho-Oh Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 168-198 (40.6 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Accounting for leftovers, Rhyperior takes less damage from a banded Ho-oh's Earthquake. More importantly, though, Leftovers make Sacred Fire burns less crippling.

____

Honestly there isn't a huge difference between Rhydon and Rhyperior with regard to the threats that they can check. They should still be added to the viability list, though -- they have a niche that they carry out fairly well (which is more than what Psychic Arceus, which is also in C+, can say).
 
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Fireburn

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I'll make a proper response to Melee Mewtwo later today but you're being way too harsh on Ho-Oh. Again. The only thing that's really limiting about Ho-Oh is that it needs Defog/Spin support but it fits on so many archetypes (stall, balance, sun offense, even sand offense with Drill) and is still such a good mon in the metagame that it hardly matters. I think A is just fine for it, again needing Defog/Spin support is the reason why Ho-Oh isn't S rank, not why it isn't A rank, and it really isn't THAT hard to put it on a team.
 
Anything that I don't mention explicitly is fine with me.

Darkrai to B+ - It's not a bad mon it just faces massive competition from Ygod and doesn't really give a major role now that Ghost Arceus isn't running the meta anymore.
Darkrai is a staple on offense/HO for a reason. The capability to check any cm arc or neutering something to sleep is good enough for A- IMO.
Keys to A+ - This mon is still amazing and ridiculously splashable. blah blah blah, you need strong physical attacker but you'd have that anyways so that's not even a problem. It's also probably the only big spikes user in the meta that's good because of the ease in which it finds free turns and is quite a threat to teams through them.
I love keys but it's just not A+ material. It's forced to use HB over Toxic cuz of goth meta, so that hurts its viability a bit.
Zong to C+ - A bad xern check and a bad SR setter, you should probably rebuild your team if you are using this.
I think that Zong is so bad that it should be D. C+ is being very generous.
Whims to B- - It just looks kidna odd man out in the B rank and it's not the most flexible mon in teambuilder. I've seen some really good builds with it tho so I don't want to put it in C+ but it's also not the easiest mon to build around so it's maybe best to go there.
see malefic's post.
Scolipede to B - See Deoxys A/S
Scolipede is not that good. Deo-s being ranked lower than scolipede is preposterous.
Charizard to B - Can we stop underrating these guys? Both formes are really good on the right builds. I'll talk B- but come on not C+
Is this a running joke now? This is third time or something that you've adamantly claim that charizard is "good" without providing any proof as such or any reason.
Diancie to B- - It's a pretty limited mon in teambuilder, mostly cause of Keys imo, but it's also got a lot of really good things going for it that can let you really innovate.
Not really, C+ is perfect for it.
Webs setters to B+ - I strongly disagree with webs being a bad playstyle and I think if, anything, it's even better in a thread like this because it's kidna a teambuilder's dream. The speed control just opens up sooo many new options but that simply wouldn't work otherwise. There's no reason these guys should be in B. I also disagree that Shuckle outclasses. Smeargle isn't Keys fodder which is quite big and the inconsistencies it has are mostly wiped out by running the good Nuzzle set and a complete non-issue if you have a teammate like Genesect.
Lol
 
I'll make a proper response to Melee Mewtwo later today but you're being way too harsh on Ho-Oh. Again. The only thing that's really limiting about Ho-Oh is that it needs Defog/Spin support but it fits on so many archetypes (stall, balance, sun offense, even sand offense with Drill) and is still such a good mon in the metagame that it hardly matters. I think A is just fine for it, again needing Defog/Spin support is the reason why Ho-Oh isn't S rank, not why it isn't A rank, and it really isn't THAT hard to put it on a team.
I agree -- Ho-oh belongs in A. If rocks aren't up, it's extremely difficult to wear down -- Groudon and Landorus-T can't switch in safely for fear of being burned. A bulky set can generally win one-on-one with (or cripple and then switch out on) pretty large portion of the metagame.

Also if Mega Gengar gets banned, it'll be easier to use support Arceus, hence safer Defog.
 
I think not outright losing to every Goth set through HB is a point in Keys favor rather than something that hurts it. The lack of Toxic is disappointing but the majority of Keys ability to punish and threaten comes from Spikes and Twave, imo, which is why HB is a viable option to begin with. Honestly, the only thing really wrong with keys from a teambuilding perspective is that it doesn't really jive well with Defog which means you'll probably be weak to keys yourself. (tbh, keys has a lot of similarities with Ekiller as far as teambuilding goes)

Scolipede has toxic spikes which is a significant niche over Deo S as having your hazards defoged away is much less bothersome. It also has that pin missile to anti lead or endeavor to just be annoying. Deo S's effectiveness is much more reliant on the layers it sets staying up. (which means more work on the team)

No mon should be in D rank and have an analysis unless it's forced to have one. I don't think Bronzong is quite at that level of unviable, although I won't complain about it dropping lower in C.

There's a very limited number of Defog / Rapid Spin users and they all imply further support themselves because Ho-Oh transforms games (and thus your teambuilding) into giant crapshoot of an SR war. Excadrill p much implies TTar which means you've got a massive Kyogre weakness to work with and only 3 slots left. Defog Arceus need a cleric cause everything runs Toxic and you are banking on it to remove SR, oh and there's that tag weakness. Cloyster is cool but adds absolutely nothing to your team besides spinning and needs to be on a team that's offensive enough to not ask for that more than once. Tina-o has a host of weaknesses that has hurt its viability this gen and won't be Defogging on Dialga. Scizor eats up your mega slot, loses to Dialga Fire Blast, and can't really be used to pursuit Gar anymore since dbond means you lose your anti SR measure. Plus, it's not terribly good at finding free turns regularly enough to fight off SR in the first place. Basically, the difference between a non-Ho-Oh team with anti-hazard support and one with it is that the Ho-Oh team is utterly reliant on that support and needs to give support FOR THE SUPPORT so that it doesn't fail during a game.

btw, i just noticed I said webs setters shouldn't be in B. That was a typo and I meant C. I'll take anywhere in B at this point since i recognize I'm in the minority in my perspective on it.
 
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Just move Ekiller to S-rank while you are at it, it's really good in the current meta, being almost a necessity on most (hyper) offense etc. By now, we all know this discussion too well, there has been many more than good-arguments during the course of this thread that are still valid. I doubt there is one single top player that would argue against this, idk how you just bypassed mentioning this mm2 but it's really time for it to move up.
 

Fireburn

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There's a very limited number of Defog / Rapid Spin users and they all imply further support themselves because Ho-Oh transforms games (and thus your teambuilding) into giant crapshoot of an SR war. Excadrill p much implies TTar which means you've got a massive Kyogre weakness to work with and only 3 slots left. Defog Arceus need a cleric cause everything runs Toxic and you are banking on it to remove SR, oh and there's that tag weakness. Cloyster is cool but adds absolutely nothing to your team besides spinning and needs to be on a team that's offensive enough to not ask for that more than once. Tina-o has a host of weaknesses that has hurt its viability this gen and won't be Defogging on Dialga. Scizor eats up your mega slot, loses to Dialga Fire Blast, and can't really be used to pursuit Gar anymore since dbond means you lose your anti SR measure. Plus, it's not terribly good at finding free turns regularly enough to fight off SR in the first place. Basically, the difference between a non-Ho-Oh team with anti-hazard support and one with it is that the Ho-Oh team is utterly reliant on that support and needs to give support FOR THE SUPPORT so that it doesn't fail during a game.
Uh you can easily cover Kyogre with those remaining three slots. Drill and Ho-Oh work very well together anyway since can Ho-Oh can burn bulky Grounds and Waters for Drill while Drill resists Rocks and Electrics. If you decide to run TTar that also means you have Pursuit support, granted its not but so reliable but it does give you more freedom in your choice of Kyogre check since you can more safely run stuff like Arceus-Grass/Water. Palkia is always a good pick as well.

You don't necessarily need a cleric if you're smart about picking your Arceus form. Poison Arceus doesn't necessarily need a Defog user since its immune to Toxic (and Ho-Oh gives you a burn absorber) and Ghost Arceus is immune to Shadow Tag which gives you a lot more freedom in playing with it.

I get that Cloyster only works on HO but that doesn't mean its not a bad option.

Tina-O does have issues but there are enough things it can come in on (like most Grounds and things like that) to where it's not a terrible option and Ho-Oh can always be used as a switch into Fairies/LO Yveltals after Giratina-O has done its Defog duty. It's definitely not optimal but its not useless.

I won't argue Scizor since Scizor isn't the most reliable Defogger anyway, even on teams without Ho-Oh.

The reason why SR becomes so important vs teams with Ho-Oh is because Ho-Oh is such a good Pokemon that not keeping it up means it will tear your face off and slow cook it over an open fire. It is more dependent on anti-hazard support than most other Pokemon but the sheer amount of power, bulk, and utility Ho-Oh brings to the table makes the support worth it. It is also worth noting that a lot of team archetypes that Ho-Oh fits nicely on (stall, balance, Sand, bulky offense maybe) are teams that would normally use some kind of anti-hazard support even without a Ho-Oh. The fact that SR becomes hugely important when facing a Ho-Oh team is much more a testament to how good of a Pokemon it actually is since it definitely puts you under more pressure to keep it up then if, say, you were facing a Charizard.

Ho-Oh is one of the Pokemon that defines the metagame and putting it anywhere lower than A is laughable. Stop acting like having Stealth Rock on your team automatically means you're safe from Ho-Oh because that just isn't true.

As for the other things you mentioned:

Darkrai - It shouldn't be below A/A-. It still fulfills the (very important) offensive niche of checking CM Wisp Arcs with its Speed and Dark Void which is something Yveltal can't do at all, and Nasty Plot makes it a much more efficient cleaner. It is also much better at pressuring defensive Fairy checks due to access to Sludge Bomb which Yveltal can struggle against. Yeah Keys are annoying but Yveltal hates them too so thats not really a point against Darkrai (and before you claim Taunt, Darkrai can do that too).

Klefki - It's fine at A. It is a great Pokemon but it has some very noticeable flaws, mainly its lack of offensive presence and inability to really be a Dragon check because all the Uber dragons have ways to smash it. And as you said it doesn't jive well with Defog support which can hurt its ability to contribute to a match if you need such support on your team.

Deoxys-A - Disagree strongly, Deoxys-A is still a nightmarish offensive threat and it does not require much in the way of actual support.

Deoxys-S - I wouldn't be opposed to making this A-/B+ since all it does is set Spikes and die. It's still very much something you need to be ready for but its not as good as it used to be.

Zekrom - I somewhat disagree since Zekrom is pretty much the reason why Ground/Fairy is really popular on a lot of teams, and getting surprised by a non-Choiced set (Tailwind Zekrom is gnarly) can be absolutely devastating. Not too opposed to A- since people do prepare a lot more for it now, but it shouldn't be anywhere lower than that and it is still a solid Pokemon in the metagame.

Arceus-Electric - Not necessarily opposed, but not necessarily for since it sucks as a support forme, it does have a few archetypes it matches up poorly against (mainly talking Sand teams with Excadrill and stall), and it struggles hard against the things that do check it.

Gothitelle - I think S is a bit of a stretch but A seems appropriate just because of its ability to absolutely shred teams that give it an opening (of which there are quite a few). I'm not too opposed to S I guess but you oughta post an actual argument for it though :P

Dialga - I disagree, I made a post about it awhile ago and I don't really think anything has changed.

Arceus-Fairy - It kind of does need Pursuit because Gengar just wrecks this mon, also lacks the ability to be a cleric unlike its other Fairy friends Xerneas and Sylveon which hurts its defensive utility. Cool CM forme but it does get crapped on by the usual CM Arc checks (SDef Ogre, Ho-Oh, Toxic) and does face competition from GeoXern. So yeah I guess I disagree, being the best Yveltal check is a good plus though.

Arceus-Ground - SD Groundceus is very good and it does check Eleceus way better than Groudon or Lando so I kinda disagree.

Bronzong - Agree with C+, I like this mon but it does have a lot of issues in the current meta and its huge Gothitelle bait.

Forretress - Agreed.

Scolipede - I mostly agree, Scolipede's one big flaw as a suicide lead is that it can't SR so something else on your team has to handle that, but otherwise its cool and beating Deo leads is very nice. Loses very hard to Defog Ghosts and Scizor though.

Kyurem-W - I disagree since Thugly Duckling did make a pretty good team with it not too long ago. It's still really hard to switch in on, great mon for punishing Grounds, Klefki isn't safe at all due to Fusion Flare/EP both smashing it to pieces, and Ice Beam is quite spammable.

Charizard - Charizard is highly overrated and faces huge competition (read: mostly outclassed save a few things) from Blaziken (if X) and Ho-Oh (if Y), it is absolutely not B-rank material. I made a huge post about this already and I'm not going to repeat myself. Charizard fits the C-rank description perfectly anyhow.

Diancie - Disagree, Diancie has a lot of weaknesses and is still a relatively new mon, give it some more time.

TinaA
- Agree

Arceus-Fire - Agree

Abomasnow - Agree

Webbers - I'm not the one you need to convince here (B+ is way too high though, I think B/B- is better)

Also I'm not adding Rhyperior since it was rejected for an analysis (as was Rhydon).
 
Keep in mind, i don't really care about how good / bad a mon is in battle. I'm not talking about that unless it has direct merits on the ease with which you can include it in teambuilding. Remember, this is a viability list and not a threatlist. We aren't talking about the theoretical damage X mon can do to your team but rather how easily you can include X mon in it. With that in mind...

Ho-Oh: You've misunderstood me, I'm not calling any of those bad or saying you can't make teams with those work. I'm certainly not claiming simply having SR on your team makes you non-Ho-Oh weak. I'm saying that by adding Ho-Oh to your team you HAVE to add on of those guys and because they have their own flaws that hurt them from Defogging to the consistency that Ho-Oh requires you HAVE to add more support. It's certainly doable but you eat up a massive amount of teamslots in doing so. You basically have to cater to Ho-Oh completely in your teambuild because it's one the most support demanding Pokemon in existence. To the point most Ho-Oh builds can be summarized by what anti-SR measure you opt for as there is usually very little variation once you know that. Thank god it's good enough to make all that investment worth it. Still doesn't erase the fact you did have to invest so much.

Keys: Doesn't need offensive presence, Spikes is plenty enough of a punish. Idc if it can't check Dragons super reliably (which are like 3 mons in total? and it's not like the other fairy's fair noticeably better or that there aren't shit tons of teammates you could easily add to cover them), it checks a shit load of other things and Spikes all over the metagame.

Deo A: It can't switch in on anything, how does it not require a lot of support? It also adds no utilities or support itself unless you are using Spikes which you need support to keep in play.

Deo S: This thread is not a threatlist. I'm not talking about how ready you have to be to handle Deo S, I'm talking about how easily it is to build a good team with Deo S in it. Deo S is pretty support heavy and has limited building options because you can only justify it's slot if the hazards it sets contribute enough to go 5/6.

Gothitelle: S stands for Shadow Tag

Dialga: I'd argue but I don't care enough to go back and find that post. If you don't mind quoting it that'd be hot but if you do then I'll just move on.

Arceus Fairy: Not really. You burn mega gar as it comes in as Gengar and then the best it can do is a bunch of 50/50s. Just trust me on the calcs for this one, I don't really want to have to write it all out.

Arceus Ground: 50/50 is not a reliable enough check to be justifying it for that reason. It's a great mon, I know, that's why everybody wants to make a good build with it. But it indirectly results in a lot of limitations which is why almost nobody has one.

Kyurem-W: Mind explaining what Kyu-w does on ducky's team? Even in his RMT, all he does is cite a bunch of damage calcs. His team is just a nice 5 mon team with Kyurem W slapped on cause you can sorta get away with it. That's p much every Kyu-W build which is why I said it's not very viable and only worth considering if you are convinced the other guy is bringing stall.

Ekiller: I actually do still disagree with S rank for him but I don't care enough to go and look for the arguments to respond to so whatever.
 

Minority

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Darkrai to B+ - It's not a bad mon it just faces massive competition from Ygod and doesn't really give a major role now that Ghost Arceus isn't running the meta anymore.

Deo A to B and Deo S to B- - I disagree with many that Spikes Offense is dead but it's very much a limited playstyle. Deo A is still fucking Deo A, though, and does more than Spike stack so a higher level sounds fair.

Dialga to A+ - This mon is so amazing and is probably the only good mon that you can use on an offensive oriented team to not be weak to electric arceus.

Ho-Oh to A- or B+ - idc how good Ho-Oh is, it's utter cancer in teambuilder and probably one of the most limiting fucking things that you could ever add to a team short of gimmicks and those obscure niche mons. Keep in mind this list is from a teambuilding perspective so that's why I'm being so harsh on it in that regards.

Keys to A+ - This mon is still amazing and ridiculously splashable. blah blah blah, you need strong physical attacker but you'd have that anyways so that's not even a problem. It's also probably the only big spikes user in the meta that's good because of the ease in which it finds free turns and is quite a threat to teams through them.

Zekrom to A- or B+ - Meta's changed. Scarf Zekrom is ridiculously inconsistent and is a very all or nothing mon. The none-choice sets are cool for stall breaking, tho.

Arceus Electric to A - Such a hard mon to check on offensive teams and it gives you quite a few hard to find advantages defensively such as checking ygod and ho-oh. Not being a good wisp user kinda hurts it tho.

Gothitelle to S

Arceus Fairy to A- - This is the best Ygod check around and that's not something to be looking down on. It fits on a lot of builds since it doesn't really *need* pursuit support and it covers a lot of things while being scary itself.

Arceus Ground to B - It's not a bad mon, it's just that using any ground-type that isn't lando or gdon indirectly limits your building options. You now have to use something else to fill the SR role and most of the none-ground type SR users share common weaknesses like Kyogre and Earthquake. You also miss out on the flying immunity Lando brings and have already swallowed up your Arceus forme with something that can't Wisp or Espeed Xern. Checking Zekrom isn't really a big defensive niche.

Zong to C+ - A bad xern check and a bad SR setter, you should probably rebuild your team if you are using this.

Deo-D to C+

Forry to C - The meta is too shallow in the hazards game right now for this to be any good

Whims to B- - It just looks kidna odd man out in the B rank and it's not the most flexible mon in teambuilder. I've seen some really good builds with it tho so I don't want to put it in C+ but it's also not the easiest mon to build around so it's maybe best to go there.

Arceus Steel to C

Kyurem-W to C - This is probably only good if you are 100% sure the other guy is bringing stall.

Scolipede to B - See Deoxys A/S

Charizard to B - Can we stop underrating these guys? Both formes are really good on the right builds. I'll talk B- but come on not C+

Diancie to B- - It's a pretty limited mon in teambuilder, mostly cause of Keys imo, but it's also got a lot of really good things going for it that can let you really innovate.

Tina A to C

Arc fire to C - About as viable as Dragonceus, imo.

Webs setters to B+ - I strongly disagree with webs being a bad playstyle and I think if, anything, it's even better in a thread like this because it's kidna a teambuilder's dream. The speed control just opens up sooo many new options but that simply wouldn't work otherwise. There's no reason these guys should be in B. I also disagree that Shuckle outclasses. Smeargle isn't Keys fodder which is quite big and the inconsistencies it has are mostly wiped out by running the good Nuzzle set and a complete non-issue if you have a teammate like Genesect.

Abomasnow to off the map - I don't think this is viable, wasn't it rejected for an analysis?
Darkrai A ~ Arceus-Ghost is still excellent, as is Darkrai on HO teams, neglecting hax it pulls its weight at the very least

Deo-A A ~ Another excellent mon for HO teams that sacrifices the lack of T-Spikes for SR + offensive capability

Deo-S A ~ Alternative to Deo-A which can be more reliable but has less offensive capability

Dialga A ~ The best SR setter, it even works on HO teams and has valuable utility, also hits hard

Ho-Oh A ~ One of the hardest mons to check, it requires anti-hazard support (as does a lot of stuff) but it's still great, also bird

Keys A+ ~ Perhaps the best way to handle Xern, spams status, has Spikes, easy to put on a balance team

Zekrom A- ~ Bolt Suck, powerful but prediction reliant and the definition of inconsistent

Arceus-Electric A- ~ Has to run dual coverage and can't really afford to run Defog, Wisp, or Refresh, great CM Arceus though

Gothitelle no more than A- ~ Matchup reliant, can suck versus offensive teams and even against certain defensive ones

Arceus-Fairy A- ~ Great CM that can afford Refresh and support Arc, checks Yveltal and other stuff well

Arceus-Ground B+ ~ Using your Arceus for a Ground type limits team building but its very powerful

Bronzong C+ ~ niche mon, can work well on certain teams but otherwise is lame

Deo-D C ~ Inferior hazard setter for most teams

Forretress C ~ All it can really do is set hazards and spin, both of which aren't as important in this meta

Arceus-Steel C ~ Not a reliable Xern check, can't check Yveltal because nerf, SD and support forums are outclassed

Kyurem-W C+ ~ Hard to use and even harder to build around, but can be effective on the right team

Scolipede B ~ The best user of Toxic Spikes for offensive teams, excellent lead for HO teams but doesn't have SR

Charizard C ~ Requires the support that Ho-Oh does and more and is usually outclassed by Blaziken

Diancie C+ ~ Great way to handle Ho-Oh and works good on TR teams, but is specialized

Giratina-A C ~ Xern magnet, has no offensive presence, and is massive Taunt bait, it's a shame because the bulk is amazing

Arceus-Fire C ~ I like Arceus-Fire but it just sucks, not even the best way to handle Geo Xern

Shuckle + Smeargle C+ ~ Webs are really matchup reliant, Shuckle is generally the better of the two but Smeargle is usable

Ditto C+ ~ About as matchup reliant as webs, works great against offense, mediocre against balance, and just sucks vs. stall

Abomasnow C- ~ It looks like its getting an analysis, I've never actually used it

Gastrodon C+ ~ Niche mon but it's good, definitely not C-

Landorus A ~ Good SR setter, has good power, but what it checks it does not check that well, it's not as defining as the A+ mons

Victini B- ~ Nice and powerful, checks some common stuff, Bolt Strike still sucks
 

alexwolf

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Melee Mewtwo said:
Keep in mind, i don't really care about how good / bad a mon is in battle. I'm not talking about that unless it has direct merits on the ease with which you can include it in teambuilding. Remember, this is a viability list and not a threatlist. We aren't talking about the theoretical damage X mon can do to your team but rather how easily you can include X mon in it. With that in mind...
The viability lists should take into account both how effective a Pokemon is during a battle and how easy it is to fit on a team (how much support it needs, opportunity cost). Viability is not affected only by the teambuilding process.
 

Fireburn

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Ho-Oh: You've misunderstood me, I'm not calling any of those bad or saying you can't make teams with those work. I'm certainly not claiming simply having SR on your team makes you non-Ho-Oh weak. I'm saying that by adding Ho-Oh to your team you HAVE to add on of those guys and because they have their own flaws that hurt them from Defogging to the consistency that Ho-Oh requires you HAVE to add more support. It's certainly doable but you eat up a massive amount of teamslots in doing so. You basically have to cater to Ho-Oh completely in your teambuild because it's one the most support demanding Pokemon in existence. To the point most Ho-Oh builds can be summarized by what anti-SR measure you opt for as there is usually very little variation once you know that. Thank god it's good enough to make all that investment worth it. Still doesn't erase the fact you did have to invest so much.
Uhhhh...no. Ho-Oh is often a vital member of the teams it is on, but unless you're running sun offense it usually is not the Pokemon it is built around. It is entirely possible that you already have anti-hazard support when making a team and decide to put in a Ho-Oh because it fits nicely and despite needing anti-hazard support it can still be splashed on if you already have it - in this case it becomes not "a Ho-Oh team" but rather "a team with Ho-Oh on it", which I find is usually the case more often than not. You're also way overselling the teambuilding "restrictions" thing because stuff like Defog/Spin and cleric support are things stall/balance teams typically want anyway, Drill is practically the reason to use Sand so hazard support is built-in, and sun offense can get away without a cleric. There is also still the fact that Ho-Oh can be incorporated into so many different archetypes despite needing anti-hazard support which is a real testament to how "restrictive" it is in the teambuilder.

If you want to go through the teambuilding angle, Ho-Oh also affects teambuilding for your opponents because it is one of the Pokemon you HAVE to be prepared for or it wrecks you. The whole point about Stealth Rock is that beating Ho-Oh is not as easy as simply using a Pokemon that can learn the move in the teambuilder - even with Stealth Rock you have to go out of your way to make sure you can handle it, and even if you're prepared it can still do considerable work because it (at the risk of sounding like a fanboy) rules and pretty much craps on everything that isn't Arceus-Rock.

As more of an aside, I also find it hilarious you think so little of Ho-Oh but so highly of Charizard, both require anti-hazard support but Ho-Oh just brings so much more to a team to the point of almost outclassing poor Zard completely (ZardY).

Keys: Doesn't need offensive presence, Spikes is plenty enough of a punish. Idc if it can't check Dragons super reliably (which are like 3 mons in total? and it's not like the other fairy's fair noticeably better or that there aren't shit tons of teammates you could easily add to cover them), it checks a shit load of other things and Spikes all over the metagame.
The other fairies actually do fare a lot better against the specially inclined Dragons like Palkia and Kyurem-W since they have the raw defenses to take stuff like Hydros and what not. I'll give you Zekrom though. Yeah it can Spike but it it also lacks the offensive presence to dissuade things like offensive Grounds and Ho-Oh from getting a free turn to come in and nuke something, or letting in something like a Ferrothorn or another Klefki to counter with its own Spikes. That's what I meant by lacking offensive presence, obviously Klefki isn't a sweeper but it can't really do much to stop the things that can take advantage of it from coming in.

Deo A: It can't switch in on anything, how does it not require a lot of support? It also adds no utilities or support itself unless you are using Spikes which you need support to keep in play.
It requires almost zero support offensively since it is capable of taking down almost anything that could possibly be a check. Boost/Superpower with three of Knock/ESpeed/HP Fire (Fire Punch might actually be better because of keys though) pretty much destroys everything. And it can provide its own support with hazards (gets SR and Spikes) while still packing a huge punch. It does need help getting into battle (which I guess counts as support) but that doesn't eclipse the fact it destroys everything. Its still very much worth A-rank imo.

Deo S: This thread is not a threatlist. I'm not talking about how ready you have to be to handle Deo S, I'm talking about how easily it is to build a good team with Deo S in it. Deo S is pretty support heavy and has limited building options because you can only justify it's slot if the hazards it sets contribute enough to go 5/6.
I'll give you that since I don't disagree that Deo-S teams are more restricted than before, my point was more that teambuilding works both ways and preparing for a threat is just as important as fitting it on your team when discussing viability, because the damage a Pokemon can do to teams is in of itself a reflection of how good it is in the current metagame. (What alexwolf said basically)

Gothitelle: S stands for Shadow Tag.
Fair enough, I won't argue too much about this.

Arceus Fairy: Not really. You burn mega gar as it comes in as Gengar and then the best it can do is a bunch of 50/50s. Just trust me on the calcs for this one, I don't really want to have to write it all out.
Sludge Wave? Taunt? Are you assuming Calm Mind? I'd like to know exactly what scenario you had in mind.

Arceus Ground: 50/50 is not a reliable enough check to be justifying it for that reason. It's a great mon, I know, that's why everybody wants to make a good build with it. But it indirectly results in a lot of limitations which is why almost nobody has one.
Even if Groundceus loses the speed tie it wins lol. It only takes 73% max from +1 252 SpA Ice Beam (if 4 HP, 252 HP only takes 63% max) and it does huge damage back with EQ. Even if Eleceus wins the speed tie it can't OHKO Groundceus who takes Ice Beam way better than Groudon and Landorus-T. It is WAY better as a check to Eleceus than either Groudon or Lando-T, and the latter doesn't even count because it gets smashed by Ice Beam.

I won't argue it isn't restricting but its still deadly enough to make it worthwhile.

Kyurem-W: Mind explaining what Kyu-w does on ducky's team? Even in his RMT, all he does is cite a bunch of damage calcs. His team is just a nice 5 mon team with Kyurem W slapped on cause you can sorta get away with it. That's p much every Kyu-W build which is why I said it's not very viable and only worth considering if you are convinced the other guy is bringing stall.
He kind of needs it to not get wrecked by Grass Arceus and stall lol. It punches holes which is valuable since his team is a bit lacking on offense without it. He can comment more if he wants though since it is his team.
 
We're trying to handle too many noms at one go IMO, everyone just winds up posting a lot, discussion gets very diluted, and nothing actually gets moved. Could we limit discussion to like 2-3 mons at a time (can be listed in the thread title) and come to a consensus on them before we move on to the next pair? I'm saying this particularly because some mons stand out as having iffy placements to me (Arceus is a huge one; other formes such as Electric and Fairy also merit further discussion) and I'd prefer that these get sorted out first. When we're talking about 10 mons at once, people are bound to disagree with each other on something; narrowing the scope of discussion would make things that much more efficient.
 
The viability lists should take into account both how effective a Pokemon is during a battle and how easy it is to fit on a team (how much support it needs, opportunity cost). Viability is not affected only by the teambuilding process.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but viability threads are supposed to answer the question "How viable is this Pokemon?" which is, in other words, "How successful can I be building a team with this Pokemon?" To me, it's pointless to be responding that you can build a good team with X mon at any deeper sort of nuance beyond, yeah this mon is [not] utter garbage. After that point, just about any mon included on this list above D rank could be seen on a solid tournament team and wouldn't be able to objectively say that said team is inferior to another solid tournament team because you can't compare these things, imo. Therefore, the point of splitting these mons between the ranks is to establish more or less the number of solid tournament teams that you could make using said mon.

Basically, I'm not exactly disagreeing with what you said as much as clarifying what I said earlier in my midnight manner of expression. Fireburn's earlier responses to my explanation on Ho-Oh's teambuilding limitations, for example, were things like how Ho-Oh is incredibly dangerous without SR and how it's entirely possible to keep that hazard off the field to the point of winning. What I was trying to say in response is that I wasn't denying those things but that they are irrelevant since you are just explaining what a solid HO-Oh team does and how it generates wins. You can apply these types of responses to any Pokemon C- and above, but doing so isn't answering how feasible it is to accomplish such a team which is what people are asking. Obviously, more effective Pokemon are going to be easier to build around as they accomplish more and require less than a mildy effective Pokemon would. I don't agree, though, that how much X threat limits your teambuilding really responds to how viable it is in a team of your own. Simple example is that Deo-S can definitely pose a threat to your team if it lacks anti-Spikes measures but that doesn't mean Deo-S is a mon you can build a bunch of good teams out of.


Anyways, I don't care much to argue about the mons much further. I brought all those up because I assumed the majority would pass very easily but if folks are satisfied with the current list then idc. At this point, it's just about arguing two different teambuilding perspectives instead of whether or not the current list is misleading to new players which won't go anywhere.
 
I hope Mewtwo stays in S. It has a LOT of really good sets (3 attacks Taunt mm2X, CM mm2Y, Taunt 3 attacks mm2Y, Stalltwo, LO regular Mewtwo, etc.) and there is no universal answer barring perhaps Ghost Arceus...and even that will lose to Calm Mind / Recover / Psystrike / Fire Blast MM2Y. It has a sick speed tier, Taunt, power, Taunt, versatility, a spammable STAB move that ensures it will win CM wars, and Taunt. It is weak to Choice Scarf users, which is why I often run Mewtwo outside of offensive teams (even LO Mewtwo) since balance and stall should easily cover stuff like Scarf Kyogre and Scarf Zekrom.

Some disagreements:

Thundurus is overvalued, it doesn't hit hard and Taunt on a Pokemon as frail as it can often backfire...even walls that it attempts to Taunt will typically smack it back for good damage. Sure, its Prankster Taunt can give teammates set-up opportunities and TWave can stop opposing sweepers, but Whimsicott can do this too while possessing a far better defensive typing. Though they don't have Prankster, Mewtwo and Gengar can provide setup opportunities for deadly Pokemon with fast Taunts (especially the latter thanks to Shadow Tag) and are much better Pokemon than Thundurus, so it's not like Thundy has some sort of amazing niche. B or B- please, I know it's pretty good on HO and Thunderbolt + Grass Knot has decent coverage but B+ is a stretch.

I'd move Gastrodon to C, it is REALLY predictable and mediocre but it has some nice tools (Mirror Coat for Mega Gengar, Clear Smog for CM Arceus, etc) that distinguishes itself from most other mons in the tier barring Tentacruel I guess...and unlike Tenta, Gastro reliably switches into every single Kyogre barring the very rare SubCM. It isn't good but putting it in the same rank as Mega Abomasnow is harsh.

What does Sylveon do to warrant B+ rank? I am genuinely curious, specially defensive Xerneas counters Yveltal and friends too while also providing Wish and Cleric support. Is Sylveon's SpD edge worth it?

Edit: o derp
 
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I disagree with moving Kyu-W down. Seriously this thing can't be on the same boat as stuff like Diancie and Psychiceus. You're not supposed to build a team around it (though ducky's team is actually pretty solid), you use Kyu-W if you need a one-mon answer for the many, many bulky mons weak to ice that lurk the ubers tier, including but not limited to Lugia, Giratina, Yveltal, Grassceus, Groundceus, Lando-T and Groudon.
Unlike the other Dragons who need to be careful about using their Dragon STAB due to Xerneas being behind every corner, Kyu-W has the incredibly spammable Ice Beam at its disposal.
Just take a look at the sheer number of S- and A- ranked mons that are 1HKO or 2HKO'd by the move. There are precisely 5 Ice resists in those ranks, 3 of them (Klefki, Scizor and Blaziken) being destroyed by either Earth Power or Fusion Flare, while the other 2 (Waterceus and Kyogre) are just eating a Draco Meteor or Toxic and can't do much in return since Kyu-W resists their STAB and most common coverage moves. Kyurem-W is also blessed with excellent coverage moves that destroy stuff like Ferrothorn and Aegislash. Speaking of Aegislash, it should be mentioned that it resists all of Kyurem-W's weaknesses, and Kyu-W can reliably remove everything Aegislash hates (such as the aforementioned Groudon and Yveltal) making them a great duo.
Kyu-W also enjoys the Defog buff, meaning it can come in much more often than it could in BW. Another thing it enjoys is that its only true counter, Chansey, is unviable as long as Mega Gengar is around.
Been said this, I would recommend moving Kyurem-W up, not down.
 

haxiom

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I disagree with moving Kyu-W down. Seriously this thing can't be on the same boat as stuff like Diancie and Psychiceus. You're not supposed to build a team around it, you use Kyu-W if you need a one-mon answer for the many, many bulky mons weak to ice that lurk the ubers tier, including but not limited to Lugia, Giratina, Yveltal, Grassceus, Groundceus, Lando-T and Groudon.
Unlike the other Dragons who need to be careful about using their Dragon STAB due to Xerneas being behind every corner, Kyu-W has the incredibly spammable Ice Beam at its disposal.
Just take a look at the sheer number of S- and A- ranked mons that are 1HKO or 2HKO'd by the move. There are precisely 5 Ice resists in those ranks, 3 of them (Klefki, Scizor and Blaziken) being destroyed by either Earth Power or Fusion Flare, while the other 2 (Waterceus and Kyogre) are just eating a Draco Meteor or Toxic and can't do much in return since Kyu-W resists their STAB and most common coverage moves. And that's not even mentioning its excellent coverage moves that destroy stuff like Ferrothorn and Aegislash. Speaking of Aegislash, it should be mentioned that it resists all of Kyurem-W's weaknesses, and Kyu-W can reliably remove everything Aegislash hates (such as the aforementioned Groudon and Yveltal) making them a great duo.
Kyu-W also enjoys the Defog buff, meaning it can come in much more often than it could in BW. Another thing it enjoys is that its only true counter, Chansey, is unviable as long as Mega Gengar is around.
Well I mean there a few clear flaws with this logic. The sentiment that you think hm I need a ground check. Duh! Kyu-W! No, not at all. Also, the logic that KO'ing A rank mons is not particularly relevant since they kill you first and aren't meant to switch in. It's not awful, but it doesn't have the utility you describe it to have at all.
 
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