Questions/Problems when East meets the West

[vonFiedler]

Well... Buddhism didn't specifically forbid dog meat, but all meats are discouraged in Buddhism anyway. Moreover, if you are a monk, you are expected to be strictly vegan.

Meat eating is only discouraged in certain sects of Buddhism, in fact Buddha himself ate meat and allowed his monks to do so. For a Buddhist monk, humility is a priority over vegetarianism when you have to live off the kindness of others. Still, dog is a forbidden meat to them.

I acknowledge that to most Westerners, dogs are kept as pets so you have this special feeling towards dogs. That's why you feel you should oppose dog meat instead of pig's meat.
But if you think deeper, it really isn't a logical thing to set a difference between dogs and pigs.

To be honest, I find it completely hilarious how some Westerners aren't vegetarian but oppose dog meat.
I don't harbor the same feeling towards vegetarians. I admire them. There are many times that I tried being vegetarian.
But saying that something is bad, whilst doing something that's equally as bad, is so funny. It feels like you have double-standard too.

But that's the crux of the problem with modern animal rights activism. Either you're a weak willed vegetarian, or you're a heartless meat eater. And that's bullshit.

Livestock pigs can't be pets. They aren't work animals. They couldn't exist in the wild. We can't decide to make pigs not livestock animals. That decision was made for us thousands of years ago. So the least we owe pigs is a right to a comfortable life and a painless death. And that's not a battle even close to over anywhere in the world; certainly not in America where states are currently passing laws to prosecute whistle-blowers.

But to a modern factory farm owner it's all the same as your views towards dogs. If I was a vegetarian then so what, I have nothing to offer them. But if I complain about animals being buried alive, overcrowded, and beaten, they think "oh, but you aren't a vegetarian eh?". If these kinds of activities weren't strictly illegal than we could do nothing about it most likely; but even if they can't change those laws they are instead making it easier and easier to legally hide their activities.

For the three countries where dog eating is actually a common occurrence, only one of them partake in livestock dogs, and I suspect those dogs are adequately intelligent enough to integrate into other forms of life. For an animal that works or is a pet, we owe them basic rights to life. That's a controversial viewpoint even in the west, where stray dogs are slaughtered by the thousands, dogs are put to death over minor crimes and killed with impunity by police officers, and given assisted suicides like it ain't no thing (whether dogs are humans are getting the raw deal here is another debate). It is merely a compromise to ask that these animals aren't needlessly harvested for food, and South Koreans agree. One of the most famous dog restaurants is closing today.

Hell, even the Chinese words for dogs show the fundamental problem here. You have one word for beloved dogs, and a different one for the types of dogs that are strays. It's the later category that is reviled and used as food. This isn't unique to the east, dogs were treated much the same way in early America. But the problem of strays is one that humans are responsible for. It's no different than hating the homeless; it solves nothing and only lets you sleep at night better.

Not that I eat dogs. But it certainly isn't something I would oppose neither. And I truly get annoyed when my race gets mocked for doing it.

But as much as you think feelings seem to be the crux of my argument, this seems to be the crux of yours (and no offense, but it seems to be the subject of many threads you post). I am not mocking your race. I am only trying to protect animals. We ourselves have neglected this in the past. We are better, but still falter now. Meanwhile the growing sentiment in Asian countries is anti-dog eating. This, like all inalienably righteous causes, does not run west to east, it runs past to future.

 

[Kingpoleon]

Question: Is our Lo Mein/Chow Mein/Fried Rice fake Chinese food?

 

[vonFiedler]

Question: Is our Lo Mein/Chow Mein/Fried Rice fake Chinese food?

Those aren't complete inventions seeing as they are just noodles and rice dishes. However the cooking method and ingredients are likely to be very different. They don't fry everything like we do, and their ingredients focus more on the vegetables/rice while we focus on meat. Some say this makes our versions blander (I don't really agree, but I cook all my own Chinese food and nothing I make is bland), but they are definitely more fattening.

You want fake Chinese food, big offenders are sweet and sour pork/chicken and general zuo's. Damn delicious though.

 

[Cresselia~~]

Lo Mein, Chow Mein/ Fried rice are all real Chinese food, just that they are cooked rather differently over here.
And ... sweet and sour pork is also a legit dish.

But as much as you think feelings seem to be the crux of my argument, this seems to be the crux of yours (and no offense, but it seems to be the subject of many threads you post). I am not mocking your race. I am only trying to protect animals. We ourselves have neglected this in the past. We are better, but still falter now. Meanwhile the growing sentiment in Asian countries is anti-dog eating. This, like all inalienably righteous causes, does not run west to east, it runs past to future.

Oh, I'm not saying that you mocked my race. I'm saying that other people has done it.

 

[Trax]

But if you think deeper, it really isn't a logical thing to set a difference between dogs and pigs.

To be honest, I find it completely hilarious how some Westerners aren't vegetarian but oppose dog meat.
I don't harbor the same feeling towards vegetarians. I admire them. There are many times that I tried being vegetarian.
But saying that something is bad, whilst doing something that's equally as bad, is so funny. It feels like you have double-standard too.

For the record, I am vegetarian but there's still a clear difference.

Disagree? try training a guard pig or a hunting pig or a herding pig.

 

[Cresselia~~]

For the record, I am vegetarian but there's still a clear difference.

Disagree? try training a guard pig or a hunting pig or a herding pig.

But how is this relevant to whether an animal should be eaten?

I think dog-eating is illegal in Hong Kong to mainly avoid people stealing pet dogs as food. Rather than from a cruelty sense.
You know, Hong Kong is actually far behind when it comes to animal rights, but dog meat had been illegal since long ago.

 

[Crux]

I don't see how the specific and morally arbitrary use for which we have historically enslaved a certain species of animal gives them more or less of a right to life or us more or less of a moral obligation to respect that. The backbreaking that is being done in this thread to justify eating pigs but not dogs is actually pretty funny tbh.

 

[KM]

I've found a lot of the attitudes Americans have towards the consumptions of dogs in other parts of the world are more attitudes of disbelief than they are attitudes of "oh, x culture is so barbarian for eating dog". Regardless of dogs' somewhat arbitrary role as beloved pets, I think it's more the concept that when you say "dog meat", Americans picture their beloved poodle / labrador / chihuahua / whatever and are repulsed not necessarily because of the species of animal, but more because the animal's representation is an animal that they love and cherish. I think you'd find that whenever people have pets of a certain species (yes, even pet pigs!) they are much less likely to go out and buy bacon or pork just because of that association.

that said, america does seem to have a lot of stereotypical associations with a lot of meats being eaten, not just dogs. cows, sheep, pigs, chicken, turkeys, and even ducks are all seen as relatively common and acceptable. deer, bison, bull, and some others are seen as hunter-y and outdoorsy and rustic. rodents are seen as the meals of homeless people and vagabonds. I think there is somewhat of an arbitrary, but pervasive revulsion against the concept of eating a dog, but I feel this is more due to our strict guidelines for which animals serve which purpose, rather than originating as a hatred of the practices of the East

 

[Trax]

But how is this relevant to whether an animal should be eaten?

Utilitarian purpose, primarily.

 

[Cresselia~~]

Utilitarian purpose, primarily.

Ah, similar to how some older generation Taiwanese people don't eat beef.

Those days, they used cows to plow the field, and they felt that cows have worked hard enough, so people shouldn't eat them.
(But nowadays, many Taiwanese people don't eat beef due to allergy. They have a high percentage of allergy towards beef.)

-----------------

Damn it, we haven't finished with the Pokken bit yet.
And the direction of the discussion changed.
Damn it Chou Toshio -____-

 

[Cresselia~~]

(A little rant here)

How come Westerners (mostly Americans) say stuff like "No one likes ___ Pokemon"?
Have they done their statistical research that absolutely no one likes that Pokemon?

And when confronted with actual statistics (Said Pokemon fan club has said amount of members), they said "Compared to millions who like Pikachu"
And that's another person!

It seems to sound quite disrespectful.
We don't even know each other and they hurt people's feelings without knowing them?
---------------------------

EDIT: I didn't know that they don't imply "you are a loner" with that.
Because some people from Asia would have thought it implies that.

 

[vonFiedler]

(A little rant here)

How come Westerners (mostly Americans) say disrespectful stuff like "No one likes ___ Pokemon"?
Have they done their statistical research that absolutely no one likes that Pokemon?

It took me a bit to figure out this was in reference to specific Pokemon and not Pokemon in general.

I can't say that nobody likes any Pokemon, but I'm well within my rights to criticize certain Pokemon. Pokemon is an art, and there is no art without art criticism. I don't know how this could possibly be a specifically American attitude, but if it is I'm glad to be one (but you're probably just appealing to personal experience).

If you like something have the backbone to explain why you think it is good, don't appeal to popularity either.

None of this should come across as rude.

 

[Cresselia~~]

It took me a bit to figure out this was in reference to specific Pokemon and not Pokemon in general.

I can't say that nobody likes any Pokemon, but I'm well within my rights to criticize certain Pokemon. Pokemon is an art, and there is no art without art criticism. I don't know how this could possibly be a specifically American attitude, but if it is I'm glad to be one (but you're probably just appealing to personal experience).

If you like something have the backbone to explain why you think it is good, don't appeal to popularity either.

None of this should come across as rude.

So it's not considered as rude at all?

I'm not talking about criticizing a particular Pokemon. Everyone could have said things about Pokemon they don't like.
I'm talking about criticizing the fans of a certain Pokemon.
Because when you say that such and such Pokemon has no fans, it looks like you are implying that the fans of this Pokemon are losers/ loners.

Do you see what I mean?

(Did I get hurt because I thought too far?)

 

[vonFiedler]

So it's not considered as rude at all?

It should be an opportunity to articulate your own opinion. Be constructive. You seem to just take a lot of things way too personally.

 

[GatoDelFuego]

I'm talking about criticizing the fans of a certain Pokemon.
Because when you say that such and such Pokemon has no fans, it looks like you are implying that the fans of this Pokemon are losers/ loners.

Do you see what I mean?

(Did I get hurt because I thought too far?)

That's not what people think at all. It's just a figure of speech.

 

[Cresselia~~]

It should be an opportunity to articulate your own opinion. Be constructive. You seem to just take a lot of things way too personally.

So I just state my opinion to counter it?

That's not what people think at all. It's just a figure of speech.

Then I know...
It's not because Americans are rude, but because to an average American, they won't think that the sentence implies something.

This is quite interesting.

I saw somewhere explaining that Asians tend to rely a lot on implications, whilst in English, people should speak more straightforwardly.

 

[vonFiedler]

So I just state my opinion to counter it?

Why is X Pokemon a good Pokemon? What qualities makes it stand out? What are the artistic mechanisms that are employed? What emotions does it effectively appeal to?

 

[Shiruba]

How come Westerners (mostly Americans) say disrespectful stuff like "No one likes ___ Pokemon"?
Have they done their statistical research that absolutely no one likes that Pokemon?
No. Rather, people in the west tend to be much more liberally insulting, especially these days, as the social guidelines are much less strict. Personal attacks are probably much more common than in eastern culture due to the fact that people are generally more... babied, I suppose. Notice how school takes up much less of a student's life in western culture than eastern culture (as far as I'm aware) - life has been recently devoted to improving quality of life and making it easier and more enjoyable to live - I like to say that the east is more about The Strength of Many whereas the west is more inclined to follow The Power of One, thus "be whatever you want to be" and "you're a unique, special person" being really prevalent sentiments in western culture, meaning that people are more self-important and less "group aware" - at the cost of probably having higher self-esteem. A lot of people blame Generation X, or the children of the baby boomers, as those that lead the charge to making their children more narcissistic, but that's just a common belief I've heard used.


And when confronted with actual statistics (Said Pokemon fan club has said amount of members), they said "Compared to millions who like Pikachu"
And that's another person!
Well, it's true that more people like Pikachu than Jynx, though I personally disagree that just because you don't like it doesn't mean nobody does; it's a figure of speech as well, English in particular uses hyperbole on a really regular basis - people abuse words like "awesome," "epic," and "literally" far too often.
How can people be collectively so rude and disrespectful?
We don't even know each other and they hurt people's feelings without knowing them?
Because a lot of people these days just weren't raised to give a shit. It's really unfortunate.
I remember taking a baby sitting course when I was around twelve. I was in a group of about ten kids, most of them seemed pretty bored. Honestly, I was as well; it was a ten-hour course on a Saturday with a lot of talking and not much else. These kids, though? Man, badmouthing the teacher, making it very clear that they didn't want to be there, outright rolling their eyes- I was pretty appalled, not gonna lie. The teacher looked so embarrassed, too - I felt very bad for her. I'd like to think that part of it is that a lot of these kids were raised by televisions instead of their parents, so the hands-off approach probably didn't help.
(I'm not gonna say I'm not rude, though; I know I can say hurtful things, though I'd like to think I don't do it intentionally. That said, I generally don't talk in public much at all; I go to school to learn, not to make friends)
---------------------------
No offense, most of these people are from America, not Britain or Canada.
I've seen it done many times and am not happy with the rudeness of these people.
People have different interests, come on?
Is it a shame to like a Pokemon that has a few fans?
While I've found that most Canadians I know have at least a slight disdain for the USA (most of the time it's not serious, though), I find that people from the US do tend to be a bit more arrogant than those from other places; not always, it's merely a tendency I've observed.

I think it's because they, too, are fed a lot of stuff at birth. They recite the Pledge of Allegiance - some every school day - they're frequently told that they live in the "freest" and "best" country on earth (the former isn't even true, I think this one will please you, jynx), their national anthem is pretty much "An Ode to American Awesomeness," and it's generally reinforced by how much content that's made in the Land of the Free that means they don't really need to outsource their entertainment much at all, especially since they speak one of the most widespread languages on the planet, meaning they don't need to expose themselves to a lot of stuff that's going on outside of the country, as opposed to, say, here; people here talk about US politics more than Canadian ones! That said, Canadian politics aren't quite the shitfest that ones from the US are (though they are approaching that), and Canadians in general don't put nearly as much weight on one's political affiliation as they do, either - I, for one, was really confused when someone used "Democrat" as an insult.

@ the dog conversation
You really wanna know? It has nothing to do with "social responsibility" or whatever - if it did, we'd probably just let them die out peacefully if it weren't in the interest of pure money. Nah, people will pay a lot for muh burgers, and as the global demand for meat increases, so does the potential profit, even as the materials to make meat (meat is a grossly inefficient method of feeding people, especially beef), skyrocket in price, people don't care as long as they get that fried chicken. That also can't be the case because factory farms are easily one of the most common ways to make the stuff, and those are horror houses - do you guys really think that they'd work people literally to death in sweatshop factories on a regular basis and yet somehow treat the animals better? Not a chance, buddy, Old MacDonald's farm got sold off to Monsanto fifty years ago.

The real reason is because the west is just used to it, which is an interesting contrast from the "freedom" mindset when a lot of people choose to conform anyway. It's the norm, people don't really think about it or question it, especially since vegetarians are thought of as either pale, lanky weaklings or as hippy-dippy communists, neither of which are necessarily true, especially the former. It's also because there're a lot of misconceptions with that whole thing - if you stop eating meat you'll not get enough protein, you're gonna be malnourished, etc etc etc, partially because the US food guide is actually made by the agricultural sector instead of the heath one. Yeah. Makes sense that they'd try to promote what would make them the most money.

I mean, as long as people stay informed, at least they make a valid decision, but people cloaking themselves in all this dumb shit is really astounding; that's western society as a whole, not just this thread. One of the few times I will actually agree with Crux lately.

 

[Stratos]

jynx: i once recently said "people who put ice in their juice are retarded." Do i really think that juice-icers are really just a subset of the mentally disabled population? Of course not lol. It's just a (rather crude, admittedly) American way of expressing a strong opinion (that I don't like ice in my juice), and I mean no harm to (nor is any received by) an American audience.

In a similar vein, when he said "nobody likes jynx what a shit pokemon lmao" you should not have taken offense, because all he was really expressing is "i personally do not jynx and I haven't talked to many people who do." I, for example, might say "nobody likes the Dallas Cowboys lmfao" despite the fact that the team has millions of fans nationwide because I personally think they're shit and I'm from an area where most people are Ravens or Redskins fans.

Basically the takeaway is that 1) hyperbole is colloquial in America for stating that you strongly hold a position instead of using an adverb like "strongly" and 2) you should probably never take offense to an insult issued by an American (especially if they're male), because they are always either in jest or used abstractly to make a point and rarely actually used to insult someone.

So the proper response would have been like what Von suggested, "well I like jynx because (reasons)."

 

[Talpr0ne]

I remember reading this somewere, but it is true that Japanese people don't think as bad about Fascism and Nazism as Western people do? If it is true, why? I'd assume it might have to do something with the fact that Japan and the Third Reich were allies during the IIWW, yet Japan didn't directly experimented Nazism or Fascism.

On the topic of dog/rabbit meat, rabbit is commonly eaten in Italy and I think in the rest of Europe. Not sure about America and Australia though.

 

[Cresselia~~]

jynx: i once recently said "people who put ice in their juice are retarded." Do i really think that juice-icers are really just a subset of the mentally disabled population? Of course not lol. It's just a (rather crude, admittedly) American way of expressing a strong opinion (that I don't like ice in my juice), and I mean no harm to (nor is any received by) an American audience.

In a similar vein, when he said "nobody likes jynx what a shit pokemon lmao" you should not have taken offense, because all he was really expressing is "i personally do not jynx and I haven't talked to many people who do." I, for example, might say "nobody likes the Dallas Cowboys lmfao" despite the fact that the team has millions of fans nationwide because I personally think they're shit and I'm from an area where most people are Ravens or Redskins fans.

Basically the takeaway is that 1) hyperbole is colloquial in America for stating that you strongly hold a position instead of using an adverb like "strongly" and 2) you should probably never take offense to an insult issued by an American (especially if they're male), because they are always either in jest or used abstractly to make a point and rarely actually used to insult someone.

So the proper response would have been like what Von suggested, "well I like jynx because (reasons)."

So even people say "I think you are stupid because you like ___", it is still not rude but a mere expression of a strong opinion?

Looks like it would take a while to get over that fact.

I remember reading this somewere, but it is true that Japanese people don't think as bad about Fascism and Nazism as Western people do? If it is true, why? I'd assume it might have to do something with the fact that Japan and the Third Reich were allies during the IIWW, yet Japan didn't directly experimented Nazism or Fascism.

On the topic of dog/rabbit meat, rabbit is commonly eaten in Italy and I think in the rest of Europe. Not sure about America and Australia though.

I think it's because they didn't experience it.
If you have never experienced something, it's difficult to know how much it hurts.

A lot of Pokemon stuff had gone through editing due to resemblance to Nazi stuff.
(Team Rocket, especially. And there's the Registeel gesture that got edited in translated versions)
Not that they were meant to represent Nazi stuff, but Japanese people just aren't being sensitive as to what hand gestures might remind people of Nazi.

 

[Stratos]

So even people say "I think you are stupid because you like ___", it is still not rude but a mere expression of a strong opinion?

Looks like it would take a while to get over that fact.

i guess it depends on context/tone of voice to an extent. but unless they seem very serious and it's about a serious issue, it's probably just a way to state an opinion. It's off-putting if you're new to it I guess but it's not something I even think about when I do/hear it lol

edit @ below: yeah whistle is right, i misread the quote. i'd only say "you're stupid for liking __" if it was to a close friend.

 

[whistle]

no, I think that is definitely considered rude. normal people do not outright say "I think you are stupid because you like x" unless they are trying to be dicks. there is no way to easily brush off that statement when you hear it. it's a personal attack. I don't think I've ever heard this said with anything but a tone of strong antipathy. on the other hand, if you said "I think people who like x are stupid", it's still extremely untactful if you don't know your audience well, but in this case the emphasis is more on your belief that x is stupid rather than your belief that the person you're talking to is stupid. so it's not as rude. this is more common.

on a side note, why do bananas hate panda express? am I the only who likes it?

 

[Cresselia~~]

no, I think that is definitely considered rude. normal people do not outright say "I think you are stupid because you like x" unless they are trying to be dicks. there is no way to easily brush off that statement when you hear it. it's a personal attack. I don't think I've ever heard this said with anything but a tone of strong antipathy. on the other hand, if you said "I think people who like x are stupid", it's still extremely untactful if you don't know your audience well, but in this case the emphasis is more on your belief that x is stupid rather than your belief that the person you're talking to is stupid. so it's not as rude. this is more common.

on a side note, why do bananas hate panda express? am I the only who likes it?

Googles panda express...
Saw "orange chicken with bacon"...
...No, thank you.

I'm not necessarily a banana though.
Bacon is certainly something Western and has a strong flavor to it. Adding it to orange chicken which is another source of strong flavor, it sounds like the tastes are gonna crash.
And... "Shiitake kale chicken breast". I doubt shiitake kale is anything Chinese. Also, chicken breast? Chicken breast is Western food. Chinese don't eat chicken breasts. We eat chicken wings, thighs, drumsticks, and feet, but NOT chicken breasts.
(And pretty much all the chicken from this restaurant is chicken breast, ewww... no thank you)

 

[KM]

Googles panda express...
Saw "orange chicken with bacon"...
...No, thank you.

I'm not necessarily a banana though.
Bacon is certainly something Western and has a strong flavor to it. Adding it to orange chicken which is another source of strong flavor, it sounds like the tastes are gonna crash.
And... "Shiitake kale chicken breast". I doubt shiitake kale is anything Chinese. Also, chicken breast? Chicken breast is Western food. Chinese don't eat chicken breasts. We eat chicken wings, thighs, drumsticks, and feet, but NOT chicken breasts.
(And pretty much all the chicken from this restaurant is chicken breast, ewww... no thank you)

what happens to all the breasts? now i'm really curious o_O. are breasts like a waste product in China like feet etc are in America?

but yeah the chicken breast is super iconic in western cuisine, and is often put into stuff that it really shouldn't be in (e.g. chinese food). dark meat has so much more flavor anyway, but i find american food to be much more basic / about the toppings than about inherent flavor, so maybe that's it.

but yeah, panda express is basically the epitome of really really bastardized chinese food that only very faintly resembles what it's inspired by