np: XY UU Stage 3 - Calling [Diggersby: BL, Next: Scolipede]

[Nas]

@banning baton pass

So basically, we choose the worst possible solution to the issue at hand for the tradeoff of making a mon that we've already banned usable again? Even ignoring the consequences a blanket ban on baton pass would have on lower tiers, that's fucking terrible logic to be using, given that there are many viable strategies surrounding the move that are not broken. We should only consider banning a move if it is inherently broken/uncompetitive/unhealthy, which baton pass is not.

Back to how we should deal with Smeargle. Since the problem isn't just limited to just Geomancy passing, a 3 stat pass ban is probably the only practical solution I'd consider to just straight out banning Smeargle. Personally I'd rather not deal with a complex ban especially when there's a perfectly fine alternative (banning Smeargle), and there are no abusers of 3 stat passing in the tier besides Smeargle that get enough usage to justify a complex ban.

 

[DiscoDucky]

if we're just talking about denisssss' team, just ban geomancy. In UU, it is broken on 100% of all pokemon that use it in UU

 

[Schpoonman]

Whatever happens, it needs to happen soon.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-161745281

I had this match a few hours ago, and like I wrote yesterday, there is literally nothing you can do to stop it barring your opponent royally fucking up. If he had Spored or Taunted Swampert like he should have, I would have lost, and there was absolutely jack shit I could do about it.

 

[Sleepless]

Whatever happens, it needs to happen soon.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-161745281

I had this match a few hours ago, and like I wrote yesterday, there is literally nothing you can do to stop it barring your opponent royally fucking up. If he had Spored or Taunted Swampert like he should have, I would have lost, and there was absolutely jack shit I could do about it.

I'm sick of posts stating there is nothing to do against GeoPass dedicated teams because there are, UU viable, ways to beat it. I'm not arguing anti-ban but I am arguing there are ways to safely work around them!

 

[Schpoonman]

How would you beat it, then?

 

[pipasonze]

I'm sick of posts stating there is nothing to do against GeoPass dedicated teams because there are, UU viable, ways to beat it. I'm not arguing anti-ban but I am arguing there are ways to safely work around them!

Yes, but there are also teams that are otherwise viable but can't face these geopass teams. Their existence affects teambuilding.
Also, geopass teams require almost no skill to use. You know exactly what your opponent is going to do and many times you still can't stop them.

 

[Bouff]

how does banning geomancy solve the problem? you do realize smeargle could just pass shell smash and qdance boosts, right?

banning three-stat pass boosts doesn't solve much either (although i was the one to bring that up originally in irc..i think), and we create a complex ban that isn't even needed, and will only be needed unless gorebyss + espeon becomes a problem (which from what ive seen, it hasn't). pretty much the best solution is banning smeargle, and creating a complex ban just to keep its less viable sets in the tier is a stupid idea and makes it more complicated than it needs to be.

 

[Sleepless]

How would you beat it, then?

post.

Yes, but there are also teams that are otherwise viable but can't face these geopass teams. Their existence affects teambuilding.
Also, geopass teams require almost no skill to use. You know exactly what your opponent is going to do and many times you still can't stop them.

Well, if a new threat enters the tier, any previously working team might need to adapt. I'm not saying I am pro keeping GeoPass Smeargle because I am not, but I disagree it requires zero skill because it has threats that require skill to play around with. There are predictions need to be made, like against Prankster Taunters.

how does banning geomancy solve the problem? you do realize smeargle could just pass shell smash and qdance boosts, right?

Some think, like me , that QuiverPass or SmashPass smeargle won't be broken in current UU.
At the very least, it deserves a proper test without the move Geomancy.

 

[Sage]

Smeargle has no reason to be run without its baton pass sets like Bouff said, it's hazard sets are increibly medicore since defog is a thing and it usually only gets 1 or 2 layers. Banning the smeargle is the way to go, with QuiverPass and SmashPass it still gets Spore and Magic Coat to prevent conventional ways of dealing with it, it's movepool is better than Venomoth's even if it had better stats, and it is a completely broken strategy that makes many playstyles obsolete.

 

[TrulyDevious]

post.

I don't mind the idea of prankster taunters, but are you seriously gonna force every team to run umbreon, aggron or defensive jirachi? That's fine with stall/balance but what about offense who doesn't have the bulk to take hits from a boosted Espeon? I think that's downright overcentralizing, thus Geomancy needs to go.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

how does banning geomancy solve the problem? you do realize smeargle could just pass shell smash and qdance boosts, right?

Pass Def drops to Espeon and see what happens; the reason Geomancy is infinitely better is because it makes you bulkier.

I mentioned this on a thread in the OU forums: Quiver Dance means Smeargle has to use an extra turn, and passing 3/1/1/1 to Espeon is not anything like passing 3/2/2/2; Stored power is then half as powerful. And on something as frail as Smeargle, that extra turn counts. I do believe banning Geomancy would be a course of action at least worth looking into, one with zero impact on anything but Smeargle. I could totally be wrong though, seeing as Smeargle then doesn't need to use Power Herb, and can use Sitrus/Chople berry or something.

A flat ban on Baton Pass is completely reckless though. It kills other strategies in UU (as homo as QuiverPass and SmashPass are, there has been very little talk of doing anything about it, and NastyPass Celebi and the like are in no way broken) and affects lower tiers. Smeargle or Quiver Dance/Geomancy+Baton Pass (in the context of dEnIsSsS' team, SmashPass is utter garbage) are much more rational bans.

At any rate I do think something needs to be done, the power level of UU is just too low to prevent Smeargle from passing reliably. It also doesn't 'feel' like how the game is supposed to be played; I know that's subjective, but the best way I can explain it is that you could probably write a bot that uses this team and ladders, and it would win most of its games. You really can't do that with any other team unless you're Tarn Adams or some shit. There's next to no prediction required, and there's very little room on the opponent's part to outplay it. You know exactly how the team works, the moveset of every single mon on the team, and what the opponent is going to do, and yet it still beats you unless you're using some garbage like Oblivious Lum Berry Roar Piloswine. It's ridiculous.

 

[Ernesto]

Why are you passing Def drops tho? Unless you're switching in on Sticky Web or as they Defog (you have Taunt mons on the team for a reason), White Herb is a completely viable item on Beagle... You're right on QD needing one more turn tho, meaning the opponent has one more turn to do what they can to disrupt you, but I don't really see how SS + White Herb is that much different from Geo + Power Herb. Sure, you're weaker to special hits, but between Memento and Light Screen that part should be fixed to an extent. Stored Power will deal the same amount of damage at the end of the day.

 

[Skankovich]

If smash pass smeargle would be an issue, why wouldnt any other smashpass user be? Gorebyss is bulkier and so could run white herb easily, especially with the tailwing+screens+memento support Smeargle gets from dedicated teams, and it can also boost its defenses with Barrier and Amnesia if needs be. Banning smeargle doesn't really to anything to smash pass.

 

[Mahmudkipz]

Smeargle is faster and get Magic Coat/Sleep Inducing Moves/its own Taunt to avoid getting Taunted while still being able to hold a White Herb wheras Gorebyss has to choose one of the Mental/White Herb.

 

[Patrick1088]

If smash pass smeargle would be an issue, why wouldnt any other smashpass user be? Gorebyss is bulkier and so could run white herb easily, especially with the tailwing+screens+memento support Smeargle gets from dedicated teams, and it can also boost its defenses with Barrier and Amnesia if needs be. Banning smeargle doesn't really to anything to smash pass.

I ran smeargle and gorebyss before the baton pass nerf on dark horse teams. Together, they formed my 2 wincons to any of my sweepers (zangoose and queen at the time).

But, once smeargle got bumpedbup to OU, i tried the same team and it just didnt work as well. Gorebyss base 55speed is such a letdown. At +2, all common scarfers still outspeed it including timid rotom-c/h and up. The amount of pokes that can cripple it with trick, priority tqunt are just astounding. Magic coat/taunt/spore reqlly give smeargle the edge over all boost passers. with tailwind, smeargle hits 546 speed with +speed 252evs. This is faster than jolly 252 evs mega aero and its faster than scarf shao. +2 gore hits 446 btw with tailwind.

So, the problem lies in smeargle since it has several boostingoptions (geo, smash, shift gear, qd) and ways around its usual checks (spore, magic coat). It can run sash, power herb, mental herb, etc..

Even if espeon is only based a qd boost, it can still calm mind and get the boost to stored power easily.

Edit: ninja'd by Mahmudkipz

 

[TrulyDevious]

So, the problem lies in smeargle since it has several boostingoptions (geo, smash, shift gear, qd) and ways around its usual checks (spore, magic coat). It can run sash, power herb, mental herb, etc..

Even if espeon is only based a qd boost, it can still calm mind and get the boost to stored power easily.
Edit: ninja'd by Mahmudkipz

1) Smeargle's boosting options aren't very metagame-breaking so we can afford to keep them. (anything not Geo, Smash or Quiver)

2) Espeon falls to basically any at least neutral powerful STAB physical attack so that isn't much of a very convincing argument.

I'm sick of posts stating there is nothing to do against GeoPass dedicated teams because there are, UU viable, ways to beat it. I'm not arguing anti-ban but I am arguing there are ways to safely work around them!

It's not safe when you're forcing offense to run Umbreon, defensive Jirachi, defensive Aggron and phazers.

 

[Patrick1088]

TrulyDevious regarding the physical attack espeon, a +3 def is tough to break especially when espeon is going to 1 or 2hko the entire tier with a 200bp stored power from behind a sub that cant be phazed. The only poke that can probably live the stored power/dazzling gleam coverage is av metagross, sp def rachi, sp def umbreon wbich as you pointed out would extremely restrict your team options.

But, my argument regarding the boosting moves is that its not worth just banning geomancy, etc., because smeargle can do the same thing with shift gear and quiver dance pass. So, the choices of what to suspect would come down to smeargle or baton pass itself. Now that im thinking about it more, it may be baton pass thats borked if you look at venomoth and scolipede with potential passers in combusken, etc.. its the common trait that pushes them over the edge more so in the case of veno and scoli since combusken is pretty meh. If you suspect baton pass, youll find smeargle to drop immensely since its only niche would be hazard setter or something of thr sort.

 

[President Shinra]

But, my argument regarding the boosting moves is that its not worth just banning geomancy, etc., because smeargle can do the same thing with shift gear and quiver dance pass. So, the choices of what to suspect would come down to smeargle or baton pass itself. Now that im thinking about it more, it may be baton pass thats borked if you look at venomoth and scolipede with potential passers in combusken, etc.. its the common trait that pushes them over the edge more so in the case of veno and scoli since combusken is pretty meh. If you suspect baton pass, youll find smeargle to drop immensely since its only niche would be hazard setter or something of thr sort.[/USER]

Not to sound mean, but that's not a great argument. For one, you are aware that banning Baton Pass gives a blanket Baton Pass ban to RU and NU. And really, is that necessary? There's nothing with Baton Pass that's even close to borked down there. Also, Venomoth and Scolipede are already banned, Smeargle may be banned, Combusken isn't even close to as good as those two, and most other things are like NastyPass Celebi, Eeveelutions, and other things which either only pass one stat or use it purely to gain momentum.

Honestly, I don't see the point of suspecting Baton Pass. If you want to do anything, suspect Smeargle or suspect Geomancy.[/user]

 

[Patrick1088]

Not to sound mean, but that's not a great argument. For one, you are aware that banning Baton Pass gives a blanket Baton Pass ban to RU and NU. And really, is that necessary? There's nothing with Baton Pass that's even close to borked down there. Also, Venomoth and Scolipede are already banned, Smeargle may be banned, Combusken isn't even close to as good as those two, and most other things are like NastyPass Celebi, Eeveelutions, and other things which either only pass one stat or use it purely to gain momentum.

Honestly, I don't see the point of suspecting Baton Pass. If you want to do anything, suspect Smeargle or suspect Geomancy.[/user]

Smeargle would be easier to ban youre right. But, like i said before banning geomancy wont change a thing. Smeargle can do the same thing with quiver dance or shift gear with memento/dual screens.if it passes to espeon with just a +3, espeon can still calm mind boost itself so that solve the problem of losing the boosts for stored power.

The only reazon i mentioned suspect bp was that its the one trait that multiple suspects/banned pokes share.

Regarding RU or NU, based on wbat Ive seen in the past, the council doesnt make decisions and keep them in mind tbh. Venomoth was lower than UU and got banned and it affect the lower tiers as well, but it had to get done to make UU a better game. So, i wouldnt past them to do a blanket ban on bp instead of banning multiple pokes when their niche is passing...

 

[TM13IceBeam]

Well, iirc Venomoth was pretty ridiculous in NU during its brief stay, and it was also considered S rank on RU's initial viability rankings. If anything, there was a realistic chance that Venomoth would have been given the boot anyway if UU didn't get to banning it first.

Also, killing Baton Pass means killing legitimate strategies, such as dry passing (aka celebi, vaporeon) and other non broken strats like sdpass/nastypass etc.

 

[Patrick1088]

Well, iirc Venomoth was pretty ridiculous in NU during its brief stay, and it was also considered S rank on RU's initial viability rankings. If anything, there was a realistic chance that Venomoth would have been given the boot anyway if UU didn't get to banning it first.

Also, killing Baton Pass means killing legitimate strategies, such as dry passing (aka celebi, vaporeon) and other non broken strats like sdpass/nastypass etc.

Im completely aware of the dry pass. It allows espeon to safely switch out with little fear of pursuit unless its scarfed or really fast like krook and mega aero for example.

Baton pass in that sense is in a similar vein to voltturn that cant be blocked by typing (volt switch case obv).

Most of the banworthy pokes are banned already, so most of the damage is done. At this point it would be easier to just suspect smeargle instead of going back and doing a baton pass suspect when we know veno is broken and thr only other bp viable poke is smeargle.

Weakness policy and nastypass are good wincons, but those pokes can be checkded, rk than geomancy/cg boosted espeon so the fault is more in smeargle rather than celebi and toge.

On a separate note, how is everybody feeling about togekiss?

 

[Mahmudkipz]

I am still uncertain if Togekiss is broken or not, but it sure is annoying. In between good STAB with 60% flinch chance, wide movepool options and its good typing plus bulk, reliably countering/checking Togekiss is easier said than done. Combine that with its synergy with Dugtrio to trap Flying resist, it is definitely suspect-worthy. But its weakness to rocks, middling speed plus low BP STABs are some very notable flaws.

 

[TrulyDevious]

ScarfRachi and ScarfGross blast through DugKiss like toilet paper. @Mahmudkips Togekiss is also very slow by UU standards and both of them have low physical bulk in a tier riddled by physical titans so it prolly won't be banned, just pretty high up on the viablity rankings.

TrulyDevious regarding the physical attack espeon, a +3 def is tough to break especially when espeon is going to 1 or 2hko the entire tier with a 200bp stored power from behind a sub that cant be phazed. The only poke that can probably live the stored power/dazzling gleam coverage is av metagross, sp def rachi, sp def umbreon wbich as you pointed out would extremely restrict your team options.

Passing two boosts to Espeon from Smeargle is easier said than done because the latter is slow as fuck, the Focus Sash/Mental Herb will have been broken before Dog manages to pass, so as mentioned before Baton Pass isn't as broken/autowincon as you might think.

EDIT: is it possible to ban move(s) just for one tier or does it have to blanket all standard metas?

 

[KM]

a move ban affects the highest tier that decides it and all tiers below

 

[President Shinra]

Passing two boosts to Espeon from Smeargle is easier said than done because the latter is slow as fuck, the Focus Sash/Mental Herb will have been broken before Dog manages to pass, so as mentioned before Baton Pass isn't as broken/autowincon as you might think.

EDIT: is it possible to ban move(s) just for one tier or does it have to blanket all standard metas?

The Smeargle set that people are talking about is the Geomancy set, and it always comes in with at least one Screen, Tailwind and the opponent at -2/-2 offenses. So it being slow and frail doesn't matter too much, and setting up one Geomancy and one Cotton Guard is easy peasy.