It gets moonlight, which while albeit unrelaible, is still recovery
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Pokémon Medicham
- Thread starter Ash Borer
- Start date
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Yeah. Cress is probably the best answer to Medicham imaginable, thanks to Moonlight. It's also kind of hilarious that an uninvested Cresselia 3HKOs Mega Medicham, so it isn't not like it'll be able to fight back. It also is able to use Reflect to help its teammates handle Medicham. The only mons that might be better than Cress at beating Cham are Mew and Bro. Mew can burn it and has better recovery, but if it doesn't use Night Shade, it'll be a lot weaker than Cress. Bro has the best ability for handling Medicham, and also is the most powerful of the three, which is nice.
Overall I kinda think Medicham is one of the main reasons bulky Psychic-types are gaining popularity. While in other tiers the Psychic-type is made fun of defensively, in OU it's actually decent, pretty much only because it resists Mega Medicham's STAB moves.
I haven't been impressed by Megacham. As far as wall breaking goes, Megacross and Megavoire do it much better, and both have means of getting through Subs. Also, I've always found this set better than Megacham.
Mienshao@Choice Band/Life Orb
Reckless
Jolly/Naive 252 At / 252 Spd
~ HJK
~ U-Turn
~ Knock Off
~ Poison Jab/Facade
What are the advantages? Mienshao's HJK with CB and Reckless is actually stronger than Megacham's. It also has a base 105 Spd, and doesn't need a turn to Megavolve or eat up a slot. Now admittedly, you need prediction, but CB Knock Off wrecks normal switch ins to HJK like Gengar, Slowbro, Mew, Cresselia, etc. Now I admit Megacham can make up for this somewhat with a secondary STAB and some decent coverage, but I think he's a tough sell to rationalize.
Mienshao@Choice Band/Life Orb
Reckless
Jolly/Naive 252 At / 252 Spd
~ HJK
~ U-Turn
~ Knock Off
~ Poison Jab/Facade
What are the advantages? Mienshao's HJK with CB and Reckless is actually stronger than Megacham's. It also has a base 105 Spd, and doesn't need a turn to Megavolve or eat up a slot. Now admittedly, you need prediction, but CB Knock Off wrecks normal switch ins to HJK like Gengar, Slowbro, Mew, Cresselia, etc. Now I admit Megacham can make up for this somewhat with a secondary STAB and some decent coverage, but I think he's a tough sell to rationalize.
That's cool and all, but I just want to point out that meinshao's HJK with LO and Reckless does not have greater power than MMedi's HJK. Meinshao with LO and reckless gives it an effective attack stat of 544.4, while MMedi has an attack stat of 598. Yes, with choice band, it does have greater power than medicham, (628 attack) but note, that is a CHOICE BAND.
I'm sure having greater power than medicham with a choice band is nothing big, and many pokemon can have a greater attack with CB. I mean, off the bat I can name CB scizor, which can shoot off priority bullet punches at a mind-numbing effective 886 attack stat (factoring in CB and Techie). That wouldn't make Meinshao or MMedi bad wallbreakers.
MMedi, you see, has an effective choice band, no, better than a choice band, along with a speed increase, and full 4 move choice! With that, it can also set up substitutes, making up for it's subpar bulk, AND protecting it from burns without forcing it to run a coverage-limiting move (facade). Now, in my opinion, that should be impressive, no?
If you are using Megacham as a wallbreaker, I'm inferring he's outclassed and with less opportunity cost in some cases. I'm aware LO isn't as strong, it's why I specifically stated CB outperforms it.
And actually yes, outpowering Megacham's HJK is actually a remarkable feat with +0 stat boosts, it is one of the absolute strongest one-turn moves in the game. I'm saying you can receive that benefit, still have a mega available, and also achieve a higher speed tier which comes in handy against Landorus-I for example. Megacham also has to megavolve to get that 100 speed tier, which can be problematic if you happen to be in front of a Jolly Kyurem-B for example.
Mienshao also has the perfect two moves to compensate for HJK and punish Psychic/Ghost switch ins and that's Knock Off and U-Turn. Knock Off will just outright maul Cresselia and Mew coming in. You also have the ability to use U-Turn if they lave a Latias or Thundurus that is faster than you, and maintain your advantage. Requires prediction sure, but Megacham fairs no better. But at least Megacham crushes Mega Venusaur with STAB Zen Headbutt.
And again for Mega Wallbreakers, Mega Heracross is substantially bulkier and DGAF about Substitutes, nor does Mega Gardevoir who also has amazing support moves to protect and buff herself. They also don't have a penalty of self-annihilation from HJK missing and crashing.
And actually yes, outpowering Megacham's HJK is actually a remarkable feat with +0 stat boosts, it is one of the absolute strongest one-turn moves in the game. I'm saying you can receive that benefit, still have a mega available, and also achieve a higher speed tier which comes in handy against Landorus-I for example. Megacham also has to megavolve to get that 100 speed tier, which can be problematic if you happen to be in front of a Jolly Kyurem-B for example.
Mienshao also has the perfect two moves to compensate for HJK and punish Psychic/Ghost switch ins and that's Knock Off and U-Turn. Knock Off will just outright maul Cresselia and Mew coming in. You also have the ability to use U-Turn if they lave a Latias or Thundurus that is faster than you, and maintain your advantage. Requires prediction sure, but Megacham fairs no better. But at least Megacham crushes Mega Venusaur with STAB Zen Headbutt.
And again for Mega Wallbreakers, Mega Heracross is substantially bulkier and DGAF about Substitutes, nor does Mega Gardevoir who also has amazing support moves to protect and buff herself. They also don't have a penalty of self-annihilation from HJK missing and crashing.
And I specifically stated why CB doesn't outperform it... like I said, it's Choice band. So many things in OU have a greater effective stat than mega medicham thanks to CB. That doesn't necessarily make them better...
And megacham doesn't need U-Turn when substitute is standard on it. It can stay in on latias/thundurus and possibly KO it while it tries to break sub... which is just as good, isn't it?
And mentioning Cresselia and Mew is rather unnecessary, they're both good pokemon, sure, but since they're RU and UU respectively, it won't be seen to often as people will turn to other OU defensive pokemon more suitable for their role in the different environment of the OU tier. They're both hard counters to medicham, maybe, but mew though...
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 194-228 (48 - 56.4%) -- 32% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Apparently the usage spread for mew is Will-o-Wisp, knock off, a recovery move and a filler, with 0 defense EVs (according to the calculator). Will o Wisp won't get to medicham because of substitute, and... dude. You can 2HKO a pokemon with 100/100 defenses with a resisted move because lol.
Cresselia which walls it completely and hard, but it's not really suited for OU, or so the community thinks, since it's fallen down to RU. Don't ask me why or how, I don't use cresselia, and I don't play RU. And it looks like a pretty decent mixed wall to me. Uhh... knock off/pursuit weakness?
Lastly, Note that MegaVoir can only run one set at a time lol, so it can't wallbreak and cripple stall at the same time. Chansey can hold it's own against megavoir, getting 3HKO'd by psyshock which is okay, then again it's CHANSEY. Apart from that it rips apart standard specially defensive walls
Mega heracross being able to defeat medicham 1v1 doesn't matter much. And anyway...
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Zen Headbutt vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Mega Heracross: 390-458 (125.4 - 147.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Most walls and stallers don't carry substitute save for gliscor and lolleechseedsash "stall" whimsicott so that wouldn't matter much either. And Mega Medicham outspeeds pretty much every wall and then some with that 100 speed, which is why it's chosen as a wallbreaker over megachomp, megacross and buddies. I can see why you brought up megavoir though.
Well Mew is about to be OU, so that isn't exactly true. I can see what you mean by Cress though; despite how good it is, it isn't common.
Huh. I'm not surprised. Still not a counter to megacham, though. Not so good at it, anyway.
Right. It works in a pinch, but it's better as a check, considering Knock Off doesn't break a sub, and it can be 2hkod after rocks. However, if it uses Ice Beam, it can break the sub, and if cham doesn't use sub, Mew can WoW away.
Ok, several reading comprehension issues there.
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Electric: 303-357 (79.5 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Electric: 318-375 (83.4 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Teravolt Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Electric: 307-363 (80.5 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Electric: 290-342 (76.1 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Solar Power Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Electric in Sun: 366-432 (96 - 113.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Mienshao Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 308-364 (76.2 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Mienshao U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 224-264 (55.4 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Mienshao Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 222-262 (54.9 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Mienshao Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 150-178 (37.1 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Mienshao can always 2HKO standard stall breaker Mew with Knock Off and even has a very good chance of 2HKOing max/max Mew with Stealth Rock down. You could also just as well U-Turn, get Mew below 50% and get a good set up sweeper in place.
And I never said anything about Heracross and Medicham going 1v1, that's irrelevant. Heracross is better for having far better bulk, Swords Dance, and his Skill Link attacks being able to break through Subs, Focus Sash and Sturdy users.
Again, virtually all the praise you've given to Medicham is outperformed by something else. Describe what's uniquely good about him.
Actually no. Virtually nothing is stronger than Megacham's HJK in OU even with Choice Band except Mienshao and a few weather boosted attacks. That's the whole allure of Megacham in the first place, so Mienshao's outpowering it is no small feat.
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Electric: 303-357 (79.5 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Electric: 318-375 (83.4 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Teravolt Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Electric: 307-363 (80.5 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Electric: 290-342 (76.1 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Solar Power Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Electric in Sun: 366-432 (96 - 113.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
I never stated U-Turn was a necessity, but it's clearly an advantage that Mienshao has. Why? Because two defensive types that you'd switch into a Fighting move, U-Turn is SE against for one. Second, you get to pick your matchup. You know how easy it is to Pursuit trap Gengar, Latias, Mew etc. when you U-Turn to Bisharp or Tyranitar?
Again, Mienshao's HJK is even stronger, so showing damage calcs for Megacham's HJK is moot. Also...
252 Atk Choice Band Mienshao Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 308-364 (76.2 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Mienshao U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 224-264 (55.4 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Mienshao Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 222-262 (54.9 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Mienshao Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 150-178 (37.1 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Mienshao can always 2HKO standard stall breaker Mew with Knock Off and even has a very good chance of 2HKOing max/max Mew with Stealth Rock down. You could also just as well U-Turn, get Mew below 50% and get a good set up sweeper in place.
A simple combination of Hyper Voice and Taunt is all Gardevoir needs to walk all over a majority of Stall pokemon, with a the addition of Psyshock, Substitute, Calm Mind, Focus Blast and Wish do do numerous other things.
And I never said anything about Heracross and Medicham going 1v1, that's irrelevant. Heracross is better for having far better bulk, Swords Dance, and his Skill Link attacks being able to break through Subs, Focus Sash and Sturdy users.
Again, virtually all the praise you've given to Medicham is outperformed by something else. Describe what's uniquely good about him.
why the fuck are you spamming calcs when Reckless CB Mienshao isn't even good lol
Like Mienshao isn't very good to begin with but at least use Scarf or Regenerator LO.
Like Mienshao isn't very good to begin with but at least use Scarf or Regenerator LO.
Because I think there are a million better scarfers and Regenerator LO is horribly weak and shitty. And if the main draw of Megacham is that obscene HJK damage, then I'm pointing out you can get a similar result for a lower opportunity cost. I've had at least as good yet always better performance when I toy with Mienshao, and I'm asking outside of getting Mega Venusaur, what exactly makes it worth picking him over the others?
because it's not just HJK
it gets ice punch to destroy lando, gliscor, and bulky grounds. zen headbutt to destroy mega venu and fairies. thunder punch for bulky waters and skarmory. fake out + bullet punch for pseudo 80bp priority. and a fucking sexy sub+drain punch set that couldn't possibly be pulled off with a choice band
mienshao cannot do any of these things. and the one thing it can do, it needs to lock itself into a super risky move with protect being a fairly common move in OU
Mienshao's extra 5 points of speed don't mean much when running Band either. Not having to win a speed tie with Yzard is cool, but things like Garchomp and Staraptor are frequently scarfed, Xzard frequently runs DDance/Tailwind, and Landorus-I either needs to be at around <2/3 HP or requires Naive LO HP Ice + SR damage or 88 SpA EVs for a guaranteed KO. Megacham not being choice locked, having a second STAB type, and having great coverage as well as the ability to use Substitute is worth quite a bit more than a slightly stronger HJK and not needing the mega slot.
In Mienshao's defense, I loved scarf 'shao on cart for stuff like M-Kang, M-Luke, and DDancers/other scarfers. If we're talking band or LO though, I'd rather just use Megacham.
In Mienshao's defense, I loved scarf 'shao on cart for stuff like M-Kang, M-Luke, and DDancers/other scarfers. If we're talking band or LO though, I'd rather just use Megacham.
Sorry for being so off-topic but do you guys think Mega Medicham will receive a competition from Mega Gallade? I know we know very little about it (ability, stats) but it would be pretty hard to mess up a decent poke like Gallade who only needs a little push to be OU material.
We dont know its new bst nor its ability. I hope it stay with its same typing as a slap in the face for the fairy fanboys. But even if he doesnt have the brutal power of MMcham he will have one of the most disruptive movepools in the realn of Megas, I can fut 3 wailords in there man.
We probably shouldn't talk about Mega Gallade right now, since we don't have any confirmation, but I doubt it will severely impact Mega Medicham, as Gallade would need Adaptability or something like that to match it's wallbreaking power.
If anything, Mega-Cham is still going strong, whatever set it's running (barring Drain Punch sets with FO)
If anything, Mega-Cham is still going strong, whatever set it's running (barring Drain Punch sets with FO)
And bullet punch to top it. Dont forgetvthe pseudo 80 priority.
It's very unlikely Gallade would be able to match Medicham's ridiculous power. Gallade has special bulk and a colorful movepool though.
That's all that can really be said right now.
That's all that can really be said right now.
Mega Gallade's ability is inner focus.....
yep, GF fucked it up, forget I ever said anything >_>
yep, GF fucked it up, forget I ever said anything >_>
If we go by Mega Gardevoir's stat boosts we're looking at something like... 68 / 165 / 65 / 85 / 135 / 100 with Close Combat, Swords Dance, Knock Off, Shadow Sneak, WoW, Hypnosis, and Earthquake as well as basically every other move Mega Medicham learns. Mega Medicham's High Jump Kick hits with a shocking 51% more power than Mega Gallade's Close Combat but Gallade has the bulk and movepool to run multiple sets (and after a Swords Dance hit with 33% more power than Medicham could ever hope for).
Mega Gallade will one scary motherfucker.
The official site says Gallade is getting a attack and speed boost, so its safe to assume that both these stats will get more than a +20 boost. That will give it some value over Medichan. It won't hit as hard but it has a more speed (so harder to revenge kill), a better move-pool and more special bulk. That should give medichan genuine competition.
Mega-Lopunny will also be a rival who gets big attack and speed boosts. It will probably be the weakest attacker but the fastest and it has perfect coverage from scrappy HJK and return. Come ORAS we will have a choice in going for extreme power (medichan), speed and reliability (Lopunny) or something in-between (Gallade)
Mega-Lopunny will also be a rival who gets big attack and speed boosts. It will probably be the weakest attacker but the fastest and it has perfect coverage from scrappy HJK and return. Come ORAS we will have a choice in going for extreme power (medichan), speed and reliability (Lopunny) or something in-between (Gallade)
Actually, I think they mean that Attack and Speed are the ONLY stats being increased, due to the way they explained M-Sharpedo's and M-Camerupt's stat changes. So, even if they give M-Gallade only 15 more Spd (to make it 100) it'll still be massive competition, with the colorful movepool and bulk, while still hitting pretty damn hard, albeit not reaching MegaCham's levels. If I'm right with those being the only two stats increased, even with Inner Focus, It's pretty much impossible for GF to screw him up.
They give megas 100 extra stats so there is no way all of it will go to just its attack and speed.
I give Gallade that it has better movepool and could setup swords dance but Medicham has the immediate unreal offense pressure so Gallade will still probably be outclassed.
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