Resource XY NU Viability Ranking

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Why is Carracosta so high up? I mean I used to be a big fan of the defensive Solid Rock set with SR and what not but I always considered it more of a gimmick mon... as a Shell Smash sweeper it is evidently outclassed by Barbaracle who is actually really good in the current offensive metagame. Why? Because of this:

+2 252+ Atk Tough Claws Barbaracle Cross Chop vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 280-330 (95.8 - 113%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Carracosta can't do that besides lol mixed with HP Fire. I suggest that Barbaracle moves up to B+ while Carracosta moves to B.
 
Liarliarpantsonfire said:
Why is Carracosta so high up? I mean I used to be a big fan of the defensive Solid Rock set with SR and what not but I always considered it more of a gimmick mon... as a Shell Smash sweeper it is evidently outclassed by Barbaracle who is actually really good in the current offensive metagame. Why? Because of this:

+2 252+ Atk Tough Claws Barbaracle Cross Chop vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 280-330 (95.8 - 113%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Carracosta can't do that besides lol mixed with HP Fire. I suggest that Barbaracle moves up to B+ while Carracosta moves to B.
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The biggest reason Carracosta is higher than Barbaracle is its access to Aqua Jet. This not only protects it from Sucker Punches while sweeping, but more importantly gives it utility outside of Smashing. Aqua Jet lets Costa actually check stuff like weakened Fire-types and Archeops, which Barbaracle cannot risk switching into without blowing its chances to sweep and be of any use against more offensive teams. Unlike Barbara, if Costa cannot find the chance to set up against offensive teams, it can remain useful by picking stuff off with its priority. There is also that defensive set you said it can pull off, further increasing its utility.
 
I support keeping both Typh and Pyroar in A+. What Typhlosion has over Pyroar, which is Eruption, and lack or Normal-typing (less scared of Gurdurr) are significant. Soulgazer has already covered most of it, but I just want to say that I agree with him 100%.

I do have a few suggestions of my own though.

Rampardos up to C from D+. I've been using Rampardos a lot lately, and just like in BW, Mold Breaker is great on a hazard lead. You can OHKO most Crustle outright, preventing them from getting hazards, which is huge on its own. But you can also set up Stealth Rock on teams with Xatu, without having to predict. Easing up on a need for prediction makes Rampardos a great hazard setter on teams that absolutely need to get Stealth Rock up, and its unique in its ability to do so. It still has issues with other hazard setters, and loses to Sandslash (which is still really common fsr), but it deserves at least C-rank in the current metagame.

Another one I'd like to see is Dusknoir being added to somewhere in the C-/D+ range. It has a niche as being the best physical Ghost now that Spiritomb is RU, and its able to do decently well against NU spinners. its CB set is definitely decent right now, the lack of a good STAB move really sucks, but due to its great bulk and being the only decent physical attacking ghost (Gourgeist doesnt count, its movepool is even more shit), I think it deserves a spot on the viability rankings
 
Raseri said:
Another one I'd like to see is Dusknoir being added to somewhere in the C-/D+ range. It has a niche as being the best physical Ghost now that Spiritomb is RU, and its able to do decently well against NU spinners. its CB set is definitely decent right now, the lack of a good STAB move really sucks, but due to its great bulk and being the only decent physical attacking ghost (Gourgeist doesnt count, its movepool is even more shit), I think it deserves a spot on the viability rankings
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Every Golurk across the globe wept salty tears this day

I agree with Altaria going to C+. Altaria is a great stop to both offensive Fire-types and I have seen Cloud Nine Draco Meteor hammer weather teams as well.

Also I think I've seen more Eviolite Graveler than Golem ngl
 
Definitely agreeing on keeping Pyroar and Typhlosion in the same rank as like Soulgazer and Raseri already said, while both have advantages over the other, there is not an unequivocally "better one" of the two and they are both A+ worthy.

I also think that Rotom should be bumped to A as it is quite a fantastic Pokemon that provides a lot of support for offensive teams with its Choice Scarf set and can even go bulkier to spread status and better check stuff like Klinklang (it can make up for its paltry stat with its great typing) and Feraligatr.

I also tried Gogoat and I have to say that it is surprisingly decent with entry hazards support and certainly worth of a position around the C rankings

Also remembering the whole BW RU spin blocking tale I can only say that dusknoir sux
 
Dusknoir doesn't beat neither Sandslash nor Kabutops. Golurk has the added utility of getting stab on his EQ, Stealth Rock, electric immunity, and disruptive option in No Guard Dynamicpunch.

I wouldn't be opposed to Dusknoir in C- as long as Golurk stays way above it.
 
I would say low-mid D Rank if anything for Dusknoir. Offensively, Golurk all but completely outclasses with STAB EQ, iron fist, a lot more attack, vs a bit more bulk and shadow sneak. Gourgeist and Dusclops are better in a more defensive roll with Dusclops' added bulk and Gourgeist's leech seed, speed when small, and STAB seed bomb that dents notable spinners, (and Golurk also is notable for having SR). Both stack up better against most of the spinners. Dusknoir's only niche seems to be offensive physical spinblocker, as it'll spinblock better than Golurk, but it's not that good of a mon and there are very little reasons to use it in favour of other ghosts. Putting it among the likes of Armaldo and Metang sounds about right.
 
DUSKNOIR FOR S RANK

I fully support the fact that Pyroar and Typhlosion should stay in the same rank due to interchangeable benefits.

In terms of Dusknoir, its CB set is nigh completely outclassed by Golurk bar access to Trick, which obviously is somewhat of a big deal, but lacking the power, speed, and good STAB that Golurk has is dissipointing. As a bulky pokemon with Will-O-Wisp, outside of sheer fatness, there is little reason to use it over Defensive Rotom and Mismagius imo, one of which has cooler typing and the other taunt.

Also..Just noticed my boy Pelipper with the Swag is in C rank right now is this even real life? Pelipper is amazing and it checks so many physical attackers and is the most reliable defog user in the tier. B- or B at the very least.
 
Brawlfest it isn't "nigh completely outclassed" at all. Dusknoir has 3 things going for it over Golurk. Trick, Shadow Sneak, and bulk. This makes it a better choice for an offensive ghost on certain teams, as it can actually beat Cryogonal instead of just straight up losing, and it also has a better matchup vs Kabutops. In most situations, Golurk will be better, but from my playtesting with Dusknoir, C- rank is definitely fair for it.

Mr. Mime for C pls, no more Tomb = outclassed by Mesprit. Mr Mimes niche was a STAB Dazzling Gleam to hit it.
Kecleon for C+, Protean is really good on it, outside of the standard Fake Out / Shadow Sneak / Sucker Punch, it also has a (kinda shitty) 65 SpA, but when everything is STAB, that is strong enough to use moves such as Fire Blast or Grass Knot to beat counters like Ferroseed or Seismitoad.
 
Brawlfest said:
DUSKNOIR FOR S RANK

I fully support the fact that Pyroar and Typhlosion should stay in the same rank due to interchangeable benefits.

In terms of Dusknoir, its CB set is nigh completely outclassed by Golurk bar access to Trick, which obviously is somewhat of a big deal, but lacking the power, speed, and good STAB that Golurk has is dissipointing. As a bulky pokemon with Will-O-Wisp, outside of sheer fatness, there is little reason to use it over Defensive Rotom and Mismagius imo, one of which has cooler typing and the other taunt.

Also..Just noticed my boy Pelipper with the Swag is in C rank right now is this even real life? Pelipper is amazing and it checks so many physical attackers and is the most reliable defog user in the tier. B- or B at the very least.
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Pelipper is god, so I agree with you there.

As far as Dusknoir goes; don't use it offensively when there's Golurk. That should be pretty obvious :b The defensive set has a couple of niches that warrant using Dusknoir. One of them is Earthquake. Normally you'd think like "Eh, it gets it so might as well use it for coverage" but it actually serves a certain purpose. Dusknoir is really good at crippling switchins with Will-o-Wisp; however, that leaves it bait for stuff like Typhlosion and Pyroar to come in and wreck your day. No longer, because EQ does a ton of damage to them. That's basically the idea and also sets it apart from Golurk, who can't spread burns but gets STAB on EQ. Another niche is Fire Punch. The obvious reason is knocking out Cryogonal which is something Mismagius and Rotom struggle with; again another point for Dusknoir. It also 2HKO's Ferroseed if you burn it on the switch, meaning it can't come in and setup tons of hazards on you. Pain Split provides Dusknoir with reasonable recovery but requires some prediction and smart play to maximize its potential. I've used Dusknoir in LU/RU last gen too for a good amount of time and it's mostly the combination of all these factors that made me use it on a SpikeStacking team. Dusknoir is also just very bulky and can tank some hits when needed and at the very least cripple stuff with burns; I never felt like it was dead weight. It's not a bad pokemon, you just need to be aware of what it's capable of doing for your team and consider what other spinblockers can do. Dusknoir does have some nice features that set it apart from mons like Gourgeist, Golurk, Mismagius and Rotom. The fact that it isn't ranked yet just shows that people are unaware of what it can do. I happened to use it last gen in RU/LU over Spiritomb because not getting 2HKO'd by LO Kabutops was a big deal at the time, so that's saying something considering Tomb was S rank in NU not too long ago. It just did things that Tomb couldn't pull of with a defensive set so that's why I used it and it worked out pretty well. I feel like Dusknoir deserves more than D rank at the very least.
 
Something that may or may not be controversial: I've been noticing that there's some kind of stigma in using certain Pokemon. Like Dusknoir. I'm not gonna be pointing any fingers but a lot of more immature users seem to have this urge to laugh at others for using something that they think isn't good enough to have a spot in their roster: please don't. As you get more mature you'll realize how much of a bum you're being over just a game. Even if you're not consciously being a dick, one of the biggest problems I've seen was especially when some mons gets a bad rap in one tier, and the bad rap follows them to their death, even cross-tier and cross-gen. (BW NU Metang pls, it was always decent in NU.) I mean, there's some mons that consistently get more usage than they're actually worth over multiple generations, so their so called 'noobtrap' ability is very real. And yes, it's good to point out something isn't as good as its usage stat tells you. But that bad rap as "oh thats a shitty mon that a only shitty players use" isn't a good enough reason to completely dismiss everything about it. I know people who do this kind of bad behavior isn't willing to read through more than 3 lines of text so this rant is basically useless, but this always really aggravated me.

I've been gone for 2 years but this malpractice has clearly stuck. Dusknoir being added to the rankings is certainly a step in the right direction. Especially when crap like Persian is ranked, there's no reason for stuff like Dusknoir to be unranked. Is it bad? Yes, it's not the best. I'd most likely use Rotom or Mismagius as a generic Ghost-type to put in my teams. Is it worse than Persian? Oh god pls no. Dusknoir actually isn't outclassed by like, 5 mons in the tier as a bulky physical Ghost-type.

I'm not really someone who decides things in this regard, but I think as the lowest-tier we can afford to have a bit larger C / D-list than other tiers.
 
I would like to see Jynx higher: A- is where I would put it, or maybe B+, but atleast make it higher. Jynx is so good right now; it can run a good lead Focus Sash set, Life Orb to break stuff, Choice Scarf to easily revenge kill and 6-0 some of the standard offensive teams, and even a Sub Nasty Plot set (never tried it though, but I have seen it work).

Choice Scarf in particuliar is so good as it revenge kills +1 Lilligant, Sceptile, Rotom after some Stealth Rock damage (iirc Jynx needs it to switch in twice(?)), Feraligatr can't use Aqua Jet as Jynx is immune while it is comfortably 2HKOed by Psychic, can Lovely Kiss annoying stuff.. it even has Trick to cripple the opponent's team even more (Trick AND Lovely Kiss).

Life Orb breaks through everything with its amazing movepool (Ice, Psychic, Fighting coverage is rly cool, it gets Energy Ball too) letting it OHKO or 2HKO most walls/tanks such as Seismitoad, Vileplume, Probopass, Hariyama, Ferroseed (doesn't enjoy Focus Blast and Lovely Kiss), etc.

As for Focus Sash, it's annoying for offensive teams to face as it will just Lovely Kiss your lead, Nasty Plot or click one of its STABs, and OHKO something. If it gets to put to sleep something without losing its Focus Sash, it will be hard to remove it without losing atleast one Pokemon, and thats if your team is well built (more if you misplay or aren't expecting it). Munchlax, Metang, and Bronzor or other of these things see NO usages so please don't bring those up omg. Also SubPlot kinda work like Focus Sash, but is used more in the midgame while Focus Sash is mostly for early game.

Now I do know that Jynx being amazing might be because people don't prepare for it as much as for other threats, but the fact is that Jynx works really well in this metagame and deserves to be higher. It does have its flaws, such as having a kinda bad defensive typing, shit physical defense, being weak to entry hazards, and being ugly as fuck, but I honestly don't think it is enough to stop Jynx from being higher in the rankings.

I am also supporting Dusknoir getting a rank as Omfuga has been wrecking people with it for a while. Oh and btw it gets Pursuit, which is quite nice for some Shadow Sneak and Pursuit 'mindgames' (who would even expect a Choice Banded Pursuit from Dusknoir anyway loool).
 
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I'm supporting Dusknoir's rise, actually i've already posted a thing about Noir, but it got rejected.
I won't say much about, people already said everything about how Dusknoir is actually an okay mon.
PS: Raseri, Noir has Sucker Punch too, just saying.
 
Supporting jynx for A-. Me and SG were talking about it, and honestly, Jynx has never failed to be a threat. With near-unresisted dual-stab in RU, access to lovely kiss, nasty plot, and a fantastic water immunity, Jynx has no trouble setting up on bulky offense/balance/stall. SG pointed out most pros and cons pretty well, it's just noteworthy that jynx is the only sleep-sweeper (or sleep user in general) that can put grass-types and vullaby to sleep.

Dusknoir is another thing I think is cool. Although I haven't tested anything outside of choice band, cb dusk is surprisingly threatening to a lot of NU teams. Dusknoir has a nice base 100 attack, and even un-STAB earthquakes should be doing enough to threats like Sawk, Dragalge, Seismitoad, Ferroseed, Slurpuff, and Feraligatr to easily wear them down for the rest of the game. Late-game, dusknoir can easily proceed to sweep offensive teams just by clicking shadow sneak. Pursuit is also great for scaring out Mesprit, for example, doing up to 90% with a pursuit. Trick is very good on dusknoir, especially for stall-ish teams, to cripple a wall such as audino. Ice punch or pursuit is usually my favorite last slot, but dusknoir can use a wide variety of physical moves such as fire punch, shadow punch, sucker punch, rock slide, and focus punch. Finally, the last slot can be reserved for will-o-wisp, allowing dusknoir to cripple incoming physical attackers after it's tricked away the choice band. Unfortunately, due to a glitch in showdown teambuilder, Dusknoir cannot run trick + frisk on the same set, so you're forced to run pressure. I've double checked via bulbapedia and pokemon online teambuilder, and the combination should be legal, so I don't know why it's shown as illegal. I'm thinking C+ rather than C- for dusknoir; it's done very well to me and I think it can find a good place on most teams, its bulk allowing it to spinblock kabutops and sandslash.

Finally, I'd like to nominate prinplup. I'm just going to C/P my post from another thread, as it basically states exactly why prinplup finds a cool niche in NU.
Omfuga said:
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Prinplup (M) @ Eviolite
Trait: Torrent
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SDef
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Stealth Rock/Ice Beam
- Defog
- Scald
- Toxic

Prinplup is actually different from a lower-tier Empoleon in quite a few ways. Primarily, Empoleon's typing, Steel/Water, gives it a lot of resistances, as well as an immunity, and is much more suited for specially defensive sets. Prinplup, however, is only a water type; although this leaves it weaker to Poison, Grass, and Normal, Prinplup can wall Fighting- and Ground-types such as Sandslash. Prinplup is one of the only good defoggers in the tier, and although its bulk isn't anything fantastic, access to defog in NU is very important. Prinplup is similar to a Lumineon that can take repeated hits, and set up stealth rocks. If you have another stealth rock setter, or think defog + stealth rock is too redundant, you can run ice beam for coverage on grass- and dragon-types. Scald is primary STAB, with a nice 30% burn chance, and toxic is to cripple walls like Seismitoad, Uxie, and Mesprit.
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Its bulk is surprisingly good on both spectrums, and access to defog + rocks is too good to pass up on. 200 sptack isn't too shabby either. I'm thinking prinplup for C+ or C, but I think it may even be worthy of B-; if you test prinplup you can easily see why it's just so nice to have on any team.
 
Omfuga said:
Supporting jynx for A-. Me and SG were talking about it, and honestly, Jynx has never failed to be a threat. With near-unresisted dual-stab in RU, access to lovely kiss, nasty plot, and a fantastic water immunity, Jynx has no trouble setting up on bulky offense/balance/stall. SG pointed out most pros and cons pretty well, it's just noteworthy that jynx is the only sleep-sweeper (or sleep user in general) that can put grass-types and vullaby to sleep.
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Jynx is indeed a notable threat, but the hazard weakness, horrible frailty to priority attacks, and most notably its now 'only decent' speed (this was considered significantly above average in BW NU) hold it back somewhat. Btw, dunno why you'd bother Kissing Grasses and Vullaby when you can just Ice Beam them. Granted, one less Sucker Punch user in Tomb and one more Aqua Jet user in Tops did manage to lessen the impact of priority, but Jynx has notably less survivability compared to the offensive A- Rank mons. Not too opposed to A-, but B+ seems better for Jynx imo.

Dusknoir is another thing I think is cool. Although I haven't tested anything outside of choice band, cb dusk is surprisingly threatening to a lot of NU teams. Dusknoir has a nice base 100 attack, and even un-STAB earthquakes should be doing enough to threats like Sawk, Dragalge, Seismitoad, Ferroseed, Slurpuff, and Feraligatr to easily wear them down for the rest of the game. Late-game, dusknoir can easily proceed to sweep offensive teams just by clicking shadow sneak. Pursuit is also great for scaring out Mesprit, for example, doing up to 90% with a pursuit. Trick is very good on dusknoir, especially for stall-ish teams, to cripple a wall such as audino. Ice punch or pursuit is usually my favorite last slot, but dusknoir can use a wide variety of physical moves such as fire punch, shadow punch, sucker punch, rock slide, and focus punch. Finally, the last slot can be reserved for will-o-wisp, allowing dusknoir to cripple incoming physical attackers after it's tricked away the choice band. Unfortunately, due to a glitch in showdown teambuilder, Dusknoir cannot run trick + frisk on the same set, so you're forced to run pressure. I've double checked via bulbapedia and pokemon online teambuilder, and the combination should be legal, so I don't know why it's shown as illegal. I'm thinking C+ rather than C- for dusknoir; it's done very well to me and I think it can find a good place on most teams, its bulk allowing it to spinblock kabutops and sandslash.
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Well Dusknoir actually has a discernable, not totally outclassed niche now, but that doesn't particularly mean it has improved enough to suddenly jump 3 tiers. Noir's base 100 Attack is very deceptive, since it is still plagued with unreliable attacks, its strongest attacks being either Earthquake or even Focus Punch idek and its STAB only having a paltry 60 BP after STAB. Unlike Spiritomb, it lacks Dark-typing, which 1) makes potentially good attacks like Sucker Punch and Pursuit much less useful on it, and 2) gives it weaknesses to Dark and Ghost, which is much less favorable than a lone weakness to Fairy. The CB set can't even afford bulk to avoid hitting like a wet towel (due to, you know, its lackluster attacks), or even Will-o-Wisp for that matter. Tops can simply 2HKO Noir with LO Stone Edge, or Waterfall after SR, while Sandslash outspeed Noir to Knock Off its CB, preventing Noir from screwing over Sandslash with Trick or even hurting it at all. Dusknoir's main niche would be fending off Cryogonal (which it does nicely with CB Pursuit unless Cryo is a bulky variant), which no other Ghost aside from Lampent can do. C- is most fitting for Noir.

Finally, I'd like to nominate prinplup. I'm just going to C/P my post from another thread, as it basically states exactly why prinplup finds a cool niche in NU.

394.png
Prinplup (M) @ Eviolite
Trait: Torrent
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SDef
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Stealth Rock/Ice Beam
- Defog
- Scald
- Toxic

Prinplup is actually different from a lower-tier Empoleon in quite a few ways. Primarily, Empoleon's typing, Steel/Water, gives it a lot of resistances, as well as an immunity, and is much more suited for specially defensive sets. Prinplup, however, is only a water type; although this leaves it weaker to Poison, Grass, and Normal, Prinplup can wall Fighting- and Ground-types such as Sandslash. Prinplup is one of the only good defoggers in the tier, and although its bulk isn't anything fantastic, access to defog in NU is very important. Prinplup is similar to a Lumineon that can take repeated hits, and set up stealth rocks. If you have another stealth rock setter, or think defog + stealth rock is too redundant, you can run ice beam for coverage on grass- and dragon-types. Scald is primary STAB, with a nice 30% burn chance, and toxic is to cripple walls like Seismitoad, Uxie, and Mesprit.

Its bulk is surprisingly good on both spectrums, and access to defog + rocks is too good to pass up on. 200 sptack isn't too shabby either. I'm thinking prinplup for C+ or C, but I think it may even be worthy of B-; if you test prinplup you can easily see why it's just so nice to have on any team.
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Wait, how does Prinplup wall Fightings? Anyway, Defog's use in NU is a bit less impactful now that spinning has been made much easier, so one would really have to go out of one's way to consider Prinplup. The biggest issue Prinplup has, along with fellow Water-type Lumineon, is that it does not have reliable recovery at all. It can only Defog a limited number of times, which makes it not worth much more than SR-weak Defoggers that can at least heal with Roost (For the record, Prinplup takes 12% from SR while Leftovers Defoggers takes ~18%, then Prinplup is automatically on the losing end once other hazards are factored into the equation). Lack of recovery also means it cannot wall threats reliably; it can hardly switch into threats and choose whether to Defog or actually deal with its opponent. Bulkier opponents aren't much better for Prinlup to Defog against, since their better survivability means that Prinplup will easily be crippled in the long- (or even short-) run. At least Lumineon has speed, switch-in opportunities in Storm Drain, and momentum-grabbing U-turn, yet it is in D. Prinplup is in no way worthy of C Rank, or B- as you have suggested :/
 
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Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time.

Reading this requirement for A-rank, Jynx fits it perfectly. Regardless of its flaws (poor bulk, and it's speed is better than "only decent"), Jynx is very good at sweeping large portions of the metagame. An immunity to water-attacks, a good base 95 speed for NU, access to nasty plot, a great base 115 special attack, and lovely kiss to top, make Jynx more than fit for A-. As for lovely kiss, Ferroseed is the best grass-type in this tier, and specially defensive easily manages to shrug off an ice beam. In this case, lovely kiss hitting grass-types is very important. On other grass-types that it can OHKO, such as lilligant, Jynx can proceed to put them to sleep in order to set up a free sub, and KO them the turn after.

As for Dusknoir, I'd be fine with anything in the C-range, I'd just like to defend myself a bit in saying dusknoir takes on kabutops. Dusknoir lives any hit from adamant life orb kabutops at up to 66% (disregarding knock off which it rarely has room for), and always OHKOs in return with earthquake. Shadow sneak does up to 40% to kabutops, and can easily 2hko any life orb weak armor variants, as well as getting off about 90% on any life orb kabutops in general, although you'd have to sack dusknoir in the process. I think Noir is best suited at C, and I've already stated the reasons why. It's niche isn't bad, and, on the right team, it can prove to be an effective pokemon.

Prinplup can wall certain fighting types:
252 Atk Primeape Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Prinplup: 103-123 (31.1 - 37.1%) -- 77.8% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Hariyama Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Prinplup: 124-147 (37.4 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Gurdurr Drain Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Prinplup: 72-85 (21.7 - 25.6%) -- 1% chance to 4HKO

Obviously this doesn't classify as hard-stopping them, however, it was worth pointing out that the lack of steel typing allowed prinplup to take them on better. As for ground types, I was referring to Seismitoad, Golurk, and Sandslash, all of which Prinplup takes very well. Most of your post refers to Lumineon being superior, but honestly, lumineon is heavily outclassed by prinplup. Lumineon has storm drain and u-turn, but Prinplup has far superior bulk, superior special attack, access to stealth rock, and a similar water-resistance. Even with Lumineon's leftovers, the bulk difference between the two is still heavily in favor of Prinplup without leftovers. Stealth rock is a huge factor, Prinplup being one of only 2 pokemon in NU to get defog and stealth rock. Finally, you said "For the record, Prinplup takes 12% from SR while Leftovers Defoggers takes ~18%," but that makes no sense. Leftovers defoggers take 6.25%, not 18%, and if they did take 18%, that wouldn't be an advantage over prinplup at all. Prinplup, although it has similar stats, severely outclasses Lumineon in most regards, and I don't think it's a fair comparison. I'm still supporting Prinplup in the C-range.
 
Omfuga said:
Prinplup can wall certain fighting types:
252 Atk Primeape Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Prinplup: 103-123 (31.1 - 37.1%) -- 77.8% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Hariyama Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Prinplup: 124-147 (37.4 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Gurdurr Drain Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Prinplup: 72-85 (21.7 - 25.6%) -- 1% chance to 4HKO

Obviously this doesn't classify as hard-stopping them, however, it was worth pointing out that the lack of steel typing allowed prinplup to take them on better.
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The problem is that Prinplup doesn't make a good response to them; Primeape is really its best matchup against a Fighting and even then things can go sour if Primeape gets a Defiant boost from Defog. The other Fightings can cripple Prinplup with Knock Off, while the Guts Fighting-types simply do not give two shits about Prinplup. Prinplup needs to get lucky with Scald to even have a marginal chance of winning.

Most of your post refers to Lumineon being superior, but honestly, lumineon is heavily outclassed by prinplup. Lumineon has storm drain and u-turn, but Prinplup has far superior bulk, superior special attack, access to stealth rock, and a similar water-resistance. Even with Lumineon's leftovers, the bulk difference between the two is still heavily in favor of Prinplup without leftovers. Stealth rock is a huge factor, Prinplup being one of only 2 pokemon in NU to get defog and stealth rock.
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My post was actually revolving around how Prinplup is outclassed overall as a Defogger, and its role as a Defogger without a Rock weakness is shared by Lumineon. Frankly Defog alone isn't even Prinplup's niche: Prinplup needs Stealth Rock and Defog just to avoid being outclassed: Doing just Stealth Rock means Seismitoad eclipses it, while I'll cover the Defoggers down below.

Finally, you said "For the record, Prinplup takes 12% from SR while Leftovers Defoggers takes ~18%," but that makes no sense. Leftovers defoggers take 6.25%, not 18%, and if they did take 18%, that wouldn't be an advantage over prinplup at all. Prinplup, although it has similar stats, severely outclasses Lumineon in most regards, and I don't think it's a fair comparison. I'm still supporting Prinplup in the C-range.
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I thought it would be obvious, but most Leftovers Defoggers, mainly Pelipper and Mantine, have a Rock weakness, so they take 25-6.25% =~ 18%. The BIG difference is that the Leftovers Defoggers have passive recovery, and even reliable recovery in Pelipper's case, so that damage can be offsetted in due time, plus they float over every other hazard; Prinplup takes a permanent 12% on the switch, and the damage only adds up from there if other hazards are factored in. Frankly I wouldn't even bother with Prinplup at all when other Defoggers are that much better, and can actually reliably wall things.

As for the Lumineon comparison: since both Prinplup and Lumineon, as Defoggers without recovery, fail pretty badly at walling things, Lumineon has more things going for it, such as U-turn, Storm Drain, and most importantly speed, allowing to Defog before getting KOed, unlike Prinplup whose bulk is worn down by the very hazards it wants to Defog.

Prinplup needs Stealth Rock + Defog just to avoid being hopelessly outclassed, but combining two roles into an unreliable user tends to be worse than using two separate Pokes for each role but are more consistent at the job, kind of like using a SR + Spikes Ferroseed when you already have a mon that can use SR. D at best.
 
Prinplup's niche of having both Stealth Rock and Defog is pretty huge since the user essentially has an extra team slot to work with. This does put more pressure on it, but being able to use something other than a dedicated Stealth Rocker is worth it. Additionally, Prinplup is much more useful than other Defoggers early game since it matches up well against Stealth Rock users, due to its lack of a Rock-type weakness unlike Mantine and Pelipper, and can set up its own hazards. In many matches, you'll be able to gain the advantage early, which lessens the need for Prinplup to switch into hazards and become worn down. Nobody is saying that it's an amazing Pokemon, C Rank is more than fair for it.
 
The unique combination of moves can only take a Pokemon so far. Look at Delibird, which has nice moves like Spikes, Destiny Bond, Rapid Spin, Freeze-Dry...yet it's sitting in D and no higher (keep in mind that it has been sitting there before the tier shifts). There also aren't (m)any Stealth Rockers Prinplup wins against that Mantine and especially Pelipper cannot handle to some degree. Stealth Rock and Defog is indeed a coveted niche...if the user can survive long enough to do both consistently (Gligar and Skarmory, anyone?). With Prinplup having absolutely no recovery, it struggles to maintain hazard control, and often has to choose between Stealth Rock OR Defog, especially if the SR user persists on having both fields having SR; the fact that Prinplup is being used is a good sign that its team hates SR more than its opponent does.

Every Prinplup I've seen (~3 :P) either Defogs hazards away and not get Stealth Rock up, or both sides of the field gets littered with Rocks; the cost of maintaining hazard control is too high for Prinplup (like SR + Defog Archeops >.>), as even the weakest of opponents can take advantage of its complete lack of passive recovery to ensure it has little chance to do it again. Oh, and your team also needs to be able to comfortably deal with other damaging hazards too, since not only is Prinplup pretty susceptible to them (unlike other Defoggers), but is also terrible against most of its users.

Stealth Rock + Defog puts too much pressure on Prinplup, and if only one of these moves is needed for a situation then you're automatically missing out on much better users. I mean Ariados can barely set up both Web + Toxic Spikes, but those moves are rare individually so it has merit in C-. On the other hand, one has to go very out of their way to consider Prinplup over two separate but hella more consistent Stealth Rock and Defog users (or even a spinner since that's easier to do now), to the point I would say that it is a somewhat iffy teambuilding choice. That said, I forgot the D Ranks were split as well, so w/e Prinplup can go D+ at best I guess.
 
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Bastiodon from C- to D
Crustle from B+ to A-
Cryogonal from B+ to A-
Dusknoir from unranked to C-
Electivire from B+ to B
Jynx from B to B+
Kangaskhan from A- to A
Kecleon from C to C+
Kricketune from B to B-
Leafeon from C+ to B-
Lopunny from D- to D
Mr. Mime from B- to C
Pelipper from C to B-
Prinplup from unranked to C-
Rampardos from D+ to C
Roselia from C+ to B-
Rotom from A- to A
Tangela from B to B+

it's midnight my time and i have to be up in five hours so i won't be updating the OP tonight (and i'm busy a lot of tomorrow), so yeh. it'll be updated evening tomorrow by the latest. discuss if you agree / disagree with these changes
 
Amarillo said:
Something that may or may not be controversial: I've been noticing that there's some kind of stigma in using certain Pokemon. Like Dusknoir. I'm not gonna be pointing any fingers but a lot of more immature users seem to have this urge to laugh at others for using something that they think isn't good enough to have a spot in their roster: please don't. As you get more mature you'll realize how much of a bum you're being over just a game. Even if you're not consciously being a dick, one of the biggest problems I've seen was especially when some mons gets a bad rap in one tier, and the bad rap follows them to their death, even cross-tier and cross-gen. (BW NU Metang pls, it was always decent in NU.) I mean, there's some mons that consistently get more usage than they're actually worth over multiple generations, so their so called 'noobtrap' ability is very real. And yes, it's good to point out something isn't as good as its usage stat tells you. But that bad rap as "oh thats a shitty mon that a only shitty players use" isn't a good enough reason to completely dismiss everything about it. I know people who do this kind of bad behavior isn't willing to read through more than 3 lines of text so this rant is basically useless, but this always really aggravated me.

I've been gone for 2 years but this malpractice has clearly stuck. Dusknoir being added to the rankings is certainly a step in the right direction. Especially when crap like Persian is ranked, there's no reason for stuff like Dusknoir to be unranked. Is it bad? Yes, it's not the best. I'd most likely use Rotom or Mismagius as a generic Ghost-type to put in my teams. Is it worse than Persian? Oh god pls no. Dusknoir actually isn't outclassed by like, 5 mons in the tier as a bulky physical Ghost-type.

I'm not really someone who decides things in this regard, but I think as the lowest-tier we can afford to have a bit larger C / D-list than other tiers.
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YES YES THANK YOU

For some reason, it seems like players have biases against Pokemon they deem to be overrated. Electivire, Whimsicott, and Dusclops/noir especially have been huge victims of this, in that though they may not be the greatest Pokemon, people seem to be aghast that they might have an actual usage. It makes me sad every time someone who proposes them for a viability ranking somewhere in the lower tiers while actually bringing up good points is almost always shot down by flocks of people saying "lol E-vire is crap bruh."
 
I agree with all these changes except E-Vire change.
Electivire in itself is very reliable, i could even see him being A-.
Due to extreme coverage in both sides, with things like Elementals Punches, Psychic, Flamethrower, Volt Switch, Electric STAB, Hidden Power, and maybe some others moves like a Fighting move or something, Electivire can be very tough to wall, due to the fact that E-Vire is often mixed and you kinda need something with decent mixed bulk in order to beat a majority of E-Vire ( Like, Tangela/Ferroseed if Physical and Altaria if Special, but since E-Vire is more of a mixed threats, they are rarely good switchs-in )
Also, i'd like to say that E-Vire's speed tier is very nice for NU, 95, while not great, is definitly enough to outspeed a majority of threats.
So, i would keep Electivire to B+
 
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Mistress Remilia said:
I agree with all these changes except E-Vire change.
Electivire in itself is very reliable, i could even see him being A-.
Due to extreme coverage in both sides, with things like Elementals Punches, Psychic, Flamethrower, Volt Switch, Electric STAB, Hidden Power, and maybe some others moves like a Fighting move or something, Electivire can be very tough to wall, due to the fact that E-Vire is often mixed and you kinda need something with decent mixed bulk in order to beat a majority of E-Vire ( Like, Tangela/Ferroseed if Physical and Altaria if Special, but since E-Vire is more of a mixed threats, they are rarely good switchs-in )
Also, i'd like to say that E-Vire's speed tier is very nice for NU, 95, while not great, is definitly enough to outspeed a majority of threats.
So, i would keep Electivire to B+
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Considering that Magmortar is B+, hard-to-wall coverage alone isn't quite enough to secure a place in the A Ranks.

EVire's problem has and always was its relative lack of immediate power. As a wallbreaker, its STAB is really not very strong at all; most wallbreakers such as Magmortar, Dragalge, Archeops, and Sawk have very powerful attacks, well over 100 base power, that can do a lot of damage to many neutral opponents. Meanwhile, Electivire's strongest attack is an Electric-type Take Down (which stacks with LO), which sounds a heck of a lot less impressive if one puts it like that. If Electivire faces an opponent it cannot hit super effectively, suddenly it finds that its KOing power drops drastically. Sometimes it has trouble KOing opponents it can hit super effectively.

252 SpA Life Orb Electivire Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Gurdurr: 177-211 (47.3 - 56.4%) -- 81.3% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Electivire Wild Charge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Sawk: 234-277 (80.1 - 94.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Electivire Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Uxie: 148-175 (41.8 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Electivire Wild Charge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mesprit: 177-211 (58.6 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Electivire Wild Charge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Slurpuff: 208-247 (67.9 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Electivire Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ludicolo: 247-292 (82 - 97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Electivire Flamethrower vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Klinklang: 237-281 (83.4 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Electivire Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rotom: 127-151 (52.6 - 62.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Electivire Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Sceptile: 234-278 (83.2 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
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Note that most of these Pokemon are frail offensive attackers, and EVire cannot even OHKO them with a Life Orb boost (ocassionally even with super effective hits), which is just incredibly sad for a 'wallbreaker' to claim. There is also the issue that EVire, unlike most wallbreakers, must hit the foe super effectively to deal the high damage it wants. EVire usually wants Electric STAB, Flamethrower, Hidden Power Grass, Earthquake, and/or Cross Chop (all other moves are simply a luxury), and missing out on any move weakens its matchup against notable Pokes, making its 4MSS much greater than other wallbreakers, but the bottom line is EVire must go mixed to be able to threaten more Pokemon (trust me, any EVire that isn't mixed is just stopped so easily, and is outclassed by better Electric attackers such as Rotom, Raichu, and goddamn Luxray). Being mixed means that EVire must either split EVs or neglect the other attacking stat, both of which don't help its issue of being unable to KO thinsg effectively. The Electric STAB alone is hard to decide since it determines whether EVire can even threaten/touch things like Mismagius, Gurdurr, or Weezing.

EVire is usually considered a wallbreaker and not a 'sweeper' since it does not have the speed necessary to outspeed most of the frailer targets that it can OHKO. It does not have any way to boost its speed outside of Motor Drive (which faces competition with Vital Spirit due to Vivillon's presence), and wielding a Scarf is a bad idea since it cannot make effective use of its coverage, and unlike Rotom it cannot Trick away the Scarf to reaccess its movepool.

I mean EVire isn't a bad wallbreaker, but it's definitely not on par with the likes of Magmortar, Tauros, or even goddamn Ludicolo in terms of wallbreaking ability.
 
Zebraiken said:
Bastiodon from C- to D
Crustle from B+ to A-
Cryogonal from B+ to A-
Dusknoir from unranked to C-
Electivire from B+ to B
Jynx from B to B+
Kangaskhan from A- to A
Kecleon from C to C+
Kricketune from B to B-
Leafeon from C+ to B-
Lopunny from D- to D
Mr. Mime from B- to C
Pelipper from C to B-
Prinplup from unranked to C-
Rampardos from D+ to C
Roselia from C+ to B-
Rotom from A- to A
Tangela from B to B+

it's midnight my time and i have to be up in five hours so i won't be updating the OP tonight (and i'm busy a lot of tomorrow), so yeh. it'll be updated evening tomorrow by the latest. discuss if you agree / disagree with these changes
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I agree with everything on that list minus that trash named Prinplup. Sure it gets defog and rock, but its so middle of the road. D+ at best. 64/102/114 isn't impressive with eviolite compared to some defoggers (togetic), especially with no recovery (which pelipper has for defog). It's also slow and if its Eviolite is knocked off, it sinks to a puny 64/68/76. it has a respectable base 81 spatk. mantine outclasses it as a specially defensive defogger with better speed, special defense stat, and overall a better utility movepool for a defensive defogger (even offensive, i'd take the 1 less spatk for more speed and tankiness). mantine also has better typing (water flying isnt dead to grass). mantine also is not too sad when knock off hits (only hits lefties away). so that leaves chilly the penguin as an offensive or physically defensive defogger. and pelipper, like mantine, is better at that niche, not as weak to knock off, better stats when its lefties are knocked off (and physically defensive mons should be able to take knock offs), reliable recovery (roost), better typing, a marginally better spatk stat, and better speed. also kabutops can spin and is bulky defensively, and can set rocks. it also is a better offensive hazard clearer. of course, prinplup has a niche, and can work, but its seriously d+ rank.
 
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