Tier Shift

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Rain is really good, but has anyone tested sun? I used to use it but havent in a very long time. Also, is it just me or is Goodra with Rest and Hydration a great Special Wall in rain?
Sun is, with out a doubt in my mind, underated. Both Ninetales and Victrebell get plus fifteen boosts while Victini gets to spam sun boosted and banded V-Creates off a 105 stat instead of a 100 stat. That said the problems I have with sun are still consistent with the problems I had with it in fifth gen (when I was primarily a sun user) is that to a degree you lack the variety that rain and sand have for extremely abusive power. For example while sand doubles the spdef of all rock types and doesn't hurt any Pokemon of a decent three types and rain dampens the fire weakness of support mons that are weak to it as well as providing any dry skin mons with dry skin support, sun increases the fire weakness of the chlorophyll abuser and you'll probably end up with multiple fire types (which isn't that best defensively).

That said, there is an insane amount of power in sun and the playstyle is incredibly fun and I would like to spend this sentence urging more people to use it while spamming banded vcreate victini in the sun. Trust me, you'll enjoy it.
 
I just got to the top spot on the ladder today with a rain team. Rain is pretty good right now, so make sure to run checks to it.
Politoed @ Damp Rock
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: null Atk
- Scald
- Encore
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Kabutops @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Waterfall
- Stone Edge
- Swords Dance
- Rapid Spin

Ludicolo @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: null Atk
- Giga Drain
- Scald
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam

Thundurus (M) @ Damp Rock
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 30 HP / null Atk / 30 Def / 30 SpA / 30 SpD
- Rain Dance
- Thunder
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Thunder Wave

Manaphy @ Leftovers
Ability: Hydration
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 Spe
Careful Nature
- Rest
- Surf
- Energy Ball
- Tail Glow

Tornadus-Therian @ Life Orb
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 Def
Timid Nature
- Grass Knot
- Hurricane
- Focus Blast
- U-Turn

Also, I think Regenerator cores could be interesting. Amoongus, Reniculus, Alomomola, Mienshao, Tornadus-T, Tangrowth, and Slowking are all interesting pokemon that could be useful. I will post on this again once I make a Regen abusing team.
 
I just got to the top spot on the ladder today with a rain team. Rain is pretty good right now, so make sure to run checks to it.
Politoed @ Damp Rock
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: null Atk
- Scald
- Encore
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Kabutops @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Waterfall
- Stone Edge
- Swords Dance
- Rapid Spin

Ludicolo @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: null Atk
- Giga Drain
- Scald
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam

Thundurus (M) @ Damp Rock
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 30 HP / null Atk / 30 Def / 30 SpA / 30 SpD
- Rain Dance
- Thunder
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Thunder Wave

Manaphy @ Leftovers
Ability: Hydration
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 Spe
Careful Nature
- Rest
- Surf
- Energy Ball
- Tail Glow

Tornadus-Therian @ Life Orb
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 Def
Timid Nature
- Grass Knot
- Hurricane
- Focus Blast
- U-Turn

Also, I think Regenerator cores could be interesting. Amoongus, Reniculus, Alomomola, Mienshao, Tornadus-T, Tangrowth, and Slowking are all interesting pokemon that could be useful. I will post on this again once I make a Regen abusing team.
Just to add a few thoughts to the regenerator part of the post: I am very interested to see how the Reuniclus turns out (it doesn't really fit my play style too well so I tend to steer away from it) and perhaps for some degree of novelty, I think its worth mentioning that Tangela gets both an eviolite and regenerator while still being decent. Also, never underestimate Tangrowth, it can always run a few different sets that could catch an opponent off guard (like my personal favorite AV Tangrowth). And before I go, I do find the rain team interesting, if I may ask how are Hurricane and Focus Blast together? When I tried both at once it became a situation of if one of the moves could miss they would miss so I'm just curious if at any point you ran into anything similar.
 
Yeah, the misses are annoying outside of rain but I usually didn't have to deal with it. Hurricane is good for rain, and Focus Blast is needed for coverage. Honestly, you could probably put Air Slash in over Grass Knot as GS is situational
 
Sorry for double post, but I have a question. Do we possibly want to unban certain pokemon? I know some other OMs are doing this because the pokemon aren't as good. Do we possibly want to do the same with pokemon like Aegislash?
 
I like the idea of PU being added and PU 'mons gaining 20 points but there would need to be some changes made. Chatot is a monster in tier shift as of now and gaining a bigger boost to its stats would cause some issues. Then of course there is Slaking. Even with Truant does anybody really want a 790 BST Slaking running around? On the other hand some Pokemon would greatly benefit from the larger boost.
 
Sorry for double post, but I have a question. Do we possibly want to unban certain pokemon? I know some other OMs are doing this because the pokemon aren't as good. Do we possibly want to do the same with pokemon like Aegislash?
since Uber is a tier we'd have to unban them all and either lower their stats or increase every other pokemons stats even more(a lot of ppl have been asking for this so you oughta be familiar with the concept already).
 
I suppose it would be too complicated, and some Ubers need to stay banned
That said, some pages back someone decreased the base stats of ubers by 15 points and they all looked a lot less daunting. Understandably there are a few that if we sat around and thought of who would cause problems for TS, would probably cause problems (Kyogre for example would still have better Sp. Att, Def and SpDef than Politoed and would probably boost rain even more. Meanwhile Darkrai for example would get a spread of 55/75/75/120/75/110 which in my mind is significantly less daunting and given the boosts given to the NU normal type behemoths actually fits in decently well with them (possibly with less bulk though). Also I use 15 as my marker because Deo-A has 20 Def and SpDef meaning that if you subtract by 20 we have a 0 Def and SpDef mon and I simply don't know how that can be handled outside of setting all zero stats from subtraction to 1 (ala Shedinja which regularly has 1 point in health and faints to the slightest wind) but I'm unsure if that would be too complicated to script.
 
For the sake of fostering discussion, I'd like to talk to all of you about our lord and savior: The Sun. When it is rainy, our favorite magic fox, Ninetales, who's new spread of 88/91/90/96/115/115 can now hit a bit harder while the additional speed gives it more use in its support role shooting off a hypnosis to try and get a threat in safely. While Victreebel played second fiddle to Venusaur last gen is now with a spread of 95/120/80/115/85/85 allows for a mixed set, physical set or special set but of course the special set is the true power set holding Solarbeam and Weather Ball (which is a fire type move in the sun) allows for a lot of pain. Another good sweeper is Sawsbuck which now has 115 attack and 110 speed backed by Chlorophyll and swords dance gives some real power to Jump Kick, STAB Return and STAB Horn Leech. I also provide no introduction to Banded V-Creates from a now 105 base everything Victini further boosted in the sun. Surely the Sun is a powerful playstyle that is underrated yet worthy of respect.
 
In my opinion, Sawsbuck is better than Kabutops. I also love mixed Exeggutor, as it is very fast and powerful. I used sun a lot in the past, but have not recently. Its three main problems in OU (Talonflame, Tyranitar, and Heatran) have hugely reduced presence. It exchanges this for rain being prominent, but it still survived in BW facing rain. Cresselia is also great with sun, making it even more of a pain to take down. Mega Houndoom is basically 2HKOs anything in sun, and can carry moves like Taunt, Destiny Bond, and Will-O-Wisp for the few things it doesn't. Also just going to say I have been using a HO team with Dual Screens Cress, Mega Absol, and Shell Smash Barbaracle recently with success.
 
I know Shell Smash Barbaracle was popular early on but waned for a while. Is it coming back in style because that thing is terrifying if unprepared for. And after using Sawsbuck I can help verify how scary it is, especially because unlike Kabutops its gets physical STAB which lets it recover health. The hardest part I've had with sun is arranging the individual peices and trying to figure out which ones to use on a given team while balancing our weaknesses (most sun abusers are solely grass or fire and with grass having its fire weakness reemphasized its definitely harder for me to come up with team mates to help cover all of the weaknesses).
 
I really don't see the appeal of a defensive Ninetales, it's bulk is ok but it's still got SR weakness and in TS many things hit much harder so even her newfound bulk it's unnoticeable some times. Instead I've been using (and loving) her Choice Specs set. Fire Blast / Energy Ball / Psyshock / Overheat is all you really need. It kind of sucks that you have no coverage but Fire Blast and Energy Ball are what you're gonna be using anyway. Hp Ice can be used too although I tried it and then never used it. Overheat gives you a good bye attack and Energy Ball 2HKOes Politoad and OHKOed Kabutops for an easy revenge kill. Fire Blast just nukes stuff. I really can't tell you how many things like to set up rocks or themselves on Nintales just to be met with a Specs Fire Blast in the sun. Ninetales might not be the strongest sun abuser but she's decently fast and hits a bit hard (this also makes you a great check to rain teams themselves because only Kingdra likes switching in repetitively. It's a real shame Ninetales doesn't learn trick because that would be an awesome utility against stuff like Chansey that gives sun so much trouble.
 
I do also see the appeal of a Specs set as it does have quite a bit of power. I run defensive partly out of habit and partly because it does allow a few swtich ins as well as just me liking its support qualities. That said a specs set does hurt pretty hard and not too many Pokemon want to switch in. In that vein of thought, how does MHoundoom run in the tier? I've been using him in OU the past few days (believe it or not we rose through elo hell to a respectable 1500 with MHoundoom+Ninetales core) so I'm curious how he does here.
 
Personally, I think that PU should be an official tier. NU should be split, and PU gives Smogon users another great metagame to play with. However, I do agree that there should be a more official setup before we can use it for Tier Shift. As it is, some mons are going to be immensely buffed by the addition of PU, not because they're bad in NU, but because they don't get used very much. Usage statistics do not make a tier.
 

EV

Banned deucer.
Not just usage statistics. There needs to be some form of suspect testing, some form of borderline tier between PU and NU.
Only if the tier below were to ban something not based on usage. Anyway I don't know why we're talking about it in the Tier Shift thread. We've already established we're not doing PU boosts until it's official, and that won't happen for a while (if at all.)
 
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/tiershift-170558660

Justice for the Rock Blast miss and HP Ice crit. BTW, if you're using shit like Jumpluff and Whimsicott and I have a mon with regenerator, I will PP stall you. Hate that stuff so much.

Also, Mega Ampharos is really good. Checks so many unorthodox wallbreakers like Magnet/zones, Sceptiles etc. that would otherwise give my teams a lot of trouble. I'm using Resttalk w/ max HP + 2 attacks.
 
I have recently been using Soundproof Mega Abomasnow, and it works great. Soundproof allows it to wall Chatot as well as take Bug Buzz and Specs Boombursts from Exploud. When you are done with Soundproof, you can mega evolve and use great coverage and priority to rip apart teams. Alomomola is a great teammate who can take Fire moves and pass Wishes while Mega Abomasnow can beat the Electric and Grass pokemon that trouble Mola. Scrafty is also a usual pokemon who can sweep with a few Dragon Dances ( after Fairy-types are gone ) or can be a great AV user on stall and balanced teams with a Wish passer. Knock Off can remove items and Dragon Tail prevents opponents from setting up on it, while Drain Punch gives it back its HP. Its abilities are all useful, with Intimidate using its 120 physical defense to set up or wall threats, Moxie making it hard to stop once it gets a kill or two, and Shed Skin shaking off status and be helpful with Rest.
 
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here's a terrifying thing to think about: if we allow PU, then how could we deny FU? and then that would mean +25 to each stat for LINOONE.
 
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