SPOILERS! Mysteries and Conspiracies of Pokemon

Hulavuta

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Coming up with new gym leaders would take a whole lot of effort...not to mention the entire tournament is fanservice to see and face your favorite gym leaders again. Changing things up would kind of defeat the point, and it would also come a bit out of nowhere with no games to establish these new characters or the gym leader restructuring.

If ORAS comes up with with something to contradict the PWT then yeah, that's fine and I'll accept it. I don't think that will happen honestly though; the PWT is pretty self-contained, it only really requires that the gym leaders are there. So short of a gym leader being killed off at the end of ORAS or something, I honestly don't think there will be any issues.
 

Pikachu315111

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If ORAS comes up with with something to contradict the PWT then yeah, that's fine and I'll accept it. I don't think that will happen honestly though; the PWT is pretty self-contained, it only really requires that the gym leaders are there. So short of a gym leader being killed off at the end of ORAS or something, I honestly don't think there will be any issues.
I was more thinking about retconning Wallace being a Champion (which admittedly he could easily do between the time of these Hoenn games and BW2).

I think we're going in circles here. I'm marking it up to author interpretation (though if the author does include them I hope they'll remember to age them).
 
Healthy debate is fine, but just a reminder to all posters to be careful when talking about contradictions in the game. They tend to invite circular arguments and opinion, which is fine but just don't get trapped.

Regarding any sense of a timeline for the pokemon games, I think that's a toxic topic too (remember any given Zelda board BEFORE the Hyrule Historia was published? Wowzers). Disregarding games that explicitly state they are sequential (Red/Blue to Gold/Silver, BW to B2W2), there's too many references, alternate timelines (Diamond/Pearl vs Platinum, Crystal vs HG/SS, etc.), or questionable boundaries (is the Ore region in the same place as Kanto? Or even the same time? Universe? Dr. Who?) to put one together that everyone can agree with.

Again, no mystery is off limits (until a mod tells me otherwise) but just tread carefully.

Remember this is a speculation topic, meant to fill in the plot-holes and mysteries with your own theories. So while some opinions might have more evidence or weight than others, all are equally welcome and valid. And if it does get way too heated, just remember the MST3K mantra.

Anyway, just wanted to reiterate that. Well... good luck and have fun!
 
I don't recall this mystery coming up, so here it is; what causes pokemon to evolve when traded? Remember I'm asking this at the ideological level, cause the real world answer is to encourage trading, but there must be some kind of in game explanation.
 

Hulavuta

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Saw a theory video that suggests that they evolve due to emotional reasons, that they are upset about leaving their trainer and this triggers an evolution. This isn't too farfetched, a few Pokemon evolve through high friendship, so it is already established that emotions can have an effect on evolution.
 
I don't recall this mystery coming up, so here it is; what causes pokemon to evolve when traded? Remember I'm asking this at the ideological level, cause the real world answer is to encourage trading, but there must be some kind of in game explanation.
I like the emotions theory that Hulavuta has put forward. An alternate explanation might be that when Pokemon are traded, they interact with the mechanism/system in a way that makes them evolve, like using evolution stones on other Pokemon.
 

Pikachu315111

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I don't recall this mystery coming up, so here it is; what causes pokemon to evolve when traded? Remember I'm asking this at the ideological level, cause the real world answer is to encourage trading, but there must be some kind of in game explanation.
Well I think we must take multiple methods of trading evolution into consideration, though generally I agree with the theory that rufusdrumknott put forward, though for some Hulavuta's theory could work just as well:

Normal Trade Evolution: Evolutions where the act of trading itself evolve them. This is where Hulavuta's theory can work since there's no other trigger that could have caused the evolution. Why does it evolve going from one trainer to another? It can't be from being turned to energy otherwise a Haunter or Machoke would have evolved as soon as being caught and transported through the PC. Of course Trading is a special form of PC transportation which we'll discuss about next.

Trade w/ Item Evolution: Evolutions where the Pokemon needs to be holding an item while trading in order to be evolve. This is where we start more relying on rufusdrumknott's theory more as now there's an additional element to the trade: the held item. When being transported the Pokemon isn't the only one being turned to energy but also the item, and during this evolution it seems like certain item bonds with certain Pokemon while their both in energy form and when it reforms the additional item now in its DNA causes it to evolve (hence why the item also disappears). Now like previously the question of why a Pokemon that evolves this way and is holding their item don't evolve when being caught/transporting through the PC. It's still in energy form and holding the item, why does no evolution occur? Could it too be emotion? Possibly, but Trading isn't the same as shuffling a Pokemon through the PC, now is it? We don't think of it, but there is ANOTHER item which is turned to energy in addition to the Pokemon and Held Item: the Pokeball. While trading the Pokeball's ownership is switched to the new trainer's so that the Pokemon understands they are the ones who now commands them. The PC just transport the Pokemon, it does no changes to the energy. However Trading would change the energy in some way and it could be during this change that certain items react to certain Pokemon that they combine in energy form and when they come out the other side they start to evolve with the item now in their DNA.

Trade w/ Certain Pokemon Evolution: Evolutions where one Pokemon needs another Pokemon to evolve. Only two Pokemon exhibit this kind of evolution and its with one another: Shelmet and Karrablast. Here the issue might not be emotional nor transmutational but rather behavioral. When being traded, during the process the two Pokemon probably come close to one another so that the Pokeballs can swap trainer ownership. However it seems like when this happens its within the Karrablast's nature to siphon off the energy data of the Shelmet's shell, resulting with a Karrablast with Shelmet shell DNA and a Shelmet with little to no shell DNA. This additional bit of data is enough for the Pokemon to evolve in order to adapt to this change in their DNA.

"So, how do you explain being able to cancel the evolution"? Very good question, being evolution happens right after the Pokemon is converted back from being energy its possibly still connected to the trade machine in someway. You cancelling the trade probably signals an error has occurred during the trade and the trade machine is able to reset the Pokemon (but not the Pokeball's ownership which was the only thing that was suppose to change), probably having scanned a copy of the Pokemon's energy signal before the trade began or activating dormant DNA which has the "blueprints" of how this species of Pokemon is suppose to be.

So eitherway, we're kind of messing with a Pokemon's DNA by turning them into energy and transporting them through a machine which is changing said energy in some way.
 
If Karrablast/Shellmet's dex entries are anything to go off of, it's some sort of electrical stimulation. Some may just need that alone, such as Machoke or Phantump. Others need a special item. Porygon uploads Silph. Co.'s Upgrade as a result of the stimulation and becomes Porygon2, then uploads the Dubious Disc and it evolves into Porygon-Z for example. Karrablast and Shellmet respond to the stimulation when close together. Obviously the electrical stimulation from trading is different from the electromagnetic energy within Mt. Coronet, Chargestone Cave, and near the Kalos Power Plant (as well as possibly New Mauville in OR/AS) which entice Magneton and Nosepass to evolve into Magnezone and Probopass respectively. It could easily fit with rufusdrumknott's theory, with the Pokemon receiving the necessary stimulation from the system along the mid-way point just as the two pass each other to their new (or former if being traded back) trainers.

I suppose though that this trading method just makes things MUCH easier for the Pokemon to evolve like this, since there are some of these certain Pokemon found in the wild already evolved, albeit very rare. Gengar in the Old Chateau, Kingdra and Politoed that could be fished for in Unova, and the wild Trevenant in the winding woods of Route 20.

As for Feebas, I think the Prism Scale contains enough 'artificial beauty' (we don't know if it automatically maxes its contest beauty stat yet. Probably doesn't) to make it evolve into Milotic, as opposed to raising its beauty manually and then top it off with a Rare Candy, but needs that electrical stimulation to do so.
 

Focus

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I think one of the main games indicates that you scare the Pokémon to stop evolution from happening. I haven't tried it, but it would be very surprising if you couldn't stop evolution in the games without the Pokédex.
 
As for Feebas, I think the Prism Scale contains enough 'artificial beauty' (we don't know if it automatically maxes its contest beauty stat yet. Probably doesn't) to make it evolve into Milotic, as opposed to raising its beauty manually and then top it off with a Rare Candy, but needs that electrical stimulation to do so.
Well, the Prism Scale might be from an actual Milotic and when a Feebas holding on is traded, it fuses with it, becomes far more beautiful than it was before which causes the evolution.
Also, to be honest, how do you define beauty for the evolution? Where as levels clearly have some way to measure it (likely just a proportional level of growth that we see in people. So how a person becomes an adult at age 18, a Charmeleon becomes Charizard at level 31), but beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
I've only seen a Feebas evolve outside of the games twice:
1) One episode of the anime had a Feebas evolve during a contest...but this was all a a dream so it doesn't count.
2) In Pokémon Adventures, Ruby declares his Feebas to be beautiful, which causes the evolution.
Anyone have a good theory on that?
 
Well, the Prism Scale might be from an actual Milotic and when a Feebas holding on is traded, it fuses with it, becomes far more beautiful than it was before which causes the evolution.
Also, to be honest, how do you define beauty for the evolution? Where as levels clearly have some way to measure it (likely just a proportional level of growth that we see in people. So how a person becomes an adult at age 18, a Charmeleon becomes Charizard at level 31), but beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
I've only seen a Feebas evolve outside of the games twice:
1) One episode of the anime had a Feebas evolve during a contest...but this was all a a dream so it doesn't count.
2) In Pokémon Adventures, Ruby declares his Feebas to be beautiful, which causes the evolution.
Anyone have a good theory on that?
Perhaps its a special way of evolving through happiness. Feebas may only be truly happy if it's considered beautiful, and that causes evolution.
 

Pikachu315111

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In the manga, cancelling evolution is done by a signal sent from the Pokedex. I kinda like that explanation because evolution cancelling is clearly artificial.
I think one of the main games indicates that you scare the Pokémon to stop evolution from happening. I haven't tried it, but it would be very surprising if you couldn't stop evolution in the games without the Pokédex.
I'm going to agree with Focus here, I think the implication here is that when a Pokemon is evolving you startle them to have them stop evolving. It is still artificial, you're stopping something that is natural for the Pokemon.

Well, the Prism Scale might be from an actual Milotic and when a Feebas holding on is traded, it fuses with it, becomes far more beautiful than it was before which causes the evolution.
Also, to be honest, how do you define beauty for the evolution? Where as levels clearly have some way to measure it (likely just a proportional level of growth that we see in people. So how a person becomes an adult at age 18, a Charmeleon becomes Charizard at level 31), but beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
I've only seen a Feebas evolve outside of the games twice:
1) One episode of the anime had a Feebas evolve during a contest...but this was all a a dream so it doesn't count.
2) In Pokémon Adventures, Ruby declares his Feebas to be beautiful, which causes the evolution.
Anyone have a good theory on that?
Yeah, I always took the Prism Scale was just a scale from a Milotic and, combining it with my "Trade w/ Item" theory above, it fused with Feebas thus having it have "max" beauty (which I think Beauty Condition stat wise is not the case, you're just tricking its body to trigger it to evolve) thus is able to evolve.

As for "what is beauty" in the games... that's pretty much going into meta. In the games, Beauty is a stat which has a value. There is a max to that value, and that's what you need to reach in order to have Feebas evolve.

But in the anime and manga, they pretty much are allowed to do what they want. In the anime we have Pokemon evolving a lot of times without the requirement they need to evolve (mainly with the Pokemon that evolve via trade). Sadly some concepts only work in game form, this being one of them. Hulavuta's emotion theory is many time a big factor in the anime in order for a Pokemon to evolve (or not evolve in some cases).
 
As for "what is beauty" in the games... that's pretty much going into meta. In the games, Beauty is a stat which has a value. There is a max to that value, and that's what you need to reach in order to have Feebas evolve.
I'm talking about what does that stat actually measure? With normal stats like HP and Speed, you can have some vague idea of what is being measured if Pokémon were real. Beauty, on the other hand, is far more abstract.
 
I'm talking about what does that stat actually measure? With normal stats like HP and Speed, you can have some vague idea of what is being measured if Pokémon were real. Beauty, on the other hand, is far more abstract.
What are any of the contest stats for that matter? And how does feeding a Pokemon blended berries, with or without a base Poffin batter mix, make them suddenly better in those stats? I feed my Pokemon a Pecha Berry it doesn't get any cuter, but it does if I shove that same berry into a blender?
 
It's the same thing with stat boosting drinks as with berries. With the exception of protein, how does the given vitamen directly correlate to the stat it boosts? It makes no sense.
 
Maybe the berries make Pokemon look healthier (which is how appearance is measured most of the time irl, when you think about it) in different ways which contributes to their beauty? For example, sweet berries may make a Pokemon cuter because it makes their eyes shine brighter, and bitter berries make Pokemon look smarter because it makes their coat glossier.

It's the same thing with stat boosting drinks as with berries. With the exception of protein, how does the given vitamen directly correlate to the stat it boosts? It makes no sense.
I'm not sure what the problem with this is. Different foods and things do increase your health in different ways, it's not a stretch to imagine that applies for Pokemon too. Unless I'm misunderstanding your question, which I might be.
 
An example of what I was talking about is calcium. Calcium strengthens bones and such, so in what way would it boost sp.atk? And the same with zinc and special defense. The rest are arguable, but I really don't see how those items would have an effect on those stats unless they have different effects in the pokemon world, which I guess we must assume they do...
 
An example of what I was talking about is calcium. Calcium strengthens bones and such, so in what way would it boost sp.atk? And the same with zinc and special defense. The rest are arguable, but I really don't see how those items would have an effect on those stats unless they have different effects in the pokemon world, which I guess we must assume they do...
Well, in Japan, Calcium is known as lysozyme. Which doesn't make sense since that is part of the immune system. Actually, the Japanese names don't make a lick of sense. Protein does make perfect sense and Iron does in a way (Steel-types do have great Defense).
 
An example of what I was talking about is calcium. Calcium strengthens bones and such, so in what way would it boost sp.atk? And the same with zinc and special defense. The rest are arguable, but I really don't see how those items would have an effect on those stats unless they have different effects in the pokemon world, which I guess we must assume they do...
Oh I see. Actually, it might be quite interesting to relate the real-world properties of vitamins to their in-game effects. Maybe - and this may be stretching it a bit but I do like this idea - a Pokemon's Special Attack stat is determined by the inherent strength of their bones or something similar which is why Calcium boosts Special Attack and so on. A more scientifically-inclined user may expand or debunk this, I'm just an art student throwing a guess here.
 

Pikachu315111

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I'm talking about what does that stat actually measure? With normal stats like HP and Speed, you can have some vague idea of what is being measured if Pokémon were real. Beauty, on the other hand, is far more abstract.
Actually I'd say out of all the Contest stats the most abstract one is "Cool". With Beauty, Cute, Smart, and Tough there are some stereotypes you can "rely" on to maybe help form a definition, but what stereotype does "Cool" have? As far as I know, "cool" is mainly just another word for "awesome" or "amazing", and if that's the case then wouldn't all the moves count as that as long as they're performed properly? Here's a list of quick stereotypes I can think of:

Beauty: I think the best way to describe what stereotypical beauty is desired perfection and flawlessness. There is nothing out of place, no blemishes, nothing's "uneven"; everything is as not only as it should be but treated with so much care that it could be considered the pinnacle of what that should be.
Cute: While Beauty is trying to match up to something, Cute is trying to draw something out from you: sympathy. when you see something cute it makes you want to hug it, makes you want to feel sorry for it, makes you want to protect it. It makes you not want to see something bad happen to it to where you'll probably go out of your way to make sure it doesn't.
Smart: When you're smart you have something to prove. You prove that you can solve puzzles, answers questions, and do things in a way no one else would have thought of. You can think outside the box, create new ways of doing things instead of following how it has been previously done. You're thinking 10 steps ahead while everyone else is thinking in the now or only a few steps ahead.
Tough: When you're tough you don't have anything to prove. Why? Because you're strong and if anyone questions it you quickly "enlighten" them why, that's why! You're strong enough to lift the heaviest of things, sturdy enough to withstand the hardest of blows, and have the attitude of someone no one wants to mess with.

So with all that said, what would the stereotype of "Cool" be? Leaning against a side of a wall wearing an opened jacket and a pair sunglasses?

And how does feeding a Pokemon blended berries, with or without a base Poffin batter mix, make them suddenly better in those stats? I feed my Pokemon a Pecha Berry it doesn't get any cuter, but it does if I shove that same berry into a blender?
Well for Beauty, Smart, and Tough I can see eating certain supplements helping with that. Beauty Pokeblocks/Poffin makes a Pokemon's skin/scales/shell/hair/fur/feathers look healthier, smoother, and glimmer. Smart Pokeblocks/Poffin gives your Pokemon essential vitamins and nutrients their brain needs to grow and think faster. And Tough Pokeblocks/Poffin can help strengthen your Pokemon's bones and muscles.

But I have no clue how they're suppose to help with looking cute or being cool.

It's the same thing with stat boosting drinks as with berries. With the exception of protein, how does the given vitamen directly correlate to the stat it boosts? It makes no sense.
Hmm, Bulbapedia used to have an explanation but now it's gone. Let's see what I can come up with:

Protein: A few of Protein's functions in the body is having it react and respond to stimuli, which can be related to Attack as that relies on physical movement and you'll need your body to be responsive in order for it to perform the attack correctly.
Iron: This is just for pun sake. As Vader_the_White said, Steel-types are considered THE most defensive typing so what Vitamin can be used to represent that? Iron, because we do have a bit of iron in our body.
Calcium: While Calcium is used to make bones and teeth stronger (since they're made of the stuff), it also serves the function of activating exocytosis which controls the cells use of energy. This process allows things such as neurotransmitters to release (aka let's you think), muscles to contract (aka let's you move), and is part of the heart's electrical conduction system that allows it to beat (aka let's you live). Calcium seems to have a lot to do with energy and the way it used, and what is Special Attack but a Pokemon directing a certain kind of energy?
Zinc: For Zinc it might be better to describe what happens if your body is lacking it: A lack of Zinc has been connected to many diseases, retardation, delayed sexual maturation, infection susceptibility, and diarrhea which all lead to eventual death. Zinc seems to have to do with activating the bodies various health maintenance function (and it's also the second most common metal in organisms, Iron is the first), which I would say fit with it being for Special Defense.
Carbos: Carbos is short for "Carbohydrate", carbohydrate is the body's essential source of energy. Without carbohydrates you're not going anywhere, which I think is appropriate for Speed.

BTW, I'm VERY generalizing what each of these chemicals do, they each do a ton of other stuff in the body which pretty much all translate to "you need it to live". I'm just picking out the functions they do that could be stretched to relate to the stats they're associated with.

I'll also go with a cop out answer of pointing out that a Pokemon's body is different from a human's body, so Pokemon can have these vitamins do whatever they want.
 

DHR-107

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In the manga, cancelling evolution is done by a signal sent from the Pokedex. I kinda like that explanation because evolution cancelling is clearly artificial.
I think one of the main games indicates that you scare the Pokémon to stop evolution from happening. I haven't tried it, but it would be very surprising if you couldn't stop evolution in the games without the Pokédex.
I remember this quote too. In XY at least not evolving gives you an XP boost. Evolution in and of itself is one of the main story points of Gen 4 and I guess earlier some of Gen 2 with the eggs. I think the whole idea is its supposed to stay mysterious and things. We've seen some incredibly strong Pokemon in the anime (Squirtle, Totodile, Corphish, Buizel, Snivy etc) not evolving for some reason, and yet Dawn's Piplup was given an everstone to stop it from happening. Why didn't Ash's reach that level? We all know how powerful these mons are (strange that they are mostly water but hey) as they've defeated Pokemon that are far more powerful.
 

Pikachu315111

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I remember this quote too. In XY at least not evolving gives you an XP boost. Evolution in and of itself is one of the main story points of Gen 4 and I guess earlier some of Gen 2 with the eggs. I think the whole idea is its supposed to stay mysterious and things. We've seen some incredibly strong Pokemon in the anime (Squirtle, Totodile, Corphish, Buizel, Snivy etc) not evolving for some reason, and yet Dawn's Piplup was given an everstone to stop it from happening. Why didn't Ash's reach that level? We all know how powerful these mons are (strange that they are mostly water but hey) as they've defeated Pokemon that are far more powerful.
That's a good point, why did Piplup have such a big problem trying not to evolve while Ash's Pokemon didn't even try to evolve at all? Hmm, I guess it could stem from maybe Piplup childlike behavior not giving the discipline to just ignore the effects of evolution, but then again I don't think some of Ash's Pokemon like Totodile, Corphish, Buizel, and Snivy would have a qualm about evolving given the chance to. Then again I always did find it a bit Tauros Mulch when Ash got to a League yet he didn't have a party of at least half of them being fully evolve Pokemon. Going a bit meta, wouldn't having Ash's Pokemon evolve be the best way to show and present Ash's Pokemon evolutions instead of having a random one or one from another trainer appear? Unova was pretty guilty of doing that, to the point that I think since the writers showed off their evolutions they felt no need to evolve Ash's Pokemon... which resulted them pretty much getting tossed around by Cameron's Hydriegon, Samurott, and Lucario (if Cameron had half a brain he would have been able to sweep Ash sooner. Also Lucario pretty much went Gary Sue mode).

BUT back to the point: Yeah, Piplup needing an Everstone to stop evolving while some of Ash's Pokemon never attempted to makes no sense. I really think the show needs to let go a lot of its writers and hire new ones. I think the old writers are tired of writing and want to move on themselves while new writers would probably jump at the chance of coming up with ideas for a show that has run as long as Pokemon.
 
Ah, evolution. For starters the name always irked me, since pokemon don't really "evolve," they go through metamorphosis. But I'm a science nut and it's to late to grab my pitchfork for that angry mob...

The anime has SOOOOOO many weird evolutions that we might as well state that if it doesn't involve an item then anime evolution =/= game evolution. The only consistent rule seems to be tied to emotional states, which is easy writing for "whenever the heck we want them to evolve." For early examples, Team Rocket's Ekans and Koffing evolved just because their trainers whined about it for a whole episode and then crying on them somehow triggered it.

For more positive examples, one episode had a paras with confidence issues. When it was tricked into gaining a sense of confidence, and then put this into trial against Charmeleon, it evolved into Parasect. Charmeleon himself evolved to Charizard for a grudge match with Aerodactyl, so I guess his desire to fight triggered it? It could be a sign of emotional maturity or growth that translates into physical growth.

As why some do and some don't, I guess either they don't want to or aren't ready for it. Meowth is mostly a non-combatant, but I think he expressed displeasure with the thought of evolving. As for the Piplup problem, maybe the evolution problem came from a mental clash, like your tween years when you start getting adult responsibilities but still want to go and play with dolls and trucks. If it's tied to your physical form, then maybe the everstone just stopped the physical response to allow Piplup to decide when it's truly ready. Or to forever be an adult-child. As for why an everstone, I don't think evolution cancelling exists in the anime.

Heck, I'd go so far as to say the anime just doesn't have levels period. I know they were mentioned in the VERY early ones, but have they ever been brought up since? I think a pokemon's performance in the anime is like a human's: based on skill, fitness, and a bit of talent. So the reason Ash's Pikachu goes from Dragonite slayer to beat by an Eevee (actually Eevee is great and beats all and is my favorite smack that fat yellow rat eevee) is that Ash takes a 6 month break and Pikachu spends it eating Poffins and Pokepuffs between seasons. Can't forget your technique (moves), but loses the fitness (level).

Closest answer I've got outside of "FOR THE PLOT!"
 
In fairness, the concept of "levels" makes no sense outside of a video game. The don't really make much sense inside video games, either (to quote Fallout: "I have killed an arbitrary number of enemies and suddenly I feel stronger!") but they are a necessary evil as they are the simplest way of informing the player of how strong his character is and by extension whether he is able to take on the next boss fight. I seem to remember one anime episode in which they mentioned experience, specifically Team Rocket wanted to train their Meowth, and somehow it ended up gaining tons of experience despite losing a succession of fights against stronger Pokemon. You've got to remember that Ash's Pikachu is still being given a good run for its money by the Route 1 trainers of Kalos despite having had five generations of so-called experience under its belt by now.

In general, though, most evolutions, if, as mentioned above, you think of evolution as growth/metamorphosis, kind of make vague sense. Evolving through level-up/fighting is pretty standard as a natural extension of the experience mechanics in every RPG: evolution is merely a really big level-up. Happiness can be considered in terms of some kind of symbiotic relationship between Pokemon and trainer, that strengthens the Pokemon, which repays its trainer by evolving. Various evolution items are suggested to be radioactive and trigger evolution through altering the Pokemon's genetics (so a serendipitously benign form of radiation rather than the one that gives you cancer... okay I'll bite). Trade... er yeah. That's just there to make players trade as far as I can see.

Also, whenever people discuss the Pokemon anime on here, I'm reminded of Francis, the nerdy lizard from Super Paper Mario. Not entirely sure why...
 

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