ORAS General Discussion - Mark 2 - Spoilers Inside

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If it's airing then, then I've almost no doubt Mega Latis will be demo. But we'll see... we'll see.
I don't know, how does Lati@s tie in with Mossdeep, Space Center and battling Tabitha and Matt?

Tough it would make sense if Lati@s or their mega stone were the surprise you get by playing everyday.

Is it too much wishful thinking of me to hope Lati@s will have different looks (and while we're at it: different stats too) than the ones found in XY?
 
There is too much official emphasis in how Primal Devolution and Mega-Rayquaza behave differently to a 'normal' Mega Evolution. Why am I starting to think "Megas that don't fill a Mega slot" (As in, two Mega Evolutions in the same team) is a possibility?
 
Check the trailer again, guys. Mega Rayquaza still needs a mega stone... At the bottom of the screen of the trailer when it's showing Mega Rayquaza, it says "Mega Stone obtained in Pokémon Omega Ruby and Pokémon Alpha Sapphire"

Meaning, no other items can be held. How exactly it Mega Evolves is beyond me though because they say it evolves differently.
 
Check the trailer again, guys. Mega Rayquaza still needs a mega stone... At the bottom of the screen of the trailer when it's showing Mega Rayquaza, it says "Mega Stone obtained in Pokémon Omega Ruby and Pokémon Alpha Sapphire"

Meaning, no other items can be held. How exactly it Mega Evolves is beyond me though because they say it evolves differently.
Inb4 they can only mega evolve if they are tha last members of thr party or some sortof gimmick.
 

Jibaku

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In the niconico battle, Rayquaza was the only Pokemon in the team, so I dont think pairing will trigger it.

Interestingly, the text says something along the lines of "The player's strong prayer has been answered by Rayquaza", right before the mega evolution starts.

(Someone double check this please. My Japanese is very limited)
 
In the niconico battle, Rayquaza was the only Pokemon in the team, so I dont think pairing will trigger it.

Interestingly, the text says something along the lines of "The player's strong prayer has been answered by Rayquaza", right before the mega evolution starts.

(Someone double check this please. My Japanese is very limited)
Reacting to prayers? I guess Mega Rayquaza is Paula's favorite Pokemon

(And Giygas's nemesis, but whatever)
 

Pikachu315111

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A 7 hour stream yet only 30 minutes really contained new info. I would ask what was the point, just show thew new info; but my argument becomes invalid with the reveal of what we've all been expecting and waiting for: Mega Rayquaza! Does it meet expectations? Does it disappoint? Well that's all personal, I can only explain what I think:

POKEMON: Mega Rayquaza
TYPE: Dragon/Flying (Same as normal Rayquaza)
NORMAL RAYQUAZA'S STATS: 105/150/90/150/90/95//680
INCREASED STATS: Major to Attack & Special Attack; Minor to others
ABILITY: Delta Stream (Summons "Strong Winds" weather condition. "Strong Winds" replaces and prevents other weather conditions (including Extremely Harsh Sunlight and Heavy Rain) AND makes Flying-type weaknesses to neutral damage. Delta Stream and "Strong Winds" is only active as long as Mega Rayquaza is in play)
NEW MOVE: Dragon Ascent (Japanese: Finishing Touch)(Flying-type)


OPINION:
Design: How disappointing... that there's no official art to show how AWESOME MEGA RAYQUAZA IS! (but seriously, they updated the main website with Mega Rayquaza but didn't put up its artwork? I can even see where the artwork is suppose to be placed, where is it?!)
So, guess we'll start with it's appearance: AWESOME! Do I need to say anything else? Well, of course I am, but that's my general opinion. Let's start with the differences between it and normal Rayquaza, with a picture of normal Rayquaza for reference:

Quite the transformation, though still recognizable as Rayquaza. So what's different between the two (starting wit the body):

1.
The segments of armor between its air foil segments vanish revealing what's underneath: a body with a green back, black underbelly, and two yellowish-orange orbs on the side (corresponding to where the side yellow circles were on the armor).
2. The air foils also changed shape, going from a half hexagon with red outline to a shark find shape with yellow outline.
3. The tail loses its air fol segment and instead now has two long yellow streams attached to the sides of it.
4. The two air foils on the arm segment changes from a half hexagon with red outline to two long triangular wings with yellow outline.
5. It's top head foils are now more apart of face and become sharper with the top of it being lined with yellow. Yellow streams with diamonds at either end are attached to each foil.
6. It's lower head foils have changes into a mandible-like piece that now connects to the top jaw.
6a. The upper jaw and inner mandible is outline in yellow, seemingly replacing Rayquaza's red gums.
6b. The most outer of the mandible is jagged where yellow energy spews out but then form into a streamer on either side. The streamer has several of the two circle design that was on Rayquaza's now lost body segments on them (4 on each streamer or a total of 8). The stream ends two two green scale-shaped pieces attached to them.
7. On top of the head, the yellow circle now has a yellow triangle after it (a delta symbol to match with Primal Groudon's omega and Primal Kyogre's alpha additional symbols).
8. On the side of the head, a spiky serpent design goes down its length starting from its eye.

Out of the design I like the changing of the head shape and the missing armor pieces revealing what's underneath them. However there's a lot of designs going on from the spiky serpent eyes, the repeating two circles on the mandible streamers, and the two green scales at the end of the mandible streamers. They don't look bad but it feels like there were multiple designers for Mega Rayquaza and each one had a design theme idea and so they all were added in. Still, I would call this a Mega Rayquaza.
Type: FINALLY moving onto its type... it's still Dragon/Flying. Moving on. ACTUALLY wait, let's talk about something odd with Mega Rayquaza. It not has lots of what looks to be streamers which looks to be made out of electricity, yet it's not part Electric-type. "Well of course it isn't, what type would they replace to make it part Electric-type"? And that's the thing, they really couldn't change its type yet they still added electric-like details to its design? And yes, I know, electricity is related to the sky and heavens and Rayquaza can learn plenty of Electric-type attacks. Still, parts of its design now sort of is trying to say it's Electric-type yet it hasn't changed types at all. Thinking about it that's not really a type thing but rather another minor flaw with its design.
Stats: I think it was a give-in that Mega Rayquaza would majorly focus on its offensive stats if it was given one Mega Evolution. As Imanalt's calculations shown, and going by the website saying ALMOST all of Mega Rayquaza's stats are increased, it's possible that its Speed isn't going to change which is a bit of a shame. Personally I wouldn't have focused that much on its defensive stats and given a major boost to speed. Maybe not as much as its offensive stats, but Rayquaza is suppose to be the incarnation of the sky and heavens, it should be a bit more speedy like the winds it can now summon! But whatever, it still got increases offense which is the important thing and increased defense isn't so bad, especially not that Fairy-types are running about giving it yet another weakness it needs to worry about. Imanalt's prediction is 105/180/110/180/110/95//780 which I agree with, though I kind of wished it was something like 105/185/100/185/100/105//780. Oh well, I'm sure they did it for balancing reasons as it's new Ability sort of makes it something to fear.
Ability: With Primal Groudon and Primal Kyogre getting SUPER Abilities if Rayquaza was going to compete it needed one as well and they delivered! Delta Stream is actually different from Air Lock. Air Lock simply stops a weather condition's effects from happening (it doesn't clear it, just stops their effects as long as Rayquaza was on the field). Delta Stream on the other hand DOES remove weather by replacing it with its own unique weather. It's similar to Desolate Land and Primordial Sea in several ways: It prevents other weather from activating while its active (though Delta Stream also prevents them activating), it effects a certain type (but while DL and PS hinders Water- and Fire-type attacks, respectively, DS specifically helps Flying-types by neutralizing their weaknesses), and their weather effects is only active when they're on he field. So basically Delta Stream is to Desolate Land & Primordial Sea what Air Lock is to Drought and Drizzle, the former being upgrades to the latter.
But what does Delta Stream mean gameplay wise? With it neutralizing Flying-type weaknesses that means Rayquaza's type chart changes significantly:

Weakness x4: None
Weakness x2: Ice, Dragon, & Fairy
Neutral: Normal, Flying, Poison, Ghost, Steel, Psychic, Dark, & Rock
Resist x.5: Fighting, Bug, Fire, Water, & Electric
Resist x.25: Grass
Immune: Ground

In other words, it's now a pure Dragon + Flying-type resistances and immunity. If you weren't scared of Rayquaza's power before, YOU SHOULD BE NOW! And hiding behind a Fairy-type won't save you as Rayquaza's new Signature Move is Flying-type!

New Move: Dragon Ascent is a bit of a deceiving name. Now I can see why they didn't want to use "Finishing Touch", but why didn't they go with a name similar to that meaning? Dragon Ascent makes it sound like it's a Dragon-type move which it isn't, unless they're going to be revealed it's a dual-type Dragon/Flying move. Personally I would have called it "Final Blow" because it's similar to its Japanese name and it's a pun.
Onto the move's stats. It's not only a Flying-type but is said to boast the highest power of ALL Flying-types! So unless they forgot about Sky Attack, it'll have a Power higher than 140. Also a video revealed that its Defense and Special Defense drops when using it. However I wonder by how MUCH does its defensive stat drops? I ask because how much it drops could determine how powerful it is. Basically I have three ideas in mind for the move:

Overheat-Like: 150 Power, 85% Accuracy, Defensive stats drop 1 stage each.
Superpower-Like: 150 Power, 100% Accuracy, Defensive stats drop 2 stages each.
V-Create-Like: 180 Power, 85% Accuracy, Defensive stats drop 2 stages each.

Unless the defensive stats drop by more than 1 stage I can't see it being neither that more powerful than Sky Attack nor having perfect Accuracy (at least without it being considered broken). Also, judging by the animation, I think it might be a Physical move.



Mega Vs. Primal: So we were wrong in that it's a normal Mega Evolution instead of a Primal Devolution. The reason is explained here:

It was a primal age, early in the world's history... The natural world was overflowing with energy. That energy granted Groudon and Kyogre an overwhelming power. Seeking ever more of that energy for themselves, the two clashed again and again, and their battles cast the people and Pokémon of Hoenn into great danger. Brimming with the overwhelming power granted by the energy of nature, this transformation was named by later people "Primal Reversion." And the people called their tormentors Primal Groudon and Primal Kyogre.

One Pokémon looked down upon this battle from the sky above. The Pokémon that dances in the heavens: Rayquaza. Rayquaza is venerated by the people of Hoenn as their protector and savior. When Primal Groudon and Primal Kyogre had battled for 20 dawns and 20 nights, the world began to lose its natural balance and tilt toward destruction. The people, unable to endure any more, cried out to their mighty savior Rayquaza before a great stone that shone with rainbow brilliance. And a change came upon Rayquaza, weaving in the sky above Primal Groudon and Primal Kyogre. Suffused in brilliant light, its body began to transform visibly. And then...
So yeah, as it turns out Groudon and Kyogre started hogging all the primal energy so much that they wanted the other's hogged energy and began fighting. This kind of started the end of the world so the people of Hoenn (which I'm surprised to hear existed back then, I thought this battle happened early in the Pokemon World's history where it was still a young planet thus no one was really around) called Rayquaza for help. But with no primal energy to use, instead it used a mysterious rainbow-colored stone to Mega Evolve.
Thematically this makes sense. Groudon and Kyogre became selfishly dependent on a power not of the bonds between people and Pokemon that resulted in the world ending. Rayquaza, being the savior of the people of Hoenn, instead used the power of the bond between people and Pokemon which would give it the strength to fight against Primal Groudon and Primal Kyogre as well as not damage the world any more.
But of course Rayquaza would still need a special way to Mega Evolve. So, the question is now how will we get the Weather Trio to Devolve/Mega Evolve? Honestly, I think all this means is that they won't have a Mega Stone. Oh, they'll have something they need to hold in order to Primal Devolve/Mega Evolve, but its won't by Groudonite, Kyogrite, and Rayquazite. That's its. MAYBE these items will also give bonus effects, but overall I think these special ways to devolve/Mega Evolve will just mean they need to hold something other than a Mega Stone.

Well, that's all I have to say about Mega Rayquaza and a few issues about it! Now it's time to go through many of the posts everyone else had made and possibly like/comment on them. Seeya in a few posts!
 
Dark dialga is a localization error, not the first primal. Its dark dialga wich under pain lost control of its ability.

People always bring this mistake like if it was something big. It isnt, just a legendary in pain suffering from cronical power incontinence.

It has nothing to do with emotions The lore stablishes that both primals fought each other to capitalize on that power and then yoloquaza scolded them hard.
I don't know about that. The little lore thing on the website said Kyogre and Groudon fought for more power simply for the sake of gaining more, despite the toll on the world and people. That seems pretty negative emotion to me, even if I'm playing the definition of emotion very loose.

Mega-evolution has already been defined as an emotional bond between trainer and partner, in Mega-Rayquaza's case the bond between protector and the people calling for him doesn't seem like that big a stretch.

Totally right about the Dialga thing though (well for now Sinnohconfirmed), I was more trying to quiet the weird primal-Rayquaza talk since it was pretty silly.
*Edit: And now the "answered the player's prayer" line pretty much spelled it out.
 
I don't know, how does Lati@s tie in with Mossdeep, Space Center and battling Tabitha and Matt?

Tough it would make sense if Lati@s or their mega stone were the surprise you get by playing everyday.

Is it too much wishful thinking of me to hope Lati@s will have different looks (and while we're at it: different stats too) than the ones found in XY?
To be fair... what Mega would tie into Mossdeep, Space Center and battling Tabitha/Matt?
 
There's something we can already say about Dragon Ascent and it's that its animation looks terrific. Very fitting for a Pokemon that lives in the skies, IMO
 

Jibaku

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Dragon Ascent is 'the most powerful flying type move'? My guess is trollfreak will give us a flying type Hyper Beam/Roar Of Time style move.
It's not. Dragon Ascent is similar to Close Combat and drops Def and SDef after use (by 1 stage each). Its base power has yet to be determined, but it's likely to be 120-140
 
In the niconico battle, Rayquaza was the only Pokemon in the team, so I dont think pairing will trigger it.

Interestingly, the text says something along the lines of "The player's strong prayer has been answered by Rayquaza", right before the mega evolution starts.
Mega-evolution has already been defined as an emotional bond between trainer and partner, in Mega-Rayquaza's case the bond between protector and the people calling for him doesn't seem like that big a stretch.

*Edit: And now the "answered the player's prayer" line pretty much spelled it out.
That totally makes sense and is pretty interesting. I just hope that won't translate into any sort of in-battle restriction. I hope we can use mega Rayquaza just like any ordinary pokémon and having a story behind it is just a pretty nice bonus!

Pikachu315111 Thanks for posting the pictures. They showed me mega Rayquaza looks even better than I thought! You also bring up an interesting point: maybe AD won't have perfect accuracy. This would greatly hinder its effectiveness, thus making Mega Rayquaza a little less broken.

On the other hand, it was able to use it three times in the NicoNico battle without missing once. That points to a pretty solid accuracy. Did they perform the battle on the spot or is there any way of setting it up so AD won't miss regardless of its accuracy?

To be fair... what Mega would tie into Mossdeep, Space Center and battling Tabitha/Matt?
Actually, they don't really need a mega that fits this part of the game, I just think that while pretty much any other pokémon would do, legendaries like the Regis or Lati@s would be out of place there (the Regis have the whole quest to unlock them and Lati@s roam around post-game). It would make more sense for me if something like the Lati@s mega stone were the prize for playing everyday (for how long, btw? Because I don't think they'd force people to play from the day the release became available to release).
 

Mario With Lasers

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The official site says Dragon Ascent is ONE OF the strongest Flying-type moves. Considering Sky Attack exists, its BP is 140 at most. We know it's a one-turn move that reduces both defenses, so it's almost certainly a 120 BP move.
 
On Delta Stream and its removal of the weaknesses of Flying-type Pokemon, are we sure that M-Rayquaza is going to be 2x weak to Ice instead of taking neutral damage from it? In the segment of the Japanese stream where they were showing the M-Rayquaza battle, there seemed to be a conflict between what the guest stars interpret of the ability. The girl had originally said that M-Rayquaza would be neutral to Ice-type attacks, but then everyone revised that statement into "Oh, 2x damage" when they saw Abomasnow's Ice Shard was "super effective".

The thing is, I know that exact damage calculation is impossible without knowing what EVs/IVs/Nature/Stats they gave M-Ray and Abomasnow, but that STAB-ed Ice Shard did suspiciously pitiful damage to a Pokemon with dropped Defense who was supposed to be weak to it. It may be the case that they gave Rayquaza significant Defense boost, or it may be just that the "super effective" message was cosmetic, akin to the message that would appear when M-Venusaur with Thick Fat got hit by an Ice- or Fire-type move.

If Delta Stream actually prevents Ice-type moves from being super effective AT ALL, then M-Rayquaza will only have two weaknesses: Dragon and Fairy. This should be interesting.
 
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On Delta Stream and its removal of the weaknesses of Flying-type Pokemon, are we sure that M-Rayquaza is going to be 2x weak to Ice instead of taking neutral damage from it? In the segment of the Japanese stream where they were showing the M-Rayquaza battle, there seemed to be a conflict between what the guest stars interpret of the ability. The girl had originally said that M-Rayquaza would be neutral to Ice-type attacks, but then everyone revised that statement into "Oh, 2x damage" when they saw Abomasnow's Ice Shard being "super effective".

The thing is, I know that exact damage calculation is impossible without knowing what EVs/IVs/Nature/Stats they gave M-Ray and Abomasnow, but that STAB-ed Ice Shard did suspiciously pitiful damage to a Pokemon with dropped Defense who was supposed to be weak to it. It may be the case that they gave Rayquaza significant Defense boost, or it may be just that the "super effective" message was cosmetic, akin to the message that would appear when M-Venusaur with Thick Fat got hit by an Ice- or Fire-type move.

If Delta Stream actually prevents Ice-type moves from being super effective AT ALL, then M-Rayquaza will only have two weaknesses: Dragon and Fairy. This should be interesting.
The website specifically says it removes the weaknesses the Flying type has. The wording implies that the type itself is affected, not Flying-type Pokemon, so Ice Shard would 'only' deal 2x damage. Still a huge improvement
 
It's not. Dragon Ascent is similar to Close Combat and drops Def and SDef after use (by 1 stage each). Its base power has yet to be determined, but it's likely to be 120-140
Ah ok, sweet! If it gets 140BP that might be a little OP with STAB but I'm glad Rayquaza has a usable flying move. Is there any news on whether it is physical/special?
 
The website specifically says it removes the weaknesses the Flying type has. The wording implies that the type itself is affected, not Flying-type Pokemon, so Ice Shard would 'only' deal 2x damage. Still a huge improvement
Also, when Abomasnow's Ice Shard hit it in the stream, I'm sure the text said super effective?
 
Overheat-Like: 150 Power, 85% Accuracy, Defensive stats drop 1 stage each.
Superpower-Like: 150 Power, 100% Accuracy, Defensive stats drop 2 stages each.
V-Create-Like: 180 Power, 85% Accuracy, Defensive stats drop 2 stages each.
Superpower has 120 Power and drops Attack and Defense by 1 stage.
 
"Moves of a type that Flying-type Pokémon are usually weak to will only deal normal damage to any Flying-type Pokémon in the battle."

The wording sounds ambiguous to me, especially because Flying-type Pokemon have, with the exception of Tornadus and Sky Plate Arceus, a second typing. If I replace "moves of a type that Flying-type Pokemon are usually weak to" with "Ice Beam", and "any Flying-type Pokemon in the battle" with "Mega Rayquaza", well... "Ice Beam will only deal normal damage to Mega-Rayquaza."

Of course, this theory is only based on the girl's original understanding of Delta Stream, and the surprisingly low damage a STAB-ed Ice Shard did to a -1 Def Pokemon who was supposed to be 2x weak to it. Also, if this theory is true, I wonder how it affects Flying Pokemon whose secondary typing resists attacks of a type that will typically be super effective against the Flying-type. Like, say, Will Gyarados in Strong Winds be resistant to Ice, or will it still take normal damage from it? The latter seems to be true if we maintain the same logic.
 
Of course, this theory is only based on the girl's original understanding of Delta Stream, and the surprisingly low damage a STAB-ed Ice Shard did to a -1 Def Pokemon who was supposed to be 2x weak to it.
To be honest, Ice Shard is only seen as so strong because it's specifically used to target 4x weaknesses (As non-Uber, OU-viable Dragons not 4x weak to it are rare). One also has to consider the possibility of wrong EVs and Natures and such...

I'm not going to post calcs (As we are not supposed to here), but if you go and experiment a bit with them, you'll see how surprisingly unimpressive it is when only 2x weak. Rayquaza is frail for Ubers standards, but it's still 105/90 defenses...
 
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