Resource XY NU Viability Ranking

[boltsandbombers]

Heatmor Unlisted to C- / C

Heatmor definitely shouldn't be unlisted. Although it is rather outclassed when compared to Magmortar, it does have some merits that set it apart. To start with, it has Sucker Punch which caters it to deal well with faster HO pokemon that Magmortar commonly has difficulty dealing with, making it a lot harder to straight up check Heatmor. Furthermore, it has Giga Drain, which gives it some form of longevity, and Superpower is amazing as it allows Heatmor to get past stuff like Audino which walls Magmortar. Flash Fire is also definitely a merit for Heatmor, letting it safely come in on the likes of Typhlosion or opposing Magmortar with little opportunity cost. Heatmor surprisingly isn't terrible and definitely has a niche, and I feel has enough pros to carve it a spot in C- / C.

You forgot it gets knock off too :P

 

[Punchshroom]

Imo, I think the biggest factor holding Magmortar back is that it is a wallbreaker with no recovery and is Stealth Rock weak, kind of like Jynx. Most of the wallbreakers in the tier are either neutral/resistant to SR or can at least heal themselves (Samurott, Sawk, Mismagius, Archeops, etc.), and there is the fact that Magmortar is reliant on LO, so it risks being worn down even further. That said, it is one of the best Lilligant answers in the tier, and Lilligant can be damn scary for most offensive teams to face (thankfully, most do not carry HP Rock over HP Fire or Ice) so having a good initial switch-in to it can be a godsend. There is also the fact that few good switch-ins to Magmortar outside of niche mons such as Altaria and Grumpig; while the meta is well equipped to check Magmortar, it isn't quite ready to handle its attacks...which is still kind of like Jynx, which is also in B+ :P. This is still a hard choice for me to decide on.

Heatmor can easily rise though. Access to Flash Fire, Superpower, and Sucker Punch (I don't think Heatmor has much room for Knock Off, sadly) means it isn't outclassed by Magmortar. It can manage against offensive teams with its priority (97 Attack isn't too shabby if given some investment), while Superpower does nicely against pink blobs. Sadly it doesn't respond to traditional Fire checks aka Hariyama and Dragalge nearly as well, but it's still would do okay in C-.

 

[Kushalos]

Sneasel to B+

This thing is so amazing in this metagame. It's capable of taking out all the popular grass and psychic types that run rampant in the tier like Lilligant, Mesprit, Sceptile, and Xatu. Knock Off is an incredibly easy to spam move and Sneasels counters rely a lot on their item like Gurdurr and Hariyama, which in turn allows other pokemon to break through them easier such as Kabutops and Pyroar. It's also amazing as a Pursuit trapper, as it is slightly bulkier than Liepard which gives it an edge over it, as it often comes in handy:

252 SpA Mismagius Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Liepard: 260-308 (96.6 - 114.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Mismagius Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Sneasel: 192-226 (76.4 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Ofcourse Liepard still has a lot of things over Sneasel such as Prankster support moves that offer your team a lot more in some cases and it has U-turn, which makes it seem like a better option, but Sneasels positive traits shouldnt be overlooked.

tldr; great dual stab outspeeds most stuff ice priority and knock off amaze fuck lilligant and mesprit

 

[Ares]

Just gonna comment on some of the recent noms.

Agreeing with Sceptile moving up to A rank. I find myself using this as a check to Gatr on teams more often then not. There are a couple of hard walls like Specially Defensive Dragalge, but with the appropriate HP coverage or Dragon Pulse Sceptile can muscle past them. Also having sub means that Sceptile can easily get down to Overgrow range and a Overgrow boosted Giga Drain hits like a truck.

Not entirely sure about Audino moving down. While I think it's a bit over rated, Audino is the glue that holds a lot of stall teams together. It can also work decently well in balance. However I guess this meta is unfavorable to the pink blobs hence the suggestion of a drop.

Gonna have to disagree on Magmortar rising. It has a hard time muscling past walls in this meta and with hazards up, which are incredibly easy to get up, Magmortar's survivability just seems non existent. It's pretty much required to run Life Orb and so it can pretty much come in twice with hazards before dying, doesn't seem like an A - mon to me.

Gonna agree with Heatmor going from unlisted to C-, pretty cool AV mon with good coverage which let it hit a variety of targets.

Also gonna agree with a slight rise for Sneasel, pretty cool offensive typing with good STABs priority, pursuit, and knock off chief among them.

Also Zebraiken where the updates at?

 

[Punchshroom]

Gonna agree with Heatmor going from unlisted to C-, pretty cool AV mon with good coverage which let it hit a variety of targets.

Who said anything about AV Heatmor tho? If it's not LO then it won't wallbreak stuff that Magmortar can't.

 

[Ares]

Who said anything about AV Heatmor tho? If it's not LO then it won't wallbreak stuff that Magmortar can't.

I got my PU and NU Heatmors mixed up, everyone in PU seems to be running AV Heatmor lol, and its actually pretty decent.

 

[jake]

doink! i know i've been a little slow on the uptake, so i'm considering creating a viability council that has the ability to update our ranks in the OP. this comes with some special privileges and responsibilities and i'm not quite sure how i'm going to efficiently allow others to update it, but if you're interested, please send myself a PM stating why you believe you should be allowed onto the viability council. responsibilities of the viability council (which will include me) will include updating the OP when a posted change has been OK'd, discussing controversial subjects, and not abusing your abilities just bc you feel like a mon belongs somewhere.

barbaracle from b to b-
bouffalant from b- to b
cradily from c- to c+
flareon from b- to b
gorebyss from b+ to a-
grumpig from c to b-
heatmor from unlisted to c-
kadabra from c to b-
kangaskhan from a- to a
linoone from c+ to b-
meowstic-m from c to c+
ninetales from b- to b
primeape from b- to b
rotom-s from b to b+
sandslash from c+ to b-
sceptile from a- to a
simipour from c+ to b
sneasel from b to b+
stoutland from c- to c
torterra from c+ to b
zebstrika from c+ to c

OP updated with these changes tomorrow at noon-ish, i get home from work at 11:30am

 

[Brawlfest]

Couple of points to be brought up today.

D to C+
I'm very adamant about this rise. I've been using Serperior a lot on the ladder atm, and have gone 18-0 with a team using SubCM Serp total, and although people argue it has no niche when compared to Lilligant I would argue differently. It's high bulk and substitute lets it break stall efficiently, high speed tier makes it easier to set up on fastmons, and Overgrow often wins matches by giving you maximum recovery and insane power. It has a good niche in the metagame and is incredibly effective, albeit suffering its somewhat being outclassed by Lilligant. I can provide replays if needed.

Same Ranking
Why are Doge and Hippo in different rankings? Frankly, 100% of Doge's viability is as a result of Hippopotas, so it definitely shouldn't be placed higher, as it simply is not logical. IDC if they are both C- or if they are both D+, but I want to see them ranked side-by-side.

C to B/B+
Camerupt is awesome in the metagame at the moment and deserves to rise by quite a bit. I know its a massive jump, but frankly Camerupt has all the qualities of one of the best tanks and SR users in the current metagame. It consistently checks the tier's top Fire and Electric types due to its great bulk, while not being pressured by common Grass or Ice types that other SR users commonly are. Its unique typing and stat spread also means it has solid mixed bulk alongside great offenses making it difficult to set up on being able to run both Offensive Tank and Defensive Sets, and access to roar further bolsters this trait. IMO Camerupt is a massive threat in the metagame and has tons of utility, and is a truly unique pokemon with little to no competition.

C+ to C-/D+
Sorry Zebraiken babe :[[[[[[
Frankly when I look at C+ all the pokemon that Zebstrike is ranked alongside are better than it. Zebstrika is frankly rather weak and really only has its speed going for it, and although it has a niche I would argue that I would use any electric type from Rotom to Raichu before it :/

 

[Raseri]

I've been thinking about this a lot lately, and theres a few things that I would like to see changed as the metagame has evolved:


Rises:

A to A+

I'm a huge Missy fan right now, due to its 2 absolutely amazing sets. Both the Offensive and Stallbreaker set are fantastic in this metagame. The Offensive set destroys most balanced teams once Hariyama has been taken care of, and Hari is one of the easiest Pokemon to whittle down in NU. The sheer amount of options it has is also a part of what makes it a huge threat. Taunt + NP + 2 atk, Dbond + Taunt + 2 atk, Dbond + NP + 2 atk, even NP + 3 atk could work. Mismagius is a difficult Pokemon to predict, and no matter what it has, its a problem to deal with. It's also one of the best Spinblockers in the tier, and is faster than most Defoggers (Defog Archeops is faster i guess), and can Taunt them if you pull off a double switch. The stallbreaker (bulky) set is still really good as well, but I don't have enough experience to talk about it as much. This ghost is way better than Rotom.


Drops:

S to A+

With the way the metagame has been shifting lately, its gotten harder and harder for Slurpuff to set up. The Belly Drum set is still really threatening, but its inability to set up against standard teams really limits it. It either ends the game right near the beginning, or contributes almost nothing. The CM sets are good too, but they are still weak after a boost. Susceptibility to all forms of hazards also really sucks, because you just get worn down even quicker than usual. which when combined with like Kanga Fake Out or Gatr Aqua Jet, Slurpuff wont be doing much to most teams. I still think Slurpuff is a huge threat in the metagame, but its behind larger offensive threats like Mesprit, Feraligatr, even Typhlosion.

A+ to A

Archeops used to be a really amazing Pokemon, but lately the Stealth Rock lead set has become really bad. Due to the rise of Crustle, and the fact that Rampardos is a better Anti-Lead in many situations. The other sets are still really good, but just don't compare to the A+ Pokemon at all. Archeops really sticks out in that tier, as its barely better than most of the A-rank Pokemon right now. The offensive sets are still threatening, but 4MSS means that any well built team wont struggle with it to much. Good typing and great stats still make it worthy of A-rank though, imo.

I support dropping Audino to A-. It still holds stall together, but stall is pretty bad.

I have a few other suggestions I support but want to see discussed more.

Typhlosion from A+ to S. Really controversial, but Typhlosion is a top 3 threat in NU. I think its the king of A+ right now, and its ridiculous power might mean it deserves S. Thoughts?

Rhydon from A to A-. The meta isnt very nice to it right now. Spikes teams are everywhere and Rhydon cant really fight them very well, and has no lefties to get them back. It can check a lot of threats, but most of them only need to predict once to get past Rhydon.

Crustle from A- to A. Spikes are good.

Golem from B to B-/C+. What does it do?

Kricketune/Leavanny down to C+. Webs are no good anymore :(

Sandslash to B-. Still has a niche on balanced teams as a spinner, and Rock resist + electric immune is cool.

 

[Quite Quiet]

C+ to C-/D+
Sorry Zebraiken babe :[[[[[[
Frankly when I look at C+ all the pokemon that Zebstrike is ranked alongside are better than it. Zebstrika is frankly rather weak and really only has its speed going for it, and although it has a niche I would argue that I would use any electric type from Rotom to Raichu before it :/

zebstrika from c+ to c

Sandslash to B-. Still has a niche on balanced teams as a spinner, and Rock resist + electric immune is cool.

sandslash from c+ to b-

It's impressive how no one even reads the posts in this thread before saying things that already happened :[

Also, in order to not make this post entirely useless however, I'll say I have to disagree with Zebstrika dropping further. While base 80 Spa isn't more than decent it's the only one of the electric types that effectively deals with the grass types in the tier, alongside Rotom-S. It arguably woks better with Sap Sipper than either of the electric immunities right now, since it let's it deal with even QD lilligant at +1 without too much trouble thanks to Overheat. Not to mention it deals with steel types without relying on focus blast or not at all. It's not even that weak, idk what you are talking about, does like 5% less than rotom if neither use a boosting item, but since 116 >> 91 Zebstrika have no problems using one without getting outsped by a bunch of important stuff. It's also one of two electric types that outspeed archeops without a scarf, so that's nice.

Keep Zebstrika in C, it fits.

 

[Punchshroom]

A to A+

I'm a huge Missy fan right now, due to its 2 absolutely amazing sets. Both the Offensive and Stallbreaker set are fantastic in this metagame. The Offensive set destroys most balanced teams once Hariyama has been taken care of, and Hari is one of the easiest Pokemon to whittle down in NU. The sheer amount of options it has is also a part of what makes it a huge threat. Taunt + NP + 2 atk, Dbond + Taunt + 2 atk, Dbond + NP + 2 atk, even NP + 3 atk could work. Mismagius is a difficult Pokemon to predict, and no matter what it has, its a problem to deal with. It's also one of the best Spinblockers in the tier, and is faster than most Defoggers (Defog Archeops is faster i guess), and can Taunt them if you pull off a double switch. The stallbreaker (bulky) set is still really good as well, but I don't have enough experience to talk about it as much. This ghost is way better than Rotom.

Don't balanced teams use things like Ferroseed, Knock Off Seismitoad, and Knock Off Audino, all of which hurt Offensive Mismagius something fierce? The advantages Mismagius has is that it can easily bait foes to their death with Destiny Bond due to the threat of Nasty Plot, or it can use Taunt and its Ghost typing to function as a good anti-hazard user (although Rotom's Electric STAB gives it some competition in that aspect). However, Mismagius is too weak without a Life Orb or Nasty Plot, whereas it dies far, far too easily without the help of Colbur Berry, coupled with the fact that it is physically frail and susceptible to most forms of priority in the tier. I've never been a fan of Mismagius, and while Rotom is more geared toward the supportive role than Mismagius's more offensive nature, they seem to be on par imo. Not to mention that it doesn't look to be on par with the A+ Rank mons.

S to A+

With the way the metagame has been shifting lately, its gotten harder and harder for Slurpuff to set up. The Belly Drum set is still really threatening, but its inability to set up against standard teams really limits it. It either ends the game right near the beginning, or contributes almost nothing. The CM sets are good too, but they are still weak after a boost. Susceptibility to all forms of hazards also really sucks, because you just get worn down even quicker than usual. which when combined with like Kanga Fake Out or Gatr Aqua Jet, Slurpuff wont be doing much to most teams. I still think Slurpuff is a huge threat in the metagame, but its behind larger offensive threats like Mesprit, Feraligatr, even Typhlosion.

Yeah I think I can agree with this one.

A+ to A

Archeops used to be a really amazing Pokemon, but lately the Stealth Rock lead set has become really bad. Due to the rise of Crustle, and the fact that Rampardos is a better Anti-Lead in many situations. The other sets are still really good, but just don't compare to the A+ Pokemon at all. Archeops really sticks out in that tier, as its barely better than most of the A-rank Pokemon right now. The offensive sets are still threatening, but 4MSS means that any well built team wont struggle with it to much. Good typing and great stats still make it worthy of A-rank though, imo.

Isn't the Stealth Rock lead set almost a gimmick? I would believe Archeops has better things to be doing than try to pull an Anti-Lead set (really, had Rampardos been brought up earlier this Archeops shouldn't even be a thing). Archeops is one of the best all-out attackers in the tier because zomg dat speed tier, plus Flying + Ground coverage is still tough to wall no matter how much this meta changes, so I really don't know how one can say Archeops suffers from 4MSS. The other two moves can easily be customised to let Archeops do w/e the hell it wants: it can Roost to heal out of Defeatist and punish weak hit-and-run attempts, Taunt to stop stuff like Weezing and Sandslash from statusing it, Knock Off to smash Rotom and remove items, Stone Edge because apparently it isn't hard enough to stop already (also hits opposing Archeops), and then we have the mixed set of Archeops with Heat Wave and HP Grass that beats the shit out of anything that 'claims' to wall Archeops. This thing is one of the biggest reasons why priority is big in NU. Also I swear this bastard is the bane of Sticky Web teams fuk this burd

I support dropping Audino to A-. It still holds stall together, but stall is pretty bad.

Well it can work well on balance teams, so that's something. A- seems okay for this anyway.

Typhlosion from A+ to S. Really controversial, but Typhlosion is a top 3 threat in NU. I think its the king of A+ right now, and its ridiculous power might mean it deserves S. Thoughts?

On one hand, I can see why you'd nom this for S Rank. Boasting the most powerful Fire move in the tier that 2HKOes all but the bulkiest of resists is already great, and then when its health gets too low for Eruption to do its magic Typh can do a complete 180 and go Blaze Fire Blasts to continue torching the opponent. On the other hand, Typh seems to be less adapted to the current Fire checks when compared to Pyroar and Magmortar, especially when considering it cannot afford Life Orb. While I'm at it, Pyroar also boasts nearly as much offensive presence, except it also has some defensive utility in that it can check Slurpuff (due to Unnerve) and Mismagius, the latter being the A+ threat u wanted to rank :I , as well as being able to afford Will-O-Wisp, which imo is pretty on par with Typhlosion for the most part. Being Choice locked practically all of the time means Typhlosion gets forced out a lot, which isn't good for it when considering its weakness to hazards and priority (like Slurpuff :/). You may argue that anti-hazarding is easier now, so that makes Typh better, which brings me to....

Rhydon from A to A-. The meta isnt very nice to it right now. Spikes teams are everywhere and Rhydon cant really fight them very well, and has no lefties to get them back. It can check a lot of threats, but most of them only need to predict once to get past Rhydon.

If you're going to argue that Spikes are enough to drop Rhydon's ranking, then what of Typhlosion's vulnerability to literally all hazards? And can't I apply the prediction argument for Typhlosion, which can get pressured into trying to 'guess correctly' if hazards are in play? It's not so much that I strongly disagree on Rhydon dropping (since the meta seems to be leaning towards special attackers), but at least check to see if certain arguments risk conflicting with each other.

Crustle from A- to A. Spikes are good.

Access to Mental Herb and Red Card make it harder to stop/take advantage of, and you won't find out which is which without possibly wasting a turn to let Crustle get hazards up. I agree with this.

Golem from B to B-/C+. What does it do?

Not the SR setter it used to be :(

Kricketune/Leavanny down to C+. Webs are no good anymore :(

I miss Tomb so much ;_; RIP Webs

Sandslash to B-. Still has a niche on balanced teams as a spinner, and Rock resist + electric immune is cool.

Sandslash has always been cool guy. Agreed.

Edit:

Addressing the Typhlosion nomination again since it is pretty controversial. If Typhlosion is going to be nommed for S Rank due to sheer power alone, I'd like to see Pyroar also nommed for S Rank for both power and utility.

 

[Brawlfest]

Typhlosion from A+ to S. Really controversial, but Typhlosion is a top 3 threat in NU. I think its the king of A+ right now, and its ridiculous power might mean it deserves S. Thoughts?

Edit:

Addressing the Typhlosion nomination again since it is pretty controversial. If Typhlosion is going to be nommed for S Rank due to sheer power alone, I'd like to see Pyroar also nommed for S Rank for both power and utility.

Damn this fire mon shit is more controversial than the Abortion topic.

Seriously though I feel that Typhlosion and Pyroar should both stay in the A+ rank. They can be worn down rather easily and require tons of prediction to use, and in a hazard heavy metagame they must be limited to always being paired with a Defog / Rapid spinner. IMO They are amazing, but when either are really one trick ponies, and although they do their jobs really well, its not on the level at which Mesprit's Versatility or GATR Time consistently play at, and as a result they should remain A+.

 

[jake]

Isn't the Stealth Rock lead set almost a gimmick?

Don't have a lot of time right now to go into huge detail, but I just wanted to say that SR lead Archeops is most definitely not a gimmick in the sense that "it only works once if you don't know the set". It's a) the fastest SR user in NU, b) the only viable Pokemon with Taunt + SR, c) incredibly effective with Endeavor, being a huge help to teammates, and d) able to pseudo-spinblock with Head Smash (so long as you hit). It's been my favorite suicide lead for hyper offense variants for a long time running now, and I don't think you should dismiss that set. I don't know if I agree with dropping Archeops overall and will have to think about it.

 

[The Quasar]

I'm on iPhone, but I want to sketch some supports, whereof one of them newness.

Slurpluff S => A+
Mismagius A => A+
Kaboutops A => A+

 

[soulgazer]

the thing with Lead Archeops is that its not that good in this meta =/ Crustle beats it and is a common lead, and every teams can limit it to just set up SR before getting KO or force it out easily. Other Steath Rock setter on offense simply have more stuff they can do: Crustle has Spikes, Rampardos OHKO Crustle and can Stealth Rock without caring about Xatu, Rhydon (Rhydon + Qwilfish offense) can wallbreak with Swords Dance + set up SR (or even rock polish + sr is you are real) or go Specially Defensive to handle Fire-types the best it can.

Its best set is Taunt Roost and Mixed 3 Atk Roost imo, and they are def good enough to keep Archeops in A+

 

[Kiyo]

while i agree with sg about archeops not being as good in this meta as previous ones, I don't think its completely outclassed by rampardos. The whole endeavor thing is so good against teams that dont have crustle, teams that rely on mesprit or seismitoad to lay sr can be weakened pretty easily by lead archeops. regardless the fact that theres like 3 solid switch ins to 3 atk archeops makes it such a potent threat its top tier A+, the only thing holding it back is stealth rock being a thing tbh

 

[Dentricos]

Just posting my opinions on what other ppl think should move XD

Mismagius A ---> A+ (agreeing with Raseri)

This mon is pretty good with it's base 105 speed that it can use to consistently outspeed the majority of the tier. In addition to that it can set up on quite a few mons and pretty consistently make more then one pick before it dies. It also cannot be hurt by spikes/ t spikes and can often get a sub up before being statused. But it ensures it's usefulness with the ability to both use destiny bond an VERY SITUATIONALLY work as a temporary spin blocker.

Serperior D+ ---> C (Brawlfest)

This thing has caused problems for me in the past so I can see it moving up. Not sure about C+ though.

Hippopotas D ---> D (brawlfest)

I disagree with this moving up. As useful as sand steam is I feel like something else (like uxie for instance) can do a better job getying sandstorm up by actually using it as a move. Uxie also can set rocks, has better bulk, and can uturn out :/ Stoutland is fine being above hippo.

Camerupt C+ ---> B- (brawlfest)

I agree it should move up as it does have a huge use in it's ground typing. However imo B is too high for it due to the fact that this tier is jampacked with great water type sweepers that can repeatedly force this out or create a difficult mind game. If it had access to sturdy it would be more useful...

Zebstrika C ---> C (Brawlfest)

I feel like this has more use in it's speed and physical ability. As bad as it is I feel like it simply isn't worse then C at the moment. It can force pretty frail pokemon to switch and hit them up with a banded jolly pursuit. It also has good abilities in sap sipper to support it's banded stab volt tackle, and lighting rod to stop volt switches... also with a base 115 speed an quick attack for set up sweepers it does have some benifiys over evire who has better bulk/power/move coverage.

Slurpuff S ---> S (Raseri)

Ive never really seen the belly drum set as too much of a problem tbh. I feel like the calm mind set with access to dazzling gleam, draining kiss, flamethrower, surf, and psychic as coverage options allows it to be a threat against the vest majority of teams. Not only that people are forced not to switch against it because it COULD be belly drum. Finally it has the ability to run wish support with it's good typing. S rank looks for mons who can run this many sets effectively.

Archeops A+ ---> A/A+ (raseri)

I agree with this moving down. It is extremely viable in the tier but compared to the other mons in A+ it is quite easy to deal with considering defeatest and rock weakness. At the same time it can run multiple sets and is great with decent support :/ Not sure about this 1 tbh

Audino A ---> A+ (Raseri)

I disagree with tjis moving down. I actually think that it should be moving up if anything lol. Stall is quite good in NU if you have ever played qol, deej, or senable. The fact that it is weak to fighting isn't that big of a problem because they can justwish as you switch in, then switch to... say... rocky helment granbull. Now even if u predict that there are 2 full health walls alive and all u did was rack up hazard damage. It can then stop things from setting up om it by using encore, and take care of items with knock off. Personally I feel like this is one of the most useful and annoying mons in the tier.

Typhlosion A+ ---> A (Raseri)

Once again I think this mon should move in the opposite direction. Most fire spam walls/checks/counters can deal with it at the start of the match and any form of hazzards can sevearly weaken is favorite move eruption. Because of this it is forced to use its minimal coverage options. What I've found is the scarf set is fairly easy to wall while the specs set isn't fast enough to scare many frail things out.

Rhydon A ---> A- (Raseri)

Yeah as good as this is the fact that it gets rekt by so many coverage moves and is forced to run eviolite over other items makes it less viable then it could be. I support it moving down.

Crustle A- ---> A-/A (raseri)

I'm torn on this one tbh... it is greqt at it's job and can run sturdy red card for multiple uses but still I'm not sure if it would be better then the mons around it which are also good at their jobs. I could go either way. But ferroseed is also in the tier as a better spiker imo.

Kricketune/

Leavanny B- ---> C+ (raseri)

Yeah most of the time these just come in, get thier webs up, die, and then lose the web shortly after. I could definitely see these dropping.

Pyroar A+ ---> A+ (Punchshroom)

With better coverage and speed then typhlosion pyroar can be more affective at getting it's job done. I see it as better then average but still not nearly as much of a threat and win condition as those in S rank imo...

Kabutops A ---> A+ (The Quasar)

Yeah I can see this moving up. It has access yo great stab priority, rabid spin, swords dance, threatening dual stabs, and a great ability that works on rain teams. It has quite a few advantages over gatr and has ways to get around its major grass weakness. The only real problem is its lack of bulk but it can quite honestly run a good investment if used on rain.

 

[Deej Dy]

Agree with Ras on everything but Ty, (esp when we're riding the Ninetales train ;))

 

[ryan]

Pyroar and Typhlosion are both great mons and both fit really well in A+. The hazard weakness argument isn't very strong because Kabutops is such an incredible partner, both in terms of offensive and defensive synergy and in its ability to spin for them.

Flame Plate Pyroar is a fantastic lure to stuff like Kabutops, Seismitoad, Rhydon, etc. with HP Grass. It also burns stuff with Will-O-Wisp, which is huge for offensive teams because it can burn something to use as setup fodder later in the match. Plus, Normal STAB is hot. This is the set I've had the most success with, though Specs is also fun. I don't care for Scarf.

Specs and Scarf Typhlosion are both really fun sets. Scarf Typhlosion is one of my favorite late-game cleaners in the meta because it's so easy to bring it out and start clicking Eruption. Typhlosion is the better choice for S because the power difference is incomparable, but I'm still not fully convinced.

I've been arguing against Slurpuff in S since it was introduced to the tier, and I'll still argue for it to drop even more, down to A. It's pretty easy to prepare for Slurpuff in my experiences, and its lack of immediate power makes it pretty easy to stay in on it and attack it while it sets up. Last night, I stayed in on one with Hariyama and 2HKO'd with Bullet Punch while they tried to set up on me with Belly Drum. If they would have attacked, they'd have failed to OHKO my 0/0 Hariyama:

252+ Atk Slurpuff Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hariyama: 354-416 (82.5 - 96.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

If they'd have been Calm Mind, I'd have still been in decent shape because I had Fake Out + Bullet Punch on Hariyama and some other form of priority on another mon, probably Kabutops but I can't recall. In fact, the set I've had the most success with is the defensive set, which pairs exceedingly well with SpDef Seismitoad. It is versatile, but I don't think that any one set is good enough to push Slurpuff to A+.

I also agree with Kabutops for A+. I've found it really easy to slap onto any team because it's nearly impossible to build a team that isn't weak to either SR or Spikes and because its defensive typing is great for offensive teams.

I still think Rhydon warrants A, but I wouldn't be crushed if it dropped, so long as it didn't go to anywhere in B.

 

[Ares]

I've been thinking about this a lot lately, and theres a few things that I would like to see changed as the metagame has evolved:


Rises:

A to A+

I'm a huge Missy fan right now, due to its 2 absolutely amazing sets. Both the Offensive and Stallbreaker set are fantastic in this metagame. The Offensive set destroys most balanced teams once Hariyama has been taken care of, and Hari is one of the easiest Pokemon to whittle down in NU. The sheer amount of options it has is also a part of what makes it a huge threat. Taunt + NP + 2 atk, Dbond + Taunt + 2 atk, Dbond + NP + 2 atk, even NP + 3 atk could work. Mismagius is a difficult Pokemon to predict, and no matter what it has, its a problem to deal with. It's also one of the best Spinblockers in the tier, and is faster than most Defoggers (Defog Archeops is faster i guess), and can Taunt them if you pull off a double switch. The stallbreaker (bulky) set is still really good as well, but I don't have enough experience to talk about it as much. This ghost is way better than Rotom.

I agree with this rise, missy is really really good in this meta right now and it has ways to beat all of its checks.

Drops:

S to A+

With the way the metagame has been shifting lately, its gotten harder and harder for Slurpuff to set up. The Belly Drum set is still really threatening, but its inability to set up against standard teams really limits it. It either ends the game right near the beginning, or contributes almost nothing. The CM sets are good too, but they are still weak after a boost. Susceptibility to all forms of hazards also really sucks, because you just get worn down even quicker than usual. which when combined with like Kanga Fake Out or Gatr Aqua Jet, Slurpuff wont be doing much to most teams. I still think Slurpuff is a huge threat in the metagame, but its behind larger offensive threats like Mesprit, Feraligatr, even Typhlosion.

I disagree with this drop, while the metagame has shifted and adapted the same could be said about Gatr. Slurpuff can run 3 viable sets in the metagame and the offensive sets are the ones that are ridiculously scary. Belly Drum can setup quite easily against a variety of pokemon. It can also run 3 moves in its extra slot that let it beat the stuff that likes to check it. Substitute can be run to beat status (and then it also lets it beat priority), Protect can be run to beat Fake Out Kanga and Hariyama as both rely on Fake Out to get Slurpuff into a KO range for Bullet Punch or Sucker Punch, and Flamethrower can let it beat counters to the Belly Drum set like Ferroseed with prior damage. The Calm Mind set can run a variety of things with a variety of coverage that make it incredibly scary, it can run CM +3 Attacks (with either draining kiss or dazzling gleam), CM draining kiss and Cotton Guard (which makes status or a crit the only way you are taking down Slurpuff), Resto Chesto which lets slurpuff get rid of status and start a sweep whenever it feels like. One of the biggest things going for it is Draining Kiss which recovers a ridiculous amount after a couple of boosts and means you have to be able to straight up OHKO it to kill it. And then there is the defensive wish set (which i dont like lol) but has useful typing and all the traits of a good cleric.

A+ to A

Archeops used to be a really amazing Pokemon, but lately the Stealth Rock lead set has become really bad. Due to the rise of Crustle, and the fact that Rampardos is a better Anti-Lead in many situations. The other sets are still really good, but just don't compare to the A+ Pokemon at all. Archeops really sticks out in that tier, as its barely better than most of the A-rank Pokemon right now. The offensive sets are still threatening, but 4MSS means that any well built team wont struggle with it to much. Good typing and great stats still make it worthy of A-rank though, imo.

Dont agree with this, the Stealth Rock lead is actually really quite good still. It might now have competition from Crustle and the newly found Rampardos, but that doesnt mean that it is any worse. Ive played around with it recently and while Crustle does get the better matchup Archeops can get the better of a ton of other rock setters like toad and rhydon. Both of those mons are incredibly bulky and what ends up happening is they knock you down to sash no scald burn pls you have set up rocks and then you endeavor them before dying leaving a gaping hole in their team. The other offensive sets Archeops can run are terrifying, it does tend to suffer from 4MSS wanting a bunch of coverage moves roost and rocks, but overall this is still a really terrifying mon.



Something else I wanted to bring up is that if Typhlosion goes to S rank then Pyroar should as well.

Typhlosion A+ ---> A (Raseri)

Once again I think this mon should move in the opposite direction. Most fire spam walls/checks/counters can deal with it at the start of the match and any form of hazzards can sevearly weaken is favorite move eruption. Because of this it is forced to use its minimal coverage options. What I've found is the scarf set is fairly easy to wall while the specs set isn't fast enough to scare many frail things out.

You are really underselling Typhlosion here. Fire spam is incredibly scary and the specs set is not easy to wall whatsoever unless specially defensive Flareon with Flash Fire doing incredible chunks to pokemon that are supposed to counter it. You also are saying that its only real niche is Eruption, that is just wrong lol. Blaze Fire Blast is actually much more powerful than Eruption and means that Typhlosion can hit like a truck through out its life span.

252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino: 256-303 (62.4 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Blaze Typhlosion Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino: 283-334 (69 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[Raseri]

Don't balanced teams use things like Ferroseed, Knock Off Seismitoad, and Knock Off Audino, all of which hurt Offensive Mismagius something fierce? The advantages Mismagius has is that it can easily bait foes to their death with Destiny Bond due to the threat of Nasty Plot, or it can use Taunt and its Ghost typing to function as a good anti-hazard user (although Rotom's Electric STAB gives it some competition in that aspect). However, Mismagius is too weak without a Life Orb or Nasty Plot, whereas it dies far, far too easily without the help of Colbur Berry, coupled with the fact that it is physically frail and susceptible to most forms of priority in the tier. I've never been a fan of Mismagius, and while Rotom is more geared toward the supportive role than Mismagius's more offensive nature, they seem to be on par imo. Not to mention that it doesn't look to be on par with the A+ Rank mons.

Missy can choose to get around any of those checks if it wants to. NP + HP Fighting + Taunt means Audino basically loses to it, although youll always lose the Speed tie to other Missy, sometimes its worth it. Seismitoad is a pretty shaky check anyways, but it still loses to some Missy variants. Ferroseed does pretty good, but Taunt renders it helpless outside of Gyro Ball, and at the very least Missy can stop Ferroseed from accomplishing anything.

The thing about Missy is just how important it is in the metagame right now, on the generic Crustle offense team, I find Missy does a great job at holding the team together. Being a spinblocker, Fighting-check, Zangoose check. Fast taunt. Missy just has so many positive traits right now I still think Rotom is really good, and STAB Volt Switch is great, but its just so much easier to take advantage of.

]If you're going to argue that Spikes are enough to drop Rhydon's ranking, then what of Typhlosion's vulnerability to literally all hazards? And can't I apply the prediction argument for Typhlosion, which can get pressured into trying to 'guess correctly' if hazards are in play? It's not so much that I strongly disagree on Rhydon dropping (since the meta seems to be leaning towards special attackers), but at least check to see if certain arguments risk conflicting with each other.

This isn't really an argument at all. The majority of Rhydon's utility is based on its ability to check threats. Most of the time, a 20% Rhydon is basically a dead Rhydon (unless youre vsing Kanga or something). Typhlosion doesn't like hazards, because it prefers spamming Eruption > Fire Blast. But Blaze Fire Blast is stronger than Eruption. And Kabutops is like the perfect partner for Typhlosion anyways :) Rhydon doesn't have the perfect partner hazard remover

Edit:

Addressing the Typhlosion nomination again since it is pretty controversial. If Typhlosion is going to be nommed for S Rank due to sheer power alone, I'd like to see Pyroar also nommed for S Rank for both power and utility.

idk how I feel about this. I usually find it a lot easier to put Typh on a team than Pyroar, mainly due to the lack of Fighting weakness, and an actual useful ability. I'm not opposed to this, because I think they're both top tier threats in NU. I'm remaining neutral on this nomination[/quote]




My nominations are based on my observations watching high level players and battling them. In those matches, I see way more Typhlosion than Pyroar. Very few Slurpuff, and a lot of Mismagius. And almost 0 Archeops.

I'm not opposed to moving Kabutops up, its utility and power are great. Competition from Gatr keeps it out of S though.

I wont fight to drop Archeops, but its been a long time since I've seen one used well :(

 

[soulgazer]

lets not forget that Typhlosion is pretty much one of the main reason every teams run AT LEAST 2 solid switch ins to Fire-types, and that Typhlosion can still break through anyway since most of them either have no reliable recovery or aren't good in this meta. Hari is 2HKOed by Choice Specs Extrasensory if it doesn't use Max Spdef, which is really amazing when you know that AV Hariyama is like one of the most common special tank in the tier. Seismitoad and Rhydon hates taking Fire Blast and Eruption. Lanturn is hurt by HP Grass, Regirock can lose too (not hard to weaken when it will most likely get hurt when setting up SR), and Dragalge is 2HKOed by Extrasensory too. and unlike Pyroar, Typhlosion can use entry hazards to its own advantage by spammin Choice Specs Blaze Fire Blast, which is stronger than a full health Eruption.Oh and please don't bring up that locking itself on HP Grass and Extrasensory is bad when it will most likely only need to use it once or twice, switch out, come back in later and spam its STABs.

Pyroar does have its pros and cons, but its pros aren't enough to make it better than Typhlosion. If Typhlosion goes in S (which I support btw), Pyroar should stay in A+.

edit: about Archeops not being used a lot tbh I think its mostly because its kinda hard to build with it since most of the time it will be like the last mon you add on a team, so like a glue (kanga check + can 'stallbreak' with roost taunt, or like a lure with 3 atk roost)

edit#2: as for slurpuff, I wouldn't mind it to be in A+, never was S for me. it is a threatening pokemon, but can't do much unless it sets up.

 

[Toljik]

I'm going to have to explain this one, but Raticate for C- rank.

Raticate is usually used as a Guts sweeper, but hat's not the set that deserves a ranking spot.

It's this one.

Raticate @ Life Orb
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Return / Double Edge
- Sucker Punch
- Taunt / Swords Dance
- U-turn / Wild Charge / Flame Wheel / Grass Knot

Hustle, at the cost of a loss of accuracy, gives Raticate similar power and Speed to Haxorus, while Life Orb gives Raticate additional power that the Guts set can't have. Unlike Durant in RU, its STAB moves have good Base Power.

Between Double-Edge and Sucker Punch, it can 2HKO or 1HKO pretty much anything in NU, including some resists like Pawniard and Klinklang. The walls that can take Raticate can be crippled by Taunt or a coverage move. Flame Wheel is solely for Ferroseed, and Grass Knot solely for Rhydon and Kabutops.

Of course, it's still ridiculously frail, and Zangoose's STAB hits a little bit harder (though it has to wait for Guts to activate). But I would say it's more effective than anything in D rank.

 

[marilli]

Do you realize Hustle and Guts give basically the same damage, without having the 20% chance of missing and getting OHKOed in return? Unlike Durant, it doesn't have the defensive stats nor the typing. Guts also allows Raticate to use Facade, which with higher base power than Double-Edge. Guts Raticate does not risk missing and doing nothing 20% of the time, and actually takes less self-inflicted damage than Life Orb Double-Edge. All that for not having to get Toxic Orb activated, which honestly isn't even that hard. And I guess special coverage moves, but they're iffy at best. So this is your risk - reward. You're risking doing 0 damage 20% of the times for a very minor boost in damage. Unless that damage boost actually secures significant OHKOs, I don't see it happening. Even if it were significant, you could just U-turn on it once and now you're going to OHKO it later on.

I know Raticate's extent of strength. It's actually not-terrible normal-type spammer because it U-turns well without having to spin. The usual U-turn on Normal-spam, Swellow, is weak to SR which is somewhat unfortunate because U-turn forces you to switch out. But that's basically it. Raticate in XY NU isn't fast quite fast enough. You get outsped by almost all offensive mons because there's more speedy threats like Sceptile and the Fire-types, Archeops, etc. It's weak to priority, etc. It's not tanky like Kangaskhan, Miltank, or even Tauros. If anything, from what you have there, Life Orb GK 2HKOing Rhydon is probably the best gimmick part of the set, but gimmick LO special attacks is often done better by Tauros.

It's honestly not terrible, but Raticate just has so many stuff that just does things better.

 

[Shuckleking87]

Raticate probably should be running jolly to outspeed base 95's, which is something that zangoose cannot do. But if raticate is running jolly, adamant zangoose does 38% more damage with facade than return, as well as having better coverage moves in cc and knock off (also more reliable stab priority move in quick attack. And it's not too difficult to get zangoose in and get its boost activated. taunt is an interesting move, but the only wall that you could actually take a hit from consistently is knock off audino. Flame wheel has about a 50% chance to ohko which is nice if it hits. But I really dont see much of a niche for this, though I think it going in D is ok, especially because it can also do a flame orb set while outspeeding leafeon and jynx, which is convenient.