Resource LC Viability Rankings

[apt-get]

Dunno why, but most of the time, I simply use cottonee on teams to quickly patch up some scrags weakness or for memento/fast taunt, it can be pretty useful but it's a niche glue, just like gunk, but yea it really helps against most hyper offense teams
B sounds nice

Why do people want to drop houndour? It's fucking insane, nothing takes an LO fire blast. It SHOULDN'T be dropped, LO gastly is completely different and suffers from 4 moveslot syndrome.

Elekid is weak as fuck, not that good of a revenge killer / wallbreaker... Just leave it in C+/C

Rattata is irrelevant

Nincada is shit, leave it unranked (macle rank isn't even good since people don't even use it)

 

[Jetpack]

Zigzagoon B+ -> A-
Where do i even begin with this? With the lack of ghosts lurking around due to knock off spam, Zigzagoon can have a field day on most teams. Once a belly drum is up, via a cottonee memento or any other free switch, Zigzagoon is free to sweep. The stab E-speed coming from a plus six Zigzagoon does massive damage to anything that isn't resisting it. With Mienfoo being as good as it is, pared up with this, a game can be over before it's even began. He can thief away eviloites to be even bulker if the situation sees fit. I think a A- is good for Zigzagoon because of the team support needed to make it work to full potential, but the overall reward being devastating.

 

[apt-get]

Zigzagoon B+ -> A-
Where do i even begin with this? With the lack of ghosts lurking around due to knock off spam, Zigzagoon can have a field day on most teams. Once a belly drum is up, via a cottonee memento or any other free switch, Zigzagoon is free to sweep. The stab E-speed coming from a plus six Zigzagoon does massive damage to anything that isn't resisting it. With Mienfoo being as good as it is, pared up with this, a game can be over before it's even began. He can thief away eviloites to be even bulker if the situation sees fit. I think a A- is good for Zigzagoon because of the team support needed to make it work to full potential, but the overall reward being devastating.

nah, too much team support, team matchup-reliant, and needs a whole archetype for itself: if you make a single mistake, your sweep is gone

Zigzagoon is fine where it is, I'd even say it should fall down to B or B-

 

[Tymano]

Although belly-drum-espeed from a zigzagoon is not to be reckoned with, it has alot of counters, such as burn, gastly, steel types, other ghost types, sucker punch, and even cottonee encore.
Plus, when your putting up that first belly-drum, your defenseless.
A few calculations I have done

+6 196+ Atk Zigzagoon Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pawniard: 10-12 (47.6 - 57.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+6 196+ Atk Zigzagoon Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magnemite: 16-20 (84.2 - 105.2%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (plus add sturdy+berry juice)
+6 196+ Atk Zigzagoon Extreme Speed vs. 116 HP / 236+ Def Eviolite Slowpoke: 18-22 (66.6 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+6 196+ Atk Zigzagoon Extreme Speed vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 18-22 (66.6 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

In the meantime, the opposing pokemon could wish+protect, thunder wave, burn, or set up. Or it could go for the straight up damage.
A few more calculations I have done.


236+ Atk Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 132 HP / 28 Def Zigzagoon: 18-22 (81.8 - 100%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
240+ SpA Magnemite Flash Cannon vs. 132 HP / 108 SpD Zigzagoon: 15-18 (68.1 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
36 SpA Slowpoke Scald vs. 132 HP / 108 SpD Zigzagoon: 7-10 (31.8 - 45.4%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (burn is possible)
12 SpA Spritzee Moonblast vs. 132 HP / 108 SpD Zigzagoon: 12-15 (54.5 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

As well, many other pokemon can do a lot of damage to zigzagoon. And well, you give your opponent a free turn+ you can't switch out unless you want to lose your attack boosts.
I would rank zigzagoon around a B+ or B rank

 

[Shrug]

Wait Chinchou is still A-rank

It's the main special component of the best team archetype (VoltTurn), it stops Fletchling, it runs multiple sets that nearly always work for what you need them to, it hits hard with Hydro Pump and gains momentum with Volt Switch, it hits 17 speed, and has tremendous utility in spreading status or clearing it for your team, what more does it need to do it's S-rank

 

[Celestavian]

Wait Chinchou is still A-rank

It's the main special component of the best team archetype (VoltTurn), it stops Fletchling, it runs multiple sets that nearly always work for what you need them to, it hits hard with Hydro Pump and gains momentum with Volt Switch, it hits 17 speed, and has tremendous utility in spreading status or clearing it for your team, what more does it need to do it's S-rank

You misspelled "Balance", it's not the only Fletch stopper, it runs multiple versions of the same set that make it only slightly less predictable, "it hits hard" is an overstatement, hits a nice Speed tier, and has a 30% chance to burn stuff with Scald or a 100% chance to paralyze super-speedy switch-ins with Thunder Wave such as Lileep, Foongus, Timburr, and opposing Chinchou. Sounds A rank to me.

 

[Shrug]

You misspelled "Balance", it's not the only Fletch stopper, it runs multiple versions of the same set that make it only slightly less predictable, "it hits hard" is an overstatement, hits a nice Speed tier, and has a 30% chance to burn stuff with Scald or a 100% chance to paralyze super-speedy switch-ins with Thunder Wave such as Lileep, Foongus, Timburr, and opposing Chinchou. Sounds A rank to me.

VoltTurn is either better than balance or the two are the same thing (Mienfoo + Chou + Larvesta / anything else applies to both), stopping Flecth isn't the only use, the "same set" can either be a revenge killer (Scarf) a wall (Evio RestTalk) or a momentum grabber w/ utility (Berry Juice) which seems like a variety of roles to me, it hits hard enough and is fast enough while clearing status for your team, Thunder Wave is mainly to switch in and use on something like Foo or Pawniard if your team needs to cripple them.

Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the LC metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this tier have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.

A variety of roles effectively with few flaws sounds good to me

 

[Justintown11]

Now when it comes to momentum pokemon it's obviously important to remember how well they matchup against their targets. This I feel is especially important when talking about chinchou as it's the water-electric typing allows it perform very well in terms of gaining momentum simply because, withing a vacuum, chinchou is almost guaranteed to always obtain momentum on any team that does not carry trace porygon.
Certainly, if a player switches in his/her diglett or drilbur into a chinchou predicting a volt switch, that obviously ruins their opponent's momentum; however, you have to consider the axiom that chinchou potentially KO both of those mons with a potential water type attack.
When determining the viability of chinchou one also has to consider the concept of just how well chinchou does against hyper offensive playstyles simply because when looking at a list of things that do well against chinchou, they're special walls and grass type pokemon and timburr, which can really throw off offensive teams simply because team like those one of those teams have the flexibility towards having something like foongus or munchlax hurt their momentum. For these reasons chinchou definitely fits the definition of an S-tier pokemon within the LC metagame

 

[Eren Yeagar]

Just going to give some thoughts about the current points of discussion.
Bold = what rank it should be.

Pawniard - S Rank --> A+ Rank
I don't think Pawniard should go down to A+ rank at all. It still has amazing capabilities such as having a strong STAB Knock Off that it can abuse and support your team. Plus, it has Sucker Punch, which is an amazing STAB priority move. Iron Head is awesome for when it can fish for those 30% flinches and still do a good amount of damage. You can even run Stealth Rocks on your Eviolite Pawniard and it'll still be threatening. Defiant is a good ability to use annoying moves your opponent uses such as Sticky Web and Defog to your benefit by raising your attack up by 2 stages. With Misdreavus being banned, Pawniard doesn't have to be restricted to a Choice Scarf set now and you can run Life Orb or Eviolite as an item, which definitely makes Pawniard's viability in this metagame better. Yes, Pawniard is extremely weak against the common Mienfoo and Timburr, but that's just a flaw that's patched up by its amazing traits. Pawniard should stay at S rank because of all its positive traits and by how well it does at its role as an LC mon.

Cottonee - A Rank --> A- Rank or even lower
I do agree with GlassGlaceon about how Cottonee should go down to Rank A- or even lower because of the fall of pokes it used to counter in the missy era. I'm going to expand some of glass' ideas in this post. Its offensive stats are abysmal with its base attack stat at 27 and base special attack being 37. It does have pretty good bulk boasting 40/60/50 defensive stats. Prankster is an awesome ability for Cottonee since it has many status moves such as Stun Spore and Encore it can use, which it could put to good use. But after Misdreavus' ban, things seem to fall down with Cottonee. First off, the rise of Foongus does not help Cottonee at all since Foongus can just come in and destroy Cottonee with a Sludge Bomb and Cottonee can't do anything to it since Foongus takes its STABs and status moves. Shell smashers such as Omanyte and Tirtouga(Shell smashing tirt, not bulky tirt) have also plummet down in usage after Misdreavus' ban. This also applies to set up sweepers such as Scraggy, who also has been plummeting in usage and viability. Since one of Cottonee's advantages was stopping set up sweepers cold, Cottonee just lost a lot of its usefullness. I think Cottonee has its time in A rank, so hopefully it moves down to A- or lower. I'm not saying it's bad and has no viability; it's still is useful by all means, but it just lost a bit of usefullness as its main role at being a utility poke.

Oddish - C rank --> C-/D Rank
I completely agree with Yagura about Oddish going down in ranks. It's just a badder Bellsprout that doesn't have access to Weather Ball, which is why Bellsprout is much more better than it. The niche of having Dazzling Gleam instead of Bellsprout is meh too.

 

[pokefantalha]

Why is Dwebble so low on the list? He is AMAZING at sweeping.
Dwebble @ Berry Juice
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 36 SpD / 236 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shell Smash
- Rock Blast
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
Shell Smash on the first turn. When the opponent hits you and Sturdy+Berry Juice activates, check if your opponent has any Priority Users. If they do, start attacking. If they dont, Shell Smash again until sturdy is activated again.

 

[Yagura]

Why is Dwebble so low on the list? He is AMAZING at sweeping.
Dwebble @ Berry Juice
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 36 SpD / 236 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shell Smash
- Rock Blast
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
Shell Smash on the first turn. When the opponent hits you and Sturdy+Berry Juice activates, check if your opponent has any Priority Users. If they do, start attacking. If they dont, Shell Smash again until sturdy is activated again.

The reason why Dwebble is too low is that its Shell Smash is totally outclassed by Tirtouga, while Dwebble has better Speed Tirtouga has better Attack, bulk which allows it to even benefit from Solid Rock (Sturdy Tirtouga is used too and can be better to use in various situations), and offensive typing (yeah Rock-type is a decent offensive type the Bug-type doesn't hit much stuff super effectively, hence why you're not even using a Bug attack), this offensive typing allows Tirtouga to get STAB Waterfall and a STAB priority in Aqua Jet. Another thing is that its weak to Stealth Rock which means that Sturdy will often be broken as its a late game sweeper, this makes a spinner/defogger always necessary to carry along with it which means more team support (a thing that is specified in the B-rank description). Also Dwebble can be dealt with using some common threats like Mienfoo, Cottonee, Foongus and Timburr that completely wall it, Pawniard and Fletchling that can KO it with Sucker Punch and Acrobatics respectively at -1, Drilbur that can OHKO it with Rock Slide at -1 thanks to Mold Breaker and more..

Also keep in mind that most Dwebble set used in the current meta is the hazards stacking set which isn't even too good anymore with Misdreavus that used to be the best spinblocker in the meta banned. So, Dwebble fits perfectly in B+.

 

[apt-get]

The reason why Dwebble is too low is that its Shell Smash is totally outclassed by Tirtouga, while Dwebble has better Speed Tirtouga has better Attack, bulk which allows it to even benefit from Solid Rock (Sturdy Tirtouga is used too and can be better to use in various situations), and offensive typing (yeah Rock-type is a decent offensive type the Bug-type doesn't hit much stuff super effectively, hence why you're not even using a Bug attack), this offensive typing allows Tirtouga to get STAB Waterfall and a STAB priority in Aqua Jet. Another thing is that its weak to Stealth Rock which means that Sturdy will often be broken as its a late game sweeper, this makes a spinner/defogger always necessary to carry along with it which means more team support (a thing that is specified in the B-rank description). Also Dwebble can be dealt with using some common threats like Mienfoo, Cottonee, Foongus and Timburr that completely wall it, Pawniard and Fletchling that can KO it with Sucker Punch and Acrobatics respectively at -1, Drilbur that can OHKO it with Rock Slide at -1 thanks to Mold Breaker and more..

Also keep in mind that most Dwebble set used in the current meta is the hazards stacking set which isn't even too good anymore with Misdreavus that used to be the best spinblocker in the meta banned. So, Dwebble fits perfectly in B+.

Eh
Dwebble has rock blast, which allows it to KO sash abra and a variety of stuff easier than smash tirtouga. It's also really faster, outspeeding even the fastest scarfers after a smash, which is really nice
The sturdy argument doesn't hold up, as tirtouga has that problem too: it's not about the SR weakness, it's just about sturdy being broken. Of course, you could argue about Smash solid rock, but that set is slightly worse overall in a sweeping objective than sturdysmashtouga.
Dwebble isn't weak to fighting either, meaning it can usually get two hits on things like mienfoo, even if sturdy is broken. Cottonee and Foongus HATE taking rock blast, and mienfoo is 2HKOed by earthquake most of the time. Timburr is pretty much the only one that walls it.
Pawniard plays a risky game with berry juice and sturdy, since eq OHKOes. There's also the smash mindgames. Yeah, fletchling revenges it, but that's just one thing. Drilbur only has a 50% chance to KO with Rock Slide, too (236 Atk Mold Breaker Drilbur Rock Slide vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Dwebble: 20-24 (95.2 - 114.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO), and I see more poison jab drilbur than rock slide ones nowadays.

Dwebble is a legit threat, yeah it should be higher in my opinion.

 

[Yagura]

Eh
Dwebble has rock blast, which allows it to KO sash abra and a variety of stuff easier than smash tirtouga. It's also really faster, outspeeding even the fastest scarfers after a smash, which is really nice

I give you those two lone niches, even though Tirtouga can also deal with Sash Abra using Waterfall (or Stone Edge, EQ, Knock Off) then finish it off with Aqua Jet but only if it has Sturdy and it's 100%.

The sturdy argument doesn't hold up, as tirtouga has that problem too: it's not about the SR weakness, it's just about sturdy being broken. Of course, you could argue about Smash solid rock, but that set is slightly worse overall in a sweeping objective than sturdysmashtouga.

I don't know what you're talking about, having a 25% weakness to Stealth Rock is totally different than having a 12.5% weakness to it especially with Dwebble's relatively low bulk. And yeah, if you want to use Shell Smash Tirtouga then Sturdy is usually the ability you should go with but like I said each of Sturdy and Solid Rock have situations when one is better than the other.

Dwebble isn't weak to fighting either, meaning it can usually get two hits on things like mienfoo, even if sturdy is broken. Cottonee and Foongus HATE taking rock blast, and mienfoo is 2HKOed by earthquake most of the time. Timburr is pretty much the only one that walls it.

I wasn't talking about Mienfoo switching in I'm sorry if I made it sound that way but I thought you'd figure it out, I meant that Mienfoo (the bulky set ofc) can proceed with Knock Off to remove Berry Juice (which does 52%~62%) while Dwebble Shell Smashes (keep in mind that fast Foo can outspeed and Taunt) then KO with Drain Punch after living the EQ which does 52% to 66%, I kind of broke the definition of a wall sorry but I think you've got the point.
Foongus and Cottonee can switch in safely into Dwebble when a Shell Smash is predicted, well not a lot of people predict Shell Smash as it's becoming really rare), the first can live Stone Edge or Rock Blast unless it hits five time and the second can cripple it with Encore.

Pawniard plays a risky game with berry juice and sturdy, since eq OHKOes. There's also the smash mindgames. Yeah, fletchling revenges it, but that's just one thing. Drilbur only has a 50% chance to KO with Rock Slide, too (236 Atk Mold Breaker Drilbur Rock Slide vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Dwebble: 20-24 (95.2 - 114.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO), and I see more poison jab drilbur than rock slide ones nowadays.
Dwebble is a legit threat, yeah it should be higher in my opinion.

I've mentioned that Pawniard and Fletchling revenge kill it if Stealth Rock is up which is an always important thing to consider.

Dwebble is a legit threat, yeah it should be higher in my opinion.

That's right and I totally agree with it, the decrease of Shell Smash Dwebble's usage made a lot of people forget about it thus building teams that are weak to it but still I think it fits the B-rank description perfectly:

Reserved for Pokemon who are great in the LC metagame: Dwebble is great, as a Shell Smasher and hazards stacker.
These Pokemon have more notable flaws than of those above it that affects how they function in the tier: this is kind of obvious and my current post and the one above showed some of it.
Their positive traits still outshine their negatives: Indeed.
but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential: like hazard removers to keep Sturdy activated and spinblockers for the hazards stacking set.

Btw, I think Tirtouga should drop too but I'll be talking about it in another time. And I think we should also discuss how good Dwebble's hazards stacking ability is, I tried out the set several times in teams consisting of a late game sweeper/cleaner and it helped me most of the times.

 

[Dustflier]

I give you those two lone niches, even though Tirtouga can also deal with Sash Abra using Waterfall (or Stone Edge, EQ, Knock Off) then finish it off with Aqua Jet but only if it has Sturdy and it's 100%.


I don't know what you're talking about, having a 25% weakness to Stealth Rock is totally different than having a 12.5% weakness to it especially with Dwebble's relatively low bulk. And yeah, if you want to use Shell Smash Tirtouga then Sturdy is usually the ability you should go with but like I said each of Sturdy and Solid Rock have situations when one is better than the other.


I wasn't talking about Mienfoo switching in I'm sorry if I made it sound that way but I thought you'd figure it out, I meant that Mienfoo (the bulky set ofc) can proceed with Knock Off to remove Berry Juice (which does 52%~62%) while Dwebble Shell Smashes (keep in mind that fast Foo can outspeed and Taunt) then KO with Drain Punch after living the EQ which does 52% to 66%, I kind of broke the definition of a wall sorry but I think you've got the point.
Foongus and Cottonee can switch in safely into Dwebble when a Shell Smash is predicted, well not a lot of people predict Shell Smash as it's becoming really rare), the first can live Stone Edge or Rock Blast unless it hits five time and the second can cripple it with Encore.


I've mentioned that Pawniard and Fletchling revenge kill it if Stealth Rock is up which is an always important thing to consider.


That's right and I totally agree with it, the decrease of Shell Smash Dwebble's usage made a lot of people forget about it thus building teams that are weak to it but still I think it fits the B-rank description perfectly:

Reserved for Pokemon who are great in the LC metagame: Dwebble is great, as a Shell Smasher and hazards stacker.
These Pokemon have more notable flaws than of those above it that affects how they function in the tier: this is kind of obvious and my current post and the one above showed some of it.
Their positive traits still outshine their negatives: Indeed.
but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential: like hazard removers to keep Sturdy activated and spinblockers for the hazards stacking set.

Btw, I think Tirtouga should drop too but I'll be talking about it in another time. And I think we should also discuss how good Dwebble's hazards stacking ability is, I tried out the set several times in teams consisting of a late game sweeper/cleaner and it helped me most of the times.

Hazard Stacking Dwebble is actually pretty good when I've used it, since it functions very similarly to how Scolipede functions in OU/Ubers. Basically, it's sole purpose is getting up Hazards due to it's good speed so your other mons have an easier time cleaning late game. It does have some pretty flaws though. You basically are playing 5v6 with it because it dies at the start of the match, unless you manage to take something down with like Counter.

If we're talking about Dwebble as a Hazard setter, then we should also talk about Omanyte, who has access to Toxic Spikes and Scald, as well as being being overall bulkier. Dwebble is faster though, so that's something to consider.

I hope we talk about this more, SpikeStacking is a really fun playstyle IMO n_n

 

[Sken]

Okay, I'd like to prupose this:

Bunelby - B+ Rank --> A-/A Rank (maybe A+, but not yet)
Since Missdreavus ban, Bunnelby's utility has increased a huge. This poke hasn't got a bad attack at all, but if you put huge power on it, it will become a monster. It can easily OHKO/2HKO all the metagame (excluding a few exceptions) with a powerfull 102 BP + STAB move called Return and a lot of coverage moves, like Earthquake to deal with rock/steel types, Thief for things like Gastly, Stone Edge, Wild Charge, etc. (not including the new tutor moves). And it has also STAB priority with Quick Attack, and U-Turn too! It's not too fast but put it has priority as I said before and it can run a scarf. That's my point.

 

[kingmidas]

Why is Bunnelby only B+? It has enough potential to be A- or maybe A. (Placeholder to develop)

It has obvious flaws such as crappy stab, and is walled by key mons which is bad when even stuff like ferro can does 50% to a mon on a neutral hit. Its support is generally worth running if you want it but clear issues hold it back. Also the fact why run bunnelby when stuff like fletchling/ziggy are there to either gain momentum/clean better or just flat out sweep (albeit it has even more support required). I made an edit but my computer glitched so I'll shorten it. LO has 4mss and is at a good but at the same time crippling speed tier, as 17 speed tie with some shit that beats it really easily, while it loses to nearly all the 18 speeders because it can't OHKO them first anymore without scarf. Scarf it is best set with stone edge/wild charge, earthquake, u-turn and return.

 

[Iron Caliber]

I'd just like to bring something up.

Why is Koffing still B-rank? It has good physical bulk and a variety of status moves, but its attacking stats are very poor and its Speed is also very lacking. Even with Eviolite, its Special Defense is very disappointing. Besides Fighting and Fairy, it doesn't have any key resistances, and even then, if it ever gets hit by Knock Off, its bulk becomes very unimpressive, and Pain Split, while helpful, isn't always reliable as recovery. It's very easy to wear down with switch-in damage, burn damage, or Stealth Rock damage. Its Fighting and Fairy resistances are also better covered by other Pokemon in the metagame that also can have an offensive presence, unlike Koffing. Ponyta, for example, resists Fairy and can check Cottonee, Spritzee, and the occasional Snubbull with ease. As for Fighting types, Croagunk can act as a check that resists both Fighting and Dark, and Foongus can have a better defensive role than Koffing with better bulk, recovery, ability, and Spore being a superior status move to Will-o-wisp or Thunder Wave.

Levitate doesn't mean very much when Drilbur, the main Earthquake-user in the tier, ignores it completely, so really the only EQ you're going to dodge with it is a stray Diglett or Archen, the latter of which has more effective STABs that can do just as much work. Koffing seems like a very niche Diglett check, because it can burn Diglett and not fall victim to Sucker Punch, and stay away from EQ with Levitate, but that's really the only benefit in the metagame that Levitate gives to a Pokemon like Koffing.

Not to mention, hard-hitting Psychic moves run rampant in LC. Abra is one of the greatest threats in the LC metagame, and its Psychic is enough to rip holes in any defensive Pokemon, much less Koffing, which has no tools it can use to deter a special sweeper. There are also a multitude of Pokemon who may be running Psychic or Zen Headbutt in their sets as coverage moves to check all of the Fighting types in the meta, which can be difficult for Koffing to get around, even with well-placed burns from Will-o-wisp.

Koffing: B- rank --> C+ rank or lower

 

[apt-get]

It has obvious flaws such as crappy stab, and is walled by key mons which is bad when even stuff like ferro can does 50% to a mon on a neutral hit. Its support is generally worth running if you want it but clear issues hold it back. Also the fact why run bunnelby when stuff like fletchling/ziggy are there to either gain momentum/clean better or just flat out sweep (albeit it has even more support required). I made an edit but my computer glitched so I'll shorten it. LO has 4mss and is at a good but at the same time crippling speed tier, as 17 speed tie with some shit that beats it really easily, while it loses to nearly all the 18 speeders because it can't OHKO them first anymore without scarf. Scarf it is best set with stone edge/wild charge, earthquake, u-turn and return.

bunnelby is 16 speed, j/s

 

[Corporal Levi]

Snubbull: B+ ->A-
Scraggy: A- ->B+
Staryu: B- ->B
Oddish: C -> C-
Koffing: B- ->C+

B+ really isn't low by any stretch; B rank as a whole is "reserved for Pokemon who are great in the LC metagame", and B+ Pokemon are considered even better than the average B rank Pokemon, if only slightly. Both of the important Dwebble sets (hazards and ss) have obvious and exploitable weaknesses, but the two sets occupy different niches and are both very effective at what they do, which is why Dwebble is ranked as high as B+. I personally consider anything C+ or over as well as some mid C mons legitimate threats.

Pawniard is probably staying where it is for the time being; the same applies for Timburr, but it looks like the debate is a little bit less one-sided so good arguments are still welcome (same for Pawniard if there are any left).

Here are some other possible points of discussion that have been brought up -
Cottonee: A -> A-
Dwebble: B+ ->B
Bellsprout: B- -> B
Riolu: B- -> B
Chespin: C -> C+/B-

 

[gali]

Cottonee should move down - setup sweepers (with the exception of Zig who wins anyway) are in decline, and wven then, a Cottonee switch is really obvious. Plus, Foongus gives zero shits about anything it runs. On the other hand, Chespin should move up, although I think B- is pushing it a bit - it's a reliable Spikes setter that completely walls threats like Gastly and Bellsprout, and hurts a lot of common switchins with Rock Slide. Everything else on the list should stay where it is. Also, can someone explain to me the Snubbull move? While Intimidate is nice, I find it to be a lot less reliable then Spritzee.

On a completely different note, Onix needs to go up a rank or more. This thing is easily the most reliable Stealth Rock setter in the game, sporting high Speed, Sturdy, titanic physical bulk, and most importantly access to Taunt. STAB EdgeQuake is also really nice, and puts a dent into pretty much anything that wants to switch in despite Onix's middling Attack. Basically, it has a lot of really good traits that make it great in the current meta and deserving of at least B+.

 

[boo836]

Carv ought to be dropping at least to B+. Considering that it struggles to beat a vast amount of A and S mons and finds itself utterly walled by common grass types in the metagame, I don't see why it should be as high as it is. Foongus, Sprits, Snubbull, Ferro, Gunk, Timburr, Fletch, and so much more can just kick its ass with little to no trouble.

Speaking of Gunk, let's raise it up to A. With the sudden shift towards Grass and Fairy types, Gunk (particularly NP mixed) has become an insane threat to teams, ripping through offensive mons with astounding priority, and annihilating every singly defensive mon in the A tier with its STABs. A few players have made note of how way too many teams can't handle gunk, so I think that bumping it up would appropriately reflect this sentiment.

 

[Aaron's Aron]

Carv ought to be dropping at least to B+. Considering that it struggles to beat a vast amount of A and S mons and finds itself utterly walled by common grass types in the metagame, I don't see why it should be as high as it is. Foongus, Sprits, Snubbull, Ferro, Gunk, Timburr, Fletch, and so much more can just kick its ass with little to no trouble.

Speaking of Gunk, let's raise it up to A. With the sudden shift towards Grass and Fairy types, Gunk (particularly NP mixed) has become an insane threat to teams, ripping through offensive mons with astounding priority, and annihilating every singly defensive mon in the A tier with its STABs. A few players have made note of how way too many teams can't handle gunk, so I think that bumping it up would appropriately reflect this sentiment.

Yes, finally someone who agrees that we should drop Carvanha! :P
Carvanha is fast, we all know that. Unfortunately it has trouble sweeping a lot because just poking it in the face makes it faint. It has a good Attack stat, but it lacks enough power, especially because of low power base moves, to get all the KOs it needs too. Again, this causes it to take a hit and get destroyed. Like boo said, Carvanha struggles against a lot of the most common Pokemon, especially Fighting-types. It is still a good Pokemon, and being B+ still reflects that. It just lacks the consistency to be A Rank I believe.

 

[Eren Yeagar]

Bold = What rank it should be.

Bellsprout - B- rank- --> B Rank
I think Bellsprout should go up to B rank because of how it's super efficient it does at its role. Paired up with the auto sun setter of LC, Vulpix, Bellsprout does tremendous work against your opponent with its ability Chlorophyll. The advantages It has powerful STABs in Solarbeam and Sludge Bomb that it can abuse to do remarkable damage under the sun. Bellsprout also has the capability to run Sleep Powder to put foes that have Sturdy/Focus Sash such as the common Abra to sleep and KO it without any trouble. You do have to mind the accuracy though. Anyway, one of the key things that makes Bellsprout different then all the other possible sun sweepers is its access to Weather Ball, which becomes a powerful fire-typed special attack under the sun that Bellsprout can abuse. This makes Bellsprout extremely useful to take down its weak spots such as having nothing to deal with steel types such as Pawniard, Ferroseed, and Magnemite, which are two common pokes in this metagame. The downside is when your sun turns run out. Bellsprout eventually becomes dead weight and you have to switch into Vulpix again so Bellsprout can make dents again. Overall, Bellsprout fits what B rank pokemon should be; to have positive that outshines their negatives, but do need team support to bring out their full potential.

Dwebble - B+ Rank --> B rank
I feel like Dwebble is losing its viability in this meta. The way Drilbur outclasses it by having access to rocks, Rapid Spin, and an amazing ability and Onix having Taunt, helpful dual STABs, and rocks makes Dwebble seem inefficient nowadays. The niche of having Spikes and Knock Off over the two hazard setters I just mentioned is still pretty good. But Dwebble is still Taunt bait to Onix and Mienfoo. The rising usage of Onix and Taunt Mienfoo does not help Dwebble either. Trying to make Dwebble is out of the question since Shell Smashing Dwebble still isn't good because of how Mienfoo and Timburr, two very common fighters, eat up those hits. Still, Dwebble is an exceptional hazard setter and can benefit your team, but there are better options.

 

[tazz]

Aron---> mid C not really on the same level as any of the other c+ pokemon. Outclassed as a sweeper by cranidos, outclassed as a rock setter by pretty much everything above it.
Remorade-----> c- : same thing as Aron really, not entirely sure it has a niche, just really outclassed

 

[Sken]

Dwebble - B+ Rank --> B rank
I feel like Dwebble is losing its viability in this meta. The way Drilbur outclasses it by having access to rocks, Rapid Spin, and an amazing ability and Onix having Taunt, helpful dual STABs, and rocks makes Dwebble seem inefficient nowadays. The niche of having Spikes and Knock Off over the two hazard setters I just mentioned is still pretty good. But Dwebble is still Taunt bait to Onix and Mienfoo. The rising usage of Onix and Taunt Mienfoo does not help Dwebble either. Trying to make Dwebble is out of the question since Shell Smashing Dwebble still isn't good because of how Mienfoo and Timburr, two very common fighters, eat up those hits. Still, Dwebble is an exceptional hazard setter and can benefit your team, but there are better options.

Don't forget the sturdy juice Counter. If the foe doesn't expect it you can get a free kill.