I actually think storm drain is a really good idea. It can protect many members in the sand team unless the opponent decides to go for surf. But yes as I was supposed to say before, I sand rush seems to be most fitting for the primary ability, especially from the fact that we do not want to be outsped by faster water pokemons with ice moves. Without the speed, water pokemons could potentially threaten our CAP and Tyranitar at the same time.
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Doubles CAP Project thread! Stage 8: Stat Limits
- Thread starter Stratos
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Here's my opinion on several abilities:
Sand rush is the most obvious option IMO, but I still have trouble buying it, as Sandstorm won't always be up (cmon guys!) and we still have to face the Landog problem. Now our pkmn will arguably be faster than Landog in the sand, but what for? With this typing, we have all the chances in the world not to OHKO it. And if Sand is down, well, it can still easily wreak havoc on our team (yup U-Turn...). However I like the idea of out-speeding Keldeo, but that seems a little thin to me. Here are the main threats listed by Pwemon to Sand Team:
1) Landorus-T
2) Terrakion
3) Mawile
4) Keldeo
5) Scizor
6) Aegislash
Sand Rush is, in this prospect, useful for dealing with Terrakion and Keldeo, as Mawile and Aegislash will most likely be naturally out-speeded, and Scizor, beside dealing priority Steel damage, will naturally resist our typing. So I'm not that comfortable with Sand Rush.
1) Landorus-T
2) Terrakion
3) Mawile
4) Keldeo
5) Scizor
6) Aegislash
Sand Rush is, in this prospect, useful for dealing with Terrakion and Keldeo, as Mawile and Aegislash will most likely be naturally out-speeded, and Scizor, beside dealing priority Steel damage, will naturally resist our typing. So I'm not that comfortable with Sand Rush.
I like the Intimidate idea, as it cripples a little Landog, but the downfall of dealing with Bisharp, as you mentioned Fangame10, could be potentially disastrous. However, I'm not sure he likes Low Kick and EQ, two moves that are (extremely) common in Sand Teams. But he would still deal awful damage before going down, especially with Focus Sash. Plus, Intimidate doesn't make of our pkmn something impossible to switch in for Landog. So I'm saying this isn't absurd at all, but maybe we have something better.
Sheer Force could be pretty cool, if we agree to let it have access to the elementary punches, it could deal with Landorus easily, but I'm really not fond of having a physical attacker, especially in the prospect of dealing with with lando (intimidate already weakens a big part of our team...). Whatever, this still remains a pretty weak movepool option IMO, as it's only upside is do deal bonus damage with Ice Punch (Lando) and Fire Punch (Scizor). That's not a lot, I have to say, but then we would have a good typing coverage for the 6 main threats. But even then, considering Lando could very well out-speed us and U-Turn to deal big damage, then come back and do it again, intimidating us at least twice if that so happens. That takes time to do, however, so maybe we've got something interesting here.
Btw I like Effect Spore/Flame body (that one's a little of the top) on a secondary ability, to deal with that bloody U-turn once and for all. However, I tend to like offensive abilities better that defensive ones for now. Plus, unless it plays Follow Me, it doesn't deal one bit with any threat toward the rest of the team.
Let's consider Sand Stream for a moment. Would the idea of replacing Tyranitar be a good one? IMO yes, it has so many defensive weaknesses and such a low speed that despite it's natural bulk, he's usually very easy to deal with. I mean, he doesn't even like Excadrill's EQ! I know it's a big deal to even consider switching TTar out of the team, as our previous analysis relied heavily upon the fact that he would be there, but I still think it could do the trick. Plus, considering we still keep TTar on the team, would having two setters be such a bad thing? We could rely more easily on Sand Rush and Sand Force abilities on the team, such as Excadrill (which has to sacrifice ever-useful Mold Breaker to Sand Rush) and M-Garchomp (which is good even without Sand IMO, so that's not a big problem).
Aerilate and Refrigerate, hile being totally absurd on such typing, could come in handy for obvious coverage reasons. I'm not mad to the point of thinking that these abilities should be even considered, I just mentioned them because they look good.
I'm serious about it but I don't expect it to win :) but really what the fuck else uses special Fairy STAB
Whatever we choose though, I am absolutely against Sand Rush. We're trying to build a Pokemon to help sand, not replace a key member...
anyone up for magnet pull? this could help sand get rid of steel types like bisharp and heatran as soon as they enter battle. this wouldnt be the only option, so it would let you play some mind games on your opponent whatever ability you are running.
i agree with Arcticblast that this pokemon should never have sand rush, as it just "helps" sand by letting you not use excadrill
i agree with Arcticblast that this pokemon should never have sand rush, as it just "helps" sand by letting you not use excadrill
I'd like to nominate Competitve as the ability for the CAP.
Supporting Sand essentially means supporting it's physical attackers, which are neutered by the prevalence of Intimidate in the meta. The concept specifically calls out Lando-T as being instrumental in Sand's decline and Intimidate is one of the prime reasons to use it.
Smart play to nab a competitive boost can help our CAP become instantly more threatening to Lando even if all it has to work with is HP ice and I feel that we currently lack a mon that puts this ability to use well.
Even if we go down the support route with CAP, at some point it will have to smack something just so as not to be taunt-bait and as support mons usually lack offensive investment, this could help it not be totally irrelevant.
Supporting Sand essentially means supporting it's physical attackers, which are neutered by the prevalence of Intimidate in the meta. The concept specifically calls out Lando-T as being instrumental in Sand's decline and Intimidate is one of the prime reasons to use it.
Smart play to nab a competitive boost can help our CAP become instantly more threatening to Lando even if all it has to work with is HP ice and I feel that we currently lack a mon that puts this ability to use well.
Even if we go down the support route with CAP, at some point it will have to smack something just so as not to be taunt-bait and as support mons usually lack offensive investment, this could help it not be totally irrelevant.
If we want a Pokemon that works well, we can't just throw together a bunch of independently-reliable traits and hope they magically turn into a Sand savior. We know our purpose because of the topic; we know the direction we're going to take because of the established ability. Things like Sand Rush don't work because that's not what our Pokemon was designed to do- our Pokemon is supposed to act as a check / switch in to a bunch of threats, and it's already been established by multiple arguments that at least some adequate amount of defense is required. I don't want to put things like Soundproof on this Pokemon because it's purpose isn't to counter as many things for Sand as it can- it's purpose is to counter a few relevant things, but counter them well, and without a Fairy resistant typing or a Fairy countering STAB, it won't be able to do that, even with Soundproof.
The ideal final product imo is a semi-tankish one that leans neither on attack or special attack but is not weak on either. Speed is not necessarily a necessity because most of the things we're trying to beat will outspeed us unless we invest an insane amount of stat into its Speed, which is a waste. I'd rather have something that can sponge a few neutral hits and then rely on the super effective power boost to make up for an unoutstanding offensive lineup.
Thus I suggest CONTRARY.
Against Intimidate:
The physical side of Contrary gives this Pokemon the ability fuck up Intimidate users real good, mainly Landorus-T, Mawile, Hitmontop, and Mega Manectric. Really only Mega Manectric has but a small chance to OHKO you- with HP Ice- but depending on the amount of defenses we choose to give it, it could be used to check one of the most popular Rain Mega Pokemon as well. They'll find it tough to switch in, as they'll only continue to boost up your power. This will also allow this Pokemon to be stellar as a lead, scaring off opposing Intimidate leads and preventing lead Manectric from Mega Evolving so soon.
Also, it can be used cleverly in double switches, especially if Sand is up and you know a Landorus is going to switch into your Excadrill- since you can switch first, you're pretty much safe to come in and grab that boost, wasting the opponent's Landorus switchin and also grabbing some momentum in the process.
Against most other threats:
The main reason why I like Contrary is because it gives this Pokemon a lot of tankish ability without forcing us to invest too much in its stats or restricting it to one offensive type like Defiant or Competitive. Depending on the opponent's lineup, you'll have power when you need it (ie to muscle past Intimidate) or just bulk if you need to stall things out. Stat-breaking in order to try to muscle past you (ie with Shaymin-S or something like that) won't work either, though it would be stupid of your opponent to try. But you never know.
Another great thing about Contrary is that it opens up a lot of powerful moves to this Pokemon's arsenal. Obviously we'd want two strong, reliable STABs for this Pokemon, which shouldn't be hard to find since Grass / Ground has a lot to work with. However, in terms of coverage, Contrary makes a lot of coverage moves a lot more viable as well, and can even help this Pokemon set up without having to forfeit offensive momentum. Defiant and Competitive don't offer this - if you use Leaf Storm, your Special Attack will still plummet. With Contrary, moves that have drawbacks will become benefits, not only adding to this Pokemon's power but also to its stay in ability, as it won't have to switch out as often.
The ideal final product imo is a semi-tankish one that leans neither on attack or special attack but is not weak on either. Speed is not necessarily a necessity because most of the things we're trying to beat will outspeed us unless we invest an insane amount of stat into its Speed, which is a waste. I'd rather have something that can sponge a few neutral hits and then rely on the super effective power boost to make up for an unoutstanding offensive lineup.
Thus I suggest CONTRARY.
Against Intimidate:
The physical side of Contrary gives this Pokemon the ability fuck up Intimidate users real good, mainly Landorus-T, Mawile, Hitmontop, and Mega Manectric. Really only Mega Manectric has but a small chance to OHKO you- with HP Ice- but depending on the amount of defenses we choose to give it, it could be used to check one of the most popular Rain Mega Pokemon as well. They'll find it tough to switch in, as they'll only continue to boost up your power. This will also allow this Pokemon to be stellar as a lead, scaring off opposing Intimidate leads and preventing lead Manectric from Mega Evolving so soon.
Also, it can be used cleverly in double switches, especially if Sand is up and you know a Landorus is going to switch into your Excadrill- since you can switch first, you're pretty much safe to come in and grab that boost, wasting the opponent's Landorus switchin and also grabbing some momentum in the process.
Against most other threats:
The main reason why I like Contrary is because it gives this Pokemon a lot of tankish ability without forcing us to invest too much in its stats or restricting it to one offensive type like Defiant or Competitive. Depending on the opponent's lineup, you'll have power when you need it (ie to muscle past Intimidate) or just bulk if you need to stall things out. Stat-breaking in order to try to muscle past you (ie with Shaymin-S or something like that) won't work either, though it would be stupid of your opponent to try. But you never know.
Another great thing about Contrary is that it opens up a lot of powerful moves to this Pokemon's arsenal. Obviously we'd want two strong, reliable STABs for this Pokemon, which shouldn't be hard to find since Grass / Ground has a lot to work with. However, in terms of coverage, Contrary makes a lot of coverage moves a lot more viable as well, and can even help this Pokemon set up without having to forfeit offensive momentum. Defiant and Competitive don't offer this - if you use Leaf Storm, your Special Attack will still plummet. With Contrary, moves that have drawbacks will become benefits, not only adding to this Pokemon's power but also to its stay in ability, as it won't have to switch out as often.
A very good IMO. Leaf Storm would become an insane STAB move, and as I said before, having something that isn't fucked up by intimidate on the team seems really important to me. It helps along the Lando problem, also. This seems to me like it's a very versatile tool with a lot of applications. I'd rather not talk too much about the stats, but we could then easily rely on a mixed attacker too. Great idea IMO.
Play rough from Azumarill and M-Mawile come to mind.
Contrary and Competitive do seem like good abilities. Intimidate really does put a damper on both Exca and TTar, so being able to hard counter those really opens up our options. I would even say that giving this mon access to ice beam and other similar moves wouldn't be necessary.
Though I do have to ask, even though I'm getting ahead of myself because it may influence my vote for ability. We can't make new moves, but can we give him moves that are signature moves of one poke? For example Land's wrath/thousand arrows/thousand waves.
We vote on the movepool in a stage further along the process.
I think my two favorite abilities proposed are Soundproof and Competitive. The former is a great option against Sylveon and Mega Gardevoir, the two Pokemon I feel our CAP doesn't really handle well. The latter punishes Intimidate a LOT. Excadrill + CAP could be a really strong combination with Competitive, as it would mean that if Landorus-T wants to switch in to stop Excadrill, it'd then be faced with a mon at +2 SpA.
To comment on other abilities, Contrary with Leaf Storm seems a little.... TOO good if it were to be paired with Leaf Storm. If it were not, then I think it'd only really be effective if we made our CAP a physical or mixed attacker, which I don't really like considering both Excadrill and Tyranitar are primarily physically offensive.
To comment on other abilities, Contrary with Leaf Storm seems a little.... TOO good if it were to be paired with Leaf Storm. If it were not, then I think it'd only really be effective if we made our CAP a physical or mixed attacker, which I don't really like considering both Excadrill and Tyranitar are primarily physically offensive.
GiraGoomy
when you see a good meme
Although I think Sand Rush is probably the best option, I'm going to throw out some of my own wacky abilities of choice for the fun of it :]
What I think is really good about Arena Trap is that it puts pressure on your opponents to not get caught with two Pokemon weak to whatever is in. Arena Trap can also push momentum your way since you know that they can't switch (other than Levitating mons, Flying Types, etc). So far only three Pokemon (all grounds types) have this ability, with only one being fully evolved (Dugtrio). I think it would be very interesting to see this Pokemon with Arena Trap just because limiting your opponents to not switch is pretty good in the first place.
Adaptability is a really good ability in my opinion and if we were to create this Pokemon as Electrolyte said "a semi-tankish one that leans neither on attack or special attack but is not weak on either" than I suggest Adaptability as an option since it will be able to give a huge amount of extra power to this CAP's STAB Attacks allowing more investment into the defences. A lot of the current Pokemon with Adaptability are somewhat frail and I think going ahead and making a semi-tankish mon with Adaptability would be an interesting option.
From what I've seen in my time of Doubles Competitive Battling, Berries play a huge factor in a lot of matches may it be Sitrus Berry, Type Resist Berry, etc. I think Unnerve can play a huge part in what this Pokemon is able to do on the field. This may be a weird option however things like Yache Berry, Rindo Berry, etc can literally appear out of nowhere and in knowing that opposing Berries won't come into play when this CAP is on the field can give you a whole lot of confidence instead of thinking "What if that Politoed is holding a Rindo Berry survives my attack and then hits back with an Ice Beam!"
A bit of defensive options here. Ground types such as Gastrodon and Mamoswine are nice holders of Storm Drain and Thick Fat so why not incorporate them here? The CAP has a 4x Weakness to Ice changing to only a x2 weakness (something survivable) and could just limit Fire Types in general with Thick Fat. Storm Drain takes pressure off Tyranitar getting hit by Water Type moves and also helps Excadrill if you were to run both. Although these abilities are necessarily not needed since partnered Pokemon can take care of threats, I thought it'd just be nice to include a more defensive ability.
I think that an option other than Contrary is Competitive. It could taking those intimidates and getting a nice +2 in special attack. Reasoning to use: Screw Lando-T.
Also I love the idea of Contrary. Intimidate won't hurt, you can get some nice +2's from Leaf Storm (if that's what we decide to do) and it just puts pressure on the opponent to not bring Pokemon with Intimidate just like Defiant and Competitive but also has those other elements (like Leaf Storm). Props to Electrolyte for thinking of that because it's a really good idea imo.
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Why? If we make it a special attacker, then Excadrill will have a counter part, not a replacement. Excadrill is a very capable sweeper if it's checks are weakened and it's counters are gone and sand it up. We could make the CAP a fast wall-breaker, capable of killing stuff like Landoge and Terrekion that would otherwise stop any chance Excadrill has at pulling off a sweep. With sand rush, it could be a compliment, not a replacement.
- people use ludicolo OR kingdra on a rain team, not both
- unless our CAP is ridiculously fast, the only way the CAP is going to get rid of terrakion is if sand is up, by which point excadrill could do that itself
- our CAP's typing means that its STABs won't be any good for dealing with Lando-T anyway; right from the typing stage it was designed for a more balanced role, not a straight-up hyperoffensive one.
that said I really like the idea of contrary, ilu 5ever Electrolyte
People opposing Sand Rush because it's somehow contrary to the concept should probably re-read the consensus at the end of Concept Assessment.
i use both regularly
ludi beats rain checks
kingdra is my win condition
keep poli alive
Stratos
Banned deucer.
can we NOT with the whole "the obviously right answer is so obviously right it must be wrong" bullshit? Sand Rush is so obviously right because outspeeding everything is a god damn amazing ability and works great for a CAP that's supposed to be—wow!—in sand. The only logical reason I can think of to oppose Sand Rush is that we want to be able to outspeed things outside of sand if, for example, Zard switches in.
To arcticblast's point that we are replacing an integral member of sand: imagine you are a GameFreak dev at the start of Gen V. "What if we gave Venusaur Chlorophyll, to make sun better?" "What! you can't just replace victreebel, he's an integral member of sun teams!"
Why are people suggesting Competitive or Contrary because we can't handle Landorus-T with our STABs? You don't need SE STAB to handle Landorus-T. It's 4x weak to Ice. Contrary gives us 'the option' of Contrary Leaf Storms but I sure don't trust that to be balanced unless we cripple ourselves elsewhere (like in being able to switch into and beat Terrakion).
To arcticblast's point that we are replacing an integral member of sand: imagine you are a GameFreak dev at the start of Gen V. "What if we gave Venusaur Chlorophyll, to make sun better?" "What! you can't just replace victreebel, he's an integral member of sun teams!"
Why are people suggesting Competitive or Contrary because we can't handle Landorus-T with our STABs? You don't need SE STAB to handle Landorus-T. It's 4x weak to Ice. Contrary gives us 'the option' of Contrary Leaf Storms but I sure don't trust that to be balanced unless we cripple ourselves elsewhere (like in being able to switch into and beat Terrakion).
Yea I have to agree with Pwnenom, like first most of the suggestions will make the pokemon a completely independent pokemon with the traits and ability other things give. The concept of the cap is to make it a sand pokemon so I personally think the best choice is sand rush.
Stratos
Banned deucer.
It's now time to vote again! The votes in CAP all follow the same pattern: First we have a Preferential Block Voting segment which narrows down the slate of options to the top 3. We then hold an IRV runoff between the top 3 options to determine the ultimate winner. Each of these rounds lasts 24 hours. So your first slate for voting consideration, compiled between myself and srk1214, is as follows (in order of submission):
Sand Rush
Competitive
Contrary
Arena Trap
This will be a Preferential Block Vote (PBV) (a form of Instant Runoff Voting which re-runs the counting, each time removing the previously top-ranked candidate in order to determine the 2nd most preferred, 3rd most preferred, etc.), the details of which are outlined here and here. This is a ranked vote: order does matter! You can upvote your favourites and downvote your least favourites. You may choose to rank as many or as few options as you like, but we encourage you to rank as many options as possible to ensure your preferences are taken into account.
Bold your votes and nothing else! A typical vote might look like the following:
This voting round will last 24 Hours.
Sand Rush
Competitive
Contrary
Arena Trap
This will be a Preferential Block Vote (PBV) (a form of Instant Runoff Voting which re-runs the counting, each time removing the previously top-ranked candidate in order to determine the 2nd most preferred, 3rd most preferred, etc.), the details of which are outlined here and here. This is a ranked vote: order does matter! You can upvote your favourites and downvote your least favourites. You may choose to rank as many or as few options as you like, but we encourage you to rank as many options as possible to ensure your preferences are taken into account.
Bold your votes and nothing else! A typical vote might look like the following:
Please post only your votes in this thread. You are allowed to say whatever you like in relation to your vote at the bottom of your post, but please do not look to begin a discussion. Keep those comments to the peanut gallery or #doubles on IRC.
This voting round will last 24 Hours.
Competitive
Sand Rush
Sand Rush
Sand Rush
Arena Trap
Competitive
Contrary
Arena Trap
Competitive
Contrary
Sand rush
Competitive
Contrary
Competitive
Contrary
Arena Trap
Sand Rush
Contrary
Competitive
Sand Rush
Contrary
Competitive
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