Other ORAS Metagame Discussion

[Vert]

new profile pic; new identity

B- Rank my ass please - I think it is time that people should know how good Weavile is. In XY, people didn't even bother using it, but with Mega Salamence in the tier, it is starting to be a staple along with Mamoswine on HO teams, and I have to say: even when Mega Salamence leaves OU, Weavile will still be a force to be reckoned with. Obviously the upper ladder is complete cancer with 2 out of 3 teams with Mega Salamence for their mega of choice, but even when I face that Altaria to ZardX to Sceptile to Metagross teams, Weavile is ridiculous at what it does. Weavile sits at a tier above Greninja which is honestly just amazing for a non-MEvo 'mon (I'll get in to this later here) and on top of that, you pack a priority Ice Shard that revenge kills an amazing list of 'mons - Mega Pinsir / brkhypedragon, Thundurus-I without being paralyzed, Diggersby, Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Sceptile, +2 Landorus-I, Breloom, and Choice Scarf users like Garchomp, Latios, Landorus-T, and screws with Talonflame here and there.

But why is Weavile more amazing outside of Ice Shard? It outpaces freakin' Greninja which is the best Pokemon in OU, and not only that, the aforementioned switch in is forced to take massive damage or lose its item. Weavile has an amazing match up against stall teams. Just take a look at a common list of stall 'mons and tell me which of the following that don't straight up die like taking Knock Off or Icicle Crash. Skarmory is now vulnerable to Magnezone, Clefable gets 2HKOed with prior damage, Quagsire hates Knock Off, and Low Kick / Ice / Dark puts stall teams to its knees in the long run. Offensive teams already have trouble with Greninja and using Weavile is like losing coverage, while gaining utility and power which was the main thing that people ignored -__- why Weavile never rose past B- rank. Common switch ins for Weavile on offensive teams are close to zero, and unlike Greninja, Knock Off remains ridiculously powerful with few offensive 'mons being able to tank it. even things like Bisharp and Tyranitar lose to Low Kick. Mega Heracross takes massive damage from Icicle Crash, and Azumarill losing an Assault Vest or Choice Band is never the same. Mega Scizor is like the #1 + best switch in which can be trapped and eliminated by Magnezone. Mega Venusaur despises Icicle Crash, ugh. I think I am just listing examples and restating myself while doing this. This is why Weavile remains so threatening.

Weavile is powerful threat that needs to be taken account of right now because the metagame was more focused on other crap in xy, but Weavile completely shits on a lot of archetypes and is very solid - I feel like it will be B+ rank when we get to discuss it, but this is not the viability ranking thread. I just wanted to share how good Weavile is and less expectations were coming from at first when I chucked it in the teambuilder.

 

[Kurona]

new profile pic; new identity

B- Rank my ass please - I think it is time that people should know how good Weavile is. In XY, people didn't even bother using it, but with Mega Salamence in the tier, it is starting to be a staple along with Mamoswine on HO teams, and I have to say: even when Mega Salamence leaves OU, Weavile will still be a force to be reckoned with. Obviously the upper ladder is complete cancer with 2 out of 3 teams with Mega Salamence for their mega of choice, but even when I face that Altaria to ZardX to Sceptile to Metagross teams, Weavile is ridiculous at what it does. Weavile sits at a tier above Greninja which is honestly just amazing for a non-MEvo 'mon (I'll get in to this later here) and on top of that, you pack a priority Ice Shard that revenge kills an amazing list of 'mons - Mega Pinsir / brkhypedragon, Thundurus-I without being paralyzed, Diggersby, Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Sceptile, +2 Landorus-I, Breloom, and Choice Scarf users like Garchomp, Latios, Landorus-T, and screws with Talonflame here and there.

But why is Weavile more amazing outside of Ice Shard? It outpaces freakin' Greninja which is the best Pokemon in OU, and not only that, the aforementioned switch in is forced to take massive damage or lose its item. Weavile has an amazing match up against stall teams. Just take a look at a common list of stall 'mons and tell me which of the following that don't straight up die like taking Knock Off or Icicle Crash. Skarmory is now vulnerable to Magnezone, Clefable gets 2HKOed with prior damage, Quagsire hates Knock Off, and Low Kick / Ice / Dark puts stall teams to its knees in the long run. Offensive teams already have trouble with Greninja and using Weavile is like losing coverage, while gaining utility and power which was the main thing that people ignored -__- why Weavile never rose past B- rank. Common switch ins for Weavile on offensive teams are close to zero, and unlike Greninja, Knock Off remains ridiculously powerful with few offensive 'mons being able to tank it. even things like Bisharp and Tyranitar lose to Low Kick. Mega Heracross takes massive damage from Icicle Crash, and Azumarill losing an Assault Vest or Choice Band is never the same. Mega Scizor is like the #1 + best switch in which can be trapped and eliminated by Magnezone. Mega Venusaur despises Icicle Crash, ugh. I think I am just listing examples and restating myself while doing this. This is why Weavile remains so threatening.

Weavile is powerful threat that needs to be taken account of right now because the metagame was more focused on other crap in xy, but Weavile completely shits on a lot of archetypes and is very solid - I feel like it will be B+ rank when we get to discuss it, but this is not the viability ranking thread. I just wanted to share how good Weavile is and less expectations were coming from at first when I chucked it in the teambuilder.

Let's not use Mega Salamence as an example when it's going to get banhammered in 6 days

 

[naturalstupidity]

Let's not use Mega Salamence as an example when it's going to get banhammered in 6 days

He also referenced all of the other things that make Weavile great, checking Mega Mence is just the icing on the cake.

Anyway, Weavile is incredible. It's blazing fast with a great priority move, it takes advantage of the bulky Psychics that are running around, it has Low Kick for the ever-present Ferrothorn, and it's a generally great anti-meta Pokemon for hyper offense right now. Azumarill is rarer, and the state of the metagame generally favors Weavile. Not much else to say that Vertex didn't already say.

 

[OLD GREGG (im back baby)]

I know everyone was all aboard the hype train for M-Crobro, but with zero immunities, four(I think) resists, and five weaknesses it's typing isn't especially great when it comes to being an unbreakable wall.

Now Crodino on the other hand who has two extremely good immunities, two decent resists, and only two weaknesses on top of having more balanced bulk is very hard to topple after being set-up.

Crodino is a more reliable TR setter than Crobro IMO.

 

[Celticpride]

I know everyone was all aboard the hype train for M-Crobro, but with zero immunities, four(I think) resists, and five weaknesses it's typing isn't especially great when it comes to being an unbreakable wall.

Now Crodino on the other hand who has two extremely good immunities, two decent resists, and only two weaknesses on top of having more balanced bulk is very hard to topple after being set-up.

Crodino is a more reliable TR setter than Crobro IMO.

Neither Crobro or Crodino should be setting TR... They usually run Rest, Sleep Talk, Calm Mind and an attack. There's no room for TR. Also, Mega Bro is generally harder to break because it can't get critted. MegaBro also has a higher defense (which is relevant, because it's not being boosted) and a more spammable attack in Scald.

 

[Kurona]

Neither Crobro or Crodino should be setting TR... They usually run Rest, Sleep Talk, Calm Mind and an attack. There's no room for TR. Also, Mega Bro is generally harder to break because it can't get critted. MegaBro also has a higher defense (which is relevant, because it's not being boosted) and a more spammable attack in Scald.

Not to mention Audino can't attack. Like, at all.

 

[Raymond Quaza]

I'm not sure how useful Mega Glalie is going to be overall. It is a potential threat due to the power of Refrigerate Explosion, but I'm not sure how viable it will be, or if it will be fast enough. I'm still trying to think of a set for it, one that could be something like Ice Shard, Return, EQ, and Explosion.
I also did not expect Mega Diancie to be so much better than the original as an offensive pokemon. (Although Mega Diancie is in that base 110 speed range, which seems like a lot of pokemon now)

 

[WhiteQueen]

I played my first 25 games on the ORAS ladder and here's what I think about it so far.

ORAS is extremely fun, even more so than XY. Those new mega-mons are bosses, especially Mega-Salamence, Mega-Slowbro, and Mega-Sableye.

Greninja is a dumbass that is virtually on everyone's team, except mine, and almost nothing can wall it. It needs to go.

 

[Davon]

With Greninja being such a threat this generation with gunk shot I feel like it's opened the window for bulky waters to strive. For example, last gen nobody ran Tentacruel because of extrasensory. A really underrated mon at the moment is Suicune because it takes on 90% of Greninjas because they don't have room for grass knot. Suicune also wins vs mega Crobro by setting up alongside it and pp stalling with pressure.

As far as play styles go, I think every play style has a decent shot in ORAS. I've been trying balance to great success. I've came across a mega sableye stall team which was p cool.

P much every mega salamence is sub roost, which is cool, but it's time for some innovation. Something I've been thinking about is using stone edge for Zapdos so that a Scizor can sweep late-game. If you haven't noticed Scizor and Mega Salamence have similar checks so they're pretty cool together for wearing eachother's checks down, and Scizor switches into ice shard from Mamoswine and Weavile and threatens them back with bullet punch.

Just some thoughts I've had while playing the ladder.

 

[zbr]

With Greninja being such a threat this generation with gunk shot I feel like it's opened the window for bulky waters to strive. For example, last gen nobody ran Tentacruel because of extrasensory. A really underrated mon at the moment is Suicune because it takes on 90% of Greninjas because they don't have room for grass knot. Suicune also wins vs mega Crobro by setting up alongside it and pp stalling with pressure.

As far as play styles go, I think every play style has a decent shot in ORAS. I've been trying balance to great success. I've came across a mega sableye stall team which was p cool.

P much every mega salamence is sub roost, which is cool, but it's time for some innovation. Something I've been thinking about is using stone edge for Zapdos so that a Scizor can sweep late-game. If you haven't noticed Scizor and Mega Salamence have similar checks so they're pretty cool together for wearing eachother's checks down, and Scizor switches into ice shard from Mamoswine and Weavile and threatens them back with bullet punch.

Just some thoughts I've had while playing the ladder.

The thing about Greninja isn't that it allows for bulky waters to strive. But rather, Greninja itself is so centralising and flexible to make, it makes it such that you think you're safe. I opted for a gunk shotless build because everyone and their moms think greninja runs Gunk Shot to stop fairies, and people who sent Ferro in, Suicune in, and bam gone (Exaggerated but you catch my drift). Once the meta catches on, and players begin to make Greninja as the last member to have it's moveslot filled so as to cover relevant threats that the team lacks viable counter for, that is when you'll see all the mons that were previously in this new baby ORAS OU meta fading away. Also, Cruel is a safe way to take on most megas, not because Greninja doesn't run Esens.

 

[Davon]

The thing about Greninja isn't that it allows for bulky waters to strive. But rather, Greninja itself is so centralising and flexible to make, it makes it such that you think you're safe. I opted for a gunk shotless build because everyone and their moms think greninja runs Gunk Shot to stop fairies, and people who sent Ferro in, Suicune in, and bam gone (Exaggerated but you catch my drift). Once the meta catches on, and players begin to make Greninja as the last member to have it's moveslot filled so as to cover relevant threats that the team lacks viable counter for, that is when you'll see all the mons that were previously in this new baby ORAS OU meta fading away. Also, Cruel is a safe way to take on most megas, not because Greninja doesn't run Esens.

Yeah I agree. It's crazy how Greninja controls the meta. Once people start running gunk shot-less Greninja the meta is gonna be all fucked up.

 

[Clone]

Greninja is a dumbass that is virtually on everyone's team, except mine, and almost nothing can wall it. It needs to go.

Idk. Tentacruel, Porygon 2, Mega Sableye, and Cresselia don't seem to mind him much, but that May just be me.

Seriously though, I know Greninja got a hell of a lot better with Gunk Shot being added, but I feel he's a bit overhyped. "Theoretically speaking" he's uncounterable, but in reality I've found it pretty easy to play around him so long as you have at least one solid switch in to 3/4 of his coverage. Add on the fact that many of the new megas have created a massive speed creep, I've found that checking him is easier than ever thanks to the prevalence of Scarfers and mons with higher speed than him, as well as all the priority going around.

Is he suspect worthy? Yeah, sure. Is he banworthy? I'm not entirely convinced he is.

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

Idk. Tentacruel, Porygon 2, Mega Sableye, and Cresselia don't seem to mind him much, but that May just be me.

Seriously though, I know Greninja got a hell of a lot better with Gunk Shot being added, but I feel he's a bit overhyped. "Theoretically speaking" he's uncounterable, but in reality I've found it pretty easy to play around him so long as you have at least one solid switch in to 3/4 of his coverage. Add on the fact that many of the new megas have created a massive speed creep, I've found that checking him is easier than ever thanks to the prevalence of Scarfers and mons with higher speed than him, as well as all the priority going around.

Is he suspect worthy? Yeah, sure. Is he banworthy? I'm not entirely convinced he is.

Tenta is sort of easy to wear down. P2 is good (along with chansey) Sabeleye gets destroyed by Hydro pump and I believe Ice beam might also be 2hko. Dark pulse wrecks Cresselia. Also notice how none of them are offensive mons. Aka best offense can really do is try to revenge it.

 

[Celticpride]

The thing about Greninja isn't that it allows for bulky waters to strive. But rather, Greninja itself is so centralising and flexible to make, it makes it such that you think you're safe. I opted for a gunk shotless build because everyone and their moms think greninja runs Gunk Shot to stop fairies, and people who sent Ferro in, Suicune in, and bam gone (Exaggerated but you catch my drift). Once the meta catches on, and players begin to make Greninja as the last member to have it's moveslot filled so as to cover relevant threats that the team lacks viable counter for, that is when you'll see all the mons that were previously in this new baby ORAS OU meta fading away. Also, Cruel is a safe way to take on most megas, not because Greninja doesn't run Esens.

You know, that's something I've noticed as well. Gunk Ninja is great and all, but the threat of Gunk Shot Ninja forces all kinds of awkward switches. I actually stumbled upon this by accidentally using one of my XY teams, just something like HP Fire / Dark Pulse / Ice Beam / Hydro Pump and it caused all kinds of havoc because people think they've scouted it enough to know it's not carrying x coverage move, but the you pull out a coverage move and then it's an easy path to victory from there. Dark Pulse / Ice Beam / HP Fire / Extrasensory screws most of the solid answers out there (Cress, Tenta, Ferro) and the threat of Gunk Shot scares off Fairies until it's too late.

Also, -Clone- I don't think the speed creep doesn't impact Gren as much as you think. At worse, it's one new threat that Gren has to deal with. That's assuming your opponent is running Mega Lopunny, Sceptile, or Beedrill, (or Aero, Manectric, or Alakazam). I actually think that is the most overhyped part of ORAS, sure there are some faster threats out there, but at most you are dealing with one of those on a team that you weren't before. The 110 speed tier is more crowded, but at most you are using one at a time.

 

[Clone]

Tenta is sort of easy to wear down. P2 is good (along with chansey) Sabeleye gets destroyed by Hydro pump and I believe Ice beam might also be 2hko. Dark pulse wrecks Cresselia. Also notice how none of them are offensive mons. Aka best offense can really do is try to revenge it.

Tenta is 4HKoed at best by anything other than Extrasensory, meaning that he has ample switch in opportunities and can remove hazards / do whatever since greninja cant really touch him at all. yeah, hes worn down, but he has excellent synergy with fairies which usually provide Wish support that allow him to stay healthy throughout the match if played correctly.

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Sableye: 91-109 (29.9 - 35.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Sableye comes in and Megas while using CM and tanking anything he wants. he cant switch in un megad, but he wins if he already has Megad or gets in thru a double switch / free turn or w/e if he hasnt. As for Cress, she walls all non Dark Pulse variants, and even then she cant tank one or two (depending on her EVs) and hit back with a T Wave to cripple him. it situational, but it works.

Ill answer your next part in my reply to Celticpride
Its not so much the fact that every team has these mons, but moreso the fact that teams prepare for these mons. simply put, most teams are gonna get rekt if they dont have anything to wall them, which applies to most offensive teams out there. Instead, they use scarfers like Lando T, Heatran, Latios, etc to teak them on 1v1. The speed creep may be overhyped in that its not as bad for ninja as youd think it be, rather the fact that offense is preparing for these new faster threats, even ones that only reach the crowded base 110 speed tier, through the use of scarfers, which indirectly affects Greninja.

Im not saying Greninja is bad, nor am I saying hes super maneagable, rather, Im saying that he can be handled through the use of smart teambuilding. No longer can you just say "lol lemme switch in chansey and wall him cuz hes a special attacker lolololol," and instead building Offensive teams that have something to beat him 1v1, or balance teams that can simply outlast him, which is something that ive found not very hard to do. I agree that hes suspect worthy, but Im not entirely convinced hes banworthy. We need more time to see how the meta develops once the cancer leaves before we can come to a definite conclusion on whether or not hes OP.

 

[Karxrida]

Nobody is denying there are ways to deal with Greninja efficiently, the issue it that it is a major restriction for offensive teams and said answers are usually defensive/very niche. Greninja is also very easy to support while being extremely customizable with its moveset, which requires scouting to deal with effectively since it can decide to pull a Grass Knot or Extrasensory out of its ass when you think you're safe.

 

[yoloburn]

Cresselia can't switch in if it's at 90% of health. Tentacruel dies to Extrasensory, which Greninja will start using if it ever got common. Sableye cannot switch in at all, mega evolved or not.

Literally the only mon mentioned that can switch in is Porygon2, something that would easily lose its switch-in opportunities if it gets hit by the knock off spam that is OU.

You cannot say you can play around Greninja with smart teambuilding and then offer not one safe switch-in. A well played Greninja should pretty much kill something every time it comes in.

 

[Clone]

Cresselia can't switch in if it's at 90% of health. Tentacruel dies to Extrasensory, which Greninja will start using if it ever got common. Sableye cannot switch in at all, mega evolved or not.

Literally the only mon mentioned that can switch in is Porygon2, something that would easily lose its switch-in opportunities if it gets hit by the knock off spam that is OU.

You cannot say you can play around Greninja with smart teambuilding and then offer not one safe switch-in. A well played Greninja should pretty much kill something every time it comes in.

You completely and utterly ignored half my post .-.

I said Cress walls all non Dark Pulse sets, which is the first thing you ignored. Then I explicitly stated that she could tank one Dark Pulse. I didnt say that she could counter him if he had it; I said she can tank one and Cripple him before going down. Additionally, Tentacruel does counter Greninja. Extrasensory has been dropped in favor od Dark Pulse as of late. Why? Because of the rise in defensive psychic types such as Mew and Slowbro (which btw are p good answers to non DP variants fyi). Greninja doesnt have to moveslot to run Extrasensory, because if he did, he would. Instead, he uses other, more important coverage moves like Ice Beam, Dark Pulse, and Gunk Shot.
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Sableye: 136-161 (44.7 - 52.9%) -- 28.5% chance to 2HKO

rip your Sableye argument. Winning only 28% of the time with a move with 80% accuracy is in no way, shape, or form in Greninjas favor, especially since Sableye has this move called recover.

I think Ill end this argument here, because its clear that you did not read either of my posts in their entirety, and instead decided to rebuke claims I never made in the first place. And no, a well played Greninja wont get a kill every time he comes in if the opposing player plays just as smart and has a decent team match up against the Greninja user.

 

[yoloburn]

You completely and utterly ignored half my post .-.

I said Cress walls all non Dark Pulse sets, which is the first thing you ignored. Then I explicitly stated that she could tank one Dark Pulse. I didnt say that she could counter him if he had it; I said she can tank one and Cripple him before going down. Additionally, Tentacruel does counter Greninja. Extrasensory has been dropped in favor od Dark Pulse as of late. Why? Because of the rise in defensive psychic types such as Mew and Slowbro (which btw are p good answers to non DP variants fyi). Greninja doesnt have to moveslot to run Extrasensory, because if he did, he would. Instead, he uses other, more important coverage moves like Ice Beam, Dark Pulse, and Gunk Shot.
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Sableye: 136-161 (44.7 - 52.9%) -- 28.5% chance to 2HKO

rip your Sableye argument. Winning only 28% of the time with a move with 80% accuracy is in no way, shape, or form in Greninjas favor, especially since Sableye has this move called recover.

I think Ill end this argument here, because its clear that you did not read either of my posts in their entirety, and instead decided to rebuke claims I never made in the first place. And no, a well played Greninja wont get a kill every time he comes in if the opposing player plays just as smart and has a decent team match up against the Greninja user.

Nearly all Greninjas in ORAS carry Dark Pulse. Yes, Cress would wall non DP sets but the big majority of the time it will not. So it's not exactly reliable, is it? Greninja did run Extrasensory before, and if poison types grow in popularity then it will run it again. This is the problem with Greninja, no matter what move it replaces it will make up for it with another and end up with perfect coverage. It can afford to run any move it wants. So you can say you can counter one specific set, but you still can't consistently counter Greninja because if it has Extrasensory then your entire team gets swept

Also, I'm not sure how you got that calc. I ran it myself, giving Sableye 115 special defense and got this

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Sableye: 175-208 (57.5 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Sableye cannot switch in

 

[Celticpride]

Ill answer your next part in my reply to Celticpride
Its not so much the fact that every team has these mons, but moreso the fact that teams prepare for these mons. simply put, most teams are gonna get rekt if they dont have anything to wall them, which applies to most offensive teams out there. Instead, they use scarfers like Lando T, Heatran, Latios, etc to teak them on 1v1. The speed creep may be overhyped in that its not as bad for ninja as youd think it be, rather the fact that offense is preparing for these new faster threats, even ones that only reach the crowded base 110 speed tier, through the use of scarfers, which indirectly affects Greninja.

Honestly I haven't been doing much second level thinking about that, and the increase in Scarfers is a really good point. Most of the arguments I have seen about the speed creep is "well now there's more base 110 speed pokemon, and there's a lot more things over base 120. Base 110 is the new base 100." That kind of statement really isn't true regarding speed creep because you can only use one faster Mega at a time. Increase in Scarfers and things like Weavile do make the meta less favorable to Gren.

A well played Greninja should pretty much kill something every time it comes in.

In order for Greninja to get a KO any time it comes in, you have to get lucky with prediction. You can over predict or under predict with Gren and end up in bad situations. Going for the most obvious coverage move can often end up screwing you just as much as nailing the prediction helps you. "Well played" is a relative term, if I am of equal skill level to my opponent it's less likely the Greninja user will nail it's predictions every time. Double switching combined with priority isn't a great answer, but it's a more than workable one none the less. A well played Greninja terrorizes the ladder, but so does a well played SD Talon. Also, there's really no need to run Hydro Pump anymore, Gunk Shot and Low Kick pretty much cover everything Hydro covers, but with better overall coverage and more power. Low Kick nails TTar and Heatran, Gunk Shot hits Fairies. That's pretty much everything Hydro was used to hit before.

 

[Karxrida]

Scarfers are only good for revenge killing Greninja, and even then it'll be extremely obvious that you're using a Scarfer and have to deal with prediction on your side to. Do you predict are switch or try to kill Greninja? CAN you kill Greninja depending on its type if you mispredict? Can you afford to mispredict and try to revenge later?

 

[alexwolf]

Alomomola is one of Greninja's best counters, and can even beat variants with a Grass move as long as it doesn't switch into the Grass move.

 

[Karxrida]

Alomomola is one of Greninja's best counters, and can even beat variants with a Grass move as long as it doesn't switch into the Grass move.

So you mean it's a check?

 

[alexwolf]

So you mean it's a check?

If you take into account variants with Grass moves, yes it's only a check, but those are rare so usually Alomomola is a counter to Greninja.

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

Still doesn't change the fact offensive teams don't have a reliable answer to greninja besides sacking something and revenging it.