Mega-Salamence: considering a quick ban (Don't ask for the thread to be closed!)

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Mega Salamence is the reason I've stopped playing ORAS. By the time I realized that I needed him on every team and every good team I play against will have one, it stopped being fun. It's past overcentralizing the meta, it IS the meta. Quickban it now.
 

MattL

I have discovered a truly remarkable CT which this box is t-
is a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
The only reason why I would want a suspect test for Salamencite is to see whether or not we can get another unanimous ban vote. If anything were to get a vote spread of Ban: 70, Do Not Ban: 0, Abstain: 0, it's gonna be Mega Salamence since anything stronger than it probably wouldn't even get a test.

But realistically, if we don't want to try to make Smogon history for the most unbalanced vote pool, it's better to quickban in order to improve the meta as soon as possible. We've had a long month plus of Mega Salamence OU - I mean, ORAS OU, to see that this shouldn't be here.
 
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leremyju

Banned deucer.
Nobody uses Scarf Salamence because it's awful in OU. If you're using a Scarfer, go with something like Greninja or Latios. You're really disregarding everything that makes Mega Salamence as absurdly powerful as it is, namely its set-up bulk, immense power, great Speed, awesome movepool and massive versatility.
Also, just what do you mean with 'the X on the top left'? I don't get it.
The OP was talking about VGC.

I meant not overpowered in VGC as OU
 
Here's what happens in your scenario:
Step 1: Anything more broken than Mega Salamence that was checking Mega Mence gets banned first for being broken (parallel: we banned Mega Lucario first and let Mega Mawile run free)
Step 2: Now Mega Salamence is the most broken mon in the tier because we banned his broken checks. (Parallel: we banned Mega Mawile after banning all of the more broken crap in the tier)
We'll just end up back where we started where now we have to consider banning Mega Mence
That's not how it works at all. Pokemon isn't set up linerally like XXXXX > YYYYYY > salamence > ZZZZZ >
It's all about whether the pokemon that's currently in can prevent the opponent's switch from boosting then sweeping. In that regard, things like mawile and lucario can prevent it from boosting but would die in the process (having done their job). But if mence had actually gotten in first, he could already be at +1 and kill either of them. You could consider them equals because each one can basically ohko the other but none is the best, they're all completely different.

I want to throw in the fact that stall is having absolutely no problems with mence and it is only a serious threat vs offensive teams. Stall is undeniably better than ever because mawile is banned, things like heracross is being completely suppressed, weak things like scarf landorus are everywhere, and between slowbro/sabeleye and options porygon/rhyperior/rotom/etc salamence is not really anyone's problem at all. He's only good against flimsy things like Latios and Mamoswine (who everyone seems to be stubbornly using instead of actually running a goddamn mence counter).


With that out of the way, I seriously don't think he needs to be banned UNLESS nothing will ever be coming down from ubers. As far as I'm concerned things like aegislash and genesect would be more than welcome and serve a great purpose not only against mence but other things that are currently pretty troublesom. The tier can easily handle them at this point. Salamence would also have to share his throne if other extremely strong things like kangaskhan actually came down.

It's a very turbulent period! I don't think anyone can confidently say they have ANY idea what singles would look like if mence had competition with other megas.
 
Because, it's obvious that this thread is for PR purposes. There needs to be some sort of defense against the inevitable public backlash that always occurs after quickbanning without a chance for public opinion. That being said, a suspect test is a bad idea for two reasons. 1) We have already played on the ladder for weeks and it has been enough to give a unanimous opinion among every player that cares about this tier, and 2) I cannot come up with any form of logical debate to justify this monster staying in OU; it's disgusting for someone to even try.
 

Cookie Butter

formerly the someone
How is MegaSharpedo as a MegaSalamence counter? I'd assume Speed Boost Sub/Protect vs Dragon Dance/Sub/Roost requires a certain level of prediction, but MSharpedo's Ice Fang hits way harder than Mamoswine's Ice Shard, and outspeeds at +1.
 
Salamence is 100% broken. There's no way to sugar coat that, it just is. The fact that is sets up on roughly 80/90% of the meta is disgusting. I'm going to be focusing on (arguably) the best set right now, the sub, DD, roost, return set for the majority of my argument. Let's look at what it sets up on and beats 1v1, to name a few:

-Landorus-T (intimidate means literally nothing to a mence)
-Ferrothorn
-Gyarados
-Chansey
-Conkeldurr (ice punch damage after intimidate is essentially roosted off by mence)
-Heatran
-Magnezone
-Mew
-No SpA rotom-w
-It can set up on most physical attackers in the tier after intimidate

Clearly, Mega Salamence does not even know what resist means. It will set up and wipe you, because to mence, flying type is super effective against steel and super effective damage doesn't exist if someone is attacking mence. This thing's bulk means it sets up on everything without specs or a way to super effect it, and even then a super effective hit is usually easily roosted off (see: scarf Landorus-T's stone edge). It also sets up on 75% of the walls and support pokemon in the tier, meaning on every team you have to counter or at least check it with a specific mon, or your "physical wall" is just going to get straight 1v1'd and is setup fodder to mence. As you can see, everything it sets up on it extremely common and most of them have almost no chance to beat it. You don't even have to run speed on this thing, or even attack for that matter. Even at 0 attack, it hits like a tank and speed doesn't even matter since you outspeed almost the entire tier with little investment after one DD boost. Investing in bulk makes you survive a plethora of things, even a 4x super effective ice beam can do only 75% from something uninvested (see: porygon 2) and It can take one play rough from azumarill which is supposed to have one of the highest non legendary and non mega attack stats, if mence has bulk. Now let's see what effectively deals with mence:

-Porygon 2
-Nnaware clefable
-Skarmory
-Sylveon (doesn't enjoy a return but hyper voice goes through sub)

As you can see, there aren't many things that can counter it, but nothing truly straight counters mega mence, cause even those counters get 2hko'd or even ohko'd after a ddance or two or they simply can't kill him so they have to phaze. Everything else that counters this is just too absurd to work against everything else in the meta, just like when Mega mawile was here. We all know that as soon as Mence gets up a sub, it's essentially GG. If your sashed mamosine is dead, or your hyper voice user is dead, you can kiss the win goodbye cause this thing will 1v1 your physical wall, your physical attacker and usually your special attacker unless they have a super effective hit which even then most likely cant ohko mence. You basically have to run something to counter this, as even a check can be outplayed by a good salamence user. This monster puts half the tier to shame. If it has a sub up, your check is useless. If it has a ddance up, your counter is useless (unless you're unaware clefable or something). The only way to effectively stop this is if it's set up is to phaze it out and somehow deal with it later (skarmory is a good example of this). Of course it has a few more checks and counters than the ones mentioned, but most of those just get beat if you have a substitute up (which is pretty easy to get since mence takes 0 damage). Sashed mamo is a way to check it, but that gets bodied by a return if rocks are up since ice shard doesn't do much (because it's mence) and it pretty easy to kill with any other pokemon.

So to conclude: Ban Mega Salamence. It is simply too broken for OU to handle. It has the ability (if played well) to set up on essentially every thing that is relevant in the tier that isn't a dragon type or is strong enough to somehow ohko it (like greninja for example). As I said, a type that is resisted by flying, basically isn't in mence's eyes. Another thing which I won't touch up on too much is the fact that it is versatile AF. Even if the Sub DD set it the best, it can still run stuff to lure things like skarmory such as fire blast and ohko it like it's nobody's business. It can be a revenge killer with such good speed, a lure, and even a special attacker to trick physical walls. To me, mence is the new mega mawile, except more broken. Amazing versatility, ability to set up on about 70% of things in the tier 1v1 and beat another 20% with a Sub, flawless bulk, amazing attack complimented by one of the best abilities, a great typing, a solid mono type attacking move and an excellent speed tier and recovery is why this thing is essentially ubers material (comparable to even that of arceus) and needs to go. It only really has like 2 flaws that are brushed off by all it's pros. that is what seperates Mega Mence from everything else in the tier. Feel free to argue with me, but do so intelligently and calmly. Don't just go ahead and tell me i'm wrong, structure and reasoning is key.

(your photoshop skills are amazing, Wolf.)

TL;DR: Why are we even considering a suspect test, there is absolutely no reason to support it, Quick Ban this thing.
 
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Alright thank god this thread is out lol. I approached this from a neutral view because I rarely ever play ou. I see many comparing this thing to megakang and saying that it is more broken however megakang's only true counter is sableye (a soft one at best) while salamence has a plethora of checks like rotom w and skarm. Does this mean I don't think it is broken no way! Mence is able to bypass all of its checks by running different sets. Rotom a problem? Run sub dd How about skarm? Run fire blast. The list goes on and one
TL;DR While mence is super fun to use it is incredibly broken.
 
How is MegaSharpedo as a MegaSalamence counter? I'd assume Speed Boost Sub/Protect vs Dragon Dance/Sub/Roost requires a certain level of prediction, but MSharpedo's Ice Fang hits way harder than Mamoswine's Ice Shard, and outspeeds at +1.
Considering the most common sets of each: (1vs1)

1) Sharpedo Protects. Salamence Mega Evolves and Subs
2) Sharpedo Mega Evolves and Ice Fangs. Sub is broken, and Mence is at 75%. Salamence Returns. I would not be surprised if it were an OHKO. Or it can Dragon Dance and smash you anyway.

You have like, 25% chance to beat Mence, as the only situation Sharpedo can win is by using Ice Fang instead of Protect in the first turn, then Mega Evolve and outspeed. But then Salamence and Return right away...
 
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In my opinion Mega-Mence is completely broken. It has no real counter (it has decent both attack and sp. attack Skarmory isn't really a problem ), high ammount of speed and bulk and intimidate mixed with aerilate is just too OP.Also Mega Salamence limits the teambuilding incredibly so now every team should have scarfed pokemon with OVER 120 SPEED just to outspeed Mence after 1 D-Dance. So I think it should get a quickban as soon as possible.
 

WECAMEASROMANS

Banned deucer.
suspect test this shit, dont quickban.

thundy checks it since its immune to eq and come in on DD, and resists return, then hp ices or prankster twaves not giving a fuck about its boosts. mega slowbro isnt even 2hkoed by a +1 return to show you how pitfully weak mega mence is, then koes back with ice beam. mega mence is weak to SR and has a subpar base 100 speed when evolving, which limits surviablity and allows it to get picked off my faster threats like latias before it mega evolves.

ttar with ice beam is an universal counter to all mence sets, dd and mixed. zapdos with hp ice is a good answer for it as well. stall dgaf about mence, as cress, rhyperior, and even porygon2 are solid answers to it. im pretty sure stall would much rather face a mence than a mega sableye, for example.

weavile and mamo check even slightly weakened ones with priority, mega manectric and mega aerodactyl are also excellent checks to it, both resisting its STAB and doing massive damage in return. excadrill in sand also outspeeds, and rain teams that have kingdra/kabutops revenge mence even when its at +1, assuming an adamant nature.

i just named a whole bunch of viable checks to this off the top of my head, and they're all viable in OU. so its not like im saying use avalugg or something.

so yeah, suspect test this shit
 
The only reason why I would want a suspect test for Salamencite is to see whether or not we can get a unanimous ban vote. If anything were to get a vote spread of Ban: 70, Do Not Ban: 0, Abstain: 0, it's gonna be Mega Salamence since realistically, anything stronger than it probably wouldn't even get a test.

But realistically, if we don't want to try to make Smogon history for the most unbalanced vote pool, it's better to quickban in order to improve the meta as soon as possible. We've had a long month plus of Mega Salamence OU - I mean, ORAS OU, to see that this shouldn't be here.
Shaymin's Sky form already got a unanimous ban vote a long time ago, so even that argument is out the window.

How is MegaSharpedo as a MegaSalamence counter? I'd assume Speed Boost Sub/Protect vs Dragon Dance/Sub/Roost requires a certain level of prediction, but MSharpedo's Ice Fang hits way harder than Mamoswine's Ice Shard, and outspeeds at +1.
It's an incredibly flimsy check at best, since it doesn't outspeed +1 mence after a single boost, and I'm not even gonna bother checking how hard it gets its teeth knocked in by literally any of Mence's attacks.
 
this thing is full of pure evil in terms of its broken-ness. ive already gone over why i consider it's broken in multiple previous posts. it deserves to be in the same realm as mega kanga, luke and gengar. quickban the hell out of this stupid dragon shithead
 
When I first saw the details of Mega Salamence, I thought 120 base speed + Aerialate + DD + that really good physical bulk with Intimidate would certainly make it Uber. However, there were people who said to just give it a chance and see how it actually plays out. I think it's safe to say that it has played out exactly as I thought. I honestly don't have much experience playing against Mega Salamence because after the first time I got swept by it, I said "Fuck it. I'm not playing ORAS OU again until this thing is banned." Please Quick-Ban so ORAS OU can become playable.

Edit: Actually, please suspect test Mega Salamence. That way I will do more important things for the next month than playing on PS.
 
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It seems to me that if it is almost impossible to revenge kill since even the double super-effective ice shard off Mammoswine can't kill it, and trying to wall it would require the likes of Mega Aggron, causing people to use up their mega slot just to deal with this thing, then it is too centralising a force for OU. People shouldn't have to use their mega slot just to be able to deal with this thing, it will ruin the meta game. Definitely a vote for immediate ban.
 
I had to log in for the first time in over 6 months to say this. Is it even possible to reasonably defend this thing? It hits harder than Mega Kangaskhan, it takes hits better than Mega Kangaskhan, it's faster than Mega Kangaskhan, it has a movepool at least three times wider than Mega Kangaskhan's. That's an established Uber we're talking about, and it completely eclipses said Uber. Compare it with regular Kyogre/Groudon, who have the same offense/defense stat on either the physical or special spectrum, but they sure as hell didn't have 120 Speed, and they're banned too! You could pit it 1v1 straight up against every single thing in Ubers and I wouldn't be surprised if it beat 90% of the field. This thing belongs to Ubers. Let it go where it belongs. Quick ban it immediately, it's completely broken even on paper.
 
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That's not how it works at all. Pokemon isn't set up linerally like XXXXX > YYYYYY > salamence > ZZZZZ >
It's all about whether the pokemon that's currently in can prevent the opponent's switch from boosting then sweeping. In that regard, things like mawile and lucario can prevent it from boosting but would die in the process (having done their job). But if mence had actually gotten in first, he could already be at +1 and kill either of them. You could consider them equals because each one can basically ohko the other but none is the best, they're all completely different.
The issue isn't whether the broken crap can kill each other 1 v 1. Mega Zard X could wipe out Mega Lucario 1v1 and yet we banned Mega Luke. The issue is that broken crap leads to the meta overcentralizing around them, which is unhealthy. This isn't the place to go into detail about, but if you're not familiar with the term I'm sure you can find plenty of past threads or documents on the subject. It's undesirable in OU and adding more broken stuff to try and fix it is like introducing snakes to an environment to deal with a rat problem.

I want to throw in the fact that stall is having absolutely no problems with mence and it is only a serious threat vs offensive teams. Stall is undeniably better than ever because mawile is banned, things like heracross is being completely suppressed, weak things like scarf landorus are everywhere, and between slowbro/sabeleye and options porygon/rhyperior/rotom/etc salamence is not really anyone's problem at all. He's only good against flimsy things like Latios and Mamoswine (who everyone seems to be stubbornly using instead of actually running a goddamn mence counter).
That's nice, but we'd like the meta be a little different than just Stall and M-Mence teams. Also, there are no mence counters for offense. There are checks, but most are shaky and/or easily worn down. We run frail stuff like Latios and Mamoswine because everything else is too weak to acutally check it. Offensive teams can't exactly fit Mega Bro or Mega Sableye either.

With that out of the way, I seriously don't think he needs to be banned UNLESS nothing will ever be coming down from ubers. As far as I'm concerned things like aegislash and genesect would be more than welcome and serve a great purpose not only against mence but other things that are currently pretty troublesom. The tier can easily handle them at this point. Salamence would also have to share his throne if other extremely strong things like kangaskhan actually came down.
Aegislash and Genesect may not have been as overpowering as other bans, but they had their own issues. You should look at their respective suspect threads. Either way, you might as well jump on the quickban wagon because I seriously doubt we're unbanning anything anytime soon, and one new check/counter won't make magically make Mega Mence unbroken.

It's a very turbulent period! I don't think anyone can confidently say they have ANY idea what singles would look like if mence had competition with other megas.
Mega Luke had competition with Mega Khan and Mega Gar. They got banned for being broken. Then Mega Mawile had to compete with Mega Luke. Mega Luke got banned for being broken. Everything else had to compete with Mega Mawile. Mega Mawile got banned for being broken. We know exactly what singles would look like if a previously banned mon were to come back and compete with Mega mence. We have historical evidence we can draw from to conclude what would happen if more broken crap were tossed into the meta.
 
suspect test this shit, dont quickban.

thundy checks it since its immune to eq and come in on DD, and resists return, then hp ices or prankster twaves not giving a fuck about its boosts. mega slowbro isnt even 2hkoed by a +1 return to show you how pitfully weak mega mence is, then koes back with ice beam. mega mence is weak to SR and has a subpar base 100 speed when evolving, which limits surviablity and allows it to get picked off my faster threats like latias before it mega evolves.

ttar with ice beam is an universal counter to all mence sets, dd and mixed. zapdos with hp ice is a good answer for it as well. stall dgaf about mence, as cress, rhyperior, and even porygon2 are solid answers to it. im pretty sure stall would much rather face a mence than a mega sableye, for example.

weavile and mamo check even slightly weakened ones with priority, mega manectric and mega aerodactyl are also excellent checks to it, both resisting its STAB and doing massive damage in return. excadrill in sand also outspeeds, and rain teams that have kingdra/kabutops revenge mence even when its at +1, assuming an adamant nature.

i just named a whole bunch of viable checks to this off the top of my head, and they're all viable in OU. so its not like im saying use avalugg or something.

so yeah, suspect test this shit
Dragon STAB, Substitute, Facade, and/or a coverage move like Hydro Pump (or EQ) can nullify any of those. None of its defensive answers can kill it fast enough and none of its offensive answers have even a prayer of switching in.
 

Dread Arceus

total cockhead
Rayquaza: 105/150/90/150/90/95
Salamence-Mega: 95/145/130/120/90/120
So basically, we have a faster, bulkier Rayquaza with Aerialate, and we're asking if we should quickban it?
The real question is, "how fast can we quickban this thing."
oh and,
thundy checks Rayquaza since its immune to eq and come in on DD, and Rayquaza probably maybe won't kill if rocks aren't up, then hp ices or prankster twaves not giving a fuck about its boosts. mega slowbro isnt even 2hkoed by a +1 Outrage to show you how pitfully weak Rayquaza is, then koes back with ice beam. Rayquaza is weak to SR and has a subpar base 95 speed , which limits surviablity and allows it to get picked off my faster threats like latias.

ttar with ice beam is an universal counter to all Rayquaza sets, dd and mixed. zapdos with hp ice is a good answer for it as well. stall dgaf about Rayquaza, as cress, rhyperior, and even porygon2 are solid answers to it. im pretty sure stall would much rather face a Rayquaza than a mega sableye, for example.

weavile and mamo check even slightly weakened ones with priority, mega manectric and mega aerodactyl are also excellent checks to it, both resisting its STAB and doing massive damage in return. excadrill in sand also outspeeds, and rain teams that have kingdra/kabutops revenge mence even when its at +1, assuming an adamant nature, because everybody knows that if you're playing offense it needs to be weather or you have to be able to keep Rayquaza from setting up 1 Dragon Dance.

i just named a whole bunch of viable checks to Rayquaza off the top of my head, and they're all viable in OU. so its not like im saying use avalugg or something.

so yeah, suspect test this shit
 
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suspect test this shit, dont quickban.

thundy checks it since its immune to eq and come in on DD, and resists return, then hp ices or prankster twaves not giving a fuck about its boosts. mega slowbro isnt even 2hkoed by a +1 return to show you how pitfully weak mega mence is, then koes back with ice beam. mega mence is weak to SR and has a subpar base 100 speed when evolving, which limits surviablity and allows it to get picked off my faster threats like latias before it mega evolves.

ttar with ice beam is an universal counter to all mence sets, dd and mixed. zapdos with hp ice is a good answer for it as well. stall dgaf about mence, as cress, rhyperior, and even porygon2 are solid answers to it. im pretty sure stall would much rather face a mence than a mega sableye, for example.

weavile and mamo check even slightly weakened ones with priority, mega manectric and mega aerodactyl are also excellent checks to it, both resisting its STAB and doing massive damage in return. excadrill in sand also outspeeds, and rain teams that have kingdra/kabutops revenge mence even when its at +1, assuming an adamant nature.

i just named a whole bunch of viable checks to this off the top of my head, and they're all viable in OU. so its not like im saying use avalugg or something.

so yeah, suspect test this shit
All of your checks get destroyed after one dragon dance/one sub, and/or gets bodied by a coverage move of mence's choice. This just justifies my statement on mence being to versatile and simply too strong for any of those "checks" to actually be checks. At least something which sets up (gyarados for example) can actually be stopped by several things. If mence sets up, it's near impossible to stop without a counter unless it's taken prior damage.
 
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Mega Salamence is someone that arrived at high levels of advantages against most of the pokemons in the metagame. He has countless options due to abominable base stats , safe setup , sweeping opportunities and powerful STABs strenghtened by its own ability , besides the fact that also has a great coverage and unpredictability. Mega Salamence gains extremely easy setup opportunities also with Intimidate , which is even more facilitated by its high physical bulkyness. Has a very high speed which allows to outspeed most of the scarfed mons after a dragon dance , in short , he has insane stats. He can avoid Status , leech seeds and other stuffs with substitute , which moreover creates to him a powerful shield , difficult to break and negates any sort of revenge killing. Any mistake , a right predict against the opponent makes Mega Salamence gain more easily momentums. With supports of other things , like Screens , he can make more powerless the opponent and gain momentums also in this way. If we want to say it directly , Mega Salamence has a lot of momentum opportunities with insane stats and very easy setup , and makes him unmatched against almost all pokes , with strong advantages. This pokèmon has so many advantages that the matchup of MMence user , after 2 but sometimes also 1 dragon dance is extremely high in my opinion , something like 9:1 , which makes him extremely broken. This pokèmon destroys every sort of possibilities to balance a battle and needs to be quickbanned.
 
suspect test this shit, dont quickban.

thundy checks it since its immune to eq and come in on DD, and resists return, then hp ices or prankster twaves not giving a fuck about its boosts. mega slowbro isnt even 2hkoed by a +1 return to show you how pitfully weak mega mence is, then koes back with ice beam. mega mence is weak to SR and has a subpar base 100 speed when evolving, which limits surviablity and allows it to get picked off my faster threats like latias before it mega evolves.

ttar with ice beam is an universal counter to all mence sets, dd and mixed. zapdos with hp ice is a good answer for it as well. stall dgaf about mence, as cress, rhyperior, and even porygon2 are solid answers to it. im pretty sure stall would much rather face a mence than a mega sableye, for example.

weavile and mamo check even slightly weakened ones with priority, mega manectric and mega aerodactyl are also excellent checks to it, both resisting its STAB and doing massive damage in return. excadrill in sand also outspeeds, and rain teams that have kingdra/kabutops revenge mence even when its at +1, assuming an adamant nature.

i just named a whole bunch of viable checks to this off the top of my head, and they're all viable in OU. so its not like im saying use avalugg or something.

so yeah, suspect test this shit
What is there to test with M-Mence? Does it have to 6-0 every team to be deemed broken? (Which it can easily do, all things considered) As for the subpar speed pre-mega evolving, it really isn't difficult for m mence to mega evolve in any given match. It truly isn't. Being rock-weak is a non-factor to mence because it has roost.

As for the checks, yes, a lot of them match up well vs Mence (bro, thundy, and rhyp can get bopped by a mixed mence imo) but even then, I have to ask, does it really matter? Mence is not the only member of its team. I just wonder: is it worth our time going through a suspect test on a mon that is blatantly broken?
 
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Not a single bad stat from HP to Speed, has a plethora of great and effective sets (can go mono attacking, full special, or mixed), has access to Intimidate on top of stupidly high bulk, can get rid of status with Refresh, and it has reliable recovery in Roost. It's too damn good.

On top of that, it can beat a majority of its usual checks depending on its set and spread. Rotom-W either needs to forgo tons of bulk to break its Subs w/ Volt Switch or drop a valuable move such as Hydro, Wisp, or Pain Split to run HP Ice to check this thing. Rhyperior gets waterlogged by Hydro, Skarm gets roasted by Fire Blast, Heatran dies to EQ, and Ice Beam M-Slowbro gets blown the fuck back by Hyper Voice coming from the special set.

Zapdos, Bulky M-Altaria and Porygon 2 (mostly P2) are the only reliable "counters" to this thing. And even then, Mence forms a pretty solid core with SD Talon or Specs Keld since they heavily pressure the handful of mons that check/"counter" it, depending on the set.

The fact that Scarf Latios (which isn't bad), and Scarf NOIVERN & Scarf Greninja (these are bad) are getting a lot of usage, as well as Mamo and Weavile, just to check this thing speaks on how overcentralizing it is. I've actually faced someone using DD Mence with enough speed to outspeed Scarf Latios at +1. It's fucking insane.

At least Rocky Helmet Skarm/Ferro/Chomp could deal with M-Kanga relatively well, and were still viable in the tier, Porygon2 w/ Ice Beam is the only all-around saving grace from this monster outside of M-Altatia. And unlike a fellow powerhouse like M-Luke, it sets up on AT LEAST 3 members on your team. Meaning, if you're up against a Bisharp with your Keldeo, or against a Gengar with your Scarf Tar, you'll be in a horrible position if you get that kill since Mence comes in and either sets up, or claims a life.

There's no point in having a suspect test when we can see that an overwhelming majority wants this thing gone, meaning it's gonna get the boot anyway if its suspected. Quickbanning is the best decision. The ORAS ladder has been up for long enough and people have played against Mence for long enough (especially since it's on every other team) to see that it's blatantly broken, and you need either two checks, or an obscure mon like Scarf Infiltator Noivern or P2 to stand up against it. Just ban it so the ORAS meta can begin to develop and actually be playable.
 
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