Mega-Salamence: considering a quick ban (Don't ask for the thread to be closed!)

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Adding on to what everyone has said, it has literally demotivated me to even play the OU Ladder. I have not even touched the ladder ever since PS got back up, since everyone is just abusing Mega-Salamence and it literally sets up on anything with Sub/DD/Roost/Return, then sweeps. It's over-centralizing and constricts team-building, since we all have to have at least some form of a "good counter" (lol, i quote that because. it's fucking mega-salamence) for it, or else we're just fucked and lose to every Mega Salamence team. I've even seen Joey forced to run some obscure spread on Rotom-W, just so that Volt Switch can break sub, which is absolutely ridiculous. <-Goes to show how bulky Mega Salamence is now. With the Sub/DD being so common, and with Mega Salamence being so versatile, it can just run a special set or mixed set, saying fuck you to all your Sub/DD Mega-Mence Counters and Checks. It does not allow variety with the tier as well, since I've been basically seeing the same Mega Salamence + Greninja/ or (+) Magnezone Offense or just the standard Mega Salamence/Greninja/Magnezone/Latias/Mamoswine + Ferrothorn/Rotom-W/etc everywhere. it's absolutely ridiculous, so just Quick Ban, please.
 
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zbr

less than 99% acc = never hit
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Let's face it:
- MMence hits harder than MLuke after one turn of setup (DD mence versus SD luke)
- Has roughly the physical bulk of Ferrothorn, not factoring Intimidate pre-mega (putting it into perspective, it can set up a DD on Scarf Garchomp's Outrage of all things and ko it the turn after)
- Can't be stopped by status (Refresh or Sub) or residual damage (Roost) - monoattacker sets runs both
- 120 base speed creeps most if not all metagame threats (and it can DD further beyond)
- 120 SAtk means it can easily dispatch would-be counters with Fire Blast (Skarmory, Ferrothorn) or Hydro Pump (Rhyperior). Heck, it has STAB Aerilate Hyper Voice if you prefer going full special
- Its best checks were banned to Ubers not long ago (MMawile and Aegislash). Even then, Fire Blast 2HKO the specially defensive variants of both)

Tldr - quickban
 
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Alright, I am back, since my last post was actually not deleted, but I deleted it myself because I am too black for these forums.

Mega Salamence is fucking ridiculous in everyday you see it. The SubDD sets just completely screw up stall teams, like completely, and Rotom-W can't even beat it just because of the enormous Special Defense investment. This metagame is all about SPAMming pussy ass Scalds which makes it even more terrifying. On top of hat, this shit can't even be revenge killed by Ice Shard and due to its OP speed, it can't be killed by traditional Choice Scarf users.

The fact that it is over centralizing is proved by the presence of Choice Scarf Greninja, Focus Sash Mamoswine, and an increased Rhyperior usage. Offensive DD needs to be careful, but it gives the D to all of the tier outside of Thundurus-I. If anyone has seen aim team which I watched with gary2346, it proves how powerful it is as a lead. It starts off, crushes generic leads like Garchomp due to Roost and then weakens the whole team. Healing Wish Latias or some other bullshit like Cresselia kicks in and bam, you just finish off the team. It is a very reliable win condition and OP as well.

Absurd Mega Salamence Check / Offensive DD Mega Salamence / Wobbefutt / Gothitelle / Healing Wish user / Momentum Generator

Alright, so this team archetype makes this dragon in to a machine. Literally, you have an absurd Mega Salamence check like Focus Sash Mamoswine, Choice Scarf Greninja, or Physically Defensive Cloyster to prevent opposing ones to sweep you (which also proves it is stupid), Offensive Mega Salamence itself to GG all teams. Wobbefutt takes care of Thundurus-I crap whatever! and Gothitelle does the same thing. You can play reckless and let the Healing Wish user to do stuff. A momentum generator like CB Scizor or Rotom-W lets you get shit in safely GDI. You see this same and same build every time and shows how cancerous the ladder is.

I just went with all this teambuilding things because Mega Salamence is overcentralizing, impossible to stop, real bullshit. It needs to be quick banned at all costs and a suspect test is a waste of time, you are facing with a real nigga, gg discussion in pointless
 
Quickban PLZ...

Seriously this thing is far too busted and if you've read the thread you know why. lets just et to suspecting the broken ninja frog
 
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There's no place for creativity with Mega Mence in the meta. There's a group of a few pokemons that you MUST run if you don't wanna get swept (Mamoswine, Weavile, Zapdos, scarf Greninja, unaware Clefable, defensive Sylveon and Porygon). Sometimes having just one of these isn't enough and the entire match revolves around you keeping your Mence check healthy.

Quickban it. Like right now. It's worse than MMawile and Aegislash.
 
To the people that are for suspect testing, are you putting aside the ORAS OU ladder thats been established for over a month as an insufficient source to analyze M-Mence's capabilities? This is, by no means, to belittle your opinions. I'd just like some clarifications.
I'm just bringing this up again that is from a few pages back. A month is enough to identify whether a pokemon is obviously broken or not, better yet...It's on mega gengar/mega kang level (not really imo but it's fucking op as shit).
 
Unlike the previous mons lucario and mawile this thing actually has true counters as of now: porygon2, defensive tyranitar/megatar, mixed bulk mega slowbro, and possibly others. On top of that there's plenty of checks out there (LO ice shards, zapdos/rotom, status in general, greninja, sylveon, etc etc). Any sense of overcentralization would be completely lost if any other extremely strong megas or ubers (such as the aforementioned lucario, or things like genesect) actually dropped down for retesting, and usage got spread out. Which is seriously a viable possibility considering the insane defensive creep that we've gotten for once (sabeleye, slowbro, on top of modern stall ideas like rhyperior and tornadus)

As of now mence is warping the tier around himself and if you're not capitalizing on that by running a counter then you obviously don't care enough about winning. If you don't use a porygon2 or a spdef slowbro, and instead insist on using greninja and latios on every team, don't whine if you get shredded by dd/sub/return/roost, your team is bad. You literally made an entire team of 6 weak to the most popular pokemon and now you're complaining about him. It doesn't matter what your preferences are, competitive pokemon is about winning no matter what and if you can't fit a counter on your offensive team then stop using offense for a few weeks until the tier changes.

He is just the latest-and-greatest kangaskhan/lucario/blaziken/mawile. He sticks out like a sore thumb because every offensive weapon on his level is already banned. But the community as a whole needs to completely rethink what their idea of "broken" or "overpowered" is because pokemon is power creeping like hell and no doubt a pokemon Z or some such is going to deliver even more stuff of the same caliber.

Retest things. Don't quickban mence just yet and don't suspect greninja or whatever, bring down aegislash, genesect, and a couple choice megas and see where we are. It won't be as chaotic and team matchupy as you expect. And even we do run into team match up problems remember that it's pokemon and 66% win rate is -good- so even if everyone will always be inherently weak to one mega, it's not as terrible as your knee jerk might make it out to be.
 
Unlike the previous mons lucario and mawile this thing actually has true counters as of now: porygon2, defensive tyranitar/megatar, mixed bulk mega slowbro, and possibly others. On top of that there's plenty of checks out there (LO ice shards, zapdos/rotom, status in general, greninja, sylveon, etc etc). Any sense of overcentralization would be completely lost if any other extremely strong megas or ubers (such as the aforementioned lucario, or things like genesect) actually dropped down for retesting, and usage got spread out. Which is seriously a viable possibility considering the insane defensive creep that we've gotten for once (sabeleye, slowbro, on top of modern stall ideas like rhyperior and tornadus)

As of now mence is warping the tier around himself and if you're not capitalizing on that by running a counter then you obviously don't care enough about winning. If you don't use a porygon2 or a spdef slowbro, and instead insist on using greninja and latios on every team, don't whine if you get shredded by dd/sub/return/roost, your team is bad. You literally made an entire team of 6 weak to the most popular pokemon and now you're complaining about him. It doesn't matter what your preferences are, competitive pokemon is about winning no matter what and if you can't fit a counter on your offensive team then stop using offense for a few weeks until the tier changes.

He is just the latest-and-greatest kangaskhan/lucario/blaziken/mawile. He sticks out like a sore thumb because every offensive weapon on his level is already banned. But the community as a whole needs to completely rethink what their idea of "broken" or "overpowered" is because pokemon is power creeping like hell and no doubt a pokemon Z or some such is going to deliver even more stuff of the same caliber.

Retest things. Don't quickban mence just yet and don't suspect greninja or whatever, bring down aegislash, genesect, and a couple choice megas and see where we are. It won't be as chaotic and team matchupy as you expect. And even we do run into team match up problems remember that it's pokemon and 66% win rate is -good- so even if everyone will always be inherently weak to one mega, it's not as terrible as your knee jerk might make it out to be.
Trust me bringing back super glue and friends will make things worse. I get it you just want to use Msalamence and Aegislash on the same team in PS, but that isn't how it goes. It won't change the fact that they are overcentralizing and capitalize on several team archetypes weaknesses making them nearly unviable to use.

It won't push creativity on team composition and spreads, if anything it will punish it even further. Making this game a team match up forfeit fest.
 

Karxrida

Death to the Undying Savage
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
Unlike the previous mons lucario and mawile this thing actually has true counters as of now: porygon2, defensive tyranitar/megatar, mixed bulk mega slowbro, and possibly others. On top of that there's plenty of checks out there (LO ice shards, zapdos/rotom, status in general, greninja, sylveon, etc etc). Any sense of overcentralization would be completely lost if any other extremely strong megas or ubers (such as the aforementioned lucario, or things like genesect) actually dropped down for retesting, and usage got spread out. Which is seriously a viable possibility considering the insane defensive creep that we've gotten for once (sabeleye, slowbro, on top of modern stall ideas like rhyperior and tornadus)

As of now mence is warping the tier around himself and if you're not capitalizing on that by running a counter then you obviously don't care enough about winning. If you don't use a porygon2 or a spdef slowbro, and instead insist on using greninja and latios on every team, don't whine if you get shredded by dd/sub/return/roost, your team is bad. You literally made an entire team of 6 weak to the most popular pokemon and now you're complaining about him. It doesn't matter what your preferences are, competitive pokemon is about winning no matter what and if you can't fit a counter on your offensive team then stop using offense for a few weeks until the tier changes.

He is just the latest-and-greatest kangaskhan/lucario/blaziken/mawile. He sticks out like a sore thumb because every offensive weapon on his level is already banned. But the community as a whole needs to completely rethink what their idea of "broken" or "overpowered" is because pokemon is power creeping like hell and no doubt a pokemon Z or some such is going to deliver even more stuff of the same caliber.

Retest things. Don't quickban mence just yet and don't suspect greninja or whatever, bring down aegislash, genesect, and a couple choice megas and see where we are. It won't be as chaotic and team matchupy as you expect. And even we do run into team match up problems remember that it's pokemon and 66% win rate is -good- so even if everyone will always be inherently weak to one mega, it's not as terrible as your knee jerk might make it out to be.
It doesn't really matter if counters exist, because every Pokemon has counters. Even Kyogre has counters, but it's still banned cause it's a broken piece of shit.

I honestly don't know why people are even trying to argue for a test when we know for a fact that Mega Salamence is going to get banned if one happens. Testing it would be a huge waste of time and resources that we don't need to spend if we can help it. Quickban please.
 
Unlike the previous mons lucario and mawile this thing actually has true counters as of now: porygon2, defensive tyranitar/megatar, mixed bulk mega slowbro, and possibly others. On top of that there's plenty of checks out there (LO ice shards, zapdos/rotom, status in general, greninja, sylveon, etc etc). Any sense of overcentralization would be completely lost if any other extremely strong megas or ubers (such as the aforementioned lucario, or things like genesect) actually dropped down for retesting, and usage got spread out. Which is seriously a viable possibility considering the insane defensive creep that we've gotten for once (sabeleye, slowbro, on top of modern stall ideas like rhyperior and tornadus)

As of now mence is warping the tier around himself and if you're not capitalizing on that by running a counter then you obviously don't care enough about winning. If you don't use a porygon2 or a spdef slowbro, and instead insist on using greninja and latios on every team, don't whine if you get shredded by dd/sub/return/roost, your team is bad. You literally made an entire team of 6 weak to the most popular pokemon and now you're complaining about him. It doesn't matter what your preferences are, competitive pokemon is about winning no matter what and if you can't fit a counter on your offensive team then stop using offense for a few weeks until the tier changes.

He is just the latest-and-greatest kangaskhan/lucario/blaziken/mawile. He sticks out like a sore thumb because every offensive weapon on his level is already banned. But the community as a whole needs to completely rethink what their idea of "broken" or "overpowered" is because pokemon is power creeping like hell and no doubt a pokemon Z or some such is going to deliver even more stuff of the same caliber.

Retest things. Don't quickban mence just yet and don't suspect greninja or whatever, bring down aegislash, genesect, and a couple choice megas and see where we are. It won't be as chaotic and team matchupy as you expect. And even we do run into team match up problems remember that it's pokemon and 66% win rate is -good- so even if everyone will always be inherently weak to one mega, it's not as terrible as your knee jerk might make it out to be.
What you called 'counters' can be stalled out of Ice Beams/Stone Edges simply by SubRoost lol.
 
Unlike the previous mons lucario and mawile this thing actually has true counters as of now: porygon2, defensive tyranitar/megatar, mixed bulk mega slowbro, and possibly others. On top of that there's plenty of checks out there (LO ice shards, zapdos/rotom, status in general, greninja, sylveon, etc etc). Any sense of overcentralization would be completely lost if any other extremely strong megas or ubers (such as the aforementioned lucario, or things like genesect) actually dropped down for retesting, and usage got spread out. Which is seriously a viable possibility considering the insane defensive creep that we've gotten for once (sabeleye, slowbro, on top of modern stall ideas like rhyperior and tornadus)

As of now mence is warping the tier around himself and if you're not capitalizing on that by running a counter then you obviously don't care enough about winning. If you don't use a porygon2 or a spdef slowbro, and instead insist on using greninja and latios on every team, don't whine if you get shredded by dd/sub/return/roost, your team is bad. You literally made an entire team of 6 weak to the most popular pokemon and now you're complaining about him. It doesn't matter what your preferences are, competitive pokemon is about winning no matter what and if you can't fit a counter on your offensive team then stop using offense for a few weeks until the tier changes.

He is just the latest-and-greatest kangaskhan/lucario/blaziken/mawile. He sticks out like a sore thumb because every offensive weapon on his level is already banned. But the community as a whole needs to completely rethink what their idea of "broken" or "overpowered" is because pokemon is power creeping like hell and no doubt a pokemon Z or some such is going to deliver even more stuff of the same caliber.

Retest things. Don't quickban mence just yet and don't suspect greninja or whatever, bring down aegislash, genesect, and a couple choice megas and see where we are. It won't be as chaotic and team matchupy as you expect. And even we do run into team match up problems remember that it's pokemon and 66% win rate is -good- so even if everyone will always be inherently weak to one mega, it's not as terrible as your knee jerk might make it out to be.
Mega-Mence might have counters like others said. But it's so utterly broken, that you're forced to run specific, effective counters just for Mega-Mence on your team, or else you're shitted on by Mega-Mence teams. It goes to show how it's constricting team-building a bunch. You can make that same arguement for other Megas, except what Mega-Salamence seperates itself from others is that it's an over-centralizing piece of crap that GF decided to make.
 
The fact that it has counters at all in fact hugeley differentiates it from things that were banned previously. And the pokemon that counter it are very good mons in general, not niche things at all.
 
The fact that it has counters at all in fact hugeley differentiates it from things that were banned previously. And the pokemon that counter it are very good mons in general, not niche things at all.
You don't understand. If Mega-Mence is forcing you to run specific mons' just to counter that one single mon' (itself-Mega Salamence), then there's a problem. It's constricting team-building, forcing you to run specific mons' to counter Mega-Mence or else you're fucking shitted on by teams revolving on Mega Mence. (e.g. The Standard - Greninja/Magnezone/Latias/Mamoswine/Ferrothorn/Mega Salamence). It makes the ladder disgusting as well, seeing the same standard Mega-Mence team and there's no variety. I was not against the pokemon used as counters for Mega-Mence. Not to mention, it's counters still lose, since it's ridiculous high speed and bulk can just Sub/Roost.
 
The fact that it has counters at all in fact hugeley differentiates it from things that were banned previously. And the pokemon that counter it are very good mons in general, not niche things at all.
Trust me, most stall players want to run Mega Sableye instead of Mega Slowbro for utility and shitting on stall breakers. And Porygon2 only fits on balanced teams as it kills momentum for any offensive team and can be a easy prey for a trapper. And even then you have to keep them constantly healthy as Mega Salamence just hits so damn hard. They are not hard counters anyways and even if there are one or two counters it does not make them not broken because it is so easy nowadays to provide the necessary team support to get rid of any potential wall and just sweep. Trappers and healing wish Latias is just the tip of the iceberg and letting Mega Salamence stay will only prove what has already been proven: That Mega Salamence is too broken to be OU.
 
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Why are we going back an forth on the same arguments, do you want to go over the same 50/50 fest that was aegislash discussion or you want to actually have an ORAS metagame that doesn't revolve on the same dammed lizard.

All the counter arguments I have seen for 8+ hours have been about people wanting to use a shinny, people who didn't use our ladder and complain about the games just being out, get gud smogon haters and metapod joke guys, people who have no idea of what a counter is OR insist suboptimal unviable sets make an overcentralizing pokemon just fine for OU(Scarf ninja, lol avalugg) and then those guys who want to retest their favorite banned pokemon because they think more broken over centralized pokemon would make the game more diverse when in reality they will punish team building creativity even more...

We are just going in freaking circles, lock this thing make some votes and ban this thing already.
 

AM

is a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion
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lol with M-Salamence there's no 50/50. If anything it's more of a multi faced dice with all the versatility and options that it packs. If you haven't used M-Mence and haven't seen it used by a competent person and not some dude that just spammed Substitute until they had 1 HP left, it's hard to justify reasoning such as "Choice Band Mamoswine with Adamant nature beats it." Team building constraint is one of the biggest factors in M-Mence being a problem. The level of constraint is just too much for it to stay in OU and give ourselves the illusion that somehow it'll provide a desirable metagame amongst the community.
 
Could you please just quickban M Mence?
You can literally set up on Rotom-W... like... hello?

Let's talk about M Mence answers:
  • Ferrothorn: Just sub and dd until it runs out of gyro balls.
  • Latias: After +1 you can sub on their dracos and continue to set up.
  • Lando-T: Pretty sure doesn'tt even OHKO you with stone miss edge, you can set up on it.
  • Sylveon (?): After +1 it's dead.
  • Greninja: ...

let's not talk about it...
  • Thundurus-I: Pretty much only an answer if Mence isn't behind a sub.
  • P2: Without trace --> intimidate this thing is not taking on M Mence.
  • Tyranitar: Stalled out of stone miss edge.
  • ???
  • Priority: Mence is way too bulky to get OHKO'd by anything but ice shard and even then it depends on the spread.
Not only that but good players also give M Mence team support with good teambuilding and trappers, it's just too good for OU.
It makes the game less enjoyable imo
 
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lol with M-Salamence there's no 50/50. If anything it's more of a multi faced dice with all the versatility and options that it packs. If you haven't used M-Mence and haven't seen it used by a competent person and not some dude that just spammed Substitute until they had 1 HP left, it's hard to justify reasoning such as "Choice Band Mamoswine with Adamant nature beats it." Team building constraint is one of the biggest factors in M-Mence being a problem. The level of constraint is just too much for it to stay in OU and give ourselves the illusion that somehow it'll provide a desirable metagame amongst the community.
By 50/50 discussion I meant that we are arguing in the same way we did on the aegis thread. Be people refusing to admit it existed, others diminishing it, or ignoring the fact that aegislash was an incredible momentum Graber, something that happens and is a constant in Salamence based teams. But I'm not arguing about that now. I'm arguing about us going in circles for something that has been accepted for at least 80% of the community.
 
Unlike the previous mons lucario and mawile this thing actually has true counters as of now: porygon2, defensive tyranitar/megatar, mixed bulk mega slowbro, and possibly others. On top of that there's plenty of checks out there (LO ice shards, zapdos/rotom, status in general, greninja, sylveon, etc etc). Any sense of overcentralization would be completely lost if any other extremely strong megas or ubers (such as the aforementioned lucario, or things like genesect) actually dropped down for retesting, and usage got spread out. Which is seriously a viable possibility considering the insane defensive creep that we've gotten for once (sabeleye, slowbro, on top of modern stall ideas like rhyperior and tornadus)
You seem to think that overcentralization only occurs if there's only one broken mon in a tier. That is absolutely false. Ubers is still considered a very centralized tier despite the multitude of broken threats in it: Xerneas, Mewtwo, Kyogre, Blaziken and I'm sure there are more that I'm missing. While overcentralization is fine and accepted in Ubers, we don't want that, and your "let's drop broken crap down to OU to check broken crap" proposal would lead to this. Please stop bringing it up.

As of now mence is warping the tier around himself and if you're not capitalizing on that by running a counter then you obviously don't care enough about winning. If you don't use a porygon2 or a spdef slowbro, and instead insist on using greninja and latios on every team, don't whine if you get shredded by dd/sub/return/roost, your team is bad. You literally made an entire team of 6 weak to the most popular pokemon and now you're complaining about him. It doesn't matter what your preferences are, competitive pokemon is about winning no matter what and if you can't fit a counter on your offensive team then stop using offense for a few weeks until the tier changes.
If we're not running stall, we HAVE NO COUNTERS. We use Greninja and Latios because offense doesn't have many other options and the only OU Ice Shard users can't switch into MegaMence and are either frail (Weaville) or have a plethora of exploitable weaknesses (Mamoswine). Your "counters" kill offensive momentum and are only good options on Stall-oriented teams. I assure you, teambuilding is not the issue.

He is just the latest-and-greatest kangaskhan/lucario/blaziken/mawile. He sticks out like a sore thumb because every offensive weapon on his level is already banned. But the community as a whole needs to completely rethink what their idea of "broken" or "overpowered" is because pokemon is power creeping like hell and no doubt a pokemon Z or some such is going to deliver even more stuff of the same caliber.
We're Smogon. We ban broken crap in OU. When Pokemon Z comes along, if it's broken and overcentralizing we'll ban it, plain and simple.

Retest things. Don't quickban mence just yet and don't suspect greninja or whatever, bring down aegislash, genesect, and a couple choice megas and see where we are. It won't be as chaotic and team matchupy as you expect. And even we do run into team match up problems remember that it's pokemon and 66% win rate is -good- so even if everyone will always be inherently weak to one mega, it's not as terrible as your knee jerk might make it out to be.
As I and many others have stated, bringing down broken crap to check broken crap is not a step forward, it's a step back. Stop suggesting it. We also shouldn't have to throw games because broken crap screws with our team matchups.

The fact that it has counters at all in fact hugeley differentiates it from things that were banned previously. And the pokemon that counter it are very good mons in general, not niche things at all.
We banned Blaziken despite it being countered by Azumarill and Talonflame, both of which are non-niche counters. This isn't a valid argument, nor is saying "Mega Mence has 2 counters so he shouldn't be banned"

And just in case you missed it the first time: STOP SUGGESTING WE DROP BANNED CRAP INTO THE TIER.
 
You seem to think that overcentralization only occurs if there's only one broken mon in a tier. That is absolutely false. Ubers is still considered a very centralized tier despite the multitude of broken threats in it: Xerneas, Mewtwo, Kyogre, Blaziken and I'm sure there are more that I'm missing. While overcentralization is fine and accepted in Ubers, we don't want that, and your "let's drop broken crap down to OU to check broken crap" proposal would lead to this. Please stop bringing it up.
I bring it up because as of now there's absolutely no telling what retests are in order.


If we're not running stall, we HAVE NO COUNTERS. We use Greninja and Latios because offense doesn't have many other options and the only OU Ice Shard users can't switch into MegaMence and are either frail (Weaville) or have a plethora of exploitable weaknesses (Mamoswine). Your "counters" kill offensive momentum and are only good options on Stall-oriented teams. I assure you, teambuilding is not the issue.
There's a huge list of things that offensive teams dont have counters to (azumarill, greninja, heracross, probably more than half the tier to be honest) and mence is not unique in that regard. It's your choice whether you want to go the bulky route and true counter mence or if you want to go the offensive route and pack mamoswine, rotom, etc -- they all have weaknesses. Those aforementioned counters fit perfectly fine on offensive teams, much like a ferrothorn does. Even uninvested TTar hits hard with ice punch stone edge fire blast and has rocks. P2 is extremely useful on every team and doesn't kill momentum whatever that means.


IWe're Smogon. We ban broken crap in OU. When Pokemon Z comes along, if it's broken and overcentralizing we'll ban it, plain and simple.


As I and many others have stated, bringing down broken crap to check broken crap is not a step forward, it's a step back. Stop suggesting it. We also shouldn't have to throw games because broken crap screws with our team matchups.
I do agree with this, but my own idea of "What is 'broken'?" has changed vastly. At the moment nothing strikes me as broken beyond belief besides mega gengar and blaziken (and for him, unfortunately only because of baton pass. if he only had pure offensive sets then i'm not sure). There are a lot of factors at play here. The only reason mence teams can actually get away with running stuff like gothitelle is because aegislash isn't around to fuck with both of them at once. The only reason mence gets away with having sub AND roost is because he doesn't need coverage move to hit mawile and such. If mence somehow became forced to be a regular sweeper with DD/return/fire/eq then he'd lose everything that made him bulky and special in the first place and he'd be hard-checkable by more offensive means once again.

And you never have to throw away games if your team is built well, you could be vastly disadvantaged but not autolosing, it'd come down to lucky guesses on their coverage moves. I threw in that part about team match up because it is unavoidable no matter what the OU tier looks like, and no one can be sure how much of an effect it will play when more things get banned or of old things get unbanned.

We banned Blaziken despite it being countered by Azumarill and Talonflame, both of which are non-niche counters. This isn't a valid argument, nor is saying "Mega Mence has 2 counters so he shouldn't be banned"

And just in case you missed it the first time: STOP SUGGESTING WE DROP BANNED CRAP INTO THE TIER.
Having counters does not mean it isn't uber material, but one too many people have come into the thread saying there's no counters or no answers to it when that's not true at all. I'll reiterate that it's not banned right now, and if you don't have a counter then your team is bad, unless you actually have the guts and knowhow to make frail offense work (which most people copying pokeaim's youtube teams don't). The things that counter it are good pokemon in OU and fit comfortably on every archtype. It might still be broken, uber, but I'd only support banning it if there's some sort of confirmation that nothing will ever ever drop from ubers.
 
If you have to go out of your way really far (scarf greninja) to check it, its a problem. It does have some more solid checks, but It can pick and choose which ones It wants to beat depending on the set and leave the others for its team to handle.

TL;DR Ban that dragon for the love of god
 

Asek

Banned deucer.
The fact that it has counters at all in fact hugeley differentiates it from things that were banned previously. And the pokemon that counter it are very good mons in general, not niche things at all.
Havent played / posted OU regularly in a while so forgive me if this is wrong in any way

AFAIK there is nothing that counters MegaMence to a satisfactory degree (by that I mean all of its sets that AREN'T run specifically to beat said counter) that would be considered often in teambuilding if MegaMence wasnt present. When a single pokemon bends the meta to such a degree that a team pretty much has to run it and/ or multiple Checks / counters to it, its a sure sign that its significantly better than the competition, and is unhealthy for the current state of OU. Theres no harm in a quickban now, and once the meta settles down having a potential suspect to see if it is truly broken in a settled state of OU, or the council could wait and suspect test, there really is no harm in either approach other than this potentially effecting ongoing tournaments (iirc the ladder tournaments on?)

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Retest things. Don't quickban mence just yet and don't suspect greninja or whatever, bring down aegislash, genesect, and a couple choice megas and see where we are. It won't be as chaotic and team matchupy as you expect. And even we do run into team match up problems remember that it's pokemon and 66% win rate is -good- so even if everyone will always be inherently weak to one mega, it's not as terrible as your knee jerk might make it out to be."
broken mon countering broken mon = balance metagame idea leads to a horribly shit version of a metagame, just look at BW for evidence. BW OU had politoed, ninetales and to an extent ttar completly centralizing the meta to the point where stupidly powerful pokemon such as Kyurem - B were introduced into the meta. If you need to drag a proven broken pokemon back into OU to fix a pokemon, isnt that a surefire sign that pokemon is broken?
 
and if you don't have a counter then your team is bad
I think I'm done for the night. What kind of logic is that? That's basically proving all of what I just said, that Mega-Mence is over-centralizing and restricts teambuilding. You're telling me that I can't make a team without having to use things Mamoswine, Weavile, Skarmory, Rotom-W, etc., everytime just for Mega-Mence? (Not that I have anything against those mon's) You're telling me, 100% of the teams I make, must have a Mega-Mence Counter? lol. my team is bad because it doesn't have a mega-mence counter. what a joke.
 
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