np: ORAS Doubles Stage 0 — Bennie and the Jets

[Stratos]

Welcome one, welcome all, to the new age of Doubles! Now that ORAS has officially been released, the standard Smogon Doubles ladder is full of ORAS goodness. The era of XY Smogdubs is officially over.

As anyone who's played around more than a little can tell you, Mega Salamence is pretty strong. That's why we named this suspect stage after him. Though this thread is for the general discussion on everything in the metagame, we are particularly interested in Salamencite.

Still, note that this isn't a Suspect Discussion thread. We're not currently running a suspect test (it's too early for that yo), so please hold back on posts convincing people that something is or isn't broken. When I say we're particularly interested in Salamencite, I mean that I want to see posts about Mence sets you're using, Mence partners you're using, Mence counters you're using. Feel free, of course, to discuss sets, partners, and counters for everything else too. I and the rest of the council will be doing our due diligence to play around with as many of the things talked about in this thread as we can (and as much as we can in general) and then come to a decision on how to proceed with tiering in the near future.

Finally, it should go without saying, don't be a moron itt.

 

[finally]

Finally, it should go without saying, don't be a moron itt.

Why you gotta single me out

edit: i have been using sylveon paired with tailwind as a mega salamence check (hyper voice breaks all those dumb sub sets KyleCole is running). i have been also using steels that resist dragon and flying (read mega metagross and aegislash, not genesect or scizor or ferro) to check salamence. this is because i have found most salamences forgo earthquake for dragon dance. because of the way you need a salamence check in the forme of a steel resist, i have noticed scizor and genesect and ferro and other steels not resistant to flying on the decline because they have to compete for the steel spot on a team without actually contributing the flying resist that you need from a steel.
also special salamence is weak like shelgon, do not use it loves

 

[Idyll]

I've been using DD MegaMence and it's been pretty good for me. I'm using a variant without a Dragon-move since it does very little coverage-wise. Forgoing a Dragon-type move doesn't really make you lose out on anything except hitting the Electric-types Rotom-A and Thundurus, both threats the Mence should try beating anyways or else it'll just get statused with a burn or para respectively. Dragon Claw doesn't really beat those Electric-types too so it shouldn't really bother with it. Instead, I opted to run Return and EQ on it. EQ hits a lot of things that resist Return such as Heatran and Diancie for a solid damage which is pretty useful, especially when trying to sweep with DD.

Salamence @ Salamencite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 64 HP / 252 Atk / 192 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Return
- Earthquake
- Dragon Dance
- Protect

Its bulk, Speed, and power really threaten lots of shit on the field. You pretty much have to go out of your way just to find something that can actually beat this thing. It takes effort to beat even unboosted since it's still pretty fast while still hitting pretty hard with x1.3 boosted STAB Return. Priority bar Ice Shard and, to an extent, Brave Bird can't really beat it either. Intimidate is basically the icing on the cake since it's just so helpful in weakening shit. Sometimes I just not mega when I don't have to so I can keep Intimidating later in the game for easier set-up which is priceless lol. All in all, great mega great bird pls put in S-Rank tnx.

 

[Bughouse]

I have been using

Salamence (M) @ Salamencite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 8 Atk / 28 Def / 44 SpD / 176 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Roost
- Protect
- Return

This shit just doesn't die. With proper Follow Me/Rage Powder support, you are guaranteed one boost, usually two+. And roosting throughout the match is actually very doable. This set feels weird because nothing else really works like it in doubles, but I swear by it.

Meanwhile, that 8 attack investment looks low, but you're still OHKOing the bulkiest fairy you'll have to face often. +1 Return KOs 200/56 Sylveon 100% of the time. Protect is there for nasty Fake Outs and for protecting Mence on turns where you need to sac its partner to get out the right supporter, etc. It's also handy for stalling TR should it manage to get set.

 

[KyleCole]

-Obligatory "we should suspect Kangaskhan"

Now for my mence :]

Me>Haruno (Salamence) @ Salamencite
Ability: Intimidate
Happiness: 0
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant/Jolly Nature
- Dragon Claw / Earthquake
- Frustration
- Dragon Dance
- Substitute

Not exactly perfected yet, the nature keeps coming down to whether I need to be able to come in on Latios post mega with a free switch, usually Adamant is better. I always run max speed (you need at least 240 but at that point might as well max) to beat modest Hydreigon pre Mevo. I've experimented with Dragon Claw and EQ and in the end I find that both are equally good, you just need to decide if you want to beat Electrics (they pretty much all float) or Heatran & Aegislash. Spread is nice but I find myself gravitating towards Dragon Claw because a lot of the time I can get a free Sub on Rotom forms when they Will-O and being able to do damage to them is nice.
No Protect is kind of risky so obviously this Salamence is better suited to a late game clean than playing throughout the entire thing, but Sub on mence is incredible because most people rely on Intimidators/Will-O to beat it, and it also keeps you safe from random scarfers with Ice Beam. The checks that you need to remove before you can really go to town with this thing are Diancie, Suicune, TTar, Bulky Thundy, and Rotoms/Heatran depending on your set. If you can get +2 at any time the only thing that becomes relevant in that list is Diance and this set will 6-0 through teams with minimal support.

252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 270-328 (81.5 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO THIS DOESN'T EVEN FACTOR INTIMIDATE GODDAM

EDIT: adding special mence aka mega mehnce

(see finally's post above)
Salamence @ Salamencite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 24 HP / 252 SpA / 232 Spe
Modest Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Hyper Voice
- Fire Blast
- Protect

Not a whole lot to say, outspeeds Garchomp post Mevo, you need Modest because this thing is weak. Fire Blast is to beat every steel minus Tran but even Hydro Pump won't OHKO so you're better off just letting that go.

 

[DaAwesomeDude1]

Lately I've been using Hitmontop as a partner for Megamence. It checks most of Sala's "checks" mainly Heatran and Mamoswine. Quick guard stops opposing ice shards (and to a lesser extent, brave bird) and wide guard helps against hyper voice. Intimidate is also really handy and it can provide fake out support too.

 

[qwerts]

Lately I've been using Hitmontop as a partner for Megamence. It checks most of Sala's "checks" mainly Heatran and Mamoswine. Quick guard stops opposing ice shards (and to a lesser extent, brave bird) and wide guard helps against hyper voice. Intimidate is also really handy and it can provide fake out support too.

but double intimidate basically gives bisharp the win, n_n

Anyways a partner I've been using to much success is jirachi, with follow me support and resisting fairy's/iron head flinches it works pretty well. Pair it with a fighting type (not another intimidate i.e. top/scrafty) to beat sharp/tran.

Jirachi @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 232 HP / 88 Def / 168 SpD / 20 Spe
Careful Nature
- Skill Swap
- Thunder Wave
- Iron Head
- Follow Me

Completely unrelated to mega mence, crobro is a solid playstyle I've been using that has been quite successful. Build a supportive team around mega slowbro that takes all its checks/counters out and then wreak havoc. Several important things to keep in mind are redirection, immobilization(sleep, para), and taking out annoying rotom's. Also nice to have safety goggles on at least one mon to help counter amoonguss's.

Slowbro @ Slowbronite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 8 SpA / 244 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Calm Mind
- Scald
- Psychic
- Slack Off

 

[shaian]

Everyone's out here running Dragon Dance and I'm just sitting here using mixed. One thing I haven't seen mentioned in here is how well Salamence can be used to pick apart defensive cores on most teams, as very few things can take multiple Returns, and the 120 spa can be used to beat common steel types which check physical sets (mainly aegislash and metagross). Which takes me to a pair I've been using which is Heal Pulse Gothitelle and MegaMence. The plan is fairly straightforward:
1. Find key mon on the opponents team
2. Trap with Gothitelle
3. Use Mence to end it
4. Heal off damage
Paired in conjunction with gothitelle, mixed mence can absolutely annihilate unprepared teams. Does the opponent need that keldeo for later? trap and destroy! You like Sylveon? I like Sylveon, pity your one is now dead! That's a cool looking amoonguss you got there friend, it would be a shame if something were to happen to it...
Does not work as effectively if the opponent has a weavile though.

also toxic gothitelle because crobro is anti-hype :>

 

[AuraRayquaza]

I havent used salamence that much, but i can say that rotom w is a solid poke in this meta, not least because it beats salamence.

Physically defensive rotom is a very good poke in ORAS dubs, as it resists all of salamences potential moves (eq, flying STAB, fire blast) and can beat it with WoW (no sub) or thunderbolt which always breaks a sub.

It also beats multiple other threats, like talonflame, mega swampert and mamoswine, who i suspect will have a bit more usage as it can check salamence.

Rotom-Wash @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 120 Def / 136 SpA
Bold Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Hydro Pump
- Will-O-Wisp
- Protect

The evs were taken from the analysis with the spdef evs moved into def lol. But still this thing is very good and finds its way onto almost all of my teams. I would defintely suggest trying it if you have salamence problems

 

[Lasagne]

i use specs sylveon + special tailwind megamence for hyper voice spam and its rly fun
my only regret is not being able to use megakanga for fake out support, using infernape instead which is doin pretty well
bisharp and infernape are both sashed which has a nice surprise factor, was running shuca sharp but it never activated so rip innovation
last 2 members are twind zapdos and amoon for redirection support

 

[Hashtag]

user finally has made me aware of the pokemon Rhyperior, which i think may be best pokemon around if you are looking to switch into mega salamence.
it has amazing physical bulk, and 140 base attack ice punches.

I've just been running 252/252 with assault vest, so there is probably a better option, but it can be a part of an awesome defensive backbone, as it also stops thunder wave cold

edit: Salamence wins if it has hydro pump, but i havent seen that yet.

 

[Nollan]

My thoughts on the metagame are very strong, so I'll just get that bias out of the way off the bat (aka I h8 Salamence lol). Also it is quite obvious that it is incredibly early into the meta, so anything I say is based off of a couple of days and thus isn't intended to say what's going to be good or bad or whatever, but rather what I think we should keep our eyes on for a later date based on whats currently going around.

I'm just going to say it; Salamence is probably the best Mega yet. I feel like its similar to Kangaskhan in that it can beat a ton of things and has obnoxious power. The difference I have noticed in comparison is that it has the ability to run sets on either side of the spectrum and perform very well with either (the physical sets are the more common though). Since its has more meaningful STAB then the kangaroo (Dragon + Flying > Normal), it definitely feels like something that you should either be running or be extremely prepared for.

The most common playstyle by far from what I've seen is Tailwind. Stuff like Zapdos + Salamence + Bisharp is very common. Azumarill w/ Belly D(r)um is also getting very common, so overall I'd say if something isn't getting quick kills its going to be more difficult to use in the meta for the most part. I've also seen a lot of Trick Room, though I notice it HAS to be dedicated to beat most Tailwind teams, as they really just win vs a team w/ only one setter. If you aren't running Fake Out support or redirection (and both never hurts) Trick Room can't keep up with the raw power of the meta atm. Semi-Trick Room, which is something I've been trying extensively, doesn't beat well played Tailwind w/ MegaMence in a lot of scenarios. I've also heard from several players that they tend to run multiple Sash mons (new meta?) to survive the powerful offense that is running around.

It goes without saying that the meta is very physically-orientated atm, so bulkier Pokemon should probably be looking into having a good chunk of physical bulk for success. Additionally, while this is simply a theory atm, I predict that Salamence, Diancie, Kangaskhan, and possibly MegaGross are really the only Megas you can run without likely losing more than you gain. Some others I can see working with support decently are Altaria, CharYZard, Manectric, Lopunny, and Mawile. If anyone is having good success with other Megas, I'd be very excited to hear about it (also pls give me your team as well). :)

I personally have been trying Sceptile-Mega extensively, and thus far haven't performed too well with it (I am the low-tier hero y/n), but I'll keep people updated on how it goes in that alley. For those who aren't familiar Sceptile does have Quick Guard access, so that's one of the things it has going for it.

 

[xzern]

Diancie @ Diancite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Diamond Storm
- Moonblast
- Hidden Power [Ground] Earth Power
- Protect

so mega diancie is p. good etc etc. I've personally found that its combination of the abilities clear body -> magic bounce works really well, not taking any speed loss from sticky web-using low ladder fucks, but more importantly blocking stat drops from switchins to icy wind or shadow ball or something. Magic bounce is really unexpected and bounces status back to gay things like rotom-w and dusclops, and also prevents diancie from getting put to sleep which is pretty cool. Offensively, diancie is a really good because it gets to use diamond storm, a spread move that's rock type and gets 100 bp. rip talonflame.
Also, diancie is a really good check to megamence if it's not carrying something like hydro pump.

 

[Stratos]

xzern diancie gets earth power

 

[Qazoo306]

I personally have been trying Sceptile-Mega extensively, and thus far haven't performed too well with it (I am the low-tier hero y/n), but I'll keep people updated on how it goes in that alley. For those who aren't familiar Sceptile does have Quick Guard access, so that's one of the things it has going for it.

I haven't tried to build a team around Sceptile yet, but I'd like to try. What play styles have you tried it on? I was thinking about trying it on rain because it can redirect both thunder (bolts) and thunder waves passively while being really fast and relatively powerful. Has anyone else had any successful attempts to build around Sceptile?

Although, Sceptile is weak to both flying and dragon (when mega), and Salamence is extremely prominent in this meta...
I'm on the fence about weather or not Mence is uncheckably broken, but I do think that a suspect test is in order. Thee is no double on my mind that it is definitely very centralizing, but since it's doubles it is definitely checkable. We could do a test like how we did the Kangaskahn test with two separate ladders. Anyone else's thoughts on testing it?

 

[xzern]

Although, Sceptile is weak to both flying and dragon (when mega), and Salamence is extremely prominent in this meta...
I'm on the fence about weather or not Mence is uncheckably broken, but I do think that a suspect test is in order. Thee is no double on my mind that it is definitely very centralizing, but since it's doubles it is definitely checkable. We could do a test like how we did the Kangaskahn test with two separate ladders. Anyone else's thoughts on testing it?

Honestly I feel mega salamence doesn't need to be suspected, it has quite a few obstacles in its way of being an unstoppable force of destruction like mega kangaskhan is. For example, it can't do much to togekiss, rotom-w, or mega slowbro. offensively, it's outsped and killed with an ice beam from darkrai and scarf genesect. Additionally, it can't really ohko sylveon, and sylveon has no problem with instantly eliminating any trace of megamence with its pixilate hyper voice. also, if you're not running fire blast, you can't get rid of mega metagross with salamence. It may be a bit centralizing, but so is mega kangaskhan, justifying the use of rocky helmet on my ferrothorn.
However though, like most things in doubles, it can be checked passively with most sorts of common combinations like tailwind + fairy type attacker (sylveon) or trick room + azumarill or something.

 

[DaAwesomeDude1]

I haven't tried to build a team around Sceptile yet, but I'd like to try. What play styles have you tried it on? I was thinking about trying it on rain because it can redirect both thunder (bolts) and thunder waves passively while being really fast and relatively powerful. Has anyone else had any successful attempts to build around Sceptile?

Although, Sceptile is weak to both flying and dragon (when mega), and Salamence is extremely prominent in this meta...
I'm on the fence about weather or not Mence is uncheckably broken, but I do think that a suspect test is in order. Thee is no double on my mind that it is definitely very centralizing, but since it's doubles it is definitely checkable. We could do a test like how we did the Kangaskahn test with two separate ladders. Anyone else's thoughts on testing it?

I use sceptile with safety goggles gyarados lol, it's been working pretty fine tbh

 

[Bughouse]

xzern Diancie really should be running more physical attack. Diamond Storm is that spammable. Just run enough SpAtk EVs to KO Bisharp, Heatran, Latios, etc. A much better set for this meta in general is

208 Atk / 48 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature

 

[Level 51]

I use sceptile with safety goggles gyarados lol, it's been working pretty fine tbh

please explain exactly what goggles gyara has to do with sceptile and what set you have had success with.

 

[DaAwesomeDude1]

please explain exactly what goggles gyara has to do with sceptile and what set you have had success with.

Whoops, sorry about that. I've been using:
Sceptile @ Sceptilite
Ability: Overgrow->Lightningrod
EVs: 4 HP, 252 SpA, 252 Spe
Timid nature
- Giga Drain
- Focus Blast
- Dragon Pulse
- Protect
and
Gyarados @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 92 HP / 116 Atk / 78 Def / 4 SpD / 218 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Waterfall
- Ice Fang
- Dragon Dance
- Protect
The whole reason this started was because i wanted to try out regular d dance gyarados. Originally i had manectric over sceptile (dual intimidate after mane megas and because lightningrod before mega) but then i realized that rotom wash can still burn my gyara so i figured sceptile will be a better fit. Sceptile is there to pretty much redirect electric attacks aimed at gyarados and take out rotom wash so i can set up. I originally had lum berry instead but decided to go with safety goggles because +1 ice fang doesn't OHKO amoonguss and isn't a guaranteed OHKO on breloom so it allows me to not be spored. I actually got this spread from Adib's gyarados that he used at VGC nationals so I can't take credit for it (too lazy to make my own spread rip). The spread lets gyara take a return 100% of the time after intimidate and outruns greninja/salamence without a DD after one DD.

 

[qsns]

I feel Mawile is really strong in this metagame, being able to intimidate + KO Mence. It gets bopped by fire blast or +1 EQ, but I don't think the special set is too viable and it's hard to get to +1 factoring in Intimidate.

 

[Enki]

Intimidat + DD is unrestrainable, aerilate gives it more power with huge stabs.
Special set is viable, Hyper Voice after mega evolution is now a Stab, Fire Blast and Draco Meteor = no way to leave.
I think we need a lot to stop this, and this run a lot of times with a Follow Me user or Rage Poweder, gives it Set Up easy.
Imo suspect is a good way for Salamencite.

 

[qwerts]

Intimidat + DD is unrestrainable, aerilate gives it more power with huge stabs.
Special set is viable, Hyper Voice after mega evolution is now a Stab, Fire Blast and Draco Meteor = no way to leave.
I think we need a lot to stop this, and this run a lot of times with a Follow Me user or Rage Poweder, gives it Set Up easy.
Imo suspect is a good way for Salamencite.

goggles mamoswine ftw

 

[Qazoo306]

Tail wind is really strong in this meta. I've been running speed on stuff like Sylveon and Aegislash and intend to try a fast Choice Band Azumarill. Base 60s can outspeed Salamance with 124 (I think) speed EVs and a neutral nature if their team has tailwind up. Sylv is especially good because Hyper Voice goes through subs, which are gaining popularity, and OHKOes Mega Salamence after a sub (does 85%-100% iirc). Mega-Salamence is a good abuser because it will then win in the mirror match up against other Mence (implying there are no stat boost), as do the numerous base 110s that were introduced in ORAS.

 

[qsns]

In a similar vein of speed control, I think Full Trick room is finally viable lol. Considering a lot of focus on building for the current metagame is focused on beating fast offensive threats, Trick Room is able to reverse that for its own gain. Thanks to huge threats like Mega Mence and the resurgence of Rain, bulky offense has taken a stand back in the tier, which are the kinds of teams that are able to stand up to the onslaught of Trick Room. From what I've seen, the most that teams have for Trick Room is Spore Amoonguss, which is incredibly easy to play around due to TR having access to two incredibly powerful sweepers with spread moves that can stand up to it, Mega Abomasnow and Mega Camerupt.

tbch, I don't see this trend continuing too long. As the metagame progresses, people will find ways to build effective bulky teams that deal with threats, in turn making TR less threatening. In the meantime though, I suggest you should have more than one soft check to the playstyle, as it's threatening as hell rn.

edit: Fangame10