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Isa

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The main issue is the absolutely terrible lack of coverage options. Articuno has an amazing special stat but only Ice moves to show...and Bubblebeam. It has lackluster physical attack (not that it gains Drill Peck either way) and has to rely on Normal type moves to hurt Lapras, Cloyster, Chansey and Starmie (Jynx gets 4HKOd despite resisting the STAB).
 
How does articuno do in RBY, the thing has 125 special, and STAB blizzard, how come it's not OU af?
Because Lapras exists, and Lapras is just as bulky (though admittedly a bit less powerful) while having a better defensive typing (only 2x weak to Rock instead of 4x, a 4x Ice resist instead of neutrality) and a far better movepool (remember that Hidden Power doesn't exist in RBY; as such, Articuno's stuck with Sky Attack, Hyper Beam and 100-BP Double-Edge for coverage, while Lapras has Body Slam - with a paralysis chance - and Thunderbolt).

Now, all that said, Articuno still does have some advantages over Lapras: it has a Ground immunity, it resists Grass (only really relevant against Victreebel, but still), it gets Agility, and its STAB Blizzard both is significantly stronger (2HKOing Tauros, and usually 4HKOing Starmie) and has a significantly-higher crit rate. But in general Lapras is better.

Whether Articuno should be considered OU is actually a matter of some debate; it's about as good as Persian, or maybe even a little better. But I'm not sure Persian really belongs in OU either.
 
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Jorgen

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Yeah coverage coverage coverage is important, and the reason why Articuno isn't OU.

That said, there are standard-ish teams that don't bother with aquatics of their own. Stuff like Alakazam/Egg/Snorlax/Tauros/Chansey/Golem. These teams hate going against Articuno because once Chansey is frozen it basically has free reign. Then again, the same could be said of Jynx, who is more flexible with its options outside of Blizzard spam.
 
Yeah coverage coverage coverage is important, and the reason why Articuno isn't OU.

That said, there are standard-ish teams that don't bother with aquatics of their own. Stuff like Alakazam/Egg/Snorlax/Tauros/Chansey/Golem. These teams hate going against Articuno because once Chansey is frozen it basically has free reign. Then again, the same could be said of Jynx, who is more flexible with its options outside of Blizzard spam.
Articuno doesn't risk OHKO from Tauros and Snorlax (and has a slightly lower chance of OHKO from Golem). And it guarantees the OHKO on Golem and the 2HKO on Tauros. Also it has Agility to actually enable a full sweep without needing Alakazam and Tauros pre-paralysed.

Then again Jynx is a great lead and Articuno is a shit lead so whatever.
 
In BW, I know Drizzle + Swift Swim is banned, but is Rain Dance + SS banned?

If yes, what is the rationale of banning?

If no, is it terrible? Because I don't remember people using it, by looking at the tour replays.
 
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Bedschibaer

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No, swift swim + rain dance is not banned.
Is it terrible? Well it's not great, let me tell you that in advance. There is a reason nobody is using it as a dedicated team archetype, it's good on mons like Kingdra, even though the missing coverage option can get a bitch. Kingdra is a great anti rain mon though, because it enornously increases your matchup vs rain teams and you don't have to bother spending a turn setting up rain, considering Kingdra only has rather limited time windows to sweep. Manual rain teams haven't ever been a really good thing though and that for a good reason - inconsistency.
 
In BW, I know Drizzle + Swift Swim is banned, but is Rain Dance + SS banned?

If yes, what is the rationale of banning?

If no, is it terrible? Because I don't remember people using it, by looking at the tour replays.
No, swift swim + rain dance is not banned.
Is it terrible? Well it's not great, let me tell you that in advance. There is a reason nobody is using it as a dedicated team archetype, it's good on mons like Kingdra, even though the missing coverage option can get a bitch. Kingdra is a great anti rain mon though, because it enornously increases your matchup vs rain teams and you don't have to bother spending a turn setting up rain, considering Kingdra only has rather limited time windows to sweep. Manual rain teams haven't ever been a really good thing though and that for a good reason - inconsistency.
And it's a metagame dominated by weather. It's not worth committing half your team to manually setting up rain dance (when teambuilding) and half your turns manually setting it up (in game), when it's very easy for a lot of teams to remove (just by switching in). And all teams are prepared for water spam (or at least should be).
 
Did DPP really revolve that much around dedicated leads? I've heard that they were important (and I played a little competitive back then but not too much), but the DPP viability thread has lead rankings as well. I mean, dedicated leads aren't really that popular in XY. I'm guessing it has something to do with Team Preview or the lack there of, but it just seems like a bit much.
 

Jirachee

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Did DPP really revolve that much around dedicated leads? I've heard that they were important (and I played a little competitive back then but not too much), but the DPP viability thread has lead rankings as well. I mean, dedicated leads aren't really that popular in XY. I'm guessing it has something to do with Team Preview or the lack there of, but it just seems like a bit much.
Most leads nowadays aren't "dedicated leads", they're just the thing on your team most adapted to leading. Most of the time you want your lead to either set up Hazards or kill the opponent's lead, although some rare leads are just scout leads (for example Flygon or Scarf Jirachi.) Suicide hazard leads were much more effective in the Latias metagame because Starmie wasn't nearly as good (it's top 3 now, when it was something like top 30 back then) so you could afford sacrificing your SRer turn 1 because it'd guarentee you rocks the entire game. But yeah, the lead match up is really important in DPP especially for offensive teams, because starting the game off with heavy momentum gives you a large advantage over more passive teams, which explains why things like Zapdos and Machamp are common.
 

Oglemi

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To expand a bit, the lead metagame is most important considering the importance of Stealth Rock in DPP. You'll find that the lead metagame isn't as defined in ADV or GSC because it isn't as "important," but that isn't to say it isn't still important to starting off your gameplan well. The combination of no Team Preview, large selection of Pokemon, scouting, momentum, and Stealth Rock in DPP culminated into having well-defined lead metagames in everything from Ubers to NU.
 
Not only that, Pokemon hit much harder, and have a wider variety of items to hold. One hit kills are more common do to Life Orb and Band/Specs leads, while you may get thrown off by Focus Sash or Scarf leads on the other end. Mix in a more available Trick, more priority moves, and improved Taunt, naturally, you have a focused lead game in the no Team Preview environment (No TP>TP).
 
To expand a bit, the lead metagame is most important considering the importance of Stealth Rock in DPP. You'll find that the lead metagame isn't as defined in ADV or GSC because it isn't as "important," but that isn't to say it isn't still important to starting off your gameplan well. The combination of no Team Preview, large selection of Pokemon, scouting, momentum, and Stealth Rock in DPP culminated into having well-defined lead metagames in everything from Ubers to NU.
What? GSC doesn't have a well-defined lead meta at all. Apart from a couple of Pokemon that make bad leads (ie, stuff like Skarmory that's both completely unthreatening and easily exploited), you can lead basically anything. Most teams actually can/should rotate their leads (Baton Pass teams are the main exception; they usually lead Smeargle).

RBY's lead meta is a lot more defined than GSC's.
 

Bedschibaer

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Well, this is kind of a question from what point onwards you can even speak of a defined lead meta. It is true that the lead in gsc is probably the thing you shouldn't worry alot about at all, which is also hugely because of the fact that you will have a durable and healthy switch-in for basically everything at the very beginning of a match in gsc (unlike in dpp which is a huge aspect of why the lead meta there is so important, but that was already covered). That's why there is basically 4 types of "big" leads in gsc, but then again, those aren't very well-defined but they are definitely there. 1. Spikes leads - if spikes is an integral part of your strategy you might as well try setting them up turn 1, 2. Electrics - most common lead mostly because they prevent or punish early spikes and since you can lead anything you might as well lead something that has a great matchup versus most of the whole tier, 3. Anti-electric leads - lead nidoking, lead snorlax, actually raikou too to some extent, heck i have even seen lead marowak. Expecting the incredibly common electrics lead and giving you a great matchup vs. that specifically, 4. Status leads - Eggy lead falls into that category, Nidoking, Snorlax, etc do too. Gaining an early advantage by crippling mons with status, even though there the categories here aren't that, well, defined since they overlap and there are quite alot greyzones. My point is that there is more to gscs lead metagame other than "it's basically arbitrary unless you lead something shitty" - there are good leads in gsc and strategies like the turn 1 explosion with forry on the electrics, that was discussed somewhat recently on here, actually proves that there is a imo quite well-defined lead meta. The only thing is that even if you win the lead meta as in get the better matchup that allows you to follow your strategy and interupts your opponent from using his strategy you won't really gain huge advantages because as already mentioned there usually is a mon on your opponents team that can just take the attack, the status, etc. and gets the matchup advantage back to the other guys side. But yeah, gsc lead meta is not nearly compareable to rby lead meta, which is not only limited on very few mons but also has a whole lot of more impact on the outcome of a match than in basically every other tier. Rby lead meta is basically the definition of a well-defined lead meta, gsc is far away from that, even though i wouldn't go as far as saying it doesn't have a well-defined lead meta at all (sadly no usage statistics have gsc ou lead statistics so i could actually prove my points...)
 

Oglemi

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What? GSC doesn't have a well-defined lead meta at all. Apart from a couple of Pokemon that make bad leads (ie, stuff like Skarmory that's both completely unthreatening and easily exploited), you can lead basically anything. Most teams actually can/should rotate their leads (Baton Pass teams are the main exception; they usually lead Smeargle).

RBY's lead meta is a lot more defined than GSC's.
That's what I said, that ADV and GSC do not have a defined lead metagame.... I said not as defined as DPP meaning there is less to no definition of a lead metagame

and seriously stop coming off like an ass, every single post of yours is assuming and far too terse/rude throughout the forum
 

Isa

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That's what I said, that ADV and GSC do not have a defined lead metagame.... I said not as defined as DPP meaning there is less to no definition of a lead metagame

and seriously stop coming off like an ass, every single post of yours is assuming and far too terse/rude throughout the forum
Okay, I misread you (I read it as "as defined as in" instead of "as defined in"). Apologies.

Rudeness is generally not intended. I am a pretty terse person, though. Is this a threat to ban me?
 

Isa

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I think the game automatically and temporarily makes your team healthy upon initiating a player vs. player battle.

If pre-statused mons were a thing, you'd have Leftovers Poison Heal Gliscor/Breloom in various metas. That'd be too much.
 
"In competitive battling in Generation I, as Pokémon were not healed before link battles in the handheld games players would often enter battles with their Pokémon already poisoned"
source: http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Poison_(status_condition)

Now i am not 100% sure, but i do remember the above being the case. God imagine if simulators allowed you to bring pre-burned Starmie/Alakazam in RBY. Strictly speaking they should, however i predict that RBY would become stallier, with burned Zam no longer fearing Freeze from Chansey or status in general and Starmie becoming a Freeze whore + the best offensive check for Tauros.

An RBY tournament to test such metagame would be interesting.
 
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Mr.E

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Pre-poisoning was a thing in RBY (or pre-burn on special attackers same difference), as in it was possible. Nobody actually did it because the official events didn't let you, it makes you a huge douchebag and I don't think a simulator's ever allowed pre-setting a status at the start of a battle anyway.
 
Which raises the question of "should we allow it". I'm not sure TBH. I mean, we did adopt Sleep Clause in RBY, but RBY without Sleep Clause is just a complete joke (if there's one gen where I'm not sold on Sleep Clause, it'd be GSC, because of the way RestTalk works in that gen - but definitely not in RBY where sleep lasts ages and Sleep Talk doesn't exist) - except maybe if you allow pre-status, because that blocks sleep. I agree with the ban on Dig, Fly, and the Evasion moves, as well, because they just turn the game into a luckfest, but allowing pre-burns/pre-poisons doesn't do that - in fact, it reduces the luck element by reducing the number of "full paralysis" turns, sleeps (inaccuracy, but also duration) and freezes.
 

Isa

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I say: let's not shake things up majorly after having the game played for over a decade.
 
...Ban on Dig and Fly? u w0t m8
Well, they're claused on sims. But if we were playing with fully-accurate cartridge mechanics you bet they'd be banned.

If a Pokemon gets fully paralysed or hits itself in confusion during the second turn of Dig or Fly in RBY cartridges, it remains invulnerable (well, technically it gains 100% evasion) until Dig or Fly is used again.
 

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