np: UU Stage 1 - Changes

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Actually MDiancie has one other nuisance aside from the steel types it is Blissey XD. That fat blob will just eat through her HP, which isn't hard given how low it is, with Seismic toss and can easily stall out the low PP of Diamond Storm, and it seems many Blissey's I've fought are EVd on the defensive side. I'm a bit surprised to be honest that the pink blob could hold her own so well. I know most people use steels as their go to but Blissey is definitely a good answer as well that I'm not seeing much mention of, she outright screws over special sets by merit of her blubber (yeah I don't like her). Regardless, she does have opportunity costs that need to be weighed in. However, in the sense that one set bops offense and the other stall I'd liken that to Victini, only you don't have freakishly high BP moves like Bolt Strike and V-Create so that you end up with more 2HKO rather than flat OHKO.

I am actually iffy on Staraptor primarily because there are very few safe switch ins to this guy, and if you don't pack a steel type (not named Coballion or Lucario) you should expect it taking down a member or two. It is very punishing. Nonetheless, again I don't see this as being on the chopping block for a quick ban as it can be managed fairly well.
 
So we were talking about this in the UU room but I'm just gonna make a whale of a post now about the 6 mons that could go.

Klefki: I think the consensus on this thing is that it's broken, which imo is very true. Priority screens is enough and makes setup sweepers 10x better than they already are, giving them multiple setup opportunities and even without setup sweepers they are way too beneficial for being so easy to set up. Priority spikes means you're guaranteed to get up 1 or 2 lyers every time Klefki comes in, if you so choose to set them up. Priority t-wave, as it has been talked about so many times before, cripples offense to no end and since only ground/electric types can avoid it (and considering the only electric types right now really are raikou and rotom-h, it's basically krookodile and raikou that can avoid priority twave on offense) it's kind of over the top. I'm not saying klefki will always get up both screens, 3 layers of spikes and a twave every time it comes in, but it is guaranteed to get up at least one of those three things, all of which are rather devastating to the opponent since they either make the opponent miss kills because of screens, have huge amounts of pressure on the walls not avoid 2hko's by the new pokemon that have entered the tier that have ridiculous amounts of power, or cripple offensive pokemon that can be used to check these pokemon.

Togekiss: An intresting case. Togekiss is a pokemon that has checks, raikou, rotom-h, mega aero, jirachi, mega aggron, etc. A couple of these mons don't want to switch into a thunder wave, though. Tbh I just find it way too easy for togekiss to win games by itself, since it can click twave to paralyze a switchin, setup a nasty plot for free, and either baton pass off that boost or, if the check has been weakened enough, easily sweep by itself. It has absurd amounts of team support as well- defog, wish, and heal bell is no slacker. Its typing means it is only stopped by the steel types that are running rampant right now, an electric type, or a rock type such as Rhyperior or Mega Aerodactyl. I feel as if Togekiss is the least broken thing right now but as UU ALL DAY said above once raikou and jirachi leave it's broken for sure.

Staraptor: Yeah, burd is still really good. Staraptor means either you have a doublade or a bronzong, or a really really sturdy steel type, or you lose a pokemon every time it comes in. The absolute best way to stop a banded staraptor is not the throw on a doublade but in fact just wear it down with recoil and rocks damage and keep coming in and revenge killing it with someone faster or with priority. It's interesting since Staraptor kills itself, but also 2hkos everything in the entire tier that's not named Doublade/Bronzong/Mega Aggron. You can also expect a Double-Edge and switch in something that can take that and not a brave bird, that is also faster than Staraptor and go from there. THe issue is, though, that with no stealth rocks up Staraptor can just spam extremely powerful attacks, wear itself down, and either it has punch a massive hole in the opponents team for a teammate or it has just outright killed 2-3 mons. Overcentralization is an issue here with the aforementioned doublade/aggron/bronzong, since you shouldn't have to use one of those pokemon on every team just to check Staraptor. Still as broken as it was before (oh and klefki checks it but thats probably getting banned anyway)

Volcarona: Not too much discussion on this one, sets up on a whole lot of shit (especially that which can check togekiss, altaria, diancie and staraptor!) and proceeds to sweep anything that doesn't resist all of its moves. Bulkarona is incredible, and regular volcarona is really impressive too. Tentacruel, mega aerodactyl and the fire types are basically it for checks once it can setup and has proper entry hazard support. Volcaroan just sweeps way too easily, and guess what, Klefki provides screens so it bulks like nothing else and easily gets up at least 2 quiver dances, and if it gets 3 up it has a guaranteed kill on mega aero after rocks. Obviously broken and most likely will be banned so again there's not too much need for a long discussion on this mon.

Now for the fairies!

Mega Altaria: I know a lot of people have said this pokemon is underwhelming, and a lot of people have said it is broken. My personal belief is that it is overcentralizing and unhealthy for the metagame. Mega Altaria is a pokemon that, when given screens support which is really easy to give and a proper switchin, can sweep the entire tier. In this way, it makes a bunch of pokemon previously useful in UU really not good at all. Vaporeon without Roar, Suicune, Mega Ampharos, Zygarde and Hydreigon are just a handful, with the slight exception of zygarde because EQ still hurts especially after a coil. For instance, if Vaporeon uses Wish with Altaria on the field, and altaria switches in, it is guaranteed to get a sub up, and at that point it's a matter of whether the user without zygarde has a Bronzong/Doublade/Aggron/Jirachi etc which decides whether or not a sweep is incoming. It's not the fact that Altaria is an extraordinary sweeper, which it is, that makes it banworthy to me. Altaria forces the opponent to have a steel type or a very bulky fire/poison type although fire types have nothing to touch altaria with a sub up and the only poison type that can stop it is like defensive Nidoqueen. And the selection of steels isn't exactly wonderful either; Aggron can stop it when healthy although it doesn't appreciate EQ if it has a lot of prior damage and hazards are up, Empoleon has to have roar, Forretress has to have gyro ball and even that can be stalled out, Jirachi loses to EQ Mega Altaria at +1 with rocks up, Klefki is probably gone soon although it too needs Altaria not to have a sub up, lucario lol and Mawile is a good check although it's vastly unexplored in the tier and there's not telling whether or not it's good or not. So you basically have Mega Aggron, Physically Defensive Roar Empoleon, Bronzong, Doublade, Scarf Jirachi and Mawile and Empoleon and Jirachi are extremely shaky checks. When you are forced to use Bronzong and Doublade or use your mega slot on Aggron, that is overcentralizing and for that reason I believe it should be banned.

Mega Diancie: I find it interesting that people are talking about how Diancie only has 50 HP when Diancie has never been designed with bulk in mind. Diancie comes in and 2hkos something with moonblast/diamond storm/earth power thats not named ronzong. With 160 attack and 160 special attack along with 110 base speed and rock polish and calm mind and access to a STAB combination that hits every pokemon in UU other than Bronzong, it's a monster to be reckoned with and from what I've found it basically does this: switches in on its many crucial resists because it resists flying, fire, and dark which is pretty huge and fires off a strong hit either weakening its checks or getting a kill. When the opponent brings in a check like Scarf Jirachi, Diancie switches out, switches back in, and does the same thing again. And because it will always be dealing around 30% to every pokemon in the tier in the least, and because klefki makes entry hazards so easy to get up which turns 3hkos into 2hkos and 4hkos into 3hkos, diancie becomes even better. With 2 spikes up the only pokemon in the tier that can switch into all three moves and not be 2hkod is Bronzong. I honestly think though that if Diancie gets its own retest outside of this hyper offensive klefki meta, it might be okay since it hugely benefits from staraptor/togekiss/volcarona doing huge amounts of wallbreaking (oh and pair it with raptor- raptor weakens everything that checks mega diancie.) Oh and Rock Polish lets it outspeed the entire metagame and considering its a fairy it can setup on a whole lot of stuff.

So that's my spiel. I think maybe Togekiss and Mega Diancie could stay although togekiss should be gone if raikou and jirachi leave. Raikou is probably the most solid togekiss check right now and Diancie really benefits from all of the hard hitting wallbreakers that are absolutely everywhere right now and klefki so if those go it could have an even higher chance of staying.
 
Mega Pidgeot makes a pretty powerful birdspam partner with Staraptor, and is basically a special / physical version of what we saw with Talonflame / Staraptor combo in OU. Pidgeot's Heat Wave coming off base 135 sp.atk shreds through steel types Staraptor has issues getting through (except for Heatproof Bronzong, but that's extremely rare). Not only that, but the special walls that Pidgeot has issue dealing with are completely massacred by Staraptor's Brave Bird. Their dual u-turns are also pretty nasty, as usually the defensive answers to Pidgeot do not want to be caught with Staraptor and vice versa.
 
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Actually MDiancie has one other nuisance aside from the steel types it is Blissey XD. That fat blob will just eat through her HP, which isn't hard given how low it is, with Seismic toss and can easily stall out the low PP of Diamond Storm, and it seems many Blissey's I've fought are EVd on the defensive side. I'm a bit surprised to be honest that the pink blob could hold her own so well. I know most people use steels as their go to but Blissey is definitely a good answer as well that I'm not seeing much mention of, she outright screws over special sets by merit of her blubber (yeah I don't like her). Regardless, she does have opportunity costs that need to be weighed in. However, in the sense that one set bops offense and the other stall I'd liken that to Victini, only you don't have freakishly high BP moves like Bolt Strike and V-Create so that you end up with more 2HKO rather than flat OHKO.
Mega Diancie can run Moonblast / Earth Power / Psyshock / Calm Mind, which beats Blissey in most cases. I haven't seen that set used much, but it does exist.
 

Hogg

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Mega Diancie can run Moonblast / Earth Power / Psyshock / Calm Mind, which beats Blissey in most cases. I haven't seen that set used much, but it does exist.
Hmm. I've been running CM/Moonblast/Earth Power/Diamond Storm on my sand balance team, but Psyshock might be worth trying out. I'd been thinking of swapping in HP Fire over Diamond Storm, but I was hesitant to lose the ability to so thoroughly screw over Togekiss and special walls in general (not to mention losing any Speed ties against other base 110s). I'll have to give Psyshock a shot.
 
Mega Diancie can run Moonblast / Earth Power / Psyshock / Calm Mind, which beats Blissey in most cases. I haven't seen that set used much, but it does exist.
While it could the problem is Diamond Storm offers better utility in general, which is why it isn't run too often, especially in this tier where offensive rock types are sought, primarily because as noted above due to bird spam. While that CM set could bone more defensive teams it gives up too much utility against bulky offense (the dominant type) and more hyper offense as you lose the immediate power to threaten them.

Even in OU I'd still opt for Diamond Storm since that offers the immediate power needed to plow through Zapdos/Talonflame/Pinsir/Charizard etc.

Hmm. I've been running CM/Moonblast/Earth Power/Diamond Storm on my sand balance team, but Psyshock might be worth trying out. I'd been thinking of swapping in HP Fire over Diamond Storm, but I was hesitant to lose the ability to so thoroughly screw over Togekiss and special walls in general (not to mention losing any Speed ties against other base 110s). I'll have to give Psyshock a shot.
I wouldn't really switch HP fire as an option either. Sure you'd be able to hit Bronzong but... Bronzong isn't exactly difficult to wear out, he has no recovery, so that adding that slot specifically for him doesn't do you much favors when there are better alternatives to dealing with him, he is quite overloaded dealing with Fairy+Flying as is.
 
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kokoloko

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The first round of quickbans has ended, and the results, in number of ban votes out of twelve, are:

Volcarona - 12
Staraptor - 6
Togekiss - 11
Altaranite - 12
Diancite - 12
Galladite - 5
Klefki - 10
Suicune - 2
Lopunnite - 5
Zygarde - 2

And since the minimum number of ban votes required to send a Pokemon to the BL waiting list is 6, this mean's we'll be temporarily saying goodbye to Volcarona, Staraptor, Togekiss, Mega Altaria, Mega Diance, and Klefki. Interesting how everyone was clamoring for Klefki to be unbanned, and once it was, it got sent right back to BL, no?

Here's some basic reasoning behind these bans:

Volcarona is easily among the most threatening setup sweepers in the game, being exceedingly difficult to stop due to Quiver Dance boosting all of its Special Attack, Special Defense, and Speed at the same time, making even revenge killing it very difficult. It finds setup opportunities almost every game due to its great set of resistances which include Fighting-, and Steel-, two very common types to be Choice-locked into in UU. Its Base Speed is also high enough that only two of the common Choice Scarf users in the tier can outspeed and revenge kill (Mienshao and Infernape) and even then, its not guaranteed since they need to rely on the inaccurate Stone Edge to do so. While you would think its 4x weakness to Stealth Rock severely hinders its sweeping potential, the fact of the matter is that hazard removal is extremely easy in UU, given the fact that the tier is home to two of the fastest Defog users in the game (Crobat and Aerodactyl) and literally all but one of the Rapid Spin users in the game, including Starmie and Mega Blastoise, which have nice synergy with Volcarona and are extremely effective at removing hazards.

Staraptor's sheer power is what makes it such a threat. Despite the fact that its main attacking moves come with a steep price of 1/3 recoil and its notable Stealth Rock weakness, Staraptor still tears holes into all kinds of teams. To give you an idea of its power, here's how much damage a resisted Brave Bird does to a Choice Scarf Jirachi coming from Jolly Choice Band Staraptor: 48.6 - 57.4%. This means that Jirachi can only come into that attack a single time before succumbing to it. Also, much like Volcarona, the Stealth Rock weakness is easily neutered in this tier, due to the fact that there are so many efficient ways of removing hazards here.

Togekiss is a Pokemon who has the perfect typing, ability, and stat combination to pretty much beat anything in the game 1 on 1, which is absolutely insane. Between its nice set of resistances, courtesy of its Fairy-typing, access to paralysis inducing moves (Thunder Wave and Body Slam), and Serene Grace to boost its main STAB attack's chance of flinching the opposing Pokemon to an absurd 60%, Togekiss is an absolute nightmare to face. The fact that it can boost its Special Attack to absurd levels with Nasty Plot is just the icing on the cake. These qualities alone disqualify any Pokemon slower than Togekiss as a check, since they run the risk of simply getting flinched to death, and given the fact that it can, and usually does, use its bulk to tank any hit from any Pokemon in order to paralyze them and make them slower, one comes to the conclusion that checking Togekiss is just too difficult in this tier.

Mega Altaria holds even more sweeping potential than Volcarona, possesses better typing than Togekiss, and is nearly as strong as Staraptor (jk Staraptor is WAY stronger, but still) due to its Pixilate boosted Return / Body Slam / Hyper Voice backed by 110 Attack / Special Attack. Mega Altaria also packs more than enough bulk to set up multiple Dragon Dances with its 75 / 110 / 105 Defenses and can run a variety of sets ranging from mono-attacking Dragon Dance to full Special Attacker, making it very dangerous to face on the first turn it comes out. However, don't confuse my words, this doesn't mean the threat has been neutered once the set is discovered, even knowing, for example, that you're facing a Dragon Dance Altaria with Roost, Return, and Earthquake, there's not much you can do to stop it, since even Pokemon that resist its Pixilate boosted Returns take a huge chuck of damage from it and can rarely actually do much damage in return.

Mega Diancie is an absolute terror. Between its twin 160 attacking stats, its above average 110 Speed, Magic Bounce to deflect any attempt to stop it from setting up, access to both STAB Moonblast and Diamond Storm, and excellent coverage in the form of Earth Power, Mega Diancie has proven to be absurdly difficult for UU to handle. It can run Calm Mind to plow through defensive teams with ease or Rock Polish to decimate offensive teams. It can even forego a boosting move and simply run Hidden Power Fire as coverage to get past its only decent check--Bronzong. There's really not much more I can add here; if you've faced a Mega Diancie, you know what it can do.

Klefki's case if one I find kind of amusing. Back when we banned Klefki the first time around, people complained a whole lot because no one really saw how it could be broken. Then we decided to unban it when ORAS was released and just a single short week later, people could not stop complaining about how absolutely ridiculous its support capabilities are. Between its ability Prankster, which gives all non-damaging moves +1 priority, and access to Spikes, Reflect, Light Screen, Thunder Wave, Magnet Rise, and Magic Coat, Klefki is one of the few Pokemon in the game that never fail to do its job. Its most dangerous set is, at least in my opinion, Thunder Wave, Light Screen, Reflect, and a filler move, while holding a Light Clay. This allows Klefki to both aid in setting up any of the wide array of dangerous setup sweepers that reside in UU (try and stop Cloyster from setting up two Shell Smashes behind Screens, I dare you) and also mitigate the risk or running heavy offense with insurance against most sweepers due to priority Thunder Wave. There's also a few people, myself included, who believe access to prankster Thunder Wave promotes bad and careless playing, which is a small part of the reason Klefki is getting the boot again.

Just remember, here in UU, bans are never permanent, and all of these Pokemon will have a chance at coming back into UU after the council re-tests their capabilities individually (assuming they don't move to OU first, of course). Finally, there will only be one more round of bans before we begin retesting suspects back into the tier, until then enjoy a more balanced tier!
 
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I think the change in opinion of Klef comes down to the sudden surge of set-up sweepers. I don't exactly remember the first Klefki test (think I had just started then), but we definitely didn't have as many 'mon then as we do now who can truly abuse sitting behind Screens while getting their boosts.

At the same time, some of the biggest offenders of it just got taken out of the picture, so who knows.
 

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Sad to see Diancie and Altaria go, but thrilled to see Volcarona and Klefki gone. I have mixed feelings about Staraptor.

Guess we'll see a big drop in bulky Steel usage now that Diancie and Altaria and Togekiss are out...
 

Meru

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Fighting-types in general are going to be back to resurge this meta, as we just removed a grand total of four Fairy-types, which could both resist and hit them super effectively, Staraptor who gave them a hard time with its Scarf set, and Volcarona who used them as set-up bait. On top of that, Sableye isn't around anybody, which probably hasn't been as obvious until now.
 
Still shocked that Altaria, and to an extent, Diancie went, but call it massive bias based on my own playstyle since I rarely had trouble with them, and when I did it was my own fault.

THANK FUCKING CHRIST THAT CUNT KEY IS GONE. Okay, I'm down, thanks for indulging me. Can we please never see it again? I get it, two members of the Council are full of shit, but can we please just never retest it? If I ran this dictatorship, both Thundurus and Klefki would be banned to Anything Goes and they would never see the light of day again, Prankster Thunder Wave is THAT broken, Dual Screens is just icing.

Kinda sad to see Staraptor go, but it only JUST barely made the cut, maybe we'll see it again before too long.

Did anyone ever try out Dragalge? Because it was a pretty effective stop to Volcarona, at least the offensive one. Not to mention it hit REALLY hard, 2HKOing offensive Volcarona after a Quiver Dance with Sludge Wave. I can't say I'm TOO sad to see Volcarona go, though. It was extremely threatening, though to which archetype also depended on the set, a lot like Diancie.
 
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Fighting-types in general are going to be back to resurge this meta, as we just removed a grand total of four Fairy-types, which could both resist and hit them super effectively, Staraptor who gave them a hard time with its Scarf set, and Volcarona who used them as set-up bait. On top of that, Sableye isn't around anybody, which probably hasn't been as obvious until now.
On a serious note, I think we might see a spike in Mega-Pidgeot usage with Meruu's prediction in Fighting since it deals with the surge of Fighting-types in the tier.
 
Fighting-types in general are going to be back to resurge this meta, as we just removed a grand total of four Fairy-types, which could both resist and hit them super effectively, Staraptor who gave them a hard time with its Scarf set, and Volcarona who used them as set-up bait. On top of that, Sableye isn't around anybody, which probably hasn't been as obvious until now.
Now it's time to use the manliest Mienshao set ever (SD LO Reckless 3 attacks).
 
Surprised to see Raptor going. I am guessing with the fairy types being quick banned, less steel types and more fighting types with be used. So Bronzong will probably be pretty rare (+ it checked staraptor). Mega loppuny, gallade, and mienshao will probably be used a lot more. I am guessing mega pidgeot + crobat will get a lot of usage.

and i don't really think calling 2 council members full of shit because they had a different opinion is really appropriate lol.

not surprised altaria went. it could 6/0 stall and 6/0 offense with the proper move pool. its above average bulk + typing was insane. Its ability was god like too, giving it fairy stab return + an increase in power from the ability (on top of the stab boost).

pretty excited to see how the meta will be like in a week or so
 
Alright, hydra supremacy is back mutherflockers!

Altaria was fun to use, but a humongous POS to fight against, but I somehow steered clear of diancie and togekiss which is amazing.

And I guess Im going back to E-speed over BP on my lucario, which is nice.

And fighting was always a type to be spammed in UU, so I cant say Im hyped for their return :]
 
Still shocked that Altaria, and to an extent, Diancie went, but call it massive bias based on my own playstyle since I rarely had trouble with them, and when I did it was my own fault.

THANK FUCKING CHRIST THAT CUNT KEY IS GONE. Okay, I'm down, thanks for indulging me. Can we please never see it again? I get it, two members of the Council are full of shit, but can we please just never retest it? If I ran this dictatorship, both Thundurus and Klefki would be banned to Anything Goes and they would never see the light of day again, Prankster Thunder Wave is THAT broken, Dual Screens is just

Kinda sad to see Staraptor go, but it only JUST barely made the cut, maybe we'll see it again before too long.

Did anyone ever try out Dragalge? Because it was a pretty effective stop to Volcarona, at least the offensive one. Not to mention it hit REALLY hard, 2HKOing offensive Volcarona after a Quiver Dance with Sludge Wave. I can't say I'm TOO sad to see Volcarona go, though. It was extremely threatening, though to which archetype also depended on the set, a lot like Diancie.
I used spdef dragalge on stall back when mega sableye was around (was probably my most solid team yet but nothing can fill the gap left by mega eye), and with Dragon Tail it was a full stop to every Volcarona set out there. Paired with Zong to set up rocks and Umbreon to comfortably pass wishes to both it was a pretty solid core.

I might go back to using Mega Banette for hipster points and for that prankster thunder wave rage, double status was pretty solid back in XY. Also the only thing left in the tier with prankster Wisp :o
 
Really awesome! I wanted everything on that list gone lmao. Also two council members are full of shit? Seriously, there's no need to call out members of the council for not voting a certain way, that's just immature and ignorant. We don't want a repeat of the current situation in RU. Great job though council, this should be a funass metagame :)
 
There's also a few people, myself included, who believe access to prankster Thunder Wave promotes bad and careless playing, which is a small part of the reason Klefki is getting the boot again.
Just for curiosity's sake, can someone explain this a little further? Because I'm not very experienced in battling and I can't really imagine what is meant :(
 
Really awesome! I wanted everything on that list gone lmao. Also two council members are full of shit? Seriously, there's no need to call out members of the council for not voting a certain way, that's just immature and ignorant. We don't want a repeat of the current situation in RU. Great job though council, this should be a funass metagame :)
Could you elaborate here? What is the situation in RU?
 
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