For now we'll just dismiss Dawn Stone. Rematches are something I haven't investigated much into so I don't know the chances of getting the item (or when you can):
My issue is that its typing is not particularly impressive (good offensively, but water and grass are redundant against all the rocks and grounds for instance; mediocre defensively with you losing resistances on both ends) and the typing is just about all that's actually above average about the Lotad line.
You say that Lotad has improved since RSE, but the improvement is minor - it got some STAB moves via level-up and TM. It also suffered some negative changes - Nature Power coming later (via TM and not learnt at such an early level) and Ice Beam being a very late and optional TM. It gets Power-up Punch but nothing worth pointing out as far as moves PuP powers up go. No Leaf Blade or anything of the kind; just a late Waterfall when you don't need it as much anymore.
The fact that you have the underwhelming Lombre form to be stuck with until you're done with 7 out of the game's 8 gyms is a big deal and makes its presence in S-tier unbelievable to the point of being surreal for me, but let's assume we are patient enough to baby it all that long... What for? Ludicolo's 70/90/70 offence? What is good about it?
Water and Grass isn't very redundant. Remember - Fire-types are still somewhat prominent and they even exist in a gym. Water is still fairly effective in neutral coverage as well as Grass is rather easy to resist. Treecko also has a few more vulnerabilities too since Treecko doesn't take neutral damage from Fire-type attacks, although Grass-type attacks are what Treecko resists and such.
Nature Power loss is so-so. It would be a nice power spike but when it comes it comes I guess.
A lot of trainers use one (often quite strong) Pokemon. Slaking's ability to switch into one tough mon during an important battle and OHKO, just to switch to somebody else (maybe until next turn), is a very valuable asset. Silk Scarf-powered Giga Impact kills so many durable Pokemon in one single attack.
Most of the time a team doesn't really need cop-outs of an OHKO. Slaking is usually detrimental at this point - few times will you really need a Pokemon that OHKOes right away. Most E4 Pokemon - barring Dusclops for Phoebe, usually are set-up bait for the majority of Pokemon. I can at least agree we can consider getting it out of E.
I'd also like to point out that very few Pokemon come close to soloing the game. In X/Y, the Charizard Megas were arguably the champions of that. Slaking having consistent OHKO potential keeps it relevant to the party as soon as it evolves, and Vigoroth is a highly usable second tier until then.
I disagree. I could name a plethora of Pokemon that do fine in soloing the game once they're at least up there. Gyarados almost does it single-handed barring Norman and when it's a Magikarp. Even Charmander has eh periods for a while where Ember / Dragon Rage can't completely cut through things. I think I would be more impressed with Slaking if it wasn't a detriment every other turn. OHKOing a Pokemon is nice, but so is KOing 6 Pokemon almost simultaneously after some setup.
We've also been more sceptical towards setting up strategies in tier discussions in the recent threads. Gyarados might be able to consistently set up and sweet an entire team, but you're spending so many turns doing the setup (as a rule) that you might have as well just had individual members of your team take on select targets among the opposition. A good enough team can achieve just that, thus letting you spend less turns doing it.
Not necessarily. There are many Pokemon that can withstand hits - even those SE. I've mentioned Phoebe multiple times as an example but even Glacia has Pokemon that can withstand a hit. Most of the time you're probably taking a little less time setting up a Dragon Dance (or two) and then sweeping the entire party. Nevermind there are some Pokemon Slaking actually misses OHKOes on - Skarmory and Aggron always have Sturdy and are impossible to OHKO. I would actually be impressed if Slaking can OHKO other Pokemon like Cradily and even Phoebe's Pokemon. Just an example - a Level 50 Slaking against Dusclops can fail to OHKO Dusclops with Night Slash and Black Glasses equipped. It obviously will fail on Dusknoir. Sure Dusclops might not do crap back to Slaking for example, but Pokemon that 2HKO naturally have the advantage over Slaking.
I also want to point out that there actually is a very real possibility of a rather large level gap - I entered the Elite 4 with 5 Pokemon (one was Glalie from the Demo so it had boosted EXP and barely mattered because I didn't pick it up until Gym 8) and my team wasn't really getting up towards Level 45-47 even entering the Elite 4. The levels vary from 50s to Level 59. You can also refer to my colleague
IOS about the penalties that Slaking sometimes puts in terms of time as well.
The status of Gyarados has been more or less the same since DPPt IMHO; no significant changes in its utility since then. It's as spectacular as always when trained, and a good setup sweeper, but that switching period hurts it.
A Mega Evolution and another STAB to work with (Crunch) is a rather substantial improvement and change in utility since its arrival. The Mega actually helps overcome some of the stat discrepancy from level gaps. The switching period also can be cushioned easily - I caught Magikarp after Wattson and then proceeded to train it. It's much less of a burden for 10 levels because your team is much more capable of taking hits and dishing out damage at that point. Magikarp can easily become Gyarados right before the Move Relearner to obtain Thrash - and then it is pretty self-sufficient.
Can a case be made that Exp Share can lessen the pain of grinding up Pokemon like Slakoth/Magikarp/Abra? If all you have at that point is one other Pokemon (say, your starter), all it changes is how much switching out and in you do (you actually give the trainee less exp than you would by constant switches with the new exp mechanics)? What does everyone think?
Though I agree that a little bit of EXP Share helps (hell if we want to be serious - EXP Share is much more efficient), that unfortunately is out of my jurisdiction and is dependent on IAR and co. Were it different I would allow it - it isn't quite like Warp in Fire Emblem games (well 11). Alas...
Contributions outside of battle are valid contributions, but if it's in S-tier then it absolutely must provide combat deserving of such a high ranking (granted, the current S-tier makes Carvanha not stand out as the odd one because of some other questions mons still in). It should also take hits a bit better! Not hits that are weak or resisted, I mean, and these also really sting.
Hey man I can only justify his durability so much lol. I admit it's craptastic. I will talk to IAR, Celever, and co about it.
Yeah, I'm busy and slow, sorry about that, but I'm really surprised none of the old visitors of the tier threads have shown up to support what seems to be such an obvious argument that is much in the tradition of the tier list discussions had on the Orange Islands for the last few years.
It's cool. Shit changes. I couldn't tell you why. IOS has been feeding me some information though so I've also been looking into things like that.
A Pokemon you use for 3 gyms and drop before more challenges come in is not a Pokemon to put into A tier, especially when its special defence and speed are so low.
Rollout and Rock Polish setup strategies are very unreliable, because you lack a means to ensure good accuracy for a very long time (this time comes when Golem is best unused according to you, and I can't argue there). Your chances to land Rollout 4-5 times in a row are around 60-ish per cent; even using Focus Blast with Alakazam against physically able dark-types is a better idea (Zam would rather use Dazzling Gleam anyway, but that's beside the point). It's also terribly time-consuming to spend so much time setting up.
I don't think the comparison to Mega Mawile says anything about Golem and his myriad issues at all. Seaking and Nidoking also had the same attack stat back in RBY, does that mean they were equal? Does that mean Seaking was any good at all? I think this is the case here as well. Mega Mawile has the typing, coverage and sheer offence Geodude would dream of.
The comparison was actually because you mentioned Mega Mawile - A Pokemon that is practically nonexistent until past Norman and also has a slew of issues.
Fairy / Steel isn't bad - but it actually does rocky when it arrives. Both of its STABs, if it were to realistically get them, are NVE against Wattson. They do okay on outside trainers and some oddballs like Electrike, Meditite, and Voltorb but that's about it. Mawile is pretty dead-weight against Wattson. It also doesn't do crap to Flannery since it is even more vulnerable to Overheat than Graveler is.
You also seem to be missing some key points so I'll help outline them for you:
- Graveler (Golem) will not always be using both Rock Polish and Rollout.
- Graveler still has access to other moves (Smack Down, Rock Tomb, Magnitude, hell occasional Self-destruct).
Flannery is a good example where simply using Rollout is more advantageous. If you're deathly afraid of missing you probably could afford a X Accuracy on Turn 1 and just healing off the Overheat. I'm not saying it's a good idea; however, Graveler has the perk of bypassing Sunny Day - something that
can be a nuisance for Water-types (it isn't too likely, though).
Where we do agree on Geodude is when you say it's best not used after gym 5, possibly earlier because those Overheats really hurt the weak special defence. I just happen to think that since it's used for such a short period of time it's best not used at all. All it does is make your team weaker, both at the time it is still in use and afterwards.
Like many people have attested they used Geodude even towards Gym 6 and it barely has issues against Flannery. It's faster most of the time and the only downside is maybe missing a Rollout. Graveler survives a hit from any of the Pokemon - more if they fail to have Sunny Day in play (or it isn't Numel - Numel is the only threatening one outside of Sunny Day conditions).
Graveler's Special Defense usually isn't a major problem unless you're facing, quite frankly, the wrong types of Pokemon - these include Grass- and Water-types. Koffings won't do shit to Graveler unless they get a lucky poison off. Slugma / Torkoal requires roughly two turns to even be remotely threatening to Graveler (and especially Golem). Again - Graveler is probably safe until after Winona. It can help throughout the gym and against her - there are some Pokemon it should avoid but it will be suitable versus Swellow and does okay against Altaria. I would say that it's still usable for a while even after Winona - it's just that it becomes a little more questionable as a Graveler. Golem can actually pull itself together in normal fights - it just lacks utility in some of the important fights. This is why I'm saying it could (and maybe should) be dropped off after Winona. It can certainly stay as Golem, certainly. Just don't expect miracles against Wallace for example.
You've addressed it a good deal of times, but I didn't see proof of it being good, only of it improving since RSE, which it did a little bit - it was even more mediocre on the whole back then, though. I'd agree that Lotad is more of a water-type because Bubblebeam and Surf come much sooner than their respective grass-type alternatives.
I think it's a very good idea that you'll test them side-by-side and I'm looking forward to your comparison. I'd also like to urge you to teach the Nature Power to both via TM and see what benefits it could have. I tried that with my Grovyle but I had to test so many things that the opportunities to use Nature Power weren't as numerous as I would've wanted.
Certainly. I will teach them both Hidden Power when I get the chance because they seemed to significantly buff the attack -
http://serebii.net/attackdex-xy/naturepower.shtml
I think Zangoose's about the same it's always been, and still not quite an S. It's got no super-effective STAB against anything, it could be a bit faster as a rather fast sweeper with Power-up Punch/Swords Dance, and it could be better at taking hits. It might actually be worse in ORAS because it had Swords Dance earlier in RSE!
There are some things that helped improve Zangoose though - Shadow Claw is available very early and there are more viable coverage moves to choose from in comparison to RSE (Rock Tomb, said PuP, Aerial Ace, etc) and it also has no burden of using TMs really. I'll have IOS keep an eye on my Zangoose player and see what he has to say. At least Immunity prevents poison wear-down at the least.
Agreed on A for Absol. Have we discussed Pinsir and Meditite before as well? These potential Megas seem like good contenders for A tier as well. Not so sure about Banette however.
I haven't, but we can run through them pretty quick:
- Pinsir A is okay. The only problem is that it doesn't have Return so it has to rely on Facade until it is available. Even then I'm not sure it would quite be max happiness. Swords Dance boosted Facade / X-Scissor / Earthquake should run down the majority of trainers from when it arrives, though. Even the clutch bosses. Could still see it being B, but I lean towards it being limbo between the tiers.
- Meditite is pretty likely A. It has its STAB Fighting-type move and Huge Power requires almost no set-up. Its durability as Meditite is fixed through Eviolite which is available right near it. Hi Jump Kick is also available at Level 28 - right around the corner. Medicham has its other clutch moves too including Zen Headbutt and the elemental punches.
The only real downside I see to Meditite, aside from late arrival, is the evolution is pretty late.
Whoever ran with these two - definitely give some input.
I wasn't necessarily suggesting that Zubat matches Brawley's Pokemon in level (you can't do the Granite Cave portion of the game pre-Brawley this time after all), but these statistics are acute and very much needed in the discussion. Could you pass me a link of the page where one could run such calculations conveniently? I knew where to find it during one of the last tier discussions, possibly X/Y, but didn't bookmark it and now I don't remember where to get it anymore.
https://pokemonshowdown.com/damagecalc/
You will have to make some adjustments and also need to possibly "create" attacks (for example you won't see moves like Slash, which isn't used competitively whatsoever, in there). Anyway assuming you catch Zubat at Level 12 you have to only level it up once to obtain Wing Attack (pretty doable even through minor training). At Level 13 Zubat should 2HKO the Meditite. The worst it might face is Confusion - a possible problem, but let's remember the trainers aren't always in tip top shape of intellect. You can conveniently buy Soda Pops if necessary or Potions to help get through it.
I honestly don't see Zubat beyond B because outside of Brawly it's just... okay. STAB Wing Attack isn't bad and as Golbat it doesn't do too shabby. It learns a physical Poison-type move pretty early - which actually is nice for Golbat. Venoshock is a nice STAB move to support Poison-type attacks and it hits hard. Once a Crobat you have STAB Cross Poison through move relearner too and Acrobatics is only a couple levels more than before or available after Norman. It has some good moments versus some Pokemon, but it doesn't have an important fight where it really stands out. I guess if we want to be technical it can X-Scissor through some of Sydney's Pokemon and Acrobatics / Cross Poison through Shiftry / Cacturne / Sharpedo but honestly it's about the grasp of the straw.
I'm not calling Zubat bad - I just question its role on a team aside from "I pubstomp some trainers and occasional Pokemon and that's about it". I can at least name some advantages for Ludicolo for example.
Do you happen to know where the information on gym leaders' / important trainers' Pokemon IVs/EVs can be found while we're at it? I don't think I've seen it accessible even for the early games which should be far more hackable.
It's how it always is within the game - gym leaders' and important trainers usually have their IVs at 20 all across the board. There are some exceptions though. Elite 4 Members usually have 25 and Steven has 30. Here's a reference guide for it that was datamined before the game was released:
http://pastebin.com/dXJ5fyEm
Credits to the people who found it.
The point I was making is Zubat should still be well-prepared for Brawley and can't walk in with its 4x resistance casually expecting to win with ease. One Bulk Up on one turn, and a potion two turns later and then it's hard to say who has the advantage anymore - and I know Zubat quite as well as the Pokemon who constantly fails to win in expected favourable matchups. So if I were to judge Zubat's performance in the second gym, I'd be a 4/5 or a 3.5/5 but definitely not the perfect score, that quad-resistance considered.
It usually has a more favorable match-up than many Pokemon surrounding it. Dustox and Beautifly are about the only other two that quadruple resist Brawly's Fighting-type attacks (also Ralts but Ralts has an actual future...). Tailow has more Attack and potential Guts (doubtful if you can really get it to activate though barring maybe the Tentacool near Brawly's gym) but its durability is slightly worse in comparison to Zubat (40 HP | 30 Def for Tailow vs 40 | 35 for Zubat). The best Pokemon, ironically for being bashed so goddamn much, is usually Ralts because it bypasses Meditite's Psychic-typing with STAB Fairy and usually withstands hits pretty well. The AI is sometimes dumb enough to just try to set up Bulk Up on Ralts - conveniently what Makuhita did since somehow Machop blew up in one hit (might've been two).
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Beyond that, I will continue with my discussion on both Treecko and Lotad here:
Treecko has a slight advantage up until Bubble arrives for Lotad - then it somewhat perks more in favor for Lotad. This may change when Mega Drain arrives. To note, though, I was Level 12 with both Lotad and Treecko up to Roxanne (Poochyena was Level 11). Mega Drain takes a little more favoritism as does Lombre but we shall see the discrepancy of holding both back on their evolutions. Though it seems to favor Treecko more Lotad does enjoy having Mega Drain to hit more Pokemon and grabs Mega Drain a little sooner.
So Treecko did work. Lotad did end up assisting though because Nosepass threatened a 3HKO on my Treecko. Let us hope that Mega Drain is worth it because these 4 levels seem like a while.
Captured Geodude and Zubat. As expected - Zubat destroyed Brawly. It seriously needs a level and a non shit nature tops. Makuhita didnt do shit to it. Zubat was only Level 13-14. You can rebattle a trainer that has a Level 13 Slakoth to train Zubat. He will usually ask for a battle once you leave and re-enter the area.